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XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 07:51 PM
Poland 1939 - The Diary of Luftwaffe Atrocities

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/pol39/pol39.htm


Unlike the myths fostered in popular accounts of World War I, not all fighter pilots in World War II were "honorable Knights of the Air". Among the many reasons were human nature, pilots' discipline or lack thereof, and the "detachment" of mechanized war. Pilots of powerful aircraft were in a sense removed from seeing an enemy pilot being sawed in half by large caliber slugs or exploding cannon rounds. Bomber pilots could rarely see or know of the carnage they created when payloads hit targets.

It is well documented that some Allied pilots and even some aces shot at Axis pilots hanging in their parachutes, even as the Axis pilots shot at defenseless Allies. Some Polish pilots looked for cruel revenge after September 1939. The pilot of Pursuit Brigade (123. Eskadra), Corporal Eugeniusz Nowakiewicz battled in the French campaign of 1940 in with the Polish section of Groupe de Chasse II/7, led by Lt. Wladyslaw Goettel. On 4 June 1940, in Besancou area, Nowakiewicz succesfully attacked an He 111 and after crash landing he shot at the surviving German crew. On 15 June 1940, in Caumont-Toinville area, Nowakiewicz again got an enemy bomber, an Do 17 this time. Two German airmen bailed out, but the Polish fighter pilot killed one of them in the air, and the other second was 'shared' with French pilots after the crewman got to the ground.

In a later instance, an American Ninth Air Force ace of Polish ancestry shot an Me 262 Luftwaffe ace after destroying his jet. When the U.S. airman landed, he had his crew chief destroy the gun camera film. In a debriefing, the Squadron commander asked why the pilot (whose family had been killed by Germans) did what he did. The pilot explained that these were experten , the cream of the Luftwaffe crop. And if they were not killed, they'd simply reappear the very next day in another fighter, to kill more U. S. airmen.

The tone for total war against defenseless civilians and military personnel was set early... (Preface and English translating by John Crump - thanks!)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 September 1939, 4:50 - 5:30 a.m., Wielun city. On this morning, despite the complete lack of military installations in the city, and with the nearest Polish troops of the 28th Infantry Division situated southwest of Wielun, German bombers of I./KG76 (4. Luftflotte), commanded by Oblt. Walter Sigel, brutally bombed the center of the city. And, after releasing their bombs, Luftwaffe pilots shot at panicked, escaping civilians. Three waves of bombers, totalling 120 aircraft took part in the attack, dropping more than 70 tons of bombs. The effect of the raid was the killing of more than 1200 civilians, the injuring of thousands more (the city's population was about 16,000 people), and the destruction of about 70% of the city's buildings.

There are those who argue that members of the Luftwaffe held to a professional military code heralding back to the "Knights of the Air" of World War I. Yet, any such argument contradicts the experiences of several Polish fighter pilots, whose personal accounts are written here.

As one example, on 1 September 1939, in the Modlin area, about 16:30 , pilots of the Polish Pursuit Brigade encountered a group of forty German bombers escorted by twenty Bf 109 and Bf 110 fighters. During combat, Lt. Aleksander Gabszewicz was forced to bail out of his aircraft. While hanging in his parachute, Gabszewicz was shot at by a Bf 110. Second Lt. Tadeusz Sawicz, who was flying nearby, attacked the German plane and another Polish pilot, Wladyslaw Kiedrzynski spiraled around the defenseless Gabszewicz until he reached the ground.

In the same battle, pilots of 123. Fighter Eskadrille, flying obsolete PZL P.7a fighters, were surprised by Bf 110's of I/LG1 (commander Maj. Grabmann was wounded in a morning fight, so the unit was led this time by Hauptmann Schleif). Cpt. Mieczyslaw Olszewski, 123's commander, was quickly shot down and killed, his P.7 crashing near Legionow. Three other pilots shot down, bailed out and parachuted: Sec.Lt. Stanislaw Czternastek, Sec.Lt. Feliks Szyszka and cadet Antoni Danek. Only Czternastek safely reached the ground : Szyszka and Danek were attacked in the air. Strafed by a German fighter, Danek got down without injury. Szyszka wasn't so lucky, suffering 16 wounds. He was transported by civilians to a hospital. During that combat on 1 September 1939, I.(Z)/LG 1 escorted the He 111s of KG 27 and LG 1 against the airport of Warsaw. The Bf 110s claimed 5 PZL-fighters shot down - 3 by Hauptmann Fritz Schleif, one each by Unteroffizier Sturm and Unteroffizier Lauffs. More details about this combat you can discover in 1 September 1939 over Warsaw - The first air battle of WW2 story.

2 September 1939, about 16:00, Lodz area. Eight PZL fighters of III/6 Squadron clashed with 23 Bf 110's of I./ZG76. In the battle, Sec.Lt. Jan Dzwonek was shot down. Hanging in his parachute, he was attacked twice by a Bf 110. Apparently, the Luftwaffe pilot was so busy attacking the defenseless Dzwonek, that Corporal Jan Malinowski, flying an obsolete P.7 fighter, downed the German plane without any problem. See details in the story: Jan Dzwonek - within an ace of death.

3 September 1939, about 10:00 six PZL P-11c of 112. Eskadra Mysliwska (Fighter Eskadrille), leaded by commander of III/1 Dywizjon (Squadron) Cpt. Zdzislaw Krasnodebski took off against German Bf 110 fighters. In hard combat over Wyszkow city, Krasnodebski was forced to bail out. The German pilot who shot him down, aimed to finish his victim, shooting at Krasnodebski while he slowly glided down in his parachute. But Lt. Arsen Cebrzynski saw this deadly pass and the Luftwaffe pilot soon became a victim. Leutnant Barents, a veteran of "Legion Condor", bailed out safely, and became a POW.

This same day, 3 September 1939, 26th Obserwation Escadrille was evacuated from Malachowo to Balice airfield. Corporal Franciszek Ciepinski, flying an unarmed RWD-8 over Wisla river, was attacked by three Bf 109s. He managed to crash-land the damaged plane on the bank river, climbed out of the cockpit, yet still found himself to be a target. The Germans wanted more than an aerial victory and began hunting the pilot in strafing passes. Before Ciepinski could reach the safety of the forest, he had been hit in one leg.

6 September 1939, afternoon. A lone PZL P.23 "Karas" of the 34. Reconn Escadrille took off on patrol, in the area of Warta-Sieradz-Zdunska Wola. The crewman were: Lt. Edmund Gorecki (observer), Corporal Marian Pingot (pilot) and Corporal Jan Wilkowski (gunner). During their way back from the mission, over the village of Borecznia near Kolo city, they flew at 1500 meters altitude. Suddenly they were attacked by four Bf 109's. The "Karas" caught fire. Corporal Pingot was killed in the plane, but Lt. Gorecki continued to fly until he was down to 1000 meters. When he bailed out "Messers" shot and killed him in the air. Corporal Wilkowski witnessed this act, and because he bailed at the last moment, at only 300 meters, he injured his legs.

11 September 1939. The 53rd Observer Escadrille moved from Kaluszyn area to Brzesc, over the Bug river. In formation flew two "Czapla" and a single RWD-8 aircraft. About five kilometers west of Biala Podlaska the three planes were attacked by Luftwaffe twin-engined planes. The RWD-8 was downed and its crew, Sec.Lt. Stanislaw Hudowicz and Sec.Lt. Oskar Sobol were killed. One "Czapla" aircraft, piloted by Lt. Stanislaw Waszkiewicz was forced to land and here he was twice bombed(!) and strafed by machine gun fire.

13 September 1939, the town of Frampol , with a population of 3000, and without military or industrial targets, nor any Polish Army defenders, was practically annihiliated by Luftwaffe bombing practice. In the opinion of Luftwaffe analyst Harry Hohnewald: "Frampol was chosen as an experimental object, because test bombers, flying at low speed, weren't endangered by AA fire. Also, the centrally placed town hall was an ideal orientation point for the crews. We watched possibility of orientation after visible signs, and also the size of village, what guranteed that bombs neverthless fall down on Frampol. From one side it should make easier the note of probe, from second side it should confirm the efficiency of used bombs." (after Wolfgang Schreyer's book "Eyes on the sky.")
Luftwaffe documentation resource


Pretty sobering read. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 07:51 PM
Poland 1939 - The Diary of Luftwaffe Atrocities

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/pol39/pol39.htm


Unlike the myths fostered in popular accounts of World War I, not all fighter pilots in World War II were "honorable Knights of the Air". Among the many reasons were human nature, pilots' discipline or lack thereof, and the "detachment" of mechanized war. Pilots of powerful aircraft were in a sense removed from seeing an enemy pilot being sawed in half by large caliber slugs or exploding cannon rounds. Bomber pilots could rarely see or know of the carnage they created when payloads hit targets.

It is well documented that some Allied pilots and even some aces shot at Axis pilots hanging in their parachutes, even as the Axis pilots shot at defenseless Allies. Some Polish pilots looked for cruel revenge after September 1939. The pilot of Pursuit Brigade (123. Eskadra), Corporal Eugeniusz Nowakiewicz battled in the French campaign of 1940 in with the Polish section of Groupe de Chasse II/7, led by Lt. Wladyslaw Goettel. On 4 June 1940, in Besancou area, Nowakiewicz succesfully attacked an He 111 and after crash landing he shot at the surviving German crew. On 15 June 1940, in Caumont-Toinville area, Nowakiewicz again got an enemy bomber, an Do 17 this time. Two German airmen bailed out, but the Polish fighter pilot killed one of them in the air, and the other second was 'shared' with French pilots after the crewman got to the ground.

In a later instance, an American Ninth Air Force ace of Polish ancestry shot an Me 262 Luftwaffe ace after destroying his jet. When the U.S. airman landed, he had his crew chief destroy the gun camera film. In a debriefing, the Squadron commander asked why the pilot (whose family had been killed by Germans) did what he did. The pilot explained that these were experten , the cream of the Luftwaffe crop. And if they were not killed, they'd simply reappear the very next day in another fighter, to kill more U. S. airmen.

The tone for total war against defenseless civilians and military personnel was set early... (Preface and English translating by John Crump - thanks!)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 September 1939, 4:50 - 5:30 a.m., Wielun city. On this morning, despite the complete lack of military installations in the city, and with the nearest Polish troops of the 28th Infantry Division situated southwest of Wielun, German bombers of I./KG76 (4. Luftflotte), commanded by Oblt. Walter Sigel, brutally bombed the center of the city. And, after releasing their bombs, Luftwaffe pilots shot at panicked, escaping civilians. Three waves of bombers, totalling 120 aircraft took part in the attack, dropping more than 70 tons of bombs. The effect of the raid was the killing of more than 1200 civilians, the injuring of thousands more (the city's population was about 16,000 people), and the destruction of about 70% of the city's buildings.

There are those who argue that members of the Luftwaffe held to a professional military code heralding back to the "Knights of the Air" of World War I. Yet, any such argument contradicts the experiences of several Polish fighter pilots, whose personal accounts are written here.

As one example, on 1 September 1939, in the Modlin area, about 16:30 , pilots of the Polish Pursuit Brigade encountered a group of forty German bombers escorted by twenty Bf 109 and Bf 110 fighters. During combat, Lt. Aleksander Gabszewicz was forced to bail out of his aircraft. While hanging in his parachute, Gabszewicz was shot at by a Bf 110. Second Lt. Tadeusz Sawicz, who was flying nearby, attacked the German plane and another Polish pilot, Wladyslaw Kiedrzynski spiraled around the defenseless Gabszewicz until he reached the ground.

In the same battle, pilots of 123. Fighter Eskadrille, flying obsolete PZL P.7a fighters, were surprised by Bf 110's of I/LG1 (commander Maj. Grabmann was wounded in a morning fight, so the unit was led this time by Hauptmann Schleif). Cpt. Mieczyslaw Olszewski, 123's commander, was quickly shot down and killed, his P.7 crashing near Legionow. Three other pilots shot down, bailed out and parachuted: Sec.Lt. Stanislaw Czternastek, Sec.Lt. Feliks Szyszka and cadet Antoni Danek. Only Czternastek safely reached the ground : Szyszka and Danek were attacked in the air. Strafed by a German fighter, Danek got down without injury. Szyszka wasn't so lucky, suffering 16 wounds. He was transported by civilians to a hospital. During that combat on 1 September 1939, I.(Z)/LG 1 escorted the He 111s of KG 27 and LG 1 against the airport of Warsaw. The Bf 110s claimed 5 PZL-fighters shot down - 3 by Hauptmann Fritz Schleif, one each by Unteroffizier Sturm and Unteroffizier Lauffs. More details about this combat you can discover in 1 September 1939 over Warsaw - The first air battle of WW2 story.

2 September 1939, about 16:00, Lodz area. Eight PZL fighters of III/6 Squadron clashed with 23 Bf 110's of I./ZG76. In the battle, Sec.Lt. Jan Dzwonek was shot down. Hanging in his parachute, he was attacked twice by a Bf 110. Apparently, the Luftwaffe pilot was so busy attacking the defenseless Dzwonek, that Corporal Jan Malinowski, flying an obsolete P.7 fighter, downed the German plane without any problem. See details in the story: Jan Dzwonek - within an ace of death.

3 September 1939, about 10:00 six PZL P-11c of 112. Eskadra Mysliwska (Fighter Eskadrille), leaded by commander of III/1 Dywizjon (Squadron) Cpt. Zdzislaw Krasnodebski took off against German Bf 110 fighters. In hard combat over Wyszkow city, Krasnodebski was forced to bail out. The German pilot who shot him down, aimed to finish his victim, shooting at Krasnodebski while he slowly glided down in his parachute. But Lt. Arsen Cebrzynski saw this deadly pass and the Luftwaffe pilot soon became a victim. Leutnant Barents, a veteran of "Legion Condor", bailed out safely, and became a POW.

This same day, 3 September 1939, 26th Obserwation Escadrille was evacuated from Malachowo to Balice airfield. Corporal Franciszek Ciepinski, flying an unarmed RWD-8 over Wisla river, was attacked by three Bf 109s. He managed to crash-land the damaged plane on the bank river, climbed out of the cockpit, yet still found himself to be a target. The Germans wanted more than an aerial victory and began hunting the pilot in strafing passes. Before Ciepinski could reach the safety of the forest, he had been hit in one leg.

6 September 1939, afternoon. A lone PZL P.23 "Karas" of the 34. Reconn Escadrille took off on patrol, in the area of Warta-Sieradz-Zdunska Wola. The crewman were: Lt. Edmund Gorecki (observer), Corporal Marian Pingot (pilot) and Corporal Jan Wilkowski (gunner). During their way back from the mission, over the village of Borecznia near Kolo city, they flew at 1500 meters altitude. Suddenly they were attacked by four Bf 109's. The "Karas" caught fire. Corporal Pingot was killed in the plane, but Lt. Gorecki continued to fly until he was down to 1000 meters. When he bailed out "Messers" shot and killed him in the air. Corporal Wilkowski witnessed this act, and because he bailed at the last moment, at only 300 meters, he injured his legs.

11 September 1939. The 53rd Observer Escadrille moved from Kaluszyn area to Brzesc, over the Bug river. In formation flew two "Czapla" and a single RWD-8 aircraft. About five kilometers west of Biala Podlaska the three planes were attacked by Luftwaffe twin-engined planes. The RWD-8 was downed and its crew, Sec.Lt. Stanislaw Hudowicz and Sec.Lt. Oskar Sobol were killed. One "Czapla" aircraft, piloted by Lt. Stanislaw Waszkiewicz was forced to land and here he was twice bombed(!) and strafed by machine gun fire.

13 September 1939, the town of Frampol , with a population of 3000, and without military or industrial targets, nor any Polish Army defenders, was practically annihiliated by Luftwaffe bombing practice. In the opinion of Luftwaffe analyst Harry Hohnewald: "Frampol was chosen as an experimental object, because test bombers, flying at low speed, weren't endangered by AA fire. Also, the centrally placed town hall was an ideal orientation point for the crews. We watched possibility of orientation after visible signs, and also the size of village, what guranteed that bombs neverthless fall down on Frampol. From one side it should make easier the note of probe, from second side it should confirm the efficiency of used bombs." (after Wolfgang Schreyer's book "Eyes on the sky.")
Luftwaffe documentation resource


Pretty sobering read. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 07:57 PM
Germans were burning civilian people alive by millions. So I suggest you get over combat kills like this.

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 08:07 PM
Well absolutely none of this surprises me. I have always known the reality of war is no `sim` or game.

War is simply ugly. Sometimes it`s good that we are all reminded.



But thanx for the interesting read, progrmr.

"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 08:12 PM
It's not that suprising,really...war isn't pretty.

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 08:14 PM
no, not very surprising - but it sure would suck to have bailed out of your plane only to get strafed in your chute!

I'm sure pilots on all sides of the war did this - but to read about it from the pilot perspective is a bit disturbing.

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 08:18 PM
That site appears to have quite a bit o good readin. Check it out: http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/aces.htm

And yes, war is always ugly and no one ever truly wins. I'm sure other things happened quite frequently that make a strafed chute look like patty cake.

<div align="center">
http://www.watchhilldesign.com/posted/P39Blind.jpg
</div>

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 08:24 PM
Yeah. I remember there once was a thread in the German forum about the "German knights" never shooting at chutes or strafing downed pilots, other than the imperialistic Americans for example. I was about to post the link to that page, but then I wondered why I continued to bother with luftwhiners and revisionists at all and thought "let them die in their stupidity, they believe what they want to and you can't do jack about it".

=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

Message Edited on 08/05/0307:25PM by Heart_C

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 08:29 PM
You're not suppose to shoot paracutists? One of my favorite quick missison is to fly around with the Il-3M picking 'em off with those 37mm cannons. No fair shooting the paracutes, you've gotta aim for the man! Really interesting seeing a former pilot covered in a big orange ball of flame. 8^)

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 09:05 PM
I have no wish to sully or belittle the reality of brutal warfare and what the REAL MEN had to go thru, but on a similar `simulation point`...

I was in a dogfight against a Focke Wolf on the net. He Z & B me till i was smoking and heading for the ground. I was quite impressed by his shooting since he was amazingly accurate.

Anyway, I crashlanded and bailed. Just as I was running he strafed me and killed me on the ground! I couldn`t believe it! It musta been a fluke shot I thought. Then he said:
`Where you going?`

I never complained. But that was the first (and only time) I`ve been killed outside my plane. Personally I think it`s really sucks.

"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 09:13 PM
Shouldn't you get kicked from a server if you do this?

I thought there was a strict 'honor code' about this within IL-2 games ??

I guess there are bad apples in every game. I've never played online yet (fear of getting shot down every second /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ) so I can't say it happens alot or not...

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 09:17 PM
Well it was the ONLY time I`ve seen it in my 2 years of flying on the net. Not seen it since. I`m sure most wouldn`t do it.

"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 09:33 PM
Was it a scripted server where pilot's lives count?

Nic

http://nicolas10.freeservers.com/images/et.jpg


OK I -->[]

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 09:43 PM
if it's a scripter server and the pilot lands back in his own territory, i shoot him in his chute or on the ground. but that's only because it's a game; i doubt i would have the guts to shoot someone like that in real life.

if it's not worth shooting the pilot (i.e. the server isn't keeping track of pilots lives or if the pilot lands in enemy territory and a pilot life will be lost anyway) i don't shoot him because it wouldn't help anything.

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 09:49 PM
Thanks....an interesting read.

But nine months later during the Battle of Britain no such incidents as far as I'm aware were seen....yet the same German crews were involved.

Why was this???

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 10:01 PM
No it wasn`t a scripted server. It was a basic DF server with icons on friendly but not enemy planes. There were only about 4 of us fighting I think. 2 vs 2.


I popped on it and avoided a B & Z attack on take off. Then I was twisting and turning for ages avoiding the FW`s constant B & Zs. e was using that `stretched` FW (the `44-45` one, dunno name), very fast plane. I was in LA7.

"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 10:08 PM
Well logically I would promote shooting at people in chutes in real life. I mean a pilot is much more important than a plane. Imagine if someone had shot one of the LW experten when they first went down. Letting them come back and fight again only lets more of your people get killed by experienced ennemies.

But on the other hand on a personal level I don't think I would ever be able to do it, and I would hope my ennemies would do the same with me and let me float to the ground.

Nic

http://nicolas10.freeservers.com/images/et.jpg


OK I -->[]

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 10:11 PM
Timmothias wrote:



"if it's a scripter server and the pilot lands back in his own territory, i shoot him in his chute or on the ground. but that's only because it's a game; i doubt i would have the guts to shoot someone like that in real life. "


It don`t take guts to shoot a guy in a parachute. Anyway, I wouldn`t shoot a guy in his chute unless he`d done it to me (so he knows what it`s like). Unfortunately I never got the chance to serve the same cold dish to my strafer. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 10:17 PM
progrmr wrote:
- Shouldn't you get kicked from a server if you do
- this?
-
- I thought there was a strict 'honor code' about this
- within IL-2 games ??
-
- I guess there are bad apples in every game. I've
- never played online yet (fear of getting shot down
- every second

That's silly, booting somebody cause they strafed you. If that's how somebody gets their yuks, who cares? You just respawn.

As for shooting pilots in their chutes: while it did happen in the Western Euro theater it didn't happen nearly as much as on the Eastern front and in the Pacific theater. If fact it was probably more likely that American pilots would shoot a LW pilot in his chute than the other way around.

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 10:18 PM
MB_Avro wrote:
-
- Thanks....an interesting read.
-
- But nine months later during the Battle of Britain
- no such incidents as far as I'm aware were
- seen....yet the same German crews were involved.
-
- Why was this???
-
-



Well, I'm looking into this, but found this so far:

The Battle of Britain is probably the most researched and written-about aerial campaign in history. It appears from all that has been said that German pilots over Britain often (perhaps routinely) shot at RAF pilots in their chutes. RAF pilots generally did not retaliate, since they knew that the parachuting pilot would be captured and wouldn't ever be up to trouble them again. (I suspect there were exceptions, especially as time went on and friends had been killed.) However, the RAF made a point of shooting
down German rescue aircraft in the channel and otherwise ensuring that German pilots did not live to fight again.


I'm sure it happened on all sides during the war.

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 11:34 PM
Yes it happened on both sides I am aware of an American ace who killed himself in the attempt to strafe the crew of a German aircraft he had just downed.

War is ugly and cruel no matter which side you are fighting from.

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 11:38 PM
progrmr wrote:
- Well, I'm looking into this, but found this so far:
-
- The Battle of Britain is probably the most
- researched and written-about aerial campaign in
- history. It appears from all that has been said that
- German pilots over Britain often (perhaps routinely)
- shot at RAF pilots in their chutes. RAF pilots
- generally did not retaliate, since they knew that
- the parachuting pilot would be captured and wouldn't
- ever be up to trouble them again. (I suspect there
- were exceptions, especially as time went on and
- friends had been killed.) However, the RAF made a
- point of shooting
- down German rescue aircraft in the channel and
- otherwise ensuring that German pilots did not live
- to fight again.
-
-
- I'm sure it happened on all sides during the war.

It's completely logical and happened a lot everywhere. War is about killing the enemy. If you don't kill him, it's possible he'll come back and kill your fellow airmen. Only deluded war-romanticits think it didn't happen.

And yes, the Luftwaffe, the "Nazi arm" becuse the service was created by the Nazis in the thirties, was involved in atrocitites from the very start of the WWII. Even before: "Guernica" anyone?

Freycinet
<center>
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/delfin/SD/2001/flight/spitbf109/ellehammer-crop-for-il2-forum-reduced.jpg</center>
<center>My Il-2 web-site:</center><center><BIG>"Za Rodinu!"</BIG> (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/delfin/SD/2001/flight/il-2/index.htm)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 09:20 PM
I disagree with the previous comments about the Battle of Britain...

Considering the numbers of aircraft involved and the 4 month (?) length of the battle there is no specific documentation or facts relating to either side shooting pilots hanging from parachutes. This obviously differs from the Polish campaign earlier.

The shooting down of german rescue planes in the English Channel was ordered by Churchill as he feared that they were providing military intelligence.....war was hell but no record of shooting up pilots/aircrew by either side.

There is one documented episode of a bf109 pilot with engine trouble being escorted across the channel (kanal) by a Hurricane pilot who then saluted and flew away. In the words of the bf109 pilot..."This would never have happenned on the Russian front".

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 09:57 PM
Here is a comparison you all might want to think about. A squad of infantry knock a tank out of commission, no Holywood fireball, just a busted track or engine or gear box. The crew bails out. Do the infantry men hold their fire, even though they don't have a chance to capture the crew because of combat circumstances? I think that unless that crew comes out with their hands up and the infantry unit can capture them without being in harms way, that crew gets gunned down.

I got to agree that pilots are more valuable than planes and that the way of war is to kill the enemy before and more often than he kills you. Should pilots have thought twice about strafing and bombing enemy airfields because they were killing helpless pilots? Accounts of pilots strafing downed crews and crews in their chutes goes to show that at least some pilots were'nt desensitized by mech warfare. They wanted to kill the enemy, not just break his machine.

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:16 AM
"War is hell."
-U. S. Grant

*****Only left handed people are in their right minds.*****

<center>http://www.ghosts.com/images/wing.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:30 AM
BillRK wrote:
- Here is a comparison you all might want to think
- about. A squad of infantry knock a tank out of
- commission, no Holywood fireball, just a busted
- track or engine or gear box. The crew bails out. Do
- the infantry men hold their fire, even though they
- don't have a chance to capture the crew because of
- combat circumstances? I think that unless that crew
- comes out with their hands up and the infantry unit
- can capture them without being in harms way, that
- crew gets gunned down.
-
- I got to agree that pilots are more valuable than
- planes and that the way of war is to kill the enemy
- before and more often than he kills you. Should
- pilots have thought twice about strafing and bombing
- enemy airfields because they were killing helpless
- pilots? Accounts of pilots strafing downed crews and
- crews in their chutes goes to show that at least
- some pilots were'nt desensitized by mech warfare.
- They wanted to kill the enemy, not just break his
- machine.
-
-


I agree 100% - killing the enemy is the goal of warfare. Screw honor, there is no such thing on the battlefield. Only the living, and the dead.

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 02:31 AM
Hmm Polish authors ... I bet there are Russian authors writing about German atrocities, German Authors writing about British atrocities, British authors writing about Italian atrocities ... someone's always got an ax to grind dont they /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

<center>http://www.medals.org.uk/united-kingdom/images/uk654.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 03:00 AM
h009291 wrote:
- Hmm Polish authors ... I bet there are Russian
- authors writing about German atrocities, German
- Authors writing about British atrocities, British
- authors writing about Italian atrocities ...
- someone's always got an ax to grind dont they /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
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there are russian authors writing about russian atrocities/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Russian ace Pokryshkin in his memuars wrote how they were using prop. blades to cut german soldiers heads after they were used all ammo for straffing/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 04:00 AM
I was in the USAF in the 1980s. We were trained that pilots and other aircrew were not to be shot at if they had bailed out and were under a parachute. The reason was that their weapon (the airplane) had been destroyed and they were not an immediate threat. Paratroopers on the other hand are legitimate targets in their parachutes as they are in the process of attacking.

I beleive these are the rules per the Geneva Convention, but I can't be sure about that. Anyway, I'm sure pilots from all countries violated the rules.