PDA

View Full Version : How do I REFUEL and RELOAD during mission???



mynameisjacob7
04-02-2007, 12:11 PM
Is there a way reload your bombs/ammo and refuel after you have landed on your base? Sometimes you run out of ammo and there are still targets left in the air/ground. It would be AWESOME if this was possible. There has to be a way??

mynameisjacob7
04-02-2007, 12:11 PM
Is there a way reload your bombs/ammo and refuel after you have landed on your base? Sometimes you run out of ammo and there are still targets left in the air/ground. It would be AWESOME if this was possible. There has to be a way??

-HH-Quazi
04-02-2007, 01:13 PM
Afraid not m8. This has been a topic of discussion on the ORR forums with m8s wanting the same. The only thing you can do is either try to use your ammo as sparingly as possible to stretch it's use, or, land hit refly and go on to the next. If you are playing a dynamic campaign, those ground targets left from a previous mission may very well be in place when you start the next.

WWSensei
04-02-2007, 04:08 PM
Just set the difficulty option of ammo to unlimited. Same effect. Go ahead and land when you are ready and pretend they reloaded you.

LEXX_Luthor
04-02-2007, 07:38 PM
*bump*

My first poast at this board years ago was starting a thread asking if ReFuel and ReArm was possible, and I was politely told no. But I rushed out to get the sim late that night anyways as I always wanted to fly I-16 and MiG-3 in a sim and I had just found out about this one. ReFuel and ReArm with a required wait is a core fun gameplay feature for me, as its immersive and historically "realistic(tm)" for some types of WW2 missions.

You can use unlimited Fuel/Ammo, but they are neither realistic nor immersive because (1) the way you plan your engagements, if at all, depends on ammo and fuel status and (2) you are not required to make a decision to land and have to wait for a refit. Waiting on the ground, and on carrier deck, for a time can cause some interesting gameplay experiences if your airfield (or carrier) comes under air attack while you sit vulnerable during refit. Unlimited Fuel/Ammo does not model either of these gameplay features.

In the old DOS Su-27 Flaker 1.0 sim from 1995, I made "extended" extra length missions that made the player *think* before landing and re-fitting. If you were low on fuel or ammo, do you stay in the air and help fight the enemy, or do you risk landing to arm up again, as you could be caught on the ground during the (rather short) refit wait...?

Good question! Wellcome to Forgotten Board. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/thumbs.gif

mynameisjacob7
04-02-2007, 08:52 PM
Man that sucks. It would've added a whole new DIMENSINON to this awesome game. Isn't there a super-savvy modder out there that can add some lines of code and make refuel/reload thing work??? Or a simple patch from MADDOX?

Unlimited Fuel would sorta work but Unlimited Ammo wouldn't because this includes bombs and missiles. You can't dogfight with 2 1000lb bombs strapped on your wings forever.

Zeus-cat
04-02-2007, 09:11 PM
This is a simulation. Refueling and reloading took hours in real life for most planes, not seconds. The emphasis in this game is realism and survival. Use your ammo wisely like they did in real life. Run away if you have to and fight another day if you are low on ammo.

If you want to play a game with the features you talked about go get BF1942. Furthermore, the code is closed and can't be modded. Besides, most of it is probably in Russian.

LEXX_Luthor
04-02-2007, 09:30 PM
jacob:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It would've added a whole new DIMENSINON to this awesome game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Awsim game! But, no such modding available for this feature. Maybe a simple ReArm/ReFuel option will be included for Oleg's next sim BoB And Beyond as the feature offers many customers an extra gameplay option.

A whole class of community made "extended" missions could be made and shared that would (roughly) simulate historic short turn around operations -- minutes, not "hours"(tm) -- like interception (Bf-109s over Reich) or Army close air support (Hs-129 in Romania) -- if we had flyable Hs-129. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

...but only roughly. To better simulate such operations, developers would have to program surviving or undamaged AI -- all of them across the map, not just the player's squadron -- to also land and refit for another sortie during the "mission" run or game run. The dymamic campaign designers would have to make it work (Lowengrin would do it with love). But, just player aircraft refit would be a simple way for developers to add an immersive method of simulating multiple sorties using extended mission design concepts like I used in Flaker 1.0. Stay tuned! Stay hopeful!

Chivas
04-03-2007, 11:39 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Surviving the Battle of Britain depended on being able to refuel and rearm aircraft quickly as pilots quite often flew several mission a day. The turn around times were measured in minutes. BOB will not be simulated very well if this option isn't available.

~Salute~
Chivas

LEXX_Luthor
04-03-2007, 12:48 PM
Well, its doubtful if the developers will spend the resources to program all surviving and undamaged AI aircraft to refit during a mission or game run, and allow mission designers or the dynamic campaign mission generator to make use of multiple AI sorties, so nothing is going to be truly "100% realistc(tm)" in this area. But doing this would be a true advance in air warfare simulation, and real advances are always difficult but often worthwile. But again, even just simplistic player aircraft refitting would allow an extra gameplay option for those desiring it for certain uses. It was alot of fun in Flaker 1.0, both in gameplay and extended mission design.

Rattler68
04-04-2007, 09:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chivas:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Surviving the Battle of Britain depended on being able to refuel and rearm aircraft quickly as pilots quite often flew several mission a day. The turn around times were measured in minutes. BOB will not be simulated very well if this option isn't available.

~Salute~
Chivas </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Those planes had light loadouts, and small fuel loads. It would be harder for even a Spit IX with its cannons to re-arm. Imagine a P-51! Lots of fuel! Even worse for bombers or Jabos.

They were also easier to patch up in BoB if they sustained damage, and the situation was dire. They were forced to: it wasn't the ideal situation.

LEXX_Luthor
04-04-2007, 03:53 PM
Rattler:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Those planes had light loadouts, and small fuel loads. It would be harder for even a Spit IX with its cannons to re-arm. Imagine a P-51! Lots of fuel! Even worse for bombers or Jabos. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Depends on the aircraft and ground support.

Grupul 8 Asalt ~ http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/g8as.htm :: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
On 29 October the 8th Assault Group moved to the Chaplinka airfield. During the first days of November, the Romanian Henschel pilots practically saved the 24th Infantry Division, which was retreating followed closely by Soviet forces. <span class="ev_code_yellow">They managed to fly about 15-16 missions per day each</span>! No other Romanian group made as many sorties in one day, as the 8th Assault Group did then. There was always a patrulγ (Romanian for Schwarm) in the air covering the infantrymen. Thus they managed to rescue the lives of more than 10,000 men. Five assault aircraft were lost, as were two pilots. The other three were rescued by their comrades.



~ http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/g8as.htm </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And November has very short days in Eastern Europe.

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2007, 09:53 AM
rattler-

this come up a lot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In the Battle of Britian, it took approximately 9 minutes to rearm, refuel, and replenish O2 on a Hurricane, and not quite twice that long for a Spit with machine guns

Zeus-cat
04-05-2007, 07:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> In the Battle of Britian, it took approximately 9 minutes to rearm, refuel, and replenish O2 on a Hurricane, and not quite twice that long for a Spit with machine guns </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this was implemented in IL-2, would you limit the rearm & refuel uption to the Hurri and Spit? Or would you extend it to all aircraft even though it would not really be feasible to rearm an He-111 or B-25 in that amount of time? Would you make it happen instantaneously or the realistic time frame? We have about 300 aircraft in the game, many of them couldn't be replenished quickly.

In a dedicated BoB sim you could do it for the British planes easily.

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2007, 08:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zeus-cat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> In the Battle of Britian, it took approximately 9 minutes to rearm, refuel, and replenish O2 on a Hurricane, and not quite twice that long for a Spit with machine guns </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this was implemented in IL-2, would you limit the rearm & refuel uption to the Hurri and Spit? Or would you extend it to all aircraft even though it would not really be feasible to rearm an He-111 or B-25 in that amount of time? Would you make it happen instantaneously or the realistic time frame? We have about 300 aircraft in the game, many of them couldn't be replenished quickly.

In a dedicated BoB sim you could do it for the British planes easily. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd do neither, plus we will not have 300 planes in BoB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I would allow the player to land, and occupy the next available fully prepared aircraft, if any were available. If none were available, he or she would have to wait until one was. In the event the squadron 'pool' is full of reafy planes, then the player can take off immediately. In multiplayer this means a queue, but a short one in most cases, and also this would simply be an option anyway "Realistic replenish on/off"

I have heard this idea argued against strongly, although I cannot imagine why. It allows the player a real chance at immediately flying again, while making the historically correct tactical and strategic scenarios of limited planes ready for combat possible. It is quite simply the best of both worlds, and if used as an option, allows flexibility heretofore unknown in this family of sims. if a squadron has 16 planes, and you and I and 8 of our mates go fly coop, and need to rearm, well, we all fly again immediately except for four who must wait in queue- this also introduces the dynamic of choosing an aircraft based on qualities quite outside of it's flight prowess. You may be able to take on the entire Luftwaffe in a Spit I if you can just 'refly', but what if your lovely Spit Mk I is down for 18 minutes getting service? A Hurri would be up and fighting.

These choices would add an entirely new level of tactical and strategical play, for both sides

For BoB to work as an historical scenario, the RAF must have as a real problem "re-arm, replenish, and re-fuel". It is as critical as fuel status for Bf 109s

Zeus-cat
04-05-2007, 09:14 PM
Your idea makes sense, but this not what the original post was about. They wanted the replenish option in THIS game. I agree 100% that it makes sense for BoB and your idea is an excellent way of handling it.

I still see a few problems though. What if you die? Do you get to join the queue or is there a timeout penalty? And what if you fly as a German? Your option really only works if you fly British. There is no way to do an equivalent option for the Germans unless they can fly out to some imaginary line on the map and then respawn into a new plane. It doesn't seem quite fair (in terms of gameplay) to force a player flying a German aircraft to fly all the way back to France (or Denmark and Norway if they include Luftflotte 5). Would the German player spawn into a new wave of attacking aircraft?

At some point you deviate from realism, the question is where do you draw that line?

LEXX_Luthor
04-05-2007, 10:26 PM
Zeus, like with the "realism"(tm) options we have now, the customer or server master should be able to decide what his/her methods will be used to enjoy the product.


Zeus:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There is no way to do an equivalent option for the Germans unless they can fly out to some imaginary line on the map and then respawn into a new plane. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
"Realistically"(tm), ReArm and ReFuel can't always be used by everybody in a given game run. Six hour P-51Dora missions to Berlin and back is the best example for fighters, while the Luftwaffe player or players can use the feature, and this is historical if you wish to discuss Bf-109 interceptor pilots. Although for fun, ReArm and ReFuel could be used by many customers for less than "realistic"(tm) scenarios where P-51 Doras are allowed bases near the Luftwaffe bases.

Zeus:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">At some point you deviate from realism, the question is where do you draw that line? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The line of departure from realism(tm) is crossed with the initial decision to create a combat flight simulator for the PC. The faster we learn that, the less sad and depress we will be about our computer gaming. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LEXX_Luthor
04-05-2007, 10:29 PM
BBC...Chuck:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'd do neither, plus we will not have 300 planes in BoB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
We may easily see more than 300 plane types in BoB And Beyond.

Chivas
04-05-2007, 10:55 PM
Its all about having options to do whatever you wish for the best gaming experience.

In Multiplayer both side will probably meet mid channel most of the time with Jabos and Bomber doing end runs to hit some targets. For the realists recreating the Battle of Britain they will deal with the RAF ability to Refuel and Rearm in stride as thats the way it was. Everyone will find the server with the OPTIONs that most suits there style of play.

Offline no one should care if the player selects an OPTION to have his aircraft refuelled and rearmed, Immediately via the Refly, historically or anywhere inbetween.

~Salute~
Chivas

sailorman.jim
04-06-2007, 07:09 AM
Interesting thread here. Just a thought about this. What if there was a "Re-arm" option that simply took you out of the game for a specific period of time based upon the aircraft you were using?

Granted, this would not be as realistic as landing and chancing attack while on the ground. But it would be easy to program and that might be the key to convincing the developers to do it. They could even insert a random number generator to decide, Re-arm Successful, Destroyed on Ground, Damaged on Ground, etc. Then, when you decided to re-arm, you would have to take your chances on not getting back up.

What sayeth thou, group?

XyZspineZyX
04-06-2007, 07:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zeus-cat:
Your idea makes sense, but this not what the original post was about. They wanted the replenish option in THIS game. I agree 100% that it makes sense for BoB and your idea is an excellent way of handling it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did get going on BoB, but that's the only time we will see this, after all. This sim focuses on the individual sortie. The answer in this sim is simply multiple individual sorties on the same day- for example:

May 2nd 1942, 0600 to 0700 mission 1 begins and ends
May 2nd 1942, 0730 to 0830 mission 2 begins and ends
May 2nd 1942 0900 to 1000 mission 3 begins and ends

As individual missions, with a beginning and end, instead of:

Mission 1- fly land, rearm, take off fly mission 2 land rearm takeoff fly mission 3. It's not going to happen that way in this sim, the "day" must be scripted. It would be nice to have rearm refuel and replenish 02 in this sim, but it won't happen. 1946 is still bound by the design philosophy of Il2 Sturmovik, which concentrated on one flight per "day" because that's how the missions were scripted. It doesn't have to be one flight per "day", but that was the time convention used. Then when dynamic campaigns got generated, those missions failed to show multiple sorties on the same "day". For single player static campaigns, you or I or anyone could simply make multiple missions per day as much as we like. In dynamic campaigns, there must be a way to edit the day a mission is played on, but it seems unlikely it will get changed. We're on v 4.08, and we might maybe hopefully get 4.09- rearm and refuel is not coming for this sim unfortunately

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zeus-cat:
I still see a few problems though. What if you die? Do you get to join the queue or is there a timeout penalty?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well there would have to be some options depending on offline/online play and play style, such as dogfight, coop, online war, dynamic online campaign, etc, but sure, if you die: at the very least you go back to the squadron "pool", and at the end of the queue. If the queue isn't long enough to reflect aircraft turnaround time for the "dead" player, some sort of time penalty would be needed, so players just don't commit virtual suicide to warp back to base. It would also be my desire to see a "pilot pool", so if 401 Sqdn has 38 pilots and 22 planes, and 12 planes go out and 8 return, not only is 401 Sqdn down to only 16 planes to sortie, if they lost all eight pilots, any pilot that "died" could only rejoin that squadron's continuing battle if there was an available pilot "slot" not taken up by another player who hasn't played during the session, but is "in queue" for the next available 401 Sqdn plane- and again, that would be an option

In this way, if JG 2 was fighting 401 Sqdn and really kicking tail, suddenly they have acheived local air superiority in that area, since 401 Sqdn cannot put enough planes in the air during that time. Achieving, holding, and perhaps losing air superiority should be a factor, and we've never had that wrinkle of realism in the way I'd propose to do it. This way, JG 2 could be escorting He 111s all day, suddenly take out the RAF's defences in that area, and begin to strafe military targets instead of shooting down RAF fighters, at least temporarily. That's how it should be, isn't it? The German player's group fulfilled it's role and succeeded in defeating the RAF locally. I hate the idea that it's a static never ending evenly matched air battle

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zeus-cat:
And what if you fly as a German? Your option really only works if you fly British. There is no way to do an equivalent option for the Germans unless they can fly out to some imaginary line on the map and then respawn into a new plane. It doesn't seem quite fair (in terms of gameplay) to force a player flying a German aircraft to fly all the way back to France (or Denmark and Norway if they include Luftflotte 5). Would the German player spawn into a new wave of attacking aircraft?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What should the German player do? Hit escape as soon as he gets three kills and realizes he can never carry enough fuel to get back home, so he can teleport home with his victories? That doesn't seem very "fair" in terms of gameplay, either; it would allow the German player to run his Emil's tanks dry and hit "refly". As players, we balk at the idea of a 15 minute flight. We say we like simulation, but a 15 minute flight is "boring". What's the point of trying to simulate the Battle of Britain if the particular logistical, strategic, and tactical issues of the Battle are not taken into account? It would become a simulation of ideal circumstance, for both sides, rather than a simulation of actual circumstance. To me, this is like allowing the player unlimited ammo

Again, as in everything else, this would need to be an option based on type of play. But again, in order to actually simulate the Battle of Britain, players need to face the tactical and strategic elements that really existed. If you remove time over target constraints for Germany, then you're not really simulating the Battle of Britain, are you? I should think not. It was a real thing, they didn't carry the fuel to make a long stay. It affected what happened immensely

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zeus-cat:
At some point you deviate from realism, the question is where do you draw that line? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

On the options screen http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LEXX_Luthor
04-06-2007, 12:15 PM
sailorman.jim:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Interesting thread here. Just a thought about this. What if there was a "Re-arm" option that simply took you out of the game for a specific period of time based upon the aircraft you were using?

Granted, this would not be as realistic as landing and chancing attack while on the ground. But it would be easy to program and that might be the key to convincing the developers to do it. They could even insert a random number generator to decide, Re-arm Successful, Destroyed on Ground, Damaged on Ground, etc. Then, when you decided to re-arm, you would have to <span class="ev_code_yellow">take your chances</span> on not getting back up.

What sayeth thou, group? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I like your thinking -- abstracting the concept of taking the risk of sitting vulnerable to air attack while refitting on the ground or on the deck (carrier).

However, for me a crucial immersion factor is being there on the ground, or deck, waiting for refit, looking up at the sky in fear of spotting approaching aircraft dots in the distance, or relaxing on the deck and suddenly the carrier flak guns start popping off around you and you look up and see dive bombers dropping between the clouds -- the Japanese experience at MidWay. I had something like that happen to me during one of my Su-27 Flaker 1.0 "extended" missions. I designed it with such massive complexity and randomness (great mission editor) even I as player did not entirely know what would happen.

I was sitting on the airfield refitting my aircraft (Su-27) in the dark, after sunset during a long extended mission, and just happened to look up and saw about 10 tiny lights in the black sky above -- and there were no stars in that 1995 flight sim. In the few seconds I had to watch them, I didn't know what these lights were, as I'd never seen them before in this context in the game. The lights got brighter spread apart, moving faster until they fell around me on the airfield with massive fiery destruction. They were Kh-15 air launched ballistic missiles, launched from about 120km distance. I made that mission myself but the visual aspect of being attacked on the ground from the air took me by total surprise. I loved that sim ever since. I survived that airfield attack (Flaker 1.0 sim did not allow destroyed airfields to effect the player). But, on other similar occasions I was blown up or had aircraft damage while sitting on the airfield. Sometimes I saw it coming, sometimes I didn't. Its an amazingly immersive experience.

mynameisjacob7
04-07-2007, 09:48 AM
good to see that my question has created sucha constructive debate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Chivas
04-07-2007, 11:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisjacob7:
good to see that my question has created sucha constructive debate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This topic has a long history of mud slinging, the combatants are either to tired to bother or have seen the light. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif