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View Full Version : Inconsistancy in Plane visibilty - Using Zoom Views



XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 05:14 PM
Why can I see a plane as a white or black dot on Far out ZOOM view clearly from 400m-15km.

But when Normal view / or close view is selected to gett a better clearer view, the White / Black dot of the plane disappears and I'm left having to close my head to 5 inches from the monitor and still can't see the Planes as before.

This is a problem that people have passed over in discussions always.

This is not a padlock issue or track-ir issue. I use both!!

Padlock helps me stop being frustrated by this SILLY MONITOR/GRAPHICS annoyance. Those that have decided not to use padlock have accepted it. But it's still a problem they choose to ignore. Even with Padlock I don't like not seeing something that I could see clearly from far out view.

My specs for are 1024 res and 32bit colour , ATI 9700pro
Anyone else experience FRUSTRATING BUG !!





Message Edited on 09/07/0306:19PM by Pye

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 05:14 PM
Why can I see a plane as a white or black dot on Far out ZOOM view clearly from 400m-15km.

But when Normal view / or close view is selected to gett a better clearer view, the White / Black dot of the plane disappears and I'm left having to close my head to 5 inches from the monitor and still can't see the Planes as before.

This is a problem that people have passed over in discussions always.

This is not a padlock issue or track-ir issue. I use both!!

Padlock helps me stop being frustrated by this SILLY MONITOR/GRAPHICS annoyance. Those that have decided not to use padlock have accepted it. But it's still a problem they choose to ignore. Even with Padlock I don't like not seeing something that I could see clearly from far out view.

My specs for are 1024 res and 32bit colour , ATI 9700pro
Anyone else experience FRUSTRATING BUG !!





Message Edited on 09/07/0306:19PM by Pye

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 05:16 PM
Yes, always. Its extremely ******** annoying. Eventually you just learn to use the widest FOV until their inside about 1km. Kinda funny, using the farthest back zoom to see the longest distance when you think about it.

http://www.redspar.com/redrogue/CraggerUbisig.jpg

About after 30 minutes I puked all over my airplane. I said to myself "Man, you made a big mistake." -Charles 'Chuck' Yeager, regards his first flight

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 07:36 PM
Yep it's very annoying when you concentrate on a spot by zooming in and then totally lose it. It seems the speck gets darker when you zoom in and therefore merges with the background more easily. I can't be sure it gets darker because I can't see it, but what was a pale spot against a darker background does disappear.

Kernow
249 IAP

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 08:12 PM
Affirmative.

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 08:59 PM
I didn't know this...I fly around like a blind man always wondering how the other people see me but I don't see them. Shame as the cockpit doesn't look nice when you zoom out so far.

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 01:03 AM
Yes. Zoom out you see the tell-tale dot. Zoom-in for a closer view, they`ve dissappeared. Not very logical and I would say a definite bug to correct.

But has Oleg been informed of this? Or have more vociferous whiners hikacked it with their own personal aircraft whines?

In my opinion we`d do everyone a big favour to point this out to Olegg. It affects all flyers. (If it`s not been done I`ll make a point of it in ORR- Whether I`ll be heard is another story /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif ).

"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 03:33 AM
Yes, this is annoying. I've noticed it too.

On the other hand, it sort of models persistance of vision. If you stare directly at a distant speck (i.e. zoom the FOV), the image fades as your retina gets used to it and the speck will fade from sight.

Don't believe me? Go outside and look at the stars at night. Stare at a relatively dim one. It looks fine when you see it by peripheral vision, yet once you stare at it, it vanishes.

Going back to aircraft, there's really only 2 ways to reliably notice an aircraft at great distance: (1) motion, and (2) flashes of sunlight.

The sim can't model the skill (or lack thereof) pilots use in focusing their eyes out to infinity. At rest your eyes focus naturally at a spot 10-15m in front of you. It is damn hard to force your eyeballs out to infinity against a plain blue sky.

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 03:38 AM
OK, back to computer simulation mechanics..... the reason the specks "dissapear" when you zoom is (i'm guessing) because the aircraft changes from 1-pixel speck mode to the next higher LOD which is a lot less contrast-y.

Even if the aircraft stayed in 1-pixel speck mode, all the OTHER stuff in the background gets a whole lot more pixels, relatively speaking, when you zoom in. In wide mode, you're looking at 1 pixel against a forest of 10,0000 pixels, but when you zoom it becomes 1 pixel of plane against a forest of 80,000 pixels.

Maybe the solution is to alpha blend the aircraft "speck" as into the background more or less depending on range. An aircraft at just beyond multi-pixel LOD range would appear as a high contrast speck (depending on the background of course), while aircraft farther away would blend in the background more and more. Seems like IL-2 already does this to a limited extent.... except that changing the FOV blows away the effect.

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 10:31 AM
SeaFireLIV wrote:
- Yes. Zoom out you see the tell-tale dot. Zoom-in for
- a closer view, they`ve dissappeared. Not very
- logical and I would say a definite bug to correct.
-
- But has Oleg been informed of this? Or have more
- vociferous whiners hikacked it with their own
- personal aircraft whines?
-
- In my opinion we`d do everyone a big favour to point
- this out to Olegg. It affects all flyers. (If it`s
- not been done I`ll make a point of it in ORR-
- Whether I`ll be heard is another story
-
- SeaFireLIV.

Ah SeaFire, then you'll be labelled a 'dot-whiner' for FB is perfect and unsurpassable... like 1.1b was and 1.0 and Il-2 final and, err the other patches too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif No doubt 1.11 final-yes-really will be even more unsurpassable, but I suspect the disappearing dot will still be there.

Kernow
249 IAP

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 10:37 AM
Yep I find this all the time ,sure makes it hard to avoid using the padlock to find targets that should be easy to spot

No1RAAF_Pourshot


http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CAC-15.jpg

CAC CA-15 Kangaroo

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 11:25 AM
I have a funny feeling that the way this issue is handled in the game [disappearing dots] has to do with the way dynamic LOD is performed on models. In flyby mode, note how zoom in view gets you the high detail level model almost all the way through the flyby, whereas on the widest FOV it only kicks in when the plane is nearest the camera.

It could be that the disappearing dots are just a quick hack to prevent large size models being drawn, or to stop the game displaying models that would be much larger/more detailed than they should be at that distance.

Just a thought.

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 12:14 PM
Don't forget that the "zoom" view is actually about right for what the human eye would see. The "normal" and "wide field" are actually zoomed out quite a bit.

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 12:16 PM
Alternatively - if it's a dot in zoom out mode, leave it as a dot in zoomed in mode. Or even make it four dots in zoomed in mode, and change to a model rather than a dot in all views simultaneously.

Zoomed out
#

Normal Zoom
##

Zoomed in
##
##

Change to models simultaneously in all three views.

OK, it's not perfect but at least there would be some sort of consistency in size.

&lt;embed src="http://www.redhalibut.co.uk/webs/RedHalibut/images/flyboysig240603.swf" loop=true menu=false quality=high wmode=transparent bgcolor=#030303 WIDTH=400 HEIGHT=32 TYPE="application/x-shockwave-flash"></EMBED>

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 01:36 PM
Baloban wrote:
- Maybe the solution is to alpha blend the aircraft
- "speck" as into the background more or less
- depending on range.


Sounds like a good, and simple, solution.

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 05:22 PM
You are correct about the star seeming to disappear when you stare at it, but I suspect your reasoning is not quite right.

Biologically our eyes have a light sensitive layer covering part of the interior surface, called the retina. There are two types of photosensitive cells in the retina; the rods and cones. These convert light into electrical signals that are carried to the brain by the optic nerve.

In the centre of the retina (fovea) there are only cones - these are very high resolution, give colour vision, but have a low sensitivity to light level.

On the outer edge are only rods - these cells are very light sensitive, but are low resolution and do not see in colour (black and white only).

In between the edge and centre are a mixture of rods and cones.

In your starlight analogy, you see the faint star in peripheral vision more clearly because the cones at the centre do not have enough light to stimulate them. This is why things seem to go black and white in low light levels, even though you can still see objects.

In brighter light you use the centre of your eye to see detail and colour. Interestingly you will find that you cannot read this text out of the corner of your eye, even though you can see the words are still there! (rods are low resolution).

(There is also "dark adaptation" officially known as 'Scotopic vision' where chemicals are released into the eye after prolonged exposure to low light level, increasing the sensitivity of the rods, particularly towards the blue end of the spectrum.)

Regarding field of view (FOV) - the FOV of the Fovea (high resolution, central part of retina) is just 0.3 degrees. However, the peripheral FOV of the human eye is huge at 180 degrees, ~120 of which is binocular vision. Also, your surroundings are projected onto your eyeballs, which are spherical surfaces, and then processed by your brain as such. A real wide field of view should look distorted because of the curvature when displayed on a flat computer screen - so we're only approximating reality quite poorly anyway.

So, how might this apply to IL2 plane visibility v. zoom level?

If we assume that the greatest zoom-in level is simulating using binoculars (did they really carry these in plane and use two hands to hold them up?!) it would be true to say that a lower light intensity is being received by the eye. In this case the cones will be stimulated less than before and the detail of the image might fade - this is something that every amateur astronomer knows - when you increase the magnification of a telescope, faint objects get bigger but also much harder to see without using peripheral vision.

However, in IL2 we are generally talking about viewing in daylight, not low light level conditions, and the reduction in light intensity through increased magnification probably shouldn't be significant enough to prevent stimulation of the cones.

So, I guess this means I think it's not quite modelled as accurately as we might like, although I wouldn't call it a bug, as it might be by design to prevent loss of FPS as the other posters mention. Comments or corrections to my biology theory are welcome, as I'm no expert!

Regards,
Apollo


Baloban wrote:
- Yes, this is annoying. I've noticed it too.
-
- On the other hand, it sort of models persistance of
- vision. If you stare directly at a distant speck
- (i.e. zoom the FOV), the image fades as your retina
- gets used to it and the speck will fade from sight.
-
- Don't believe me? Go outside and look at the stars
- at night. Stare at a relatively dim one. It looks
- fine when you see it by peripheral vision, yet once
- you stare at it, it vanishes.
-
- Going back to aircraft, there's really only 2 ways
- to reliably notice an aircraft at great distance:
- (1) motion, and (2) flashes of sunlight.
-
- The sim can't model the skill (or lack thereof)
- pilots use in focusing their eyes out to infinity.
- At rest your eyes focus naturally at a spot 10-15m
- in front of you. It is damn hard to force your
- eyeballs out to infinity against a plain blue sky.
-
-

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 05:39 PM
^word.



Sorry, I just had to do that.

http://www.redspar.com/redrogue/CraggerUbisig.jpg

About after 30 minutes I puked all over my airplane. I said to myself "Man, you made a big mistake." -Charles 'Chuck' Yeager, regards his first flight

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 08:08 PM
Thanks for replying all, interesting reading


Please can you mention it in some communication to Oleg.

A possible solution could be intermittant flashes appropriate colour, simulating the reflective surfaces that there are.


How about replacing frustration with Curiosity
So For example the dot is over a over a forest your looking down on it in far out mode, you zoom in on NORMAL or Zoom distances and the inevitable , dissapperaing happens, Before you get frustrated, you notice a small flash of something, there it happened again ..!

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 08:21 PM
I run my setting for online at 1600x1200 32 DX (off line i run OGL) - all setting set to max - the dot doesn;t disappear - however the quality does degrade a bit.

I had been running at the setting jsut below - 1280 x 960 and noticed a major degrade of all graphics - I could then make the dot disappear.

- My personel experience -