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View Full Version : Assassins V.S Templars!



Turkiye96
07-30-2011, 08:17 AM
Have you ever wondered what the Templars actually want to do with the Apple and how exactly it would effect the world?

The Assassin's stand for ''freedom'' and individualism, even at the cost of a flawed humanity. They believe that if the life of 1 ( a ''bad'' person) saves the life of many, than they should be delt with.

The Templars believe in a controlled world where everyone is much similar ( this goes against the our general description of ''freedom'') however this would ensure a perfect utopia ( or near perfect) and provide peace.

personally i wouldn't mind being mind-controlled to be very nice to everyone, be a good person and know everone else will be like that too.

however we have seen the Templars as brutal yet the reason for that is because the turned to athiests after they found the apple and so they didn't think there would be any consequences to doing bad stuff, and they were willing to do anything to achieve world peace... just like the Assassin's with their goals ( we should not let the Templars brutality play a factor in this, just which ideology is less flawed)

CRUDFACE
07-30-2011, 08:26 AM
Woah, not every Templar is an atheist, and I think they're behavior has fluctuated between games. In ACB and 2 they were just bad to be bad. In AC1, they had more complicated reasons for doing what they did. Then again, when it comes to free will, assassins, gods and others will put a leash on it.

But if being mind controlled will be bring out the best in me and get me to become the best that I can be then "yes".

LightRey
07-30-2011, 08:39 AM
I think the templars are wrong, because of one simple reason. They think that order is what's good for humanity, but I doubt that. I'm not saying there should be a complete lack of order, but all going in the same direction is very dangerous, because if we (or rather the templars) are wrong, we're all dead.
A little chaos creates a buffer for failure.

CRUDFACE
07-30-2011, 10:02 AM
when I think of order, I think of all the things people do instead of bettering themselves or at the most not degrading themselves further. But like many things, I agree with the ideology, not the people as they will of course abuse it as someone (upper echelons of the templar order) will not be mine controlled and abuse the living crap out of it.


Originally posted by LightRey:
I think the templars are wrong, because of one simple reason. They think that order is what's good for humanity, but I doubt that. I'm not saying there should be a complete lack of order, but all going in the same direction is very dangerous, because if we (or rather the templars) are wrong, we're all dead.
A little chaos creates a buffer for failure.

This reminded me of Dune, where we needed to be scattered and not under the rule of any one person or group in order to reach a higher stage and expansion into the universe as a whole. And you know, knowing the future kind of sucking in a way.

k20ml
07-30-2011, 10:13 AM
I voted both. I believe that the Templars share the same goal with the Assassins. But the means of achieving the goal between the two parties are vastly different. And the consequences of each actions can/will outwardly seem extreme.

The Assassins clandestinely fight for freedom for all mankind. Inequality, war, famine, injustice and chaos will eventually reveal itself again and again if one person/group(neither assassins nor templars) is motivated enough to capitalize this privilege. And then the Assassin order is once again obliged to repeat the assassinations. The assassinations need not occur if Templars were let alone with their "original" motives.

The Templars publicly fight for equality and peace but present a different front that approaches the outline of the goal. The Templars, although secret in nature, present themselves as religion, philosophy, law and authority. But as time went by, newer generations of Templars were led astray from the primary intention of the order. The newer generations wanted control and dominion, and because of their preexisting power in the society, they were able to achieve control by barbaric means.

Al mualim did not betray the Assassin order IMO. This is because he sought peace but saw the flaw in the assassin ways. I bet he made a deal with the Templars that he will join them as long as he will be assured that peace will come upon the Holy Land. But instead he saw war between the Muslims and Christians. So he sent out Altair to slowly bring down the Templar order so Al mualim can end the outrage. Feel free to correct me. That was just my own deduction.

SleezeRocker
07-30-2011, 11:22 AM
Communism or Anarchy....hmmm

I choose the one that let's me listen to classic rock, let's me run aorund in rooftops in colorful robes and easily ID by all the shanks im carrying http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif lol

xCr0wnedNorris
07-30-2011, 01:17 PM
To quote Al Mualim (who

*SPOILERS* ironically is a Templar *END SPOILERS*)

"Peace is something to be learned, to be obtained."

I think that Human Beings will eventually be capable to put aside petty differences and learn to work together for the benefit of all, a 'greater good' if you will. We simply need to find the perfect mix of sense of individuality and community. To be united, not under a religion, country, sex, race, etc., but as a species. Now if people would stop being so ignant...

Animuses
07-30-2011, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by t260z:
Woah, not every Templar is an atheist, and I think they're behavior has fluctuated between games. In ACB and 2 they were just bad to be bad.
Don't put AC2 and ACB in the same category. The Templars in AC2 wanted what the Templars in AC wanted. They just weren't so philosophical about it.
Also, not all Templar has this view. Take Madj Addin for example, he wanted to kill because he could.

Turkiye96
07-30-2011, 02:11 PM
Personally, while current society does look down upon in im all for taking the rights and ''freedom'' of people. almost all goverments do this anyway... and the best 1 at it is America! they all say people are given rights and have the freedom to do whatever they want, but you dont! you have to pay taxes, you have to obey the law, being bad is frowned upon and violence is seen as barbaric and then people are against you. the only place you can truely be free is if you are isolated completely.

let me use an example, if you are ''free'' to do anything, lets say you kill this guy you hate a lot, you will suffer no consequences and live on. However lets say you were programmed not have the destructive and evil aspects of human nature you would never hate anyone and they wouldn't hate you, you would live a happy life. We as as humans are totally selfish warmongering evil lust endulging beings ( who want to be good but cant as it is just too beneficial for us to be bad)... thats just our nature, and thus we shouldn't deserve the freedom to be such complete a$$e$. law tries to take the freedom of those how have done bad but thats too late! the bad deed is already done. the only sure way to deal with the problem is to actually change our nature so we are good, its what we want anyway.

and as said some have said i do agree that on some fronts we will not develop, but when i say that you would be controlled, i dont mean you will change as a person, it just ( and only) means you wont have any hate or sadness towards anyone. society will still develop and better themselves, and we will still have fun.

the problem with the assassin's view is that in relies too much on human nature to make the right choice and not abuse freedom forthemselves, however we all know that we are programed to do such. And thus even though they kill and stop as many bad guys they have still done that bad thing..

blazefp
07-30-2011, 04:56 PM
Yeah 4 more targets for me.

I'm an assassin, all templars must DIE

xD

xCr0wnedNorris
07-30-2011, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by Turkiye96:
Personally, while current society does look down upon in im all for taking the rights and ''freedom'' of people. almost all goverments do this anyway... and the best 1 at it is America! they all say people are given rights and have the freedom to do whatever they want, but you dont! you have to pay taxes, you have to obey the law, being bad is frowned upon and violence is seen as barbaric and then people are against you. the only place you can truely be free is if you are isolated completely.

That's a common misconception. The United States has never been about giving people the freedom to do absolutely everything they want, it was about giving people the rights that they deserve (i.e. freedom of speech, religion, press, the right to bear arms and form assemblies, etc). I say was because right now the government is really trying to take away a lot of those freedoms.

LightRey
07-30-2011, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by xCr0wnedNorris:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Turkiye96:
Personally, while current society does look down upon in im all for taking the rights and ''freedom'' of people. almost all goverments do this anyway... and the best 1 at it is America! they all say people are given rights and have the freedom to do whatever they want, but you dont! you have to pay taxes, you have to obey the law, being bad is frowned upon and violence is seen as barbaric and then people are against you. the only place you can truely be free is if you are isolated completely.

That's a common misconception. The United States has never been about giving people the freedom to do absolutely everything they want, it was about giving people the rights that they deserve (i.e. freedom of speech, religion, press, the right to bear arms and form assemblies, etc). I say was because right now the government is really trying to take away a lot of those freedoms. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes. It's more that the government (like most governments) abuses the laws and twists the meanings of those words. The government only advocates things like freedom when it suits their needs. Actually very Templar-like.

Animuses
07-30-2011, 07:42 PM
Which is why the whole American government is under Templar control in the AC series.

LightRey
07-30-2011, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Animuses:
Which is why the whole American government is under Templar control in the AC series.
Yep. The same probably goes for most governments. Especially since many governments are under the control of the US government.

BK-110
07-30-2011, 07:51 PM
I'm on the Assassins' side, seeing as I feel that a world without change and distinction is meaningless. Also, in a world without sadness and pain, true happiness would not exist. Everyone should receive eduction equally to create a society based on reason. Sadly, that is unlikely to ever happen.

By the way, are you implying that atheists lack moral standards? The old argument about atheists lacking moral values and throwing away their moral resposibility due to their non-belief and theists having a moral monopoly doesn't hold water you know. That argument has been debunked countless times.

Besides, many of the Assassins in Assassin's Creed are atheists. Alta´r is a good example, and Ezio very likely as well.

masterfenix2009
07-30-2011, 09:36 PM
While (morally) the Assassins side is better. The Templars idea would actually happen. And it would stop fighting, pain, and "evil". The Templar side is smarter. Ignorance is bliss. Humans wouldn't know. They would be happy. If this happened right now, I would join the Assassins because I am not ignorant. But if I was already in Templar control, I wouldn't want to leave it. I wouldn't feel anything bad. Why would I want to?

LightRey
07-30-2011, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by BK-110:
I'm on the Assassins' side, seeing as I feel that a world without change and distinction is meaningless. Also, in a world without sadness and pain, true happiness would not exist. Everyone should receive eduction equally to create a society based on reason. Sadly, that is unlikely to ever happen.

By the way, are you implying that atheists lack moral standards? The old argument about atheists lacking moral values and throwing away their moral resposibility due to their non-belief and theists having a moral monopoly doesn't hold water you know. That argument has been debunked countless times.

Besides, many of the Assassins in Assassin's Creed are atheists. Alta´r is a good example, and Ezio very likely as well.
I don't really think you can call Assassins and Templars, who, like Alta´r, have seen and used the apple, atheist. I'm not saying they're religious or even agnostic, but I think they've sort of "transcended" such such views of the world in a way. It's not so much anymore about what they believe, but how they believe it. I know I'm being a little vague, but I can't really explain it any better than that.

Turkiye96
07-31-2011, 05:02 AM
good counter BK-110, while i also DONT agree athiests have no morals because they are athiest my initial post about that was referenceing What i read off the assassin wikia. if anyone is still not satisfied, also take into the account that the assassin's would do anything to protect their ideology ( kill people) and so would the templars.

also i would like to ask you how you understand ''change and distinction'' as we have not changed a lot human nature wise since we came to be. I mean we still have rivalries and fights and wars...
we are always the same and if you mean technologically, just coz the scientists are happy doesn't mean they will instantly stop working... no life will go on people will do what they want when it comes to casual non offensive stuff, e.g, you might come to work in a new cool tie but this time everyone will really like the tie
people will have the ''freedom'' to go about their casual days, but they will be programmed such that they do not have the ''freedom'' to abuse others.

roostersrule2
07-31-2011, 05:17 AM
I agree with what Lucy said in ac1 about the Templars "there goal is good but how there going about it isn't", she probably says it differently but that's what she means

Turkiye96
07-31-2011, 10:50 AM
as i said we aren't debating who's morals are better or who is nicer, its who's ideology is batter at running society

LightRey
07-31-2011, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Turkiye96:
as i said we aren't debating who's morals are better or who is nicer, its who's ideology is batter at running society
I think their morals are a large part of their ideologies.

Turkiye96
08-01-2011, 05:23 AM
how so? i agree that the morals of their ideology are important however i dont agree that their morals in achieving their goal is important for this poll.

LightRey
08-01-2011, 05:49 AM
Originally posted by Turkiye96:
how so? i agree that the morals of their ideology are important however i dont agree that their morals in achieving their goal is important for this poll.
Because the Templars and the Assassins both want the same thing: peace. The Assassins, as opposed to the Templars, however, desire peace in all things. This means that the Assassins desire peace in the way to achieve peace as well and that is where the Templars disagree. The Templars have a "the ends justify the means" mentality.

Turkiye96
08-01-2011, 08:29 AM
yea but in that aspect, the assassin's could be seen as hypocritical, i dont think that that quote was intended on being refered to as such that they should achieve peace in a peacefull way as killing those that are against your method isn't very peacful.

the assasin's used oppression to stop people from abusing freedom (something that could be seen as morally incorrect). While the templars are also trying to achieve peace on a global scale, and they are also doing this by the POE which doesn't make they people scared to abuse freedom, it makes them not want to abuse it... ( ultimatly less violent than the Assassin's)
so in terms of their morals of their ideology to lead society they could be seen as better than the assassin's however most templars are cruel too but that part doesn't relate to which ideology is better but rather relating to which creed is better...

LightRey
08-01-2011, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Turkiye96:
yea but in that aspect, the assassin's could be seen as hypocritical, i dont think that that quote was intended on being refered to as such that they should achieve peace in a peacefull way as killing those that are against your method isn't very peacful.

the assasin's used oppression to stop people from abusing freedom (something that could be seen as morally incorrect). While the templars are also trying to achieve peace on a global scale, and they are also doing this by the POE which doesn't make they people scared to abuse freedom, it makes them not want to abuse it... ( ultimatly less violent than the Assassin's)
so in terms of their morals of their ideology to lead society they could be seen as better than the assassin's however most templars are cruel too but that part doesn't relate to which ideology is better but rather relating to which creed is better...
could you give an example where the assassins used oppression?
The Assassins have an ideology that requires them to allow the people themselves to choose peace, while the Templars would force it. The only things the Assissins do to help the world in their eyes is to stop the Templars from forcing peace on the people and to promote free will.
They "work in the dark to serve the light" as they say. They commit evil deeds so that the people may be free. They basically sacrifice their own freedom so that they don't have to.

Turkiye96
08-01-2011, 11:59 AM
interesting point of view! :P
well as said they would use public assassinations to make themselves known. they would try to show the public that these bad deeds will get them killed, and thats where the oppression kicks in, as you wouldn't wana be bad and abuse freedom for fear of getting killed. while it does still grant the people the freedom to do what they want, if they do some of them, they will die. its not exactly letting them decide what to do when you say that if they do the wrong then then you will kill them, also as i said this plan is flawed as if they have already dont the bad thing ( eg kill a bunch of people to get rich) you cant get those lives back while when our human nature is changed we wouldn't do the bad things from the start. also another reason for why this wont work is that even if people are threatened by death they will still stand up against the assassins just like we have seen in every game so far.

giving everyone the freedom to chose not to be bad is wrong because many people will choose to be bad.

the templars spend ( or sacrifice)their lives for peace too just like the assassins

im not saying the morals of the Templar ideology are good but rather the assassin's morals aren't any better. and so with a failing ideology and a bad moral to it vs a Ideology that will bring peace even though its not moral
iv gota say, templars have a less flawed ideology

its not all black and white :P

LightRey
08-01-2011, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Turkiye96:
interesting point of view! :P
well as said they would use public assassinations to make themselves known. they would try to show the public that these bad deeds will get them killed, and thats where the oppression kicks in, as you wouldn't wana be bad and abuse freedom for fear of getting killed. while it does still grant the people the freedom to do what they want, if they do some of them, they will die. its not exactly letting them decide what to do when you say that if they do the wrong then then you will kill them, also as i said this plan is flawed as if they have already dont the bad thing ( eg kill a bunch of people to get rich) you cant get those lives back while when our human nature is changed we wouldn't do the bad things from the start. also another reason for why this wont work is that even if people are threatened by death they will still stand up against the assassins just like we have seen in every game so far.

giving everyone the freedom to chose not to be bad is wrong because many people will choose to be bad.

the templars spend ( or sacrifice)their lives for peace too just like the assassins

im not saying the morals of the Templar ideology are good but rather the assassin's morals aren't any better. and so with a failing ideology and a bad moral to it vs a Ideology that will bring peace even though its not moral
iv gota say, templars have a less flawed ideology

its not all black and white :P
Well I guess that's where you and I disagree, just like the Assassins and the Templars do.