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View Full Version : Ineffectivness of some AT weapons



XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 11:59 AM
"...The lighter, more compact and faster-firing MK 103 used a hybrid gas+recoil system and was belt-fed. Various AP rounds were used, but the most effective was the Hartkernmunition, which had a penetrating core of tungsten carbide sheathed in a light-alloy shell with a sharply-pointed profile. This could penetrate 75-90 mm / 300 m / 90 degrees (depending on the type of armour), dropping to 42-52 mm when impacting at 60 degrees.

The remaining German guns were all adaptations of ground guns. The first was the 37 mm BK 3,7, a modified version of the FlaK 18 AA gun firing the same 37x263B ammunition. This meant that it was bulky, heavy and slow-firing by comparison with the NS-37, for example. It also remained clip-fed, with a maximum capacity of just 12 rounds. It mainly fired Hartkernmunition ammo, capable of penetrating up to 140 mm / 100 m / 90 degrees although this was halved at a striking angle of 60 degrees..."

( http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm)

I don´t know but I can not destroy T-34 (76mm) with Fw equipped with MK103 even from the rear. Also, AI Henschels can not destroy T-34s with MK101 or even Bk3,7. T-34 had good shaped, but not very thick armour (some 5cm front and turret sides).
On the other hand, I can destroy PzIII with ShvaK equipped fighter, or lightest Russian tanks with MG151/20. Or the new gun DMG model after the patch will do it, or the armor on T34 is somehow coded too thick.


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"The picture repeats itself when operations, which began with great intent and local successes, degenerated into senseless, wild hammering at fixed front-line positions once they encounter initial heavy losses and unforeseen situations. This incomprehensible phenomenon appears again and again. But, even in extremis, the Russian is never logical; he falls back on his natural instinct, and the nature of the Russian is to use mass, steamroller tactics, and adherence to given objectives without regard to changing situations."

German 9th Army report after repulsing the Soviet offensive "Mars" in Rzhev bulge, December 1942.

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 11:59 AM
"...The lighter, more compact and faster-firing MK 103 used a hybrid gas+recoil system and was belt-fed. Various AP rounds were used, but the most effective was the Hartkernmunition, which had a penetrating core of tungsten carbide sheathed in a light-alloy shell with a sharply-pointed profile. This could penetrate 75-90 mm / 300 m / 90 degrees (depending on the type of armour), dropping to 42-52 mm when impacting at 60 degrees.

The remaining German guns were all adaptations of ground guns. The first was the 37 mm BK 3,7, a modified version of the FlaK 18 AA gun firing the same 37x263B ammunition. This meant that it was bulky, heavy and slow-firing by comparison with the NS-37, for example. It also remained clip-fed, with a maximum capacity of just 12 rounds. It mainly fired Hartkernmunition ammo, capable of penetrating up to 140 mm / 100 m / 90 degrees although this was halved at a striking angle of 60 degrees..."

( http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm)

I don´t know but I can not destroy T-34 (76mm) with Fw equipped with MK103 even from the rear. Also, AI Henschels can not destroy T-34s with MK101 or even Bk3,7. T-34 had good shaped, but not very thick armour (some 5cm front and turret sides).
On the other hand, I can destroy PzIII with ShvaK equipped fighter, or lightest Russian tanks with MG151/20. Or the new gun DMG model after the patch will do it, or the armor on T34 is somehow coded too thick.


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"The picture repeats itself when operations, which began with great intent and local successes, degenerated into senseless, wild hammering at fixed front-line positions once they encounter initial heavy losses and unforeseen situations. This incomprehensible phenomenon appears again and again. But, even in extremis, the Russian is never logical; he falls back on his natural instinct, and the nature of the Russian is to use mass, steamroller tactics, and adherence to given objectives without regard to changing situations."

German 9th Army report after repulsing the Soviet offensive "Mars" in Rzhev bulge, December 1942.

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 01:45 PM
The only way I know of to kill a T-34 or any other russian tank is from above and behind aiming just behind the turret. And even then only the Ju-87G can pull it off agaisnt a T-34. On the other hand, the Panzer IVF2 can be killed from any direction with a 37mm russian gun. I'm not sure if this is a problem with the guns, or the tanks. I'll run a quick test to find out.

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As we all know, the Soviet Union had too many fighter pilots during WW2. So Stalin's scientists came up with a brillient way to solve this problem. They would make some of their pilots fly British made Hurricanes. The Hurricane was an uber flying coffin. It was designed to maximize pilot kills by providing nothing but fabric and a few wooden spars around the cockpit. This setup prevented the pilot from escaping easily while at the same time not interfering with enemy bullets and shrapnel trying to pass through it. The rest of the Hurricanes structure was designed to ricochet bullets and shrapnel into the cockpit. And thanks to the cockpits superb design, all of them would pass through the cockpit and the pilot inside with little difficulty. Of course the Hurricane's designers didn't stop there. In order for the Hurricane to become a flying coffin, they had to make it easy to shoot. They did this by making the Hurricane the slowest monoplane fighter in use at the time and even gave it a very bulky shape so that it would be easy to spot and hit. The final feature of the Hurricane was its ability to bury or cremate itself. And because it was made of biodegradable materials, the Hurricane was environmentally friendly after it buried itself. Because of these brillient features, the Hurricane was a perfect flying coffin and helped the Soviets solve the pilot surplus they were suffering.
http://www.bestanimations.com/Humans/Skulls/Skull-06.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 02:32 PM
Done testing it, it is a problem with some of the tanks. The Ju 87G can kill a panzer IV just as easily as an IL2 3M. And the IL2 3M had a miserable time trying to kill the T-34. The T-34 was only killible from above and behind at a 45 degree angle or more. The Panzer IV was killable from any direction except the front at most angles (if the angle is too high the round does nothing, which is realistic). Even the 23mm on the 1942 model IL2's could kill the panzer IV, although they could only do it from above and behind like the Ju-87G and IL2-3M had to do against the T-34. I also tried the Fw 190A8 with MK103 gunpods, the MK103 failed all tests except one. It succesfully destroyed a single Panzer in a head on attack (it's the only gun that succeeded in a frontal attack) but failed in all other attacks. I consider that kill to be the result of blind luck. I was unable to reproduce that result.

----------------------------------------
I/JG1 Oesau (http://jg1-oesau.org) is recruiting. Join us!

Stab.I/JG1Death at HL, Maj_Death at Ubi.com

As we all know, the Soviet Union had too many fighter pilots during WW2. So Stalin's scientists came up with a brillient way to solve this problem. They would make some of their pilots fly British made Hurricanes. The Hurricane was an uber flying coffin. It was designed to maximize pilot kills by providing nothing but fabric and a few wooden spars around the cockpit. This setup prevented the pilot from escaping easily while at the same time not interfering with enemy bullets and shrapnel trying to pass through it. The rest of the Hurricanes structure was designed to ricochet bullets and shrapnel into the cockpit. And thanks to the cockpits superb design, all of them would pass through the cockpit and the pilot inside with little difficulty. Of course the Hurricane's designers didn't stop there. In order for the Hurricane to become a flying coffin, they had to make it easy to shoot. They did this by making the Hurricane the slowest monoplane fighter in use at the time and even gave it a very bulky shape so that it would be easy to spot and hit. The final feature of the Hurricane was its ability to bury or cremate itself. And because it was made of biodegradable materials, the Hurricane was environmentally friendly after it buried itself. Because of these brillient features, the Hurricane was a perfect flying coffin and helped the Soviets solve the pilot surplus they were suffering.
http://www.bestanimations.com/Humans/Skulls/Skull-06.gif

Message Edited on 07/01/0308:35AM by Maj_Death

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 02:45 PM
dobre den Jurinko
my apologies for a small hijack but my question is pointed at maj death.
if the hurri was so poor as in your sig why did its pilots love it so much and how come squadrons like No1 absolutley mauled the luftwaffe in the battle of france for the loss of only two pilots during the ,when faced with vastley superior numbers?
maybe its not the turd you seem to think it is?
or is this jg1 humour?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
G-BPDU
http://www.southernflightcentre.com/warrior-s.jpg

I fly this!!

http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk
No601-Squadron Auxiliary Air Force/tea boy

Message Edited on 07/01/0301:46PM by mothyp

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 05:17 PM
Hurricanes were used as bomber destroyers during the battle of britain, a role that they excelled in. In a Hurricane vs Bf 109 or Bf 110 match, the Hurricane would be the loser assuming comperable pilot skills. But my sig is only in regards to FB. And I wrote it because too many people whine about the hurricane being some sort of super plane. I think its one of the worst planes in FB.

----------------------------------------
I/JG1 Oesau (http://jg1-oesau.org) is recruiting. Join us!

Stab.I/JG1Death at HL, Maj_Death at Ubi.com

As we all know, the Soviet Union had too many fighter pilots during WW2. So Stalin's scientists came up with a brillient way to solve this problem. They would make some of their pilots fly British made Hurricanes. The Hurricane was an uber flying coffin. It was designed to maximize pilot kills by providing nothing but fabric and a few wooden spars around the cockpit. This setup prevented the pilot from escaping easily while at the same time not interfering with enemy bullets and shrapnel trying to pass through it. The rest of the Hurricanes structure was designed to ricochet bullets and shrapnel into the cockpit. And thanks to the cockpits superb design, all of them would pass through the cockpit and the pilot inside with little difficulty. Of course the Hurricane's designers didn't stop there. In order for the Hurricane to become a flying coffin, they had to make it easy to shoot. They did this by making the Hurricane the slowest monoplane fighter in use at the time and even gave it a very bulky shape so that it would be easy to spot and hit. The final feature of the Hurricane was its ability to bury or cremate itself. And because it was made of biodegradable materials, the Hurricane was environmentally friendly after it buried itself. Because of these brillient features, the Hurricane was a perfect flying coffin and helped the Soviets solve the pilot surplus they were suffering.
http://www.bestanimations.com/Humans/Skulls/Skull-06.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 05:41 PM
thank you for your reply major
if you ever get the chance read a book by paul richey called fighter pilot,its his auto biography of the abttle of france (he was a pilot in No1 squadron)it has certainley opend my eyes to the hurricane battle performance, no1 which was an exceptionally well trained squadron ! and not all squadrons faired so well but in one stunning passage it recounts of a dog fight between 5 hurris and numerous me110s,the author was actually shot down in the engagement but for the loss of one hurri (his) they downed 10 me110 all confirmed by the local gendarmerie.
i dont have the jg number to hand as im at work but it was hushed up in gemrany as the casualities were part of a top jg(may have been stoller)???


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
G-BPDU
http://www.southernflightcentre.com/warrior-s.jpg

I fly this!!

http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk
No601-Squadron Auxiliary Air Force/tea boy

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 06:21 PM
but Soviets didn´t regarded Hurricane too much... Stalin itself told: "Eti Kharrikejni - prosto govno!" (these Hurricanes - simply a sh*t!). When they got P40s, they liked it much more. And the mortality of Soviet pilots was highest in Hurricanes.

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"The picture repeats itself when operations, which began with great intent and local successes, degenerated into senseless, wild hammering at fixed front-line positions once they encounter initial heavy losses and unforeseen situations. This incomprehensible phenomenon appears again and again. But, even in extremis, the Russian is never logical; he falls back on his natural instinct, and the nature of the Russian is to use mass, steamroller tactics, and adherence to given objectives without regard to changing situations."

German 9th Army report after repulsing the Soviet offensive "Mars" in Rzhev bulge, December 1942.

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 12:56 PM
i guess though in 41/42 the hurri was very out of date and the soviets maybe didnt fly the hurri in the correct role for the time period.i do believe in the same period the RAF were using the hurri far more for ground attack than air to air whilst being covered by spits/p40.
after all a hurri vs a gustav or even a fredriech was grossly mismatched.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
G-BPDU
http://www.southernflightcentre.com/warrior-s.jpg

I fly this!!

http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk
No601-Squadron Auxiliary Air Force/tea boy