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View Full Version : Reasons for Blue Dominance - the Poll



Jagdklinger
09-08-2005, 02:53 AM

Tvrdi
09-08-2005, 03:03 AM
voted for 1..but I would vote also for 3 If i could....

neural_dream
09-08-2005, 03:04 AM
what blue dominance?

EURO_Snoopy
09-08-2005, 05:40 AM
Reasons for Blue Dominance

A self destructive philosophy adopted by some red players, there are also blue counterparts who would propose the same poll but claim red dominance.

Collectively known as bollocks

MEGILE
09-08-2005, 05:41 AM
the blue mantra is "we win because we are better"

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

and not because ie. they can climb over 30m/s

HotelBushranger
09-08-2005, 08:09 AM
Which they can! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

fordfan25
09-08-2005, 10:04 AM
all of the above.

LEBillfish
09-08-2005, 10:08 AM
lol....I take it this assumes "Blue" are "German" planes and groups.....

Try flying Japanese Army Air Corps some time, see how well you poll flies then. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Xiolablu3
09-08-2005, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by EURO_Snoopy:
Reasons for Blue Dominance

A self destructive philosophy adopted by some red players, there are also blue counterparts who would propose the same poll but claim red dominance.

Collectively known as bollocks

Nah m8, Blue DOES have an advantage on many many historical maps.

I'm not whining, I fly blue a lot and prefer it, but if the red team is down on players then I will not join blue and make the teams worse.

Although I DID find out about F6 the other day after not knowing anything about it. Hence I am not bounced as much on servers that allow it, wondering where they came from http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

With blues big cannons if this happens when you are red you are dead after one pass.

If you ARE blue you can laugh at the tiny effect of a fast pass with the 50 cals, turn around and shoot him down http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (unless hes in a Spitfire)


LEBillfish - By Jap Army Air Corp do you mean Zeros vs Wildcats and P40s? If so I do very well in Zeros and Ki61's

Kuna15
09-08-2005, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
what blue dominance? (sixth option)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

LeadSpitter_
09-08-2005, 01:06 PM
its all about winning the highspeed manueverability fight, as well as low speed turn fight where the majority of the game takes place also the bnz ability to kill in a one sec burst everytime rather then 2-3 passes.

Plus some ac are bleeding E like the 3.04 spitfire and 3.0 corsair and ki84, then theres the low stall and insta rubber band recovery with extremely low E bleed.

NorrisMcWhirter
09-08-2005, 01:08 PM
Oh, I dunno. I killed two K4s with less than 1sec .50s burst in the track I posted in the 109 DM thread.

And that was from almost dead 6.

Ta,
Norris

Von_Rat
09-08-2005, 01:19 PM
blue dominance??????

what blue dominance?

50 cals work fine for me on one pass, learn to shoot.

LeadSpitter_
09-08-2005, 01:31 PM
keep telling yourselfs that vonrat http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Count the times how we are able to survive 2-3 passes from more then one aircraft.

Kuna15
09-08-2005, 01:48 PM
I can repeat (obvious by now) that .50s are devastating when one is shooting at aircraft profile when aircraft is making an evasive turn etc. One pass from dead six on high speed (small a-c profile) is highy unlikely to destroy aircraft, although he may be considerably damaged.

.50s will be IMO more effective from dead six once when they do get synchronised.(full stream of bullets)

And yes... about low alt (turnfight), I am still able to wax the tail of any Bf-109 good in LA series. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Jetbuff
09-08-2005, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by EURO_Snoopy:
Reasons for Blue Dominance

A self destructive philosophy adopted by some red players, there are also blue counterparts who would propose the same poll but claim red dominance.

Collectively known as bollocks
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

It absolutely dumbfounds me when people claim any systematic bias in FB. There are errors here and there sure, but they are neither significant enough to overcome good piloting/tactics nor are they consistent enough to favour one side over the other.

What's worse is people who continue to rant about issues that have been answered, point-blank by Oleg. Sure the MG151/20 error was an exception where it turned out Oleg was wrong but it is one of the very few out there and was corrected. Just an example, look at the people still propagating the myth of the undamageable 190, even though Oleg clearly states here: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m...761004943#9761004943 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/8371080943/r/9761004943#9761004943) that there has been no change to the 190's DM.


Oleg Maddox wrote:
5. DM in 4.01 had not changes. So the destruction is the same as in the past. Simply programmer forgot to uncheck in code visual effects (fire, etc) during tunings. It is come back in 4.02. But I will repeat DM as it is had not changes - you may kill the plane absolutely the same as in in the past.

Grey_Mouser67
09-08-2005, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EURO_Snoopy:
Reasons for Blue Dominance

A self destructive philosophy adopted by some red players, there are also blue counterparts who would propose the same poll but claim red dominance.

Collectively known as bollocks
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

It absolutely dumbfounds me when people claim any systematic bias in FB. There are errors here and there sure, but they are neither significant enough to overcome good piloting/tactics nor are they consistent enough to favour one side over the other.

What's worse is people who continue to rant about issues that have been answered, point-blank by Oleg. Sure the MG151/20 error was an exception where it turned out Oleg was wrong but it is one of the very few out there and was corrected. Just an example, look at the people still propagating the myth of the undamageable 190, even though Oleg clearly states here: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m...761004943#9761004943 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/8371080943/r/9761004943#9761004943) that there has been no change to the 190's DM.


Oleg Maddox wrote:
5. DM in 4.01 had not changes. So the destruction is the same as in the past. Simply programmer forgot to uncheck in code visual effects (fire, etc) during tunings. It is come back in 4.02. But I will repeat DM as it is had not changes - you may kill the plane absolutely the same as in in the past. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have discovered a new brand of philosophy...I'll name it Olegism...the epistomology is "what Oleg says is"...my reality has changed forever!

All sarcasm aside, there are errors in code and I expect them. I never did a statistical study and the AI are different now so a direct comparison is difficult to make, but I am convinced that my Fw down/sortie is lower offline than it was using the same aircraft...no doubt in my mind because I mentally keep track of the number of kills/sortie and they dropped with this last patch against the Fw...if it is not the DM, then it might be the HMG, syncing, power, effects from belting etc...but something definitely changed and a I will rely on my experience and what I see, hear etc..before what I'm told when it contradicts my other inputs.

Xiolablu3
09-08-2005, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
what blue dominance?

The blue dominance that sees the blue team at least 80% of the time, outnumber the reds because its obviously so much easier to fly blue. If it wasnt then everyone wouldnt migrate to blue.

They want the biggest advantage, thats understandable, but its no good for the game in the long run.

Just come off warclouds, flew once blue, 5 kills died once as blue in a FW190D before I was kicked, (guess it was for ping)

Then I flew red, 0 kills 3 deaths, 2 from being caught as I ran from 2 and 3 blue planes,
Once going at FULL speed in a spit chasing a 109, then a 190 booms in and kills me in one pass. Always outnumbered because it was around 20 blue - 14 red in players. (like it always is)

If you cant see that blue has an advantage then you must just be thick or something.

And Kuna, I am taking Western Front here, not Eastern so the LA isnt relevant.

Von_Rat
09-08-2005, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
keep telling yourselfs that vonrat http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Count the times how we are able to survive 2-3 passes from more then one aircraft.

i was refering to the fact that when i shoot 50 cals i have no problem killing lw planes.

if your surviving multi passes by 50 cal armed planes, they must be rotten shots or your a great dodger.

Xiolablu3
09-08-2005, 07:45 PM
thats rubbish, you can survave LOADS of passes from .50 cals, specially B&Z passes.

I often survive until their ammo runs out in a Fw190 then turn around and chase them home.

Von_Rat
09-08-2005, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
thats rubbish, you can survave LOADS of passes from .50 cals, specially B&Z passes.

I often survive until their ammo runs out in a Fw190 then turn around and chase them home.

ok lets go on warclouds, ill get a p51 you fly a fw,,give me one pass without dodging,, like i suprised bounced you. and we'll see if i put you out of fight or not.

even if i blow the first pass we'll see if you can "SURVIVE LOADS OF PASSES" and then chase me home, i think not.

96th_Nightshifter
09-08-2005, 09:23 PM
Not sure if anyone has already said this but I think it has something to do with the fact that Blue has less of a choice of planes to fly so therefore they become more skilled in them due to flying them constantly whereas th RED team has a lot of choices so have average skills in a lot of planes as opposed to higher skills in fewer planes like blue team. Blue (fighters) basically fly 109 and 190's and the varients majority of the time.
I could be way off on this but it's just my opinion.

WOLFMondo
09-09-2005, 02:22 AM
Thats just too simple a reason. But probably very true.

Jagdklinger
09-09-2005, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
Thats just too simple a reason. But probably very true.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

neural_dream
09-09-2005, 03:43 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I am talking Western Front here, not Eastern so the LA isnt relevant.
I thought the thread was for the whole series. I didn't know it was for Warclouds_WF. Unfortunately i can't find the Wins-Losses in this one. But about some other popular servers at the moment:
ZvW: Blue 61 - 42
greatergreen: Blue 146 - 80
UK-dedicated1: Red 53 - 31
334th: Blue 10 - 9
=AFJ=Dedicated: Blue 49 - 43

These stats tell me that greatergreen is either preferred by better blue pilots or the missions are in their favour. And that's all. I don't see any dominance except if you only play greatergreen. Still, it would be interesting to have stats about warclouds_wf.

Badsight.
09-09-2005, 04:43 AM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
It absolutely dumbfounds me when people claim any systematic bias in FB. There are errors here and there sure, but they are neither significant enough to overcome good piloting/tactics nor are they consistent enough to favour one side over the other.

What's worse is people who continue to rant about issues that have been answered, point-blank by Oleg. Sure the MG151/20 error was an exception where it turned out Oleg was wrong but it is one of the very few out there and was corrected. Just an example, look at the people still propagating the myth of the undamageable 190, even though Oleg clearly states here: that there has been no change to the 190's DM.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Oleg Maddox wrote:
5. DM in 4.01 had not changes. So the destruction is the same as in the past. Simply programmer forgot to uncheck in code visual effects (fire, etc) during tunings. It is come back in 4.02. But I will repeat DM as it is had not changes - you may kill the plane absolutely the same as in in the past. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>oh man , FB isnt at all accurate in some areas , lets not gather a circle-jerk of "praise FB"

& the 190 & 109 DM may not have changed , but their resistance to certian guns has

Badsight.
09-09-2005, 04:45 AM
how many threads did you see like this when the FW was utter cr4p & the Bf-109 sucked at TnB ?

its weird how the pendulum swings

Xiolablu3
09-09-2005, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
thats rubbish, you can survave LOADS of passes from .50 cals, specially B&Z passes.

I often survive until their ammo runs out in a Fw190 then turn around and chase them home.

ok lets go on warclouds, ill get a p51 you fly a fw,,give me one pass without dodging,, like i suprised bounced you. and we'll see if i put you out of fight or not.

even if i blow the first pass we'll see if you can "SURVIVE LOADS OF PASSES" and then chase me home, i think not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


This wouldnt prove ANYTHING. (Except your ego) The pilots Im talking about could have been awful, new people.

The fact is you could kill me MUCH easier with big Luftwaffe cannons on the first pass, and so could these people. Thats ALL thats being debated. Not how great u are with .50 cal.


Neural Dream, UK dedicated contains A LOT of Russian maps. SO that is not counted in MY argument. Therefore blue wins every one of those Western Front servers.

I am just talking about Western Front, I know an La7 can compete very well with the LW planes. (without having to B&Z and have height EVERY time.)


When I am talking I just mean western front, just to clarify.

I dont wanna start arguments here, I think I have and I dont mean to be argumentative, this is just my opinion and what I see when I fly BOTH sides (in the admittedly short time of around 2 months of flying online).

WOLFMondo
09-09-2005, 06:23 AM
Blue also tends to dominte cause the teams are usually stacked.

This means n00bs like me have to fly red and I suck flying red planes.

Jumoschwanz
09-09-2005, 07:03 AM
Since 4.01 came out, for the first time in the sim's history more fly Axis/blue online than Allied.
And also when Pacific Fighters came out, everyone quit making servers and maps for the eastern front, so plane choice for Red was limited more to American and British planes than it was for much of the sims history online.

The "dominance" of the blue teams that fly axis is surely due to the fact that they often have many more pilots flying around who swoop down from wherever they are on a map when they see tracers somewhere. And thus also they have more buddies to get them out of trouble in jams and such.

Give the average online pilot a good turning craft with big cannons and they will flock to it like lemmings. Right now this great turning craft is the 109 series of axis fighters.

In past patches of IL2 and FB many planes have had their turn, most allied though. The La5fn and Yak3 in the original Il2 and early FB, the HurriIIc was flown by every noob when it first came out and was faster than it was now. We had the Ki-84, I-185, and the Spitfire era The F4u-1c, and others I missed too.

So this is just a fad, that will pass like all the others.
Another patch will come, and though it will change very little, the noobs will listen to the usual dumb buzz and flock to the next percieved "ace-maker".
The balance will tilt in a different direction, and a new wave of threads by the bored will pop-up asking questions like this.


Jumoschwanz

neural_dream
09-09-2005, 07:50 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
09-09-2005, 08:20 AM
Who says you need loads of passes to be downed by .50s?

Here's the track I posted in the 109 DM thread of me shooting down 2 K4s with short bursts in QMB.

http://www.brayllo.plus.com/sig/noobstang.trk

Online, you will experience lag which may cause some aircraft to appear stronger than they are. I know this because I've seen aircraft hit with MK108s flying off with no damage.

Just because what you think you see matches your perception doesn't mean that it's actually happening. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

Kuna15
09-09-2005, 02:53 PM
Norris I agree. .50s will effectivelly destroy any aircraft target within effective range if the well aimed burst hit the target.
--------------------------------------
Power isn't the issue sync/desync is.

With current state besides it isn't historical, it is also tougher to put a well aim from 100% dead 6 chances than it should be.

So yeah, it isn't about how many passes (that would imply inferior gun hitting power), but rather how many bullets will possibly hit the target with synchronisation versus same situations when they are desynchronised.

BSS_CUDA
09-09-2005, 04:58 PM
Norris, online and QMB do not act the same no-way, no-shape, no-form

Grey_Mouser67
09-09-2005, 05:01 PM
Is there anyone in this forum that believes that pilot ability and teamwork, over time, will be essentially the same as there is no statistically significant difference in the physical or mental aptitude of pilots of both sides and that the statistical difference that exists in our world today is most reflective of the tools the otherwise equal pilots are using...namely the aircraft.

I happen to believe that over time, pilots of both sides are relatively equal. I realize that at any snapshot in time, there will be inequality due to statistical fluctuations but when I think about all the variables that affect the outcome, the most notable ones are the aircraft, the objectives of the missions relative to the strength of the aircraft and the location of the objectives the tend to define the tactical situation the pilots and planes meet in.

Now if there were no statistical difference between the blue side and red side over a reasonable amount of time...as time goes by the sample size grows... then one could conclude that the aircraft, objectives and tactical sitautions are relatively equal.

Is there a Master Race of blue pilots out there that are simply better than the rest of us?

JG52_wunsch
09-09-2005, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by 96th_Nightshifter:
Not sure if anyone has already said this but I think it has something to do with the fact that Blue has less of a choice of planes to fly so therefore they become more skilled in them due to flying them constantly whereas th RED team has a lot of choices so have average skills in a lot of planes as opposed to higher skills in fewer planes like blue team. Blue (fighters) basically fly 109 and 190's and the varients majority of the time.
I could be way off on this but it's just my opinion.

amongst all the crying,a voice of reason.well
said m8.great thought,cheers.

Grey_Mouser67
09-09-2005, 09:17 PM
I guess, with that line of logic, when we get all those Italian planes, the blue teams statistics should decline http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif Of course with all those Japanese planes to fly, I'm suprised the decline hasn't started already. I'm being sarcastic of course...this doesn't make any sense.

This whole conversation about the superior skill of blue pilots is getting a little eerie to me.

I fly em both and except for certain circumstances, I find the skill level of both to be very similar.

chilicheese
09-09-2005, 10:06 PM
Good heavens. I cannot believe this topic is still spoken of.

Fly what you like. If you get smoked, keep learning because you obviously don't know as much as the guy with no job, no social life, and nothing better to do than perfect prowess at a effing video game.

Perspective, please. Just have fun. It is an escape, not a lifestyle, people.

And a great one it is! Oleg, thank you!

Pirschjaeger
09-09-2005, 10:10 PM
It's because the reds are busy posting "The reason for Blue Dominance" threads while the blues are still flying. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

Loki-PF
09-09-2005, 10:15 PM
Now *that* was funny! Good one Prischjaeger!
(BTW I'm in between map loads while typing this) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Luftwaffe_109
09-09-2005, 10:34 PM
I wish some of this "blue dominance" would be around whenever I'm flying in my Bf-109... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Xiolablu3
09-10-2005, 02:51 AM
Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
Who says you need loads of passes to be downed by .50s?

Here's the track I posted in the 109 DM thread of me shooting down 2 K4s with short bursts in QMB.

http://www.brayllo.plus.com/sig/noobstang.trk

Online, you will experience lag which may cause some aircraft to appear stronger than they are. I know this because I've seen aircraft hit with MK108s flying off with no damage.

Just because what you think you see matches your perception doesn't mean that it's actually happening. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

I dont think anyone is saying that, its just a LOT easier to down aircraft in one hit with big cannons. Its just common sense.

Jagdklinger
09-10-2005, 02:53 AM
It's because the reds are busy posting "The reason for Blue Dominance" threads while the blues are still flying. Wink2
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
09-10-2005, 03:28 AM
Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
Norris, online and QMB do not act the same no-way, no-shape, no-form

Yes, I agree completely; however, it doesn't just affect one side and not the other. What shooting planes offline shows is the true strength of weapons and I have absolutely no problem shooting down axis planes with .50 cals offline. Online, I have the same problems with them as I would if, say, I was using 151/20s in a high deflection shot where I needed to land a couple of shell that counted but where lag got the better of them.

My point is that people complain about them being weak but what they really mean is that there is a 'reduction in effectiveness online compared to offline'; this is something which affects everyone.


Also, Xiola, it is correct that a cannon is going to cause more damage 'per hit' but their rate of fire is lower which seems to make them even more prone to lag problems. If I had a quid for every time I'd landed a mk108 square on a plane and see the hit effect only for them to have no damage....Besides, I've seen 108 hits doing nothing offline, too - something that I'll try to get a track for.

Ta,
Norris

Von_Rat
09-10-2005, 04:29 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
Who says you need loads of passes to be downed by .50s?

Here's the track I posted in the 109 DM thread of me shooting down 2 K4s with short bursts in QMB.

http://www.brayllo.plus.com/sig/noobstang.trk

Online, you will experience lag which may cause some aircraft to appear stronger than they are. I know this because I've seen aircraft hit with MK108s flying off with no damage.

Just because what you think you see matches your perception doesn't mean that it's actually happening. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

I dont think anyone is saying that, its just a LOT easier to down aircraft in one hit with big cannons. Its just common sense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

have you ever tried hitting a madly twisting spit with a mk108. its hardly easy.

one reason so many blue pilots are so dam good at hitting those madly twisting spits with mk108, isn't because its easy. it's because they didnt have any choice for about 2 years because of the porked 20mm.

i, maybe wrongly, consider myself one hell of a good shot with a mk108, due to long practice.

but i still find it easier to hit, disable, or kill planes with a 50 cal.

neural_dream
09-10-2005, 04:35 AM
Unless you have a h3ll of a good aim the mk108 is useless against an alert spit. The 50 though will spray him well whatever manoeuvres he attempts, or at least that's my personal experience. I am sure many will disagree.

NorrisMcWhirter
09-10-2005, 06:08 AM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
Unless you have a h3ll of a good aim the mk108 is useless against an alert spit. The 50 though will spray him well whatever manoeuvres he attempts, or at least that's my personal experience. I am sure many will disagree.

I agree.

And what people also forget is that putting someone out of the fight (stopping them meeting their objectives) is just as important as downing them there and then. The .50s are ideal (when they are not PKnig or stopping engines) for heavily damaging enemy planes. And that is maybe the reason why red loses a lot of pilots - rather than leaving kills, they want to chase them to finish them off - which leaves them in peril if they go low.

Ta,
Norris

LeadSpitter_
09-10-2005, 08:13 AM
haha mk108 hard to aim, now thats comical.

Here have some more
http://www.idealcheese.com/images/Christmas2004/MaytagBlue.jpg
It certainly stinks

OldMan____
09-10-2005, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
haha mk108 hard to aim, now thats comical.

Here have some more
http://www.idealcheese.com/images/Christmas2004/MaytagBlue.jpg
It certainly stinks

If you are used to it is not hard. But it is so completely different arc off ire that if you are used to other guns when you jump in a Mk108 you will miss a lot more.

Usually for me a singel 151/20 is much better than an Mk108 . I never hit any maneiuvering target with Mk108 farther from 100 meters. With 151/20 I usually fire at 300 -400 meters.

Vipez-
09-10-2005, 04:19 PM
I find 109s to exactly they have used to be - very easy to be destroyed by .50cals.. FW-190 offcourse takes much more effort, but I'm sure Oleg will fix it, just hoping he won't bring the fuel leak bug back to annoy us http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As for the Poll.. without doubt #1. Why? I'm been flying this game since the first Demo, and it took very long time, until it has come to this.. It took long time for Axis planes to reach the current status. What I mean is, I still remember the times of Vef-1, it was pretty much a massacre for blue flyers. Red planes tended to be overmodelled by a great marginal, and FW-190 was the worst airplane for two years.. Eventually late FB-patches, and AEP-patches brought the W├╝rger to more realistic level: it finally became the Butcher-bird.. Most of blue veterans have then learned the true meaning of team work.. (ah, now it's nice to remember the times, when blue-side-players had to give maximum effort and teamwork to compete in Vef1 and Vef2..) Offcourse fixxing the MG151/20-power changed a lot of things as well. This also reflects in servers, like Warclouds, and UKD, where blue wins more, because of much better team work on average..

Vipez-
09-10-2005, 04:22 PM
And just to remind some Vef-veterans, never in history of Vef-1 or Vef-2 has blue won any wars..Allways reds http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Probably if we would fly the same campaigns with current patch, and same players, the situation would be exactly other way around..

Badsight.
09-10-2005, 04:47 PM
Mk-108 is USELESS as an accurate weapon

it fires all over the place

its a up-close hitter because its useless for long range shots

Christos_swc
09-11-2005, 04:34 AM
Well, I'n not sure what's going on.
In the original Il-2 rookies chose Yaks and Las because turn and burn was the easiest thing in the world.
Perhaps rookies now start to appreciate that it's more difficult to learn to shoot correctly than to learn B&Z tactics so they go for the big guns.
Really , everyone likes to shoot at something with light tank guns in the air.
P-47s spray with .50s, FWs spray the sky with 20s.
And the 30s in the nose of the 109 are easily aimed.
It really takes a lot of shooting skills to shoot something down QUICKLY with the reds.
With the FW and 109, even though you still have to aim, you don't have to aim all the time.
Just a touch of the trigger when you get a good aim and perhaps another one if you can and that's a lot of damage.
You don't have to keep the sight on the target all the time and you don't have to get the correct deflection for seconds on and on.

Christos_swc
09-11-2005, 04:40 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
Mk-108 is USELESS as an accurate weapon

it fires all over the place

its a up-close hitter because its useless for long range shots

I partially disagree with that.
The 108s are no good for prolonged firing because they upset the plane but if you aim at the target and fire the shortests of bursts the 30s will land where they are supposed to no mutter were your nose has ended up after the firing.
Of course if your target is moving around a lot they are not as good as a faster firing gun.

jugent
09-11-2005, 07:49 AM
The blue got numerical superiority, mostly.

The spit if flown to stay alive, is superior to most other planes.
If all spit-jocks stayed out of gang-bang furballs, they would dominate.

The spit IX is superior in all aspects exept top-speed compared to german planes.
The P-51 can do everything the Fw can but better exept firepower.

I think that many red fliers are overconfident and used to be superior.
After the latest patch 4.01, the firepower of the german guns where improved almost to Hispano damage-profile.

Red planes (spits, P51, P38) flown in teams that wants to stay alive will dominate the skies

Grey_Mouser67
09-11-2005, 08:20 AM
I was flying the other day online in a K-4 in that most poplular of servers...it was my first sortie and I was trying to figure out where the fight was as I'm not a regular so I don't have the maps memorized.

I was appoaching the target area at about 12,000 ft and there was a fight unfolding below but mostly friendlies I saw...then the phone rang and I got distracted and as I hung up i hear this tink, tink, tink...oh I'm getting damaged...I look around and I don't see anything and think it may be flak...then tink, tink, tink, again! I take evasive action because I know its not flak now...look back in its one of those Mustang MKIII's...well I"m not going to out run him so I call to one of the guys near me on T/S to remove the fellow and through my jinking he hits me with one more burst so now I see bullet holes in my windshield but I am otherwise ok and one of my team mates gets him off me and shoots him down in one short burst of Mk108's.

That is a big reason for the statistical difference...I won't call it dominance, but rather a statistical difference. A real Mustang would have killed me with that first burst...the fact he got two well aimed bursts at close range and I couldn't tell my plane was damaged until the third one where I got bullet holes is a big reason for the difference.

Loki-PF
09-11-2005, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by jugent:
Red planes (spits, P51, P38) flown in teams that wants to stay alive will dominate the skies

Are you basing that statement on your experience or is that just a hunch on your part?

Have you flown red *online* for any length of time in 4.01?

OldMan____
09-11-2005, 09:23 AM
Well.. yesterday I went fly on Spitvs 109 and for a change I got in red team. I got a P38J and there was another red in a spitfire. There were 5 FW190 A8 and 1 109G10 as oposition.


In the short time my connection kept me in game, I managed to kill 3 FW190A8 (one solely with .50 guns in a signle long burst (think 3 secodns on with I hit on about 1,5 secodns lenght) while the spit killed 2 other planes. We were shot down not a single time (I was hit and had to RTB once).

hardly blue dominance. Of course is easier to obliterate taregts with a FW190, but that is how it was in real life!!

In real life most LW pilots would quite from fight or even bail after first .50 burst.. while we keep at plane until very end.

BSS_CUDA
09-11-2005, 09:54 AM
the main problem with the FW is not that you dont do damage, its that you dont see the damage you do, they dont catch on fire, you do not see them leak fuel, very seldom do you get them to smoke. we know the damage is there, but when your in a furball, the last thing you want to do is leave another plane that can come back and get you. thats why most ppl will follow a FW till its down. so while your ensuring that the plane is down, you open yourself and your teammates up to attack

jugent
09-11-2005, 11:59 AM
Yes I fly red often, sometimes more often than blue aircrafts.

Before 4.01 patch I flew less red because they where too good. I like the underdog situation, you know hit from behind.

Nowdays the game is more balanced and now I fly more red.
My "favourite" is the P-47 today but my heart belongs to the spit IX.

I havnt extended my theory to statistical significance, most "spitjocks" throws themselfes into a thick "furball" instead of protecting their leaders six.

But I am sure that four or six spits coordinated and cooperating could wipe out almost everything.

I also think that the same numbers of FW could be lethal if they got hight-advantage.
But as "airdominance" aircraft the spit is unchallanged.
Lets assume this scenario;
Cover/attack of a ground battle area where the main objective is to CAP ground forces.
Here would the spit be "my cup of tea"

Pirschjaeger
09-11-2005, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
the main problem with the FW is not that you dont do damage, its that you dont see the damage you do, they dont catch on fire, you do not see them leak fuel, very seldom do you get them to smoke. we know the damage is there, but when your in a furball, the last thing you want to do is leave another plane that can come back and get you. thats why most ppl will follow a FW till its down. so while your ensuring that the plane is down, you open yourself and your teammates up to attack

That's a good point. You don't see the damage but if you are flying the 190, you definitely feel it. The 190 isn't a good turner as it is and after a few minor hits to the wings it doesn't turn at all. Add to that the huge loss in speed and chances are you'll have no chance unless you bail.

Once your hit, most planes can catch the 190 quite easily. The logical choice is to bail and live to fight another day.

Fritz

OldMan____
09-12-2005, 07:18 AM
Other thing is the mind of red pilots. Other day I logged in WC and there were 19 red planes ant 15 blue ones. The blue ones were 9 FW and the rest were bf109. In the red team there were 15 SPITFIRE!!! Most red come to combat thinking only in turning in circles until something dies.

Where are the P38 ? Mustang III ? All planes that are equal or superior to LW forces?


If red players don't want to fight in the correct way.. don't blame plane set... Red team usually does not know how to use their plane set!!!

Ata team of 19 a much better ratio would be 5 P51 (and variants) 5 P38 /p47 and 5 Spitfire.. each one covering a certain combat envelope.