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View Full Version : Should we really have tracers at all?



The-Pizza-Man
01-31-2006, 05:57 AM
I've noticed a lot in my reading that toward the end of the war tracers didn't seem to be in fighter ammunition belts, allied ones at least. Mostly it seems that they were only put in at the end the ammo belt to warn the pilot that he was almost out. Perhaps there should be an option to not to load tracers?

Choctaw111
01-31-2006, 06:39 AM
This has come up many times in these forums. This will be addressed in BoB but do not expect to see anything being done about this in Il2, unless Oleg really wants to surprise us anyway.

GH_Klingstroem
01-31-2006, 07:48 AM
another thing about tracers on the 0.50 cal... When you watch gun cam clips, every bullet that hits its target (or almost every bullet) will create a flash or spark whatever you want to call it. As it is in the game now, only a tracer bullet will create this flash on the target. I watched a gun camera clip yesterday of a me109 being struck by 0.50s and even though only few rounds seem to be tracers, the 109 is full of these small bright flashes as it is hit by the 0.50s.. And also we are missing the smoke effect on the 0.50s....

cheers

jds1978
01-31-2006, 07:54 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

AFJ_Locust
01-31-2006, 08:39 AM
Agreed

Wingstrut_1
01-31-2006, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by The-Pizza-Man:
I've noticed a lot in my reading that toward the end of the war tracers didn't seem to be in fighter ammunition belts, allied ones at least. Mostly it seems that they were only put in at the end the ammo belt to warn the pilot that he was almost out. Perhaps there should be an option to not to load tracers?

I don't know about that. You can find plenty of gun camera film late war in the Pacific with a lot of red tracer fire arching towards a variety of Japanese aircraft over Japan itself. Some are Navy gun camera film. Some are air force. Indeed, there is some really good footage of P51's hitting a variety of target on ground and in air over Japan.

Part of the fact you may see a bit more is the quality of film. Also consider film with a dark background of the sea you can see the tracers much more clear than in the skies/ground of Europe.

Choctaw111
01-31-2006, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
another thing about tracers on the 0.50 cal... When you watch gun cam clips, every bullet that hits its target (or almost every bullet) will create a flash or spark whatever you want to call it. As it is in the game now, only a tracer bullet will create this flash on the target. I watched a gun camera clip yesterday of a me109 being struck by 0.50s and even though only few rounds seem to be tracers, the 109 is full of these small bright flashes as it is hit by the 0.50s.. And also we are missing the smoke effect on the 0.50s....

cheers

The flashes are caused by incendiary rounds that explode with a flash when they hit something. Incediary rounds for a 50 cal are marked with a silver tip on the bullet. When you see a flash from a 50 cal it is this type of bullet. I do not think that incendiaries are even modeled in Il2 (which makes the 50's considerably less effective). It is possible for tracers to flash when they hit something as the bullet is deformed and the tracer element is exposed causing a bright flash as it quickly burns out. But this does not happen every time like we have in game. Also tracers do not produce a different color dust when they impact the ground. This is not realistic at all.

The-Pizza-Man
01-31-2006, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Wingstrut_1:
I don't know about that. You can find plenty of gun camera film late war in the Pacific with a lot of red tracer fire arching towards a variety of Japanese aircraft over Japan itself. Some are Navy gun camera film. Some are air force. Indeed, there is some really good footage of P51's hitting a variety of target on ground and in air over Japan.

Part of the fact you may see a bit more is the quality of film. Also consider film with a dark background of the sea you can see the tracers much more clear than in the skies/ground of Europe.

I'm not saying that they weren't used at all. I'm saying that it seems common place that they weren't from the reading I have done.

RE: API If incendiary rounds aren't modeled at all it must have an even bigger impact on Hispanos. Those belts were SAPI-HE IIRC. The SAPI rounds had 10 grams of incendiary compared to the 1 gram in a .50 API.

GH_Klingstroem
02-01-2006, 04:26 AM
ok thx for info choctaw111!

BadA1m
02-01-2006, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Choctaw111:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
another thing about tracers on the 0.50 cal... When you watch gun cam clips, every bullet that hits its target (or almost every bullet) will create a flash or spark whatever you want to call it. As it is in the game now, only a tracer bullet will create this flash on the target. I watched a gun camera clip yesterday of a me109 being struck by 0.50s and even though only few rounds seem to be tracers, the 109 is full of these small bright flashes as it is hit by the 0.50s.. And also we are missing the smoke effect on the 0.50s....

cheers

The flashes are caused by incendiary rounds that explode with a flash when they hit something. Incediary rounds for a 50 cal are marked with a silver tip on the bullet. When you see a flash from a 50 cal it is this type of bullet. I do not think that incendiaries are even modeled in Il2 (which makes the 50's considerably less effective). It is possible for tracers to flash when they hit something as the bullet is deformed and the tracer element is exposed causing a bright flash as it quickly burns out. But this does not happen every time like we have in game. Also tracers do not produce a different color dust when they impact the ground. This is not realistic at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have often wondered about the incindiary rounds in this game. I've read of pilots firing bursts into the vapor trail caused by leaking fuel and setting them on fire, but every time I try it- nothing, and BTW anyone else notice that the Japanese planes arent any easier to set on fire that any other plane (which from all reports I've read at least the early war ones should be)? Very interesting.

HotelBushranger
02-03-2006, 01:35 AM
What planes do you use against them? They light up pretty easy for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

NonWonderDog
02-03-2006, 04:53 AM
As far as I know, incendiary rounds are simulated with a small HE rating. Supposedly not quite big enough to blow stuff up, but big enough to start fires.

Oleg posted ammo tables a *LONG* time ago. I think they're still floating around, but they're way out of date.

Philipscdrw
02-03-2006, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by BadA1m:
I've read of pilots firing bursts into the vapor trail caused by leaking fuel and setting them on fire, but every time I try it- nothing, and BTW anyone else notice that the Japanese planes arent any easier to set on fire that any other plane (which from all reports I've read at least the early war ones should be)? Very interesting.

I read about the 'ignite vapor trail with tracers' in the CFS2 manual, I think. Gah - that brings back memories of the CFS2 damage model...

Edity edit: I like tracers, because 9/10 times when I attack bombers, they eliminate my gunsight (how often did that happen in real life?) and I have to aim with the tracers. Until I learn how to attack slow, unmanoeuverable targets better.

guderian_ente
02-03-2006, 07:53 AM
I've noticed a lot in my reading that toward the end of the war tracers didn't seem to be in fighter ammunition belts, allied ones at least.

I think they dropped the tracers because they had different ballistics compared to the normal rounds, which means they could cause the pilot to miss if he aimed using the tracers! No idea if the differing ballistics are modelled in Il2 though.



I've read of pilots firing bursts into the vapor trail caused by leaking fuel and setting them on fire, but every time I try it- nothing...


I've read that too, but I don't know how common it actually was.

I get the feeling that some of this stuff is fighter pilot bar stories that have filtered into the history books. Another suspect one is the tip about shooting the oil cooler underneath the nose of the Il-2. Obviously that's a very small target. I'm not saying it never happened, but I doubt it was common.

guderian_ente
02-03-2006, 12:03 PM
Gah - that brings back memories of the CFS2 damage model...

It sure does.

Hit bubble, bullets that didn't lose energy over distance...shooting was never so easy.

Of course it was a b**** having to relearn everything in Il2. :)

MAILMAN------
02-03-2006, 08:29 PM
What actually happened was that the tracers were belted every fifth round. Initially in the PTO they had Ball, Incendiary, Armour Piercing HE and Tracer rounds (not necessarily in this order.) It was soon realized the armour piercing rounds were not needed against the japanese aircraft. Units dropped the armour piercing rounds and substituted Incendiary causing a shortage at one point. Now being ingenious someone had made the original decision to group some tracers together at the end of the belts to warn the pilot that he was near the end of his ammo load. But knowing Murphy's law that if you have a visual indicator that your ammo is about to run out, eventually your enemy will figure this out and pass it on to his buddies if he survives. Imagine the joy your enemy would have when you just told him he doesn't have to worry about you shooting at him anymore. Due to this the tracers grouping at the end of the belt was dropped.

MAILMAN------
02-03-2006, 08:37 PM
One side note is that when I have had the opportuninty to watch another aircraft fire at another with no deflection at long range I see no curving arc with cannon rounds. The fly as flat as .50 cal rounds. This has been a problem in almost every flight sim that I have played dating back to the mid '90's and is no different in this sim.

VW-IceFire
02-03-2006, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by MAILMAN------:
One side note is that when I have had the opportuninty to watch another aircraft fire at another with no deflection at long range I see no curving arc with cannon rounds. The fly as flat as .50 cal rounds. This has been a problem in almost every flight sim that I have played dating back to the mid '90's and is no different in this sim.
MMmm the cannon rounds in this game curve and arc fairly well actually. Some of them not so much and the Hispano round has a very flat trajectory (historically) and in the game the bullet "ends" at about 800m so you never see it fall.

The-Pizza-Man
02-04-2006, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by MAILMAN------:
What actually happened was that the tracers were belted every fifth round. Initially in the PTO they had Ball, Incendiary, Armour Piercing HE and Tracer rounds (not necessarily in this order.) It was soon realized the armour piercing rounds were not needed against the japanese aircraft. Units dropped the armour piercing rounds and substituted Incendiary causing a shortage at one point. Now being ingenious someone had made the original decision to group some tracers together at the end of the belts to warn the pilot that he was near the end of his ammo load. But knowing Murphy's law that if you have a visual indicator that your ammo is about to run out, eventually your enemy will figure this out and pass it on to his buddies if he survives. Imagine the joy your enemy would have when you just told him he doesn't have to worry about you shooting at him anymore. Due to this the tracers grouping at the end of the belt was dropped.

The RAF in Burma also did that, the enemy also figured it out. They would jump on the plane that first started firing tracers. So they started putting a section of tracers at the start of the belt. The japs thinking he was out of ammo would get a nasty suprise.

MAILMAN------
02-05-2006, 02:04 PM
I can only speak on what I have visually observed. When I have seen a cannon only armed aircraft firing at another level with the ground/water the tracers never seem to arc with gravity. I have seen the arcing when the aircraft is maneuvering, but never when wings straight and level. Cannon rounds were larger and heavier and should not have as flat a trajectory as .50 or .303 and metric eqivalents as a general rule. Just my observations.

SnapdLikeAMutha
02-05-2006, 02:54 PM
Conversely on many Bomber Command missions I believe the guns were loaded with ONLY tracer - imagine what that must have looked like in pitch darkness http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif