PDA

View Full Version : Possible FW190 D-9 ('45) bug



XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 12:39 PM
When the leaked beta came to me, i began flying FW 190's. I started w/ the D9 '45 model, because i was told it was fater at alt, and had better high alt. performance. For a while, it seemed fine, and it did well as i had hoped.

However, i began noticing a trend.. that went as follows:

I would usually take 75% fuel, as 100% didn't seem neccesary, and 50% wouldn't last me my armament. I would always engage MW50 on the tarmack before takeoff at 0 throttle, and leave it on the rest of the sortie (as w/ all Bfs w/ MW). I would fly at 110%, and when overheat began, i would power down to 105% (as this % seemed to relieve overheat and still give high power). It seems though, that by doing this and nothing else (and never overheating for more than 30 sec.), that if I took 75% fuel, around 1/8th tank, or 50 liters, my engine would begin to burn out, as if it had been overheating for like 10 minutes.

A theory about why this is was proposed to me by a squadmate, WUAF_Toad, that perhaps what is going on is that the MW50 is infact... running out after a certain time, but not saying so (ie, the "MW50" msg still appears on the HUD), and thus... i think i still have MW50, and am flying at 110% power, when in actuality, i don't... and it's taking a toll on the engine.

Also, the FW190 should have about 30 minutes of MW50. If this is the case, is it modeled so that the MW50 HUD msg dissapears after that long?



Anyways, just concearned about this, because I would fly the '45 if I wasn't having the engine troubles that I am. I am also fully aware that i could be doing something wrong (since i've only been flying FW for roughly 2 weeks now).

Please post comments, S!

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 12:39 PM
When the leaked beta came to me, i began flying FW 190's. I started w/ the D9 '45 model, because i was told it was fater at alt, and had better high alt. performance. For a while, it seemed fine, and it did well as i had hoped.

However, i began noticing a trend.. that went as follows:

I would usually take 75% fuel, as 100% didn't seem neccesary, and 50% wouldn't last me my armament. I would always engage MW50 on the tarmack before takeoff at 0 throttle, and leave it on the rest of the sortie (as w/ all Bfs w/ MW). I would fly at 110%, and when overheat began, i would power down to 105% (as this % seemed to relieve overheat and still give high power). It seems though, that by doing this and nothing else (and never overheating for more than 30 sec.), that if I took 75% fuel, around 1/8th tank, or 50 liters, my engine would begin to burn out, as if it had been overheating for like 10 minutes.

A theory about why this is was proposed to me by a squadmate, WUAF_Toad, that perhaps what is going on is that the MW50 is infact... running out after a certain time, but not saying so (ie, the "MW50" msg still appears on the HUD), and thus... i think i still have MW50, and am flying at 110% power, when in actuality, i don't... and it's taking a toll on the engine.

Also, the FW190 should have about 30 minutes of MW50. If this is the case, is it modeled so that the MW50 HUD msg dissapears after that long?



Anyways, just concearned about this, because I would fly the '45 if I wasn't having the engine troubles that I am. I am also fully aware that i could be doing something wrong (since i've only been flying FW for roughly 2 weeks now).

Please post comments, S!

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 01:48 PM
no, the MW50 message don't disappear when you run out of it...

nothing indicate that this is the case, except that your engine will be burned out...

also, the MW50 should not be on at all time, you should not use it for more than 10 minutes without letting it rest (throttle under 101%) for five minutes...

But for the moment, it doesn't work that way, you can fly more than twenty minutes without having problems...



<center><img src=http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg></center>

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 03:57 PM
dora has 40min mw50 fuel

109 has 30min mw50 fuel

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 06:02 PM
I've had the same problems with the 44 dora, so i don't think is MW50 related. For some reason the engine burns on me.

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 06:10 PM
The D9 is too fussy and the A9 kicks the crap out of it. Fly the A9 and don't worry about the overheat, the plane never heats up on me, you just have to know a couple of tricks.

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 06:34 PM
I've never had this problem, the engine burn out you're talking about in the Doras. I don't know how to tell you to avoid it though, because I don't know how I might be treating it differently than you, with a couple of minor exceptions. The only times I run it over 100% is when I absolutely need the power, and I don't keep the MW50 engaged from the word go...I engage MW50 after I reach 110% throttle, but only if I feel I need it. While that might not be the "correct" or "accepted" method of use, the only time I have engine problems in any of the 190s is when there's bullet holes in their engines.

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 07:02 PM
snooopp? thats totally diff that what i was told about mw50, your supposed to activate it below 50per throttle, you can leave it on but mw50 wouldnt run unless your where at 101 per and higher.. below that it would be ok.. i havent had issues at all, but i do fly the 109, might be diff

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 07:06 PM
LOL...It's different than what I've been told too, but it works for me in the 190s. I know way back when, I first flew the 109, I ran it up the same way I run the 190s, and I blew the engine. Never had a problem running the 190s this way though.

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 07:36 PM
yes, the MW50 work like that, you engage it at idle, and it is really in use only if you exceed 100%...

but there are other things you should know, especially the maximum time you can stay at more than 100%...

Once you run out of MW50, you must disengage it, or you will burn your engine...

But even if running out of MW50, if it is disengaged, you can exceed 100% without special problems...

But as we said, the amount of MW50 is enough for an entire mission... Except if you are always flying at more than 100% power throttle...

And flying a D9 always at full throttle is a bad way to fly it... Like any other plane, except the me262...

<center><img src=http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg></center>

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 10:05 PM
When I was doing speed overheat testing some time ago I came upon this same situation, I would start with 100% fuel and be doing stuff on 8X speed.

I never tested it specifically to confirm my suspicions, but the conclusion I made was that MW50 on the FW190D9'45 lasts for 1/2 the full fuel load, then your engine goes caput. No warning that you are out of MW50.

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 10:15 PM
the new doras are really sweet, but Hero has a good point. The CEM changes with every patch and we are given few details about what works and what doesn't.

How did the real MW50 work? Was there a gauge?

How does this one work? I have also heard you got to reduce to under 50% throttle to engage. But reports here are all over the board.

help 1c!

uhoh7

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 11:43 PM
aside from one poster, i think it's pretty clear that the MW50 is the problem i was having. That being said, i will start quality testing my theory of the matter, and flying below 101% when possible.

I think the biggest thing here, is that Oleg really needs to make it so that when you are INFACT out of MW50, the message on the HUD dissapears... otherwise there is no way of knowhing if you are out of it.

Also: once you run out, and run at 110%, you still won't get "Overheat" msg long enough to burn out your engine... it'll just ... "Happen".

I truely hope this is fixed, as i love the D9, and would much rather fly the (45) w/ out having to be picky when flying.

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 12:15 AM
What you really need is a message that MW50 bottle is empty. There is a guage that doesn't work, i'm wondering if that is the MW50 pressure guage.

The engine damage isn't from overheating, it is from detonation. The engine doesn't have an auto shutoff for the MW50 selection, so the engine is set for MW50 (higher MAP) but there is none left so the engine goes. I do not think that adjusting the throttle should help when you run out of MW50, all that should help is to turn it off.

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 12:21 AM
MW50 doesnt kick in until 101per engine or higher, so if its out and you are below 101 you have no issues...

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 01:46 AM
All secondary boost systems are engaged from 100% in FB. I don't see why it would be different with the MW50.

Maybe u should fly at 99% throttle most of the times.



-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 04:04 AM
"MW50 doesnt kick in until 101per engine or higher, so if its out and you are below 101 you have no issues... "

"All secondary boost systems are engaged from 100% in FB. I don't see why it would be different with the MW50."

While mostly true, these statements are not quite entirely true.

With some planes like LA5F and P51 these statements are entirely true, the boost message/effects are linked to the throttle and cannot be engaged/disengaged seperate of moving the throttle.

With planes where the "w" key is used to engage/disengage the boost system the message and *some* effects remain, independant of the throttle setting.

For example I just finished a test of the FW190D9'45 and found that while toggling the MW50 while at 98% throttle had no effect whatsoever on power (no change in engine sound, no measureable change in speed from a stable state), it did result in a huge change in the MAP guage (not really important, just shows that the guage does not read properly under those conditions), but more importantly it changed the amount of heat gemerated by the engine, i.e. at 100m and constant speed 98% throttle with MW50 engaged the engine overheated, disengaging the MW50 stopped the overheating.

So although MW50 does not create more power below 100% throttle, it does create more heat, and also dramatically changes the MAP guage reading.

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 02:25 PM
Looks to me, like no matter how you slice it, there is most likely an issue with the D9 '45. I have started cutting back to 100% throttle to cool, and have yet to have my situation reoccur, however i have yet to use a full tank of gas in roughly 5 sorties thus far, online.

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 07:23 PM
bump

XyZspineZyX
11-26-2003, 12:30 PM
bump.

XyZspineZyX
11-29-2003, 02:43 PM
I did more testing: and it seems to me that there is a definite issue with the MW50 HUD indicator (and lack of operational gauge in cockpit) of the FW190 D9 1945.

After a certain period of time, if you use MW50 moderately, you will eventaully run out it seems. However, once you've run out, the HUD message will still show MW50 as being engaged. This means, that there is no way of knowing when exactally to power down: as it is neccesary to fly at under 101% when there is no MW50 on the '45 model, to keep from burning the engine (as it is currently modeled). This really needs to be looked at, or at least replied to by Oleg. If not, i will just send him an e-mail.

If anyone else can help me confirm this, it would be greatly appreciate. Thx folks, and thanks for the amazing sim Oleg.

XyZspineZyX
11-29-2003, 06:29 PM
does the amount for mw50 vary with fuel load?
or do u always have a full tank(s) for mw50?


whineingu /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-29-2003, 10:46 PM
I had this happen to me last night. I took a D9 late up with 100% fuel and at about 30-40% fuel left the engine starting making a grinding noise. I used MW50 for about half the flight. Upon disengaging MW50 no additional damage occured. Definatly seems like the problem is MW50 running out. Unfortunatly the MW50 guage is inoperative and the hud message never goes away. I guess all we can do for now is "guesstimate" how much we have left /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif .

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I/JG1 Oesau (http://jg1-oesau.org) is recruiting. Join us!

Stab.I/JG1Death at HL, Maj_Death at Ubi.com

At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
11-30-2003, 02:46 PM
My gripe precisely: Hope Oleg and 1C take a look at this. If i don't get a response from them, i'll try to send it to Oleg sometime next week.

XyZspineZyX
12-01-2003, 08:50 AM
Yawn: Bump.

Oleg's interest in this blantant error would be nice.

XyZspineZyX
12-01-2003, 08:59 AM
Salute

If you can run the 190D9 at 105% power and MW50 for an indefinite period, after running at 110% power till over heat, then something is wrong with the modelling.

Any of these planes should have to open rads, and reduce throttle below 100% if they get overheating, in order to reduce temperature.

Merely reducing throttle to 105% should not do it, no matter whether MW50 is being used or not.

This is clearly annother example of the 190's overmodelling, in addition to the roll rate at high speeds.


RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
12-01-2003, 11:52 AM
erh√¬∂hte ladedruck system was prefer before mw50 system,

it gives dora same performance as with mw50, but was easier to install

it was test by 190 both boost system,

the test say erh√¬∂hte ladedruck, was better boost system

erh√¬∂hter ladedruck could 10 min use safe,
same time too mw50, but that mean not, that the engine will short thereafter damage



dora rollrate is to good highspeed, but like k84 and many other plane

she is not the only, with to good highspeed rollrate

but therefore is dora little undermodell from speed sealevel,

dora data say, with erh√¬∂hten ladedruck and without bombrack 621km/h sealevel


Would prefer dora with 621km/h sealevel in fb, therefor less rollrate at highspeed



at important Dogfight speed 400km/h ias,

has 190 2,5 time better rollrate as p51

from naca test

p51 400km/h 65 degree

190 400km/h 160 degree

but p51 has 110 degee rollrate 400km/h ias in fb,

so, is p51 too overmodell by rollrate



Message Edited on 12/01/0310:36PM by Skalgrim

WUAF_Co_Hero
01-13-2004, 06:02 AM
Bumping this from about a month ago. I don't want to se this going unnoticed...

The issue is the same w/ the late BF's, wherein there is no real way of knowing when the MW50 has ran out..

Build a man a fire, keep him warm for a day...

Set a man on fire, keep him warm for the rest of his life.

JaBo_HH--Gotcha
01-13-2004, 07:52 AM
old issue indeed. Just fits into the FB:FW190 debacle. Somehow the plane is seriously spoiled.
- Engine (inconsistent MW50 functionality if compared to BF109s)
- Damage Model (simplified)
- the "unnameable" issue
etc.

and one I am not sure off but has anyone tried the early FW190s with underwing tanks ?
They can't fire noseguns, regardless of the fact whether you have bombs loaded or not.
I think there're numerous more issues open with this birdie...

butch2k
01-13-2004, 09:00 AM
Engaging/disengaging MW-50 is distinct from running out of it.
IRL you could activate MW-50 with the empty tank and ruin the engine, the MW-50 system was activated through a switch (that's what mean engaged i.e the system will work if throttle is pushed beyond 100%). If activated MW-50 was send to the blower when throttle went past 100%, if not the engine ran at higher boost pressure but w/o the benefit associated with the use of MW-50.
Once activated the only mean to determine whether you were running out of MW-50 was the MW-50 pressure gauge.

A.K.Davis
01-13-2004, 10:16 AM
So why does the boost pressure rise when MW-50 is activated, but throttle is less then 100%? I've never understood this.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

butch2k
01-13-2004, 10:50 AM
Pressure is taken at tank level, "engaging" the MW-50 by pressing W pressurize the tank readying it for delivery. A solenoid valve is activated by the throttle when it go past 100%, actualy delivering MW-50 in the blower.
Engaging and actual delivery are two different things, it's like having a car's engine running and actualy moving. One being a prerequesite for the other.

A.K.Davis
01-13-2004, 11:32 AM
Ah, I see. Thanks.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

kubanloewe
01-13-2004, 01:01 PM
The biggest BUG on this 190‚¬īs is the outmitted Propeller in Reviview http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

its an old Bug but never corrected...http://mitglied.lycos.de/kubanskiloewe/ubootsig.jpg

"Finde den Feind und schiesse ihn ab alles andere ist Unsinn"
Rittmeister Freiherrr Manfred von Richthofen

Fillmore
01-13-2004, 04:18 PM
"Once activated the only mean to determine whether you were running out of MW-50 was the MW-50 pressure gauge."

either that guage doesn't work or i'm looking at the wrong one in the Dora'45.

WUAF_Co_Hero
01-14-2004, 03:38 AM
It doesn't, and you're not... That's precisely the issue at hand. The MW50 gauge in both the Dora '45 and the 109 K-4 are non-functional... I just think it's rediculous that there hasn't been a formal explanation about this issue from Oleg... at least a "We'll get right on it" or something.

Build a man a fire, keep him warm for a day...

Set a man on fire, keep him warm for the rest of his life.