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View Full Version : Do you feel tailgunner accuracy is over-modeled?



total_n00B1965
12-16-2011, 03:34 PM
The tailgunners of any kind of a bomber appear to all be Carlos Hathcock, or some of his kin. They are all ridiculously good at their jobs.

I feel this accuracy is wickedly over-modeled. What do you guys think?

VW-IceFire
12-16-2011, 04:17 PM
Yes and no.

Gunners have a propensity for firing killing shots at extreme ranges. They also tend to be able to make shots despite the G forces of the plane they are firing from.

The first problem has gotten quite a bit better in recent patches to the point where I haven't had a sniper shot on me at all in 4.10.1. The gunners are also now affected by lighting conditions such as if you approach from the sun. The sniping shot from a tumbling bomber is still something they do sometimes... but again I haven't seen that happen recently.

Which version are you currently playing?

On the other hand... the people I see online who tend to complain the loudest about gunners that are too accurate are also the ones flying straight lines and attacking from the back of the bomber. This position is often called the "dead 6" position and it's not because the bomber is going to be dead... it's because you're going to be dead.

A little deflection angle and an overhead or underhand pass are better techniques to kill bombers without being exposed to the defensive gunfire. There is a reason why the Luftwaffe did their best to set up for head on passes against bomber formations as the weight of fire was considerable less out ahead of the formation.

Woke_Up_Dead
12-16-2011, 05:22 PM
I go back and forth on this.

It seems to be over-modeled as far as real life accuracy of single gunners goes, especially for gunners in two engined fighters or light bombers shooting while making wild maneuvers.

But on the other hand it's not over-modeled to the point that I can't enjoy the game when bombers are around, I just know that I can't get lazy around them.

Also, game limitations and mission design handicap the bombers by usually not letting them fly in huge defensive formations, high enough to make intercepts difficult like they often did during the war. It feels like the sharp-shooting gunners were added to compensate for those limitations, and I feel the overall balance turned out OK.

thefruitbat
12-16-2011, 07:20 PM
Ho Ho Ho, this is up there with are 50's under modelled.

Yes in the fact that G doesn't affect ai gunners, so at the moment when there stomach is trying to come out of there mouth they can still fire as if they are standing on the ground.

If you use the search function on this you will find hundreds of threads over the last 10 years.

However, if the bomber is flying straight and level, and you're stupid enough to park on its 6, you deserve to get everything that will happen to you.

total_n00B1965
12-16-2011, 09:20 PM
Fair enough.

Can you kill the AI gunners (I mean, before the ship goes down)?

I think I was able to fill the aft end of the Bettys I encountered with enough lead to sink a cruiser. I wonder if I was able to kill the gunners?

Sillius_Sodus
12-16-2011, 10:22 PM
Gunners can be killed, but it's not easy.

There's no point trying to aim for them, the game uses some kind of voodoo black magic type of algorithm to determine their hit bubbles.

If you get one, just think of it as a bonus.

TheCrux
12-16-2011, 10:26 PM
As someone who flies mostly bombers online ( mostly the PTO on 'Zekes vs Wildcats' ) I feel the gunner modelling is just fine the way it is http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But really though:


Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
...the people I see online who tend to complain the loudest about gunners that are too accurate are also the ones flying straight lines and attacking from the back of the bomber. This position is often called the "dead 6" position and it's not because the bomber is going to be dead... it's because you're going to be dead.

Quite right. The tail gunner has perhaps the best firing solution with minimal deflection of any position in a bomber. Granted, the nose gun position is probably more effective if you consider ballistics, but you obviously have a shorter firing window. In any case, I see so many fighters ( mostly Hellcats/Wildcats ) attack Betty's from the rear and get shot to pieces, because they don't have the patience to set up a boom & zoom attack, let alone a head-on attack...even though the latter two ( when they are employed by fliers willing to use them ) are nearly always successful in either downing or damaging the bomber enough to prevent the bomber's mission or require a pre-mature ditching in the sea on their RTB.

Manning the guns for a dead-6 attack is almost fun, and a great way to pad my aircraft kill stats....not that I care about stuff like that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bearcat99
12-17-2011, 07:53 PM
Then there is the magic one shot bb that will take out your engine .. no matter what you are flying .. a P-47 or a Mustang.. tail gunner or ground gunner...

Monty_Thrud
12-18-2011, 04:21 AM
The Bomber AI is over-modelled for the solo online player, otherwise no-one would fly them, relying on your side to cover you on the bomb-run is a no-no, unless you're in a Squad.

However, for the offliners it's even more frustrating trying to attack a herd of Bombers.

Shame there isn't an offline/online AI.

And attacking Bombers was never a walk in the park.

Uncle_Stranger
12-18-2011, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Monty_Thrud:
And attacking Bombers was never a walk in the park.

I beg to differ. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g344/Slomamba/il2fb2011-12-1821-09-17-69.jpg
http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g344/Slomamba/il2fb2011-12-1821-09-27-34.jpg
http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g344/Slomamba/il2fb2011-12-1821-09-37-07.jpg

WTE_Galway
12-18-2011, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by total_n00B1965:
Fair enough.

Can you kill the AI gunners (I mean, before the ship goes down)?

I think I was able to fill the aft end of the Bettys I encountered with enough lead to sink a cruiser. I wonder if I was able to kill the gunners?

They do occasionally die. Pilots can be killed as well.

The gunners seem to have been made a bit more bullet proof then is strictly realistic because occasionally human players take up the gunner position and get annoyed if they die instantly.

Note that attacking from the dead six is historically inaccurate. In the B0B for example the recommended RAF attack was side on. Luftwaffe attacks on allied bombers were regularly from head on, or in the case of night fighters underneath.

mortoma
12-21-2011, 02:26 PM
For me the "gunners are too good" thing has gone on long enough. I've been reading the same stuff for 10 years. They really are only good up close and when you fly steady at 6 o'clock.

I have found by testing that when I'm a bomber gunner, I'm about 8 times more accurate than a AI bomber gunner is when the bomber is on 'ace' level. If the AI could shoot as good as me, you'd truly be in trouble, believe it! Not bragging really though, just the truth and I could prove it if I recorded some tracks.

And yes, the AI skill level of the pilot is generally transferred to the gunners in this game. The gunners in a AI bomber set to 'novice' are no where nearly as good as the 'ace' gunners are.

But even the ace ones stink!! Just don't fly steadily at six o'clock and you'll be alright most of the time.

thefruitbat
12-21-2011, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by mortoma:
For me the "gunners are too good" thing has gone on long enough. I've been reading the same stuff for 10 years. They really are only good up close and when you fly steady at 6 o'clock.

I have found by testing that when I'm a bomber gunner, I'm about 8 times more accurate than a AI bomber gunner is when the bomber is on 'ace' level. If the AI could shoot as good as me, you'd truly be in trouble, believe it! Not bragging really though, just the truth and I could prove it if I recorded some tracks.

And yes, the AI skill level of the pilot is generally transferred to the gunners in this game. The gunners in a AI bomber set to 'novice' are no where nearly as good as the 'ace' gunners are.

But even the ace ones stink!! Just don't fly steadily at six o'clock and you'll be alright most of the time.

Rear gunners from manoeuvring planes is bullcr*p.

Don't disagree about planes that are flying straight and level though.

Planes such as BF110's and alike, its ridiculous that under high G loads the rear gunners fire like nothings happening to them, when in real life you'd be having enough trouble just holding on.

As to what a hero you are in being a rear gunner, thats cause its easy, and nothing like real life.

And no i don't have any problem shooting down bombers.

I do however find it a tad ironic, that in il2 its much easier to shoot down 2 ace ai bf109's, than 1 ace ai Bf110. How historical.

megalopsuche
12-22-2011, 08:23 AM
Learn this lesson: you can use perfect tactics against AI gunners and you will still get shot. Selecting an aircraft that is right for the job is paramount, i.e. one that will hold up under fire.

WTE_Galway
12-22-2011, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by thefruitbat:
I do however find it a tad ironic, that in il2 its much easier to shoot down 2 ace ai bf109's, than 1 ace ai Bf110. How historical.


Indeed, possibly Hitlers well known enthusiasm for the Bf110 can be explained by his experiences online flying a very early version of Il2.