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View Full Version : Historical Graphs FW 190 vs Spit



Sintubin
02-05-2006, 09:19 AM
These charts are from tests of a captured Fw190G1 done by the USAAF. The aircraft was modifies by removal of the wing pylons into what the USAAF thought was an "Fw190A4-like" confuguration. It's perfromance was below LW calculated figures for a full fighters version but, you still see how it gave the Spitfires trouble. The engine setup would probably be similar to jabo versions of the Fw190A4 (maybe Crumpp will comment on that).
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/EB-104WITHSPITFIRES.gif

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/EB-104CLIMBWITHSPITs.gif

AustinPowers_
02-05-2006, 10:45 AM
Cool. Very close to ingame figures. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Thank to Faustnik, no? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Sintubin
02-05-2006, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by AustinPowers_:
Cool. Very close to ingame figures. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Yeah right read closser http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AustinPowers_
02-05-2006, 10:49 AM
I did read it, and guess what, its very close to in game performance.

biggs222
02-05-2006, 10:56 AM
i sorry but where do u get 15lb boost.. never seen that EVER in all the books ive read... should be 18lb boost. where did u get your info please.

another note... there is no Merlin 61 engine mkIX in the game we have the Merlin66 mkIX with 18lb boost. the merlin 66 climbs slightly better (slightly) and its top speed is 408-412 mph @ 22,000 ft... your chart means nothing.

AustinPowers_
02-05-2006, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by biggs222:
i sorry but where do u get 15lb boost.. never seen that EVER in all the books ive read... should be 18lb boost. where did u get your info please.



ask and yea shall receive

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/bf274.html

AustinPowers_
02-05-2006, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by biggs222:
your chart means nothing.

Disagree. If you stretch your imagination a little, you can compare it to in game figures for the SpitVb and c and FW-190A4/A5.
But you have to use your imagination a little, to meet the criteria as best as you can.

biggs222
02-05-2006, 11:50 AM
why not just re-make teh chart using the merlin66 data.. or better yet why not make a "preview chart" of what the merlin66 with 25lb boost will perform like...

its a nice chart dont get me wrong pretty colors and all but it doesnt apply to the game.. not even to the mkV or LFmkV...

imagination is fun but actual data serves this purpose better.

AKA_TAGERT
02-05-2006, 11:55 AM
so what part of "Please do not copy or redistribute" did you not understand?

quiet_man
02-05-2006, 12:00 PM
what fuel did they use?

at one of the better 190 discussions it was noted that alied test pilots often reported "rough running engine" indicating that the engine had trouble with the fuel used.

this might be the reason the measured performance was lower than german data.

quiet_man

AustinPowers_
02-05-2006, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by biggs222:

not even to the mkV or LFmkV...


Errmm.. care to explain in what way?

skycaptain_1
02-05-2006, 12:05 PM
another note... there is no Merlin 61 engine mkIX in the game

According to hardballs aircraft viewer we have a merlin 61 in the MkIXe 1944 (standard wing)

AustinPowers_
02-05-2006, 12:06 PM
Hardball is mistaken.

biggs222
02-05-2006, 12:53 PM
wait wait... austin, so ur saying that the merlin61 can be compared to the LFmkV's merlin45M?.... you have to be kidding.

but seriously id like to see the mkIX 25lb boost spec on a chart say vs a 190A-5 or a 109G6 or G14.

VW-IceFire
02-05-2006, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by skycaptain_1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">another note... there is no Merlin 61 engine mkIX in the game

According to hardballs aircraft viewer we have a merlin 61 in the MkIXe 1944 (standard wing) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Very much mistaken.

All Spitfire IX's in game use the Merlin 66 thus being a Spitfire IX-B unofficially (in pilots memories) or official RAF designation being Spitfire LF.IXc or LF.IXe. One exception being the Spitfire HF.IXe which uses a Merlin 70 engine. The Spitfire F.IX or IX-A was an early variant of the Spitfire IX which used a Merlin 61 engine of which about 300 were built and used in service in 1942 and later.

The difference between the Merlin 61 and 66 was mostly in the supercharger. The 66 was tuned to switch to its second stage at a lower altitude and therfore allow the Spitfire IX to be faster than the captured FW190A at all combat altitudes. The Merlin 61 variant of the IX was only faster at certain altitudes swapping back and forth for the FW190A by a few MPH here and there.

biggs222
02-05-2006, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by skycaptain_1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">another note... there is no Merlin 61 engine mkIX in the game

According to hardballs aircraft viewer we have a merlin 61 in the MkIXe 1944 (standard wing) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Very much mistaken.


All Spitfire IX's in game use the Merlin 66 thus being a Spitfire IX-B unofficially (in pilots memories) or official RAF designation being Spitfire LF.IXc or LF.IXe. One exception being the Spitfire HF.IXe which uses a Merlin 70 engine. The Spitfire F.IX or IX-A was an early variant of the Spitfire IX which used a Merlin 61 engine of which about 300 were built and used in service in 1942 and later.

The difference between the Merlin 61 and 66 was mostly in the supercharger. The 66 was tuned to switch to its second stage at a lower altitude and therfore allow the Spitfire IX to be faster than the captured FW190A at all combat altitudes. The Merlin 61 variant of the IX was only faster at certain altitudes swapping back and forth for the FW190A by a few MPH here and there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


thanks Ice you wrote what i was too lazy to http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

sorry to change it up a bit but will the Tempest really do 400+ at 16000 ft?

ImpStarDuece
02-05-2006, 03:30 PM
Ok, there are several different types of Spitfire IX, all with different performance.

If any of you are vaugely interested, here are the basic differences:



F. Mk IX

Merlin 61 engine, 1,535 hp, +15 lbs/sq.in boost

320 mph at 0 feet
380 mph at 15,000 feet
405mph at 27,000 feet

Peak RoC: 3,800 feet/minute

Introduced July, 1942

The basic Mk IX that took the fight back to the FW-190 and the allowed Spitfire to roughly regain equality against the newer LuftWaffe machines. Faster and better climbing at all altitudes than the Spitfire V, with very similar turn performance.


This is the variant that the original posters graphs are based off (actually, I think they are plaguarised. It was Fasutnik over at the FW Consortium who originally put them together). They are not representative of any Mk IX we have in the game.



F. Mk IX

Merlin 63 engine, 1,710 hp, +18lbs/sp.in.

325 mph at sea-level
385 mph at 16,000 feet
410 mph at 27,000 feet.

Peak RoC 4,100 feet/minute

Introduced to service in December 1942

An improved F. Mk. IX with an uprated Merlin 63 engine, allowing higher sustained boost pressure. Around 5 mph faster than the F. IX at all altitudes, and about 200-300 feet/ minute better in the climb.

The Merlin 63 engined variant was the most common type of F. Mk IX, with around 700 of 1,250 F. Mk IXs recieving the Merlin 63 engine.



L.F. Mk IX

Merlin 66 engine, 1,720 hp, +18lbs/sq.in.

335 mph at 0 feet
385 mph at 10,000 feet
408 mph at 22,000 feet.

Peak RoC 4,700 feet/minute

The L.F. Mk IX was a standard Mk IX airframe with a strengthened Merlin 66 and dropped supercharger heights. Designed to perform best at low-medium altitudes up to 25,000 feet after the airwar in Europe began to drop away from 30,000 foot engagements. Called the Mk IX-B by pilots. The official L.F. designation can be though of as 'Low Fighter'

The L.F. IX was the most produced IX, accounting for about 4,000 production airframes, or about 20% of total Spitfire production. The similar Mk XVI with the Packard Merlin 266 has almost identical performance.

Introduced in to service in March, 1943

This is the fighter that we currently have in IL2. Comparisons should not be made with earlier variants.



H.F. Mk IX

Merlin 70 engine, 1,710 hp, +18lbs/sq.in

330 mph at 0 feet
396 mph at 15,500 feet
416 mph at 27,000 feet

Introduced into service in October, 1943

A high altitude Spitfire IX with a Merlin 70 with different reduction gear rations and higher supercharger heights. Best performance was in the 15 to 35 thousand foot range. It was the fastest Mk IX varaint, capable of over 400 mph at 30,000 feet and 365 mph at 40,000 feet.

There were only some 400 Spitfire H.F. IX made. The move towards tactical operations by the RAF, the drop in height of the European airwar, the availability of the pressurised Mk VII and the incoming Mk XIV all limited H.F> IX production.

This is one of the variants we have in the game.



The graphs are based of an early F. Mk IX, with a Merlin 61 rated at +15lbs. These account for the first 550 or so Mk IXs produced, out of ~5,650 total production. It does not represent what we have in game, being some 15 mph slower below 15,000 feet and around 900-1,000 feet/minute slower in the climb.

AustinPowers_
02-05-2006, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by biggs222:
wait wait... austin, so ur saying that the merlin61 can be compared to the LFmkV's merlin45M?.... you have to be kidding.


I am saying

The RL MKVb @ +9 boost can be compared with the ingame MKVb @ boost 9, and The RL Vc @ 16 boost with the In game Vc at 16 boost.

I don't know where any confusion could arise. The Merlin 61 addition to the graph is purely academic.
Why do you not like its performance being plotted on the graph?

skycaptain_1
02-05-2006, 03:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:

quote:
Originally posted by skycaptain_1:

quote:
another note... there is no Merlin 61 engine mkIX in the game


According to hardballs aircraft viewer we have a merlin 61 in the MkIXe 1944 (standard wing)

Very much mistaken.


All Spitfire IX's in game use the Merlin 66 thus being a Spitfire IX-B unofficially (in pilots memories) or official RAF designation being Spitfire LF.IXc or LF.IXe. One exception being the Spitfire HF.IXe which uses a Merlin 70 engine. The Spitfire F.IX or IX-A was an early variant of the Spitfire IX which used a Merlin 61 engine of which about 300 were built and used in service in 1942 and later.

The difference between the Merlin 61 and 66 was mostly in the supercharger. The 66 was tuned to switch to its second stage at a lower altitude and therfore allow the Spitfire IX to be faster than the captured FW190A at all combat altitudes. The Merlin 61 variant of the IX was only faster at certain altitudes swapping back and forth for the FW190A by a few MPH here and there.


Thanks for that...I thought Hardballs utility was accurate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Just as an aside, how did you find out what engines we have in the spits - the ingame object viewer doesn't have them listed <--anoying!

faustnik
02-05-2006, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
The graphs are based of an early F. Mk IX, with a Merlin 61 rated at +15lbs. These account for the first 550 or so Mk IXs produced, out of ~5,650 total production. It does not represent what we have in game, being some 15 mph slower below 15,000 feet and around 900-1,000 feet/minute slower in the climb.

That is exactly right. I did not intend these to be representative of the Fw190s and Spitfires in IL-2/PF, they were for historical discussion.

To be honest, I would appreciate if these graphs were left in the discussions that they were intended for, and not used for agruements in ORR (although Sintubin did not start this as an arguement or complaint thread). Oleg has received all of the original historical charts that he would require to make any changes to PF that he finds necessary.

Buzzsaw-
02-05-2006, 08:35 PM
Salute

Better if you post the original charts.

biggs222
02-05-2006, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by AustinPowers_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by biggs222:
wait wait... austin, so ur saying that the merlin61 can be compared to the LFmkV's merlin45M?.... you have to be kidding.


I am saying

The RL MKVb @ +9 boost can be compared with the ingame MKVb @ boost 9, and The RL Vc @ 16 boost with the In game Vc at 16 boost.

I don't know where any confusion could arise. The Merlin 61 addition to the graph is purely academic.
Why do you not like its performance being plotted on the graph? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh... i thought u were saying that you could use ur "imagination" to compare the ingame LFmkV to the data here on the merlin61... i was like whu? that makes 0 sence.. but now i understand.