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DoubleTap2005A
11-24-2005, 05:30 AM
Question:

It's 1941. You're going up against the latest models of Bf fighters. Which fighter, any nation except German, do you take to challenge them, and why?

Sturm_Williger
11-24-2005, 05:34 AM
I-16 ... when he's lost patience and tries to turn with you for an extra shooting opportunity ... you've got him ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-24-2005, 05:38 AM
Westland Whirlwind, of course. What a strange question.

WOLFMondo
11-24-2005, 05:49 AM
Spitfire VB or VC or one of the Mig's. Depends on the height of the fight. Spitfire VB is easily as fast and even the VC is now a better turner than the BF109F. If it was a high battle one of the Migs, there faster than the BF109F's, good BnZ machine, can disengage at will if your clever about it.

DoubleTap2005A
11-24-2005, 06:08 AM
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Westland Whirlwind, of course. What a strange question.</span>

I guess I should have stipulated what flyable planes in Il2/PF would you take. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The reason I ask is that the Bf in that year seem to be such solid performers, statwise, in comparison to what they face. There are few aircraft that beat in them in performance catagories. I recently found myself having difficulty squaring off with a friend of mine online.

Now, part of the reason, upon viewing my tracks, was that I was flying particularly bad that night; kinda like a rabid monkey on crack. I have flown much better but that night I stank. I think part of the reason for THAT was that my friend consistently took the 109, and he was obviously using it to great effect. I think I was surprised how well the thing performed in all sorts of maneuvers. I think after a while I became frustrated because I could not outdue him in standard maneuvers. I was particularly pissed that nomatter what, he seemed to get the height advantage because he could climb like a SOB. I was flying the P40 alot, and I found it hard to perform boom and zoom when he always ended above me. I then tried taking other planes and trying to find one with particular strength over the Bf.

This all led me to really examine my own flying, and how I was approaching things, which I realized was faulty. I finally realized that trying to find a magic bullet was wrongheaded and I needed to think through the situation. Since I was NOT going to be able to outclimb the sucker, I was going have to work on countering his E advantage.

That's the reason I asked the question. To get more of a sense of how people approached the situation tactically, and not technologically. Getting an answer like "I-16" tells me I am on the right track...

danjama
11-24-2005, 06:10 AM
The 1941 BF's are underpowered, dont turn with them. Id take a SpitMkVb. But i wouldnt turn until i had enough time to wing over and get right on him. 109F's are really underpowered but great at slow turns, id bear that in mind the whole time.

nakamura_kenji
11-24-2005, 06:16 AM
ki-61-I-ko like fair fight ^_^

BGs_Ricky
11-24-2005, 06:16 AM
At lower altitudes I'd say a Spit MkV or a Yak-1, both turn better than the Bf and are roughly the same for speed.
Up high the Yak-1 is a dog so I'd keep the SpitV

neural_dream
11-24-2005, 06:18 AM
Ki43 if you don't play historical, and http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif the IAR.

MkVb if you do.

Kuna15
11-24-2005, 06:29 AM
LaGG-3S4.
I like LaGG-3S4 fighter it is sturdy and have excellent firepower.
Otherwise Jak-1/7 are awesome against Bf-109Fs too; you can outturn them when they least expected.

LEBillfish
11-24-2005, 06:41 AM
A Balloon and a Blunderbus......

I'm awesome and don't want an unfair advantage http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

DoubleTap2005A
11-24-2005, 06:52 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
A Balloon and a Blunderbus......

I'm awesome and don't want an unfair advantage http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

You are awesome, and I understand your flying is fantastic too. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Viper2005_
11-24-2005, 07:33 AM
Spitfire V is a very effective Bf-109F killer - decent firepower, decent performance, and much more elevator authority at speed.

Make sure to keep the fight close to your Full Throttle Height, as this will give you the best performance.

Also, don't forget that you can take the 4 cannon version, set a long convergence and force a headon http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

DoubleTap2005A
11-24-2005, 07:50 AM
Also, don't forget that you can take the 4 cannon version, set a long convergence and force a headon http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Heh, something like this already occurred to me. He was fond of head-ons originally because of the cannon, before he discovered his climb advantage.

I was thinking of setting the convergence of the P-40's .50 cals to 500m, and opening firing at around .80, breaking hard at .5. The idea would be to startle him with early, heavy hits and break off before he could get his own cannon shots in.

I wondered then if with a plane with both MG's and cannons, one might set the MG's for even a 600m convergence for those head on's and early breaks, with the cannons at a shorter converg for the follow-up shots when you could circle around him.

LStarosta
11-24-2005, 08:13 AM
Double Tap, you think too much.

There's a reason why improvisation comedians make the best fighter pilots.

KIMURA
11-24-2005, 08:24 AM
I would prefer:
P-40B/C
A6M2

DoubleTap2005A
11-24-2005, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
Double Tap, you think too much.

There's a reason why improvisation comedians make the best fighter pilots.

Actually, I think too little. Another friend of mine dubbed me the "Viking" based upon my usual game style. Too much "ARRRGGGGGHHHHH!" and not enough "Hmmm". I have found that maintaining more of a balance has helped my gameplay immensely. I understand your point about not OVER-analyzing things, but constantly analyzing the situation is what a fighter pilot does, no? Isn't that what situational awareness is about?


Thanks for the opinion, though.

TheCrux
11-24-2005, 10:13 AM
Funny you should ask, I was having some QMB fun ( original patched IL-2 ) last night and thinking the same thing. Bf-109 F's and some E's @ 3000 meters against everything else, trying to see which is best. Anyway....

MiG-3 AM38. Yeah, it's something of a ringer but I was hot hot hot in that thing using its strengths, keeping fast, zoom-climbing, winging-over, vector-rolling. Its proclivity to burning made me very cautious of being hit, which also influenced my tactics. My gunnery for some reason was unusually good too ( I ought to fly drunk...er...buzzed...more often! ) That thing is definately my early war favorite.

Yak-1 is a nice flying airplane but underpowered and much much too light an ammo load.

Lagg-3 has a nice weapon package but is too slow

I-16...too easy to get lazy in the T&B mode....not enough of a challenge.

Gonna try a 20mm MiG-3 at high altitude and see what happens.

fighter_966
11-24-2005, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by DoubleTap2005A:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
Double Tap, you think too much.

There's a reason why improvisation comedians make the best fighter pilots.

Actually, I think too little. Another friend of mine dubbed me the "Viking" based upon my usual game style. Too much "ARRRGGGGGHHHHH!" and not enough "Hmmm". I have found that maintaining more of a balance has helped my gameplay immensely. I understand your point about not OVER-analyzing things, but constantly analyzing the situation is what a fighter pilot does, no? Isn't that what situational awareness is about?


Thanks for the opinion, though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Well actually situation awarness is like seeing and
doing things simultaunosly without thinking about doing them or this is how my dojo teacher
said And yes you are right about that balance thing in awarness. Its a thing that develops better
by having little stress whole time.And your question I d take fw190d if not historical but if it is almost certainly Spitfire ix a Bf killer or Tempest iv

tigertalon
11-24-2005, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by KIMURA:
I would prefer:
P-40B/C
A6M2

This attracted my attention. Ok, A6M2 would, given the initial alt is same and low, hold all the cards. But what tactics would you use in P-40B/C? Anything you can do, he can do better... Except for headon, which he would most likely refuse, and you will only get one headon opportunity.

My votes: SpitVb, MiG3ud, A6M

LStarosta
11-24-2005, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by fighter_966:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DoubleTap2005A:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
Double Tap, you think too much.

There's a reason why improvisation comedians make the best fighter pilots.

Actually, I think too little. Another friend of mine dubbed me the "Viking" based upon my usual game style. Too much "ARRRGGGGGHHHHH!" and not enough "Hmmm". I have found that maintaining more of a balance has helped my gameplay immensely. I understand your point about not OVER-analyzing things, but constantly analyzing the situation is what a fighter pilot does, no? Isn't that what situational awareness is about?


Thanks for the opinion, though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Well actually situation awarness is like seeing and
doing things simultaunosly without thinking about doing them or this is how my dojo teacher
said And yes you are right about that balance thing in awarness. Its a thing that develops better
by having little stress whole time.And your question I d take fw190d if not historical but if it is almost certainly Spitfire ix a Bf killer or Tempest iv </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm... He said 1941.

fighter_966
11-24-2005, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fighter_966:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DoubleTap2005A:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
Double Tap, you think too much.

There's a reason why improvisation comedians make the best fighter pilots. Oh he did
well...... any case I d take fw190... it flew earlier than 41 you know not the d model but a...

Actually, I think too little. Another friend of mine dubbed me the "Viking" based upon my usual game style. Too much "ARRRGGGGGHHHHH!" and not enough "Hmmm". I have found that maintaining more of a balance has helped my gameplay immensely. I understand your point about not OVER-analyzing things, but constantly analyzing the situation is what a fighter pilot does, no? Isn't that what situational awareness is about?


Thanks for the opinion, though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Well actually situation awarness is like seeing and
doing things simultaunosly without thinking about doing them or this is how my dojo teacher
said And yes you are right about that balance thing in awarness. Its a thing that develops better
by having little stress whole time.And your question I d take fw190d if not historical but if it is almost certainly Spitfire ix a Bf killer or Tempest iv </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm... He said 1941. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

vanjast
11-24-2005, 11:56 AM
DoubleTap2005A:-
As you observed in your previous note. There are times when you feel like throwing your joystick out the window - coz you're really flying cruddy that session. Been there done that.

The Zero's, Spits, Yak3 are so easy to fly that people choose them coz they think they going to win all the time.
I mainly choose Fw190, Me109, P40, and Wildcats because they're a real challenge to fly against the previous bunch.
In doing so I've learn't the 'finer art of flying' and am able to outfly/outwit others many a time, in what is seen as a 'flying coffin'. The satisfaction in doing this is a real high - Don't do drugs, do IL2.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

neural_dream
11-24-2005, 12:05 PM
yup, nothing better than killing pikemen with light cavalry http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

LStarosta
11-24-2005, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
yup, nothing better than killing pikemen with light cavalry http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

You AoE nice?

Kuna15
11-24-2005, 12:49 PM
I like what if scenarios so I made these ai bf109s shine (http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/tracks/402__aibf109pwn.rar) offline tracks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. Dealing with the problem is on the same way regardless of player's plane. Best viewed outside of the pilot cockpit http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif.

neural_dream
11-24-2005, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by neural_dream:
yup, nothing better than killing pikemen with light cavalry http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.
You AoE nice? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LameDuck.
11-24-2005, 02:20 PM
Question:

It's 1941. You're going up against the latest models of Bf fighters. Which fighter, any nation except German, do you take to challenge them, and why?
Yak 7 or I-16. I like to win. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

danjama
11-24-2005, 02:22 PM
Yak7? Ha ha ha good one http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

LameDuck.
11-24-2005, 02:39 PM
Oh that's right. The -7 is the converted trainer, isn't it? My bad. My crummy memory told me the -7 was the predecessor to the Yak-9, but that would be the Yak-1.

(They say the first thing to go...is...oh, whatever) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

danjama
11-24-2005, 03:57 PM
Yak7 is a poor poor plane! I would sooner take the Yak 1, but that is incredibly underpowered to 109F's as well.

Kuna15
11-24-2005, 05:24 PM
Hey Dan IMO new 402 Yak-7B is a good oponent to contemporary Bf-109s.
It is really lovely ride quite fast and manouverable check it out armament is also good 2xUBS + 1xShVAK.
It's around 20kph slower on deck (just checked) than contemporary Germans tho.

danjama
11-24-2005, 05:31 PM
Well i tried it in 4.01 and it wasa dog!! Kuna aint been online lately btw?

Kuna15
11-24-2005, 05:38 PM
Yak-7B 42 is a good plane but I must agree that FW-190A4 and Bf-109G2 are better performing planes.

I ain't much online now, today I haven't got much obligations so I played FB a bit.
-------------------
Anyway I had really rough time lately in the past 2 weeks both of my grandparents died and I had to arrange everything for funeral and all... and also I have major problems with my dad -- really rough time for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif. Without my fiancee's help I simply don't know how I would went thru all that.

danjama
11-24-2005, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by Kuna15:
Yak-7B 42 is a good plane but I must agree that FW-190A4 and Bf-109G2 are better performing planes.

I ain't much online now, today I haven't got much obligations so I played FB a bit.
-------------------
Anyway I had really rough time lately in the past 2 weeks both of my grandparents died and I had to arrange everything for funeral and all... and also I have major problems with my dad -- really rough time for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif. Without my fiancee's help I simply don't know how I would went thru all that.

Im sorry mate, i hope u get through it ok http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

tigertalon
11-24-2005, 08:09 PM
Danjama, Kuna is speaking about new Yak7b, which was added in 4.02. Now there are two Yak7bs in game. And to me this late version indeed does not seem completely useless against contemporary 109s.

Kuna, head up. All the best!

fighter_966
11-24-2005, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by LameDuck.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Question:

It's 1941. You're going up against the latest models of Bf fighters. Which fighter, any nation except German, do you take to challenge them, and why?
Yak 7 or I-16. I like to win. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh
then I d take Zero and somebody who could really fly it like Nishzikawa or Saburo Sakai...
Reason I know how good planes 109 were..i fly them myself at least in this game...That also depends who is flying that bf109...

Pinker15
11-25-2005, 12:45 AM
For me against 109F series best is Spitfire V. This is really 109 killer. Same as it was in real here in game it is too. All U need is to keep yours speed high, fly on full power all the time, dont do scisors with him. If he doing it just go up and zoom him next. Try to not use flaps in spit because it make U slows down. Remember that great advantage of Spitfire over any 109 is hes energy retention. Try useit wise. Don't do any horizontal turns if U are not in emergency situation. If U do this correctly 109 can run only http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

DoubleTap2005A
11-25-2005, 05:36 AM
Okay,

Its interesting to see how many different takes there is on this situation. Almost everyone has a different plane and different strategies.

So, here is what I found in this situation, and why I started really to review my flying. Reviewing the tracks from this running battle, I found that I did the best in...

The Buffalo Mk. I.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Yep. In that plane, I completely cleaned his clock. Even he admitted it was the nastiest exchange for him we had that night.

Why? Part of it is that I think, despite its flaws, the Buffalo is a really solid plane. Because it is so stable I did not have any of the sort of problem with stalls or spinouts. I was able to turn on or loop him constantly and, more importantly, stay in control the whole time. In the other planes, both he and I were flying really at the envelope. Stalls and spins were frequent; he just recovered his and took advantage of mine better.

In the Mk I, I don't think I lost control once. Even when I stalled in a climb, I was able to neatly turn over quickly and resume normal flight after a short dive, usually on his tail.

Also, the Buffalo relatively slower speed worked against him. I kept things on or near the deck, and his attempts at high speed passes and maneuvers always failed as I dodged out of the way and quickly turned in on him. When it came to firing, it seemed more precise than in some other planes.

I also think it is because I have flown the Mk I a whole lot. I have flown it in two campaigns (not complete) and have grown comfortable with it. Obsolete or not, I think its a neat little plane. I notice that it seems to recover its speed pretty quickly in a dive which I used to my advantage. When I watched the track, it seemed like I was really flying the thing, and not just yanking on the stick.

Of course, with someone else at the controls of the Bf 109, my experience might have been different, but then maybe I would have done better with another plane.

I guess the bottom line is what other people have often said, while there is something to be said for the quality of the plane, its how the pilot handles it which matters the most.

alert_1
11-25-2005, 08:41 AM
LaGG 3 all way. Can hang up with Me109F at 160 km/h IAS, kevlar armor, green lasers..you cant want more..

Kuna15
11-25-2005, 03:51 PM
@ danjama, tigertalon thanks guys for kind words.

neural_dream
11-25-2005, 04:37 PM
I wish things get better for you Kuna.

Kuna15
11-25-2005, 04:49 PM
Thanks mate. It seems better now but still... well I wont whine about it anymore. I suppose we all have our problems and I am just lucky man to have somebody to help me when it is tough (my fiancee). She is a really good person I knew it before but she really surprised me just how much... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif I suppose you cannot tell just how good/bad people are unless there are bad times.

Anyway sorry for hijacking the thread.

fighter_966
11-26-2005, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Kuna15:
Thanks mate. It seems better now but still... well I wont whine about it anymore. I suppose we all have our problems and I am just lucky man to have somebody to help me when it is tough (my fiancee). She is a really good person I knew it before but she really surprised me just how much... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif I suppose you cannot tell just how good/bad people are unless there are bad times.

Anyway sorry for hijacking the thread.
Tally ho Kuna!!