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XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 02:02 AM
I am not completely sure, but I thought the .50cal was a heck of allot more powerfull then what is represented in IL2.

I spent most of my military carrer behind a .50cal, and I can honestly say the sound is whimpy compared to the "War Drum" sound the weapon really makes.

I also know from expieriance the weapon is very acurate up to 1000 meters and still maintains its punch. The rounds slow down around 1500 meters but are still very powerfull.

In all reality, if you fired all 8 .50 cal on a P-47 at a target within 500 meters, the target would be shreded beound recognition.

these pee-shooters in IL2 need a little work.

thanks for the forum.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 02:02 AM
I am not completely sure, but I thought the .50cal was a heck of allot more powerfull then what is represented in IL2.

I spent most of my military carrer behind a .50cal, and I can honestly say the sound is whimpy compared to the "War Drum" sound the weapon really makes.

I also know from expieriance the weapon is very acurate up to 1000 meters and still maintains its punch. The rounds slow down around 1500 meters but are still very powerfull.

In all reality, if you fired all 8 .50 cal on a P-47 at a target within 500 meters, the target would be shreded beound recognition.

these pee-shooters in IL2 need a little work.

thanks for the forum.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 02:09 AM
The patch should fix your .50 cal. woes....

47|FC
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-6.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 02:22 AM
Good post, and I agree with you, but this subject will go no where. All actual pilot accounts to the contrary, the developers of this sim have been totally taken in by the "spray and pray" stereotype promulgated by the Germans.

Sux, doesn't it?



<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 02:32 AM
I know someone who played beta 08 of the patch and said a P-47 can now shear the wing right off a Fw-190...I'm assuming he isn't lying,I don't think he would...

47|FC
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-6.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 02:42 AM
I have a friend who played the patch, and when this friend was playing vs another guy who was also flying a P-47 he had his P-47 ripped in half from a 1 second burst from the other guys 8 .50 cals... and that didn't happen before.

Also, a 2 second burst from a P-47 will shread a He111 now. Now the only thing that kills bombers faster is any plane with 108s, which have also been improved. According to my friend.

Clay.Pigeon


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XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 02:55 AM
Conversations with N. G. Golodnikov

Part Two. P-40 Kittyhawk and Tomahawk

The Russians thought the .50cal machineguns were so powerful that they took the wing mounted .50's off to lighten the P40. See Below :

N. G. Of course, the P-40s were better than the I-16 and the Hurricane. After the first flight, I said to myself, "Well, Kolya, finally they have given you a modern fighter."

N. G. Our Tomahawks and Kittyhawks had machine gun armaments only, the same on both models. Only large-caliber machine guns. Two synchronized [in the nose] and two in the wings. Browning 12.7mm. Powerful, reliable, good machine guns. In time, relatively soon after we received these aircraft, we began to remove the wing-mounted weapons in order to lighten the aircraft, leaving only the two synchronized guns.

A. S. Were two machine guns enough?

N. G. Yes, more than enough. I already told you how powerful they were.


Hmm, I guess the Russian pilots that flew the P40 were impressed with just 2 .50cal MG's. Imagine what 6 or 8 .50cal's could and did do.



_________________________________

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 03:21 AM
Indeed - I've yet to read a pilots account lamenting the ineffectiveness of .50 cal weapons.
The numbers can certainly show a given weapon is more effective than another (e.g. the M2 Browning not as good as some other 12.7mm and 13mm types) - but in general the .50 was more than adequate for the task.

"Killer" Caldwell (decorated Australian pilot) didn't like the 20mm installation in the Spitfire - if one jammed the yaw produced by the remaining gun made accurate shooting impossible. He had his ground crew modify an 8x.30cal Spitfire to carry 6x.50s and was most pleased with the result - until he was summoned to Melbourne and ordered to reinstall the "proper" feeble armament.

Salute

Athos

"When first under fire and you're wishful to duck, don't look nor take heed at the man that is struck, be thankful you're living, and trust to your luck, and face to your front like a soldier"
ex. Rudyard Kipling

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 04:07 AM
Athosd wrote:
- "Killer" Caldwell (decorated Australian pilot)
- didn't like the 20mm installation in the Spitfire -
- if one jammed the yaw produced by the remaining gun
- made accurate shooting impossible. He had his
- ground crew modify an 8x.30cal Spitfire to carry
- 6x.50s and was most pleased with the result - until
- he was summoned to Melbourne and ordered to
- reinstall the "proper" feeble armament.
-
- Salute
-
- Athos



This happened a lot in the RAAF http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif))

Australian crews at one stage also regularly slung four or more .50 cal under each wing of their Mitchells until the RAAF brass caught on and ordered them removed.

North American however were very impressed with the "experiment" and the official multiple .50 cal nose variant (which RAAF high command DID approve of) was the result .



for an idea why .50 cal were so effective ... compare the .50 cal mg round and the mg151/15 cannon rounds in the sig below.

<center> http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SQDLAtUWiWZ3BKw19!aryp7v3C1h1DuNwpHOOuqhlraGSyMAY KiPEOZAA1OBgsLu*Sa0UQ2my0PiFyvNkJ5K7Clsoy7yNtEvOXY nHDuPNiotpZACY2oJxw/aircraftround.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 05:07 AM
Good to know its been fixed. The .50 cals seemed to be a good weapon at the time judging by some of the stats on various weapons. Afterall, there's got to be a good reason for mounting six on them on so many different planes.

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XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 12:24 PM
They should be extrmely powerfull.. atleast against fighters.. but I hope they are not going to make them too powerfull.. meaning .50calls become stronger than for example MK108.. eight heavy machine guns would be imho ideal way to down fighters in ww2.. because they are relatively light, and carry a good punch to downanything..

____________________________________



Official Sig:



<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/vipez/shots/Vipez4.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 01:09 PM
Great news then, always thought the 50's to be weaker than what they should be. I hope also that the sound of them when you fire from the external has been improved, they sound like peas in a can when being fired

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 09:07 PM
the cal-50 are realy impressive, nerly every 109 will go down or be heavily damaged after a short burst.
The 190 can take a lot more than 109, but they are no problem (at least if you are able to score hits), so you can kill the engine, kill a wing, or saw the whole plane into pieces.
so nothing to complaine about.
All in all most of the guns are fixed in Beta8.

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XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 12:37 AM
I am so ,IL2FB that I find it hard to believe that one of the oldest and most common weapons of this century(.50cal) still in production today was modeled so lousy!


>Mabey this will help
"
The Browning Machine gun used in the Ferret was generally the L3A1 [British] or the M1919 [Australia] The gun was well liked as it was accurate and well suited to the fire supression role. My own personal recollections of the gun was that you could clean it on a Monday and fire it all week though generally the barrel would be carboned to the front barrel bearing and plug by Friday.

Generally the ammunition came in the standard british chocolate-brown steel ammunition box with the off-white web ammunition belts though towards the end of the Brownings career it was, occasionally, seen in metal link form. The metal links were of a different type to the GPMG in that the spacing between bullets was larger.

The calibre is 30.06 or 7.62mm x 63mm [NOT the NATO 7.62mm x 51mm] The Mark 4.z Ball [US M2 round with purple annulus] and G Mark 1.z Tracer [US M1 round with red tip and red annulus] rounds were used and they were loaded in the belt 1 tracer 5 Ball [IIRC] The B Mark 2.z incendiary round [US M1 with blue tip and blue annulus] was sometimes issued, usually in a 1 ball 1 incendiary loading - very spectacular at night! The annulus BTW is the british name for the primer base.




GUN, MACHINE, .30 in., BROWNING, L3 SERIES


The L3 was really a 'bastard' gun in that the bodies were generally from any of the air-cooled Browning series, except the M2, and generally still had their original markings on - though occasionally the original names were deleted by having two lines scribed through them.


L3A1 - Original fixed version used on Mark 2
L3A2 - Original Flexible version used on Mark 1
L3A3 - Modified version used on Mark 2
L3A4 - Modified version used on Mark 1

They were fitted with any available front-barrel-bearing-and-plug, except the flash-hider type as fitted on the M1919A6, though the most common type was a two piece version of that fitted to the M1919A5. The 'fixed' versions backplate was from the M1919A4 fixed version and an M1919A4 flexible version backplate was carried for use when the gun was used in the ground-mount role.

GUN, MACHINE, CALIBRE .22, BROWNING, MI


Training weapon that was never used on any Ferret.

GUN, MACHINE, CALIBRE .30, BROWNING, M2, AIRCRAFT, FIXED



Designed specifically as an aircraft weapon and the principal difference between it and earlier versions was that there was a special retracting mechanism and a solenoid sear-release mechanism.

GUN, MACHINE, CALIBRE .30, BROWNING, M2, AIRCRAFT, FLEXIBLE



This version of the M2 was fitted with spade grips for use in a flexible aircraft mount.

TRIPOD MOUNT CALIBRE, .30, M2 "

thanks for the forum

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 12:43 AM
ToP_BlackSheep wrote:
- All in all most of the guns are fixed in Beta8.

... except the peashooters, the MG151/20 and the ShVAK /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .




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XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 04:02 AM
Even with the patch I still have trouble taking out a 190 with the Thunderbolt. The 109s go down easily but I get strikes all over the 190 before (maybe) the prop stops spinning.

Maybe I am just a bad shot. Also, while the 50 is an extremely powerful weapon, I have only fired one once in a familiarization course, the 20mm and 30mm and even the 12.7 (50 cal) Russian evidently packed way more punch. I purchased "Rapid Fire" and was surprised at the research (much of it based on the U.S. Military's data published by Chin -- I think) and a new text called the "Flying Gun" has just been published in GB (I have a copy ordered) from Amazon but it won't ship for another month. The 50's big advantage was ballistic ally a flat trajectory and reliability. However, I still think it is under modeled. Also, the problems with mixed gun armament are not sufficiently modeled (in my opinion). The German MG and Cannon seem to hit at about the same place. But it is very difficulty to tell and I have not tried arcade mode.

Probably all of you have seen the following link but I will post it just in case. By the way, I have a P 35 and a couple of 1911s and think John Browning was great so I am not knocking the M2 family of heavy MGs. I would love to own a BAR.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-in.html

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 06:29 AM
I have a dvd of gun cam clip they show one clip of a us army halftrack with the 4 .50 anti aaa gun on the back and a 109 f2 or 4 flew by trying to strafe a hanger and the 4 .50 ripped off the wing and tail of the 109 hugest fireball and black smoke incrediable footage. I need to make a capture of it and host it


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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 05:23 PM
yeah i agree 50 cals are still too weak, even when all 8 are fired the damage is laughable.

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 06:47 PM
Well,I guess...I think they are certainly better than they were before. I shot off the wing and tail unit of a Fw-190A9 in one pass. Very dramatic looking.....

47|FC
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-6.jpg