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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 09:17 AM
my blond knight of germany book is out of town for a month or so ........and im arguing with someone on another board..thanks ...if nothing else how bout 1943 at least

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U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

Message Edited on 11/09/0312:18AM by tenmmike

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 09:17 AM
my blond knight of germany book is out of town for a month or so ........and im arguing with someone on another board..thanks ...if nothing else how bout 1943 at least

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U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

Message Edited on 11/09/0312:18AM by tenmmike

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 09:49 AM
If no one else can help, I'll try to type it up for you a bit later if I have enough time.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 09:56 AM
well that would be nice but i certainly dont want to be intrusive.. how bout this give 1943 listings of types shot down and when.... for the folowing years just a toatl of each type ..if you do this i thank you very much.........mike

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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 10:07 AM
In the first half of 1943 he had 17 more victories.
In July 1943 he had 23 victories, including 7 victories in July 7th.
In August 1943 he had 48 victories, including, again, 7 victories in the 7th.
In September 1943 he had 25 victories, reaching over 100 total.
In October 1943 he had 32 victories.


352 in all

sorry all the info i could find

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 10:14 AM
Diab182 thanks but i can get those numbers.. i need aircraft model especialy 1943 as the argument is basicly over the number of i-16 shot down and other "inferior" aircraft like il-2 ....iv got him down to il-2 being ok now but need numbers of i-16 and the such

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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 10:44 AM
I swear i saw a breakdown list for all the aces like your looking for a while back typing in luftwaffe (spelling)
as i heard it the big argument is ya he shot down alot of inferior aircraft over the eastern front. but a kills a kill I say.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 11:54 AM
Hartmann didn't start fighting on the eastern front until most of the I16's were already destroyed. I'll look for his actual kill chart later today, but very few were the really early war types

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 01:02 PM
If you don't mind reading it in German, you will the requested information in the following document:

http://home.tiscali.nl/adsl446606/Harmann's%20victories.pdf


Regards,

Scorpius

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 01:05 PM
This time with the correct link:

http://home.tiscali.nl/adsl446606/Hartmann's%20victories.pdf


Regards,

Scorpius

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 01:06 PM
Hi

tenmmike wrote:
- my blond knight of germany book is out of town for a
- month or so ........and im arguing with someone on
- another board..thanks ...if nothing else how bout
- 1943 at least
-
- <img
- src="http://images.ar15.com/forums/smiles/anim_sni
- per2.gif">
- U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991
-
-
- Message Edited on 11/09/03 12:18AM by tenmmike



from Blond knight of germany, log for 1943, pages 290-293. No entreys for I-16. So thats 0 then.

MB

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 01:32 PM
You missed one. On 27 March 1943 he downed an I-16 Rata.

You say he's accepted IL-2s now? So I'd think a Pe-2 is also fine. Other "inferiors" are:

24 March 1943 U-2
26 April 1943 R-5
15 May 1943 U-2


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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 01:54 PM
JG5_Scorpius .the links arent working but i thank you any way

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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 02:08 PM
Just go here:

http://tonywood.cjb.net/

...and you'll find much more than you need.

All best,

Christer Bergstr¶m

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 02:12 PM
thanks ChBergstrom and for all your wonderfull books S!

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U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 02:15 PM
5 Nov. 1942 IL-2
27 Jan. 1943 MIG-1
9 Feb. 1943 Lagg-3
10 Feb. 1943 Boston
24 Mar. 1943 U-2
27 Mar. 1943 I-16 Rata
15 Apr. 1943 Airacobra
26 Apr. 1943 R-5
28 Apr. 1943 Lagg-3
30 Apr. 1943 Lagg-3
30 Apr. 1943 Lagg-3
7 May 1943 La-5
11 May 1943 Lagg-3
15 May 1943 U-2
16 May 1943 La-5
18 May 1943 Lagg-3
5 July 1943 Airacobra
5 July 1943 Airacobra
5 July 1943 Airacobra
5 July 1943 La-5
7 July 1943 IL-2
7 July 1943 IL-2
7 July 1943 IL-2
7 July 1943 La-5
7 July 1943 La-5
7 July 1943 La-5
7 July 1943 La-5
8 July 1943 La-5
8 July 1943 La-5
8 July 1943 La-5
8 July 1943 La-5
10 July 1943 La-5
11 July 1943 La-5
15 July 1943 La-5
15 July 1943 La-5
16 July 1943 La-5
16 July 1943 La-5
17 July 1943 La-5
31 July 1943 La-5
1 Aug. 1943 La-5
1 Aug. 1943 La-5
1 Aug. 1943 YAK-7
1 Aug. 1943 YAK-7
1 Aug. 1943 YAK-7
3 Aug. 1943 La-5
3 Aug. 1943 YAK-7
3 Aug. 1943 YAK-7
3 Aug. 1943 La-5
4 Aug. 1943 La-5
4 Aug. 1943 La-5
4 Aug. 1943 La-5
4 Aug. 1943 YAK-7
4 Aug. 1943 La-5
5 Aug. 1943 La-5
6 Aug. 1943 YAK-1
7 Aug. 1943 YAK-1
7 Aug. 1943 YAK-1
7 Aug. 1943 Pe-2
7 Aug. 1943 Pe-2
7 Aug. 1943 YAK-1
7 Aug. 1943 La-5
7 Aug. 1943 La-5
8 Aug. 1943 YAK-1
8 Aug. 1943 La-5
9 Aug. 1943 La-5
9 Aug. 1943 YAK-1
9 Aug. 1943 YAK-1
9 Aug. 1943 YAK-1
12 Aug. 1943 La-5
15 Aug. 1943 Pe-2
15 Aug. 1943 La-5
15 Aug. 1943 La-5
17 Aug. 1943 La-5
17 Aug. 1943 Airacobra
17 Aug. 1943 Airacobra
17 Aug. 1943 Airacobra
18 Aug. 1943 La-5
18 Aug. 1943 La-5
18 Aug. 1943 La-5
19 Aug. 1943 La-5
19 Aug. 1943 La-5
19 Aug. 1943 Airacobra
20 Aug. 1943 IL-2
20 Aug. 1943 IL-2
15 Sep. 1943 La-5
18 Sep. 1943 La-5
18 Sep. 1943 La-5
18 Sep. 1943 La-5
18 Sep. 1943 La-5
19 Sep. 1943 La-5
20 Sep. 1943 La-5
20 Sep. 1943 La-5
20 Sep. 1943 Airacobra
20 Sep. 1943 La-5
25 Sep. 1943 La-5
25 Sep. 1943 La-5
25 Sep. 1943 La-5
26 Sep. 1943 La-5
26 Sep. 1943 Airacobra
26 Sep. 1943 Airacobra
27 Sep. 1943 La-5
27 Sep. 1943 La-5
28 Sep. 1943 La-5
29 Sep. 1943 La-5
29 Sep. 1943 Airacobra
30 Sep. 1943 La-5
30 Sep. 1943 Airacobra
30 Sep. 1943 Airacobra
1 Oct. 1943 La-5
1 Oct. 1943 La-5
2 Oct. 1943 La-5
2 Oct. 1943 Pe-2
2 Oct. 1943 Airacobra
2 Oct. 1943 La-5
3 Oct. 1943 La-5
3 Oct. 1943 La-5
4 Oct. 1943 Airacobra
11 Oct. 1943 La-5
12 Oct. 1943 La-5
12 Oct. 1943 La-5
12 Oct. 1943 La-5
12 Oct. 1943 La-5
13 Oct. 1943 La-5
14 Oct. 1943 La-5
14 Oct. 1943 La-5
14 Oct. 1943 La-5
15 Oct. 1943 La-5
15 Oct. 1943 La-5
15 Oct. 1943 La-5
20 Oct. 1943 Airacobra
20 Oct. 1943 Airacobra
20 Oct. 1943 Airacobra
21 Oct. 1943 La-5
24 Oct. 1943 La-5
24 Oct. 1943 La-5
25 Oct. 1943 Pe-2
25 Oct. 1943 La-5
26 Oct. 1943 Airacobra
26 Oct. 1943 Airacobra
29 Oct. 1943 La-5
29 Oct. 1943 Airacobra
7 Dec. 1943 La-7
13 Dec. 1943 La-7

Here ends Erich Hartmann's first combat logbook, which is kept safely in Germany.
His second logbook, containing information on the rest of his wartime career, was
taken from him the last day of the war by an American or a Czechoslovakian captor,
and is the subject of an urgent search by the authors.

---------------

Here you go. Hope that helped.
What a great time my scanner found to crap out on me eh? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 02:16 PM
Here's the breakdown of log book #1 spanning 5 Nov. 1942 to 13 Dec. 1943

86 La-5
22 P-39
8 Yak-7
8 Yak-1
7 Lagg-3
6 IL-2
5 Pe-2
2 La-7
2 U-2
1 I-16
1 R-5
1 Mig-1
1 Boston

150 Total

All but his first kill (IL-2), took place within 1943.

Log book #2 was taken at the end of the war so details are very sparse.

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AirBot by 1 min /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Message Edited on 11/09/0305:20AM by Stecher_3.-JG51

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 02:19 PM
airbot and Stecher_3.-JG51..thank you very much..~S~

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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 05:32 PM
I remember posting on here one time that Hartmann shot down over 80 La-5s and some said it was nonesense/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

In 1943 alone:

86 La-5

22 P-39


That is incredible!


<center><img src= "http://perso.wanadoo.fr/christophe.arribat/stoffwjabo.jpg" height=205 width=385>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

British Air Marshall, Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

Buzz_25th
11-09-2003, 05:47 PM
Interesting that you guys are listing the La7 as a 43 plane. Especially since the La5FN is claimed to be a late 44 plane in IL2/FB.

Someone has the facts wrong here. If indeed Hartmann shot down La7's in 43. Then the La7 should be a 43 plane on servers and online wars.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:10 PM
FW190fan wrote:
- I remember posting on here one time that Hartmann
- shot down over 80 La-5s and some said it was
- nonesense/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif -
- In 1943 alone:
-
- 86 La-5
-
- 22 P-39
-
-
- That is incredible!
-
-
- <center><img src=
- "http://perso.wanadoo.fr/christophe.arribat/stoffw
- jabo.jpg" height=205 width=385> -
- <center>"We are now in a position of
- inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in
- the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is
- the best all-round fighter in the world today."
-
- British Air Marshall, Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942
-

It is considering La-5's and P-39's were flown by some of the VVS's best pilots. I wonder if this was the time period he was the wingman for Krupinski, a guy who felt obliged to attack everything regardless of being outnumbered. Kind of puts a dent in some historians theory that Hartmann was just shooting down crappy pilots in crappy aircraft.

I am still amazed at Hartmann's numbers, especially when one has to consider that he was a late comer to the war. Makes me wonder if he started at the beginning what his victory totals would have been.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:16 PM
Indeed, every place I could find seems to list the La-7 as a mid-1944 plane.
I don't know why these two kills in Dec. 1943 are listed as La-7s. Perhaps it's some kind of early prototype, a case of mistaken identity, or something else. I don't know - I just type it up, I don't write it. In the book however, these two kills are definetely listed as:

Victory #149, 387th sortie, Apostolovo area, 7th December 1943, time 1305-1405, La-7
Victory #150, 391st sortie, Apostolovo area, 13th December 1943, time 0923-1020, La-7

Many people around here know much more about WWII aircraft than me. Perhaps they can explain this.

Buzz_25th wrote:
- Interesting that you guys are listing the La7 as a
- 43 plane. Especially since the La5FN is claimed to
- be a late 44 plane in IL2/FB.
-
- Someone has the facts wrong here. If indeed
- Hartmann shot down La7's in 43. Then the La7 should
- be a 43 plane on servers and online wars.
-
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- 25th_Buzz
- <center>
<img
- src="http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3
- .jpg">
-



- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:16 PM
Hi

Yep missed the march i-16, Doh!

The La7 s are from December -43, From Hertmanns own Log. It could be that this is the German identification of a new type of La aircraft. The book, the Blond Knight of Germany, was writen from the early 60s on, so access to soviet data would have been very spares. thsi mat explain the difference in Hertmanns log & info we have now.

MB

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 07:14 PM
AirBot wrote:
- Indeed, every place I could find seems to list the
- La-7 as a mid-1944 plane.
- I don't know why these two kills in Dec. 1943 are
- listed as La-7s. Perhaps it's some kind of early
- prototype, a case of mistaken identity, or something
- else. I don't know - I just type it up, I don't
- write it. In the book however, these two kills are
- definetely listed as:
-
-

The La-7 did not begin to reach the VVS units until the late spring of '44.

Another mis-IDing case is Hartmann's #352, a Jak 11 over Brno in this listing http://home.tiscali.nl/adsl446606/Hartmann's%20victories.pdf. This is a training a/c that did not fly until late 1946.

Notice also the LaGG5s and LaGG7s listed. Another case of mis-identification which even Oleg does not recognize as being such.


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"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 10:11 PM
The German's refered to the La's as LaGGs.

Rall even does it now in his biography, "LaGG-7" is mentioned as out-running his G-6.


<center><img src= "http://perso.wanadoo.fr/christophe.arribat/stoffwjabo.jpg" height=205 width=385>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

British Air Marshall, Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 10:15 PM
here ya go m8, all you need and more:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/eastern.html

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg



http://www.dugg.ca/

Buzz_25th
11-09-2003, 10:24 PM
It doesn't matter if they call them Lagg7 of La7. It's an La7 as we know it.

I'd like to know how he claims La7 kills before it was in service. It makes me question the validity of the whole list.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 10:30 PM
here another list of German Aces: http://www.luftwaffe.cz/experten.html

you'll notice that alot of kills have question marks around them and according to Grislawski and Graf, some of the German pilots made up some kills so its not for sure if some of them are real or not. i guess they were in a race to see how many kills they could get between themselves.

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg



http://www.dugg.ca/

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 10:56 PM
JG5_Scorpius wrote:
- This time with the correct link:
-
http://home.tiscali.nl/adsl446606/Hartmann's%20victories.pdf

After I read that link, I noticed his last score "352 8. 5.1945 0830-0920 Jak-11 Bruenn"

I wonder maybe he mean Yak-3U. How can he knew it was Yak even Yak-11 (It have longer cockpit glass two seaters first fly in 1947) as it may be look so like La-7 even La-5FN. Maybe Russian tell press what they lost last one to Erich.

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 11:24 PM
Hi

Buzz_25th wrote:
- It doesn't matter if they call them Lagg7 of La7.
- It's an La7 as we know it.
-
- I'd like to know how he claims La7 kills before it
- was in service. It makes me question the validity
- of the whole list.
-

Like I said. the book was writen well before the fall of the soviet union, so its reasonable to asume the information we now have access to, was not avabliabel to the authors. The La7 may have been missidentified by Hartmann. It dosen't make the validity of the list doubtful, just the aircraft type that was claimed.


MB

Buzz_25th
11-09-2003, 11:31 PM
Why would Hartmann missidentify a plane he hasn't seen yet? Why wouldn't he think it was an La5?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 11:44 PM
Good grief.


<center><img src= "http://perso.wanadoo.fr/christophe.arribat/stoffwjabo.jpg" height=205 width=385>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

British Air Marshall, Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 11:50 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- Why would Hartmann missidentify a plane he hasn't
- seen yet?

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif How do you identify a plane that you have never seen? You guess.



Buzz_25th wrote:
- Why wouldn't he think it was an La5?
-

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Maybe because it didn't look like a La5?

---------------
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Kampagne für IL-2 1.2: I-16 - Kampf im Kaukasus (Deutsch) (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/kampagne.html)

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 11:53 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- Why would Hartmann missidentify a plane he hasn't
- seen yet? Why wouldn't he think it was an La5?
-

Possibly the same way that a few American pilots occasionally misidentified P-51's as Me-109's and P-47's as FW-190's. It happens. "The fog of war".

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 11:57 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- It doesn't matter if they call them Lagg7 of La7.
- It's an La7 as we know it.
-
- I'd like to know how he claims La7 kills before it
- was in service. It makes me question the validity
- of the whole list.
-

Misidentification happens all the time in kill reports. For instance Robert Johnson talks about shooting down a ME209 and fighting a FW-290. This is pretty unlikely and in reality was probably a 109K4 and 190D9. The pilot just sees something different for a split second and makes a judgement. Paint a LA-7, LA-5FN, and a LA-5 the same, show it to someone in combat conditions, they all look the same. There's no time to see the little differences. That doesn't mean they didn't get the kill.

DangerForward

Buzz_25th
11-09-2003, 11:57 PM
plumps,

I think you missed the point. Of course it looks like an La5, but why would he call it an La7 if he didn't even know one exsisted yet?

There's one explanation. His list was filled out later when he did know there was an La7 but didn't realize it wasn't in service until mid 44. How many more entries were "filled in".

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:00 AM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- plumps,
-
- I think you missed the point. Of course it looks
- like an La5, but why would he call it an La7 if he
- didn't even know one exsisted yet?
-
-
- There's one explanation. His list was filled out
- later when he did know there was an La7 but didn't
- realize it wasn't in service until mid 44. How many
- more entries were "filled in".
-
-
We can't know of course, ..but perhaps German intelligence told them that such a plane was on the way.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:01 AM
Shut up Buzz_25th, dont waste a good topic

____________________________________



<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/vipez/sig3.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:10 AM
DangerForward wrote:
-
- Buzz_25th wrote:
-- It doesn't matter if they call them Lagg7 of La7.
-- It's an La7 as we know it.
--
-- I'd like to know how he claims La7 kills before it
-- was in service. It makes me question the validity
-- of the whole list.
--
-
- Misidentification happens all the time in kill
- reports. For instance Robert Johnson talks about
- shooting down a ME209 and fighting a FW-290. This is
- pretty unlikely and in reality was probably a 109K4
- and 190D9. The pilot just sees something different
- for a split second and makes a judgement. Paint a
- LA-7, LA-5FN, and a LA-5 the same, show it to
- someone in combat conditions, they all look the
- same. There's no time to see the little differences.
- That doesn't mean they didn't get the kill.
-
- DangerForward

Same problem with many people think they shot Zero down but it can be Ki-43 or Ki-84 and more as many are almost look same in distance in blur unless they trained to study shape really close and good.


Regards
SnowLeopard

Buzz_25th
11-10-2003, 12:15 AM
Vipez-

The topic has been answered already. We're on to something else now. Try and keep up.

I'm guessing your a Hartmann fan.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:16 AM
Exactly Buzz, U R way out of your league trying to tell that Hartmann didn't ge these kills. Luftwaffe claims have been very well compared to the Allied losses after the war and at the Eastern front they are even less than total losses at VVS side. Pls. show evidence and don't speculate over a good topic.

Buzz_25th
11-10-2003, 12:19 AM
I didn't put the La7 on the list. I'm looking for an explanation. How am I ruining the topic? I thought the topic was what kind of planes did Hartmann shoot down?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:30 AM
It's a conspiracy.


<center><img src= "http://perso.wanadoo.fr/christophe.arribat/stoffwjabo.jpg" height=205 width=385>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

British Air Marshall, Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:37 AM
Well wrong claims might happen. Maybe he really added it later? after he was told there were La7s around? hte german system of getting an official confirmation for a kill took quite long. sometimes even half a year so maybe he shot a La5 and added it after he got the confirmation for shooting down an LA? btw overclaiming was quite common so ...? i think the world record for overclaiming kills is held by a bunch of US bombers of the 8th USAF when they attacked a target in france in 1942. as far as i remember the gunners of the B17s claimed 102(or so, would have to look it up but i'm too lazy) kills but according to german statistics only 2 planes were shot down that day!!!! so i'm pretty sure Hartmann got some kills he never really made himself but i think the german system for claiming kills was quite good from what i've read so far.

2 things we need in FB:
The 110 and the desert!!!
http://exn.ca/news/images/1999/04/23/19990423-Me110coloursideMAIN.jpg



Message Edited on 11/09/0311:38PM by Gershy

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:53 AM
im the s.o.b that started this thread and im curious as well about the la-7 thing..so get off buzz's a$$. its a ligitimate question......Gershy..im inclined to go with your line of thinking

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U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:55 AM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- It doesn't matter if they call them Lagg7 of La7.
- It's an La7 as we know it.
-
- I'd like to know how he claims La7 kills before it
- was in service. It makes me question the validity
- of the whole list.

If you like, do so./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Mis-ID-ing is common thing in stressy situations. Those La-7's in Hartmann's list are surely La-5, who cares Buzz? It's a fighter he shot down, who cares which type? It's a a/c that's missing to the other side. Did U ever served?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Then U should know how easy it is mixing up targets.

If anyone at my Funeral has a long face, I'll never speak to him again.
Stan Laurel



EJGr.Ost Kimura

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Message Edited on 11/10/0312:56AM by KIMURA

Buzz_25th
11-10-2003, 01:01 AM
I'm the curios type. I understand missidentifying planes, but usually it's planes you know about.

How was this done anyway. Didn't they fill out a report at the end of the day? Hartmann couldn't have said he shot down an La7 in 43. I would like to know how this mistake lasted all these years.

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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 01:09 AM
Buzz_25th wrote:
-
-
- How was this done anyway. Didn't they fill out a
- report at the end of the day? Hartmann couldn't have
- said he shot down an La7 in 43. I would like to know
- how this mistake lasted all these years.
-
-

Because Buzz that is what he put down in the claim report > whether it was a -5 or -7 does not matter. He claimed a La-7 not a La-5. You will also notice that the Lagg5 and Lagg7 identities were not corrected either.

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"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

Buzz_25th
11-10-2003, 01:13 AM
Yes, but when were these reports made? The day he shot them down, or 6 months later? He didn't know to call it an La7 in 43.

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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 01:19 AM
Very shortly after, most likely that night.

If the a/c was different that what he knew as a La(GG)-5 but simular then the next number would be a La(GG)-7.



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"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 01:26 AM
I'm not sure the front unit pilots didn't exactly knew the type the enemies flew. Do you they a difference either between a P-39N or P-39Q or a P-40M and P-40K? I don't think so. Let's take 2 examples. American AVG pilots claimed Zeros shot down were no Zero ever entered that area by several 100 miles. All AVG kills were exclusively Ki-43 or other a/c but no Zeros. The other thing German kill reports in the Baltic of GB-delivered H.P. Hampdens. That a/c appears in the kill claims lists, twice or 3-times the numbers which were delivered in reality. I'm sure there was a kill of an VVS a/c done by LW pilots, but not a Hampden./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

It has also to do with prefereneces of the pilot or circumstances that kill was done, the light of enviroment angle of attack. US-pilots preferred to claim 190s instead of real 109, German claimed a Spit instead of a Hurri and so on.

If anyone at my Funeral has a long face, I'll never speak to him again.
Stan Laurel



EJGr.Ost Kimura

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Buzz_25th
11-10-2003, 01:30 AM
Why would it have looked different to him? If he shot it down in 43, Then it was an La5. Why would he call it something else.

This is very simple, and i don't see why some of you don't see my point. It's also not very important, but it is something that needs an answer, because having an La7 on his list for 43 makes no sense.

I'm also not claiming Hartmann doesn't deserve all his kills. I've said in the past that I admire him as a pilot and a man. Even if he was the enemy for my country. He was only doing his job for his country. Now with that out of the way.

Nobody has given a good answer for how an La7 got on that list. Doesn't anybody else wonder about this?

I believe this fact to be a fact. Hartmann didn't know an La7 excisted in Dec 43. None were in service until mid 44. This can be proven. Then how can he mistaken a La5 for a La7 which he knew nothing about?

Simple question that might have a simple answer, but I can't think of what it is. Can you?

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25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 01:34 AM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- Yes, but when were these reports made? The day he
- shot them down, or 6 months later? He didn't know to
- call it an La7 in 43.
-

I dunno why he wrote La7 there, but if this list posted before is from his personal record I'd say he wrote them in there much later. As i said the procedure for getting a kill in germany at that time took a quite long time after the camapaign in the east started. 1st the pilot had to make the kill. then he had to write a aper about that with all the data in there, someone who witnessed it had to do the same thing. if possible groundtroups had to check out if there is a wreck somewhere. THEN the paper was sent to germany. there it was investigated by a special office who even made checks on that in Russia from time to time. so imagine you shoot down a plane there in late 1943 (an La5 or maybe Lagg3 as the germans often didn't make a difference in that) then you have to fill out the papers, if you're unlucky they'll even investigate at the front alreay, then send it to berlin which takes a long time in 1943 (especially in the army you know /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) then the office in Berlin is working on the official confirmation for thouands of pilots and then send it back. you'll get an official confirmation for a LA shot down in late 1943 in mid till late mid 1944 maybe. then you write it down in your diary aaaaaaaaaaaam which plane was it again.......La they said.......ahhhhm last one i got was La7 right?...a lets write La7....december 1943 La7...maybe that's how you get a kill for an La7? Hartmann or not but i don't think you have to wait for half a year to add an La7 to your 1943 war diary. he could have added an La5 as well at that time. would have been more reasonable and more likely thatn to overclaim kills for planes which simply were not there at that time and he surely knew that it would have beens tupid. If you would have been a.....lets say...british, russian or Us pilot........its 1944 and you think "hmmm i have 200 kills (just an example) I want to add one or 2 more"(what for if i may ask? the difference between 198 and 200 is not thaaat big) so you decide to add those 2 extra kills in your PRIVATE war diary: what would you write down? surely not a Me262, would you? that's what i mean. he surely overclaimed a bit but this La7 thing is maybe a mistake, an accident he simply can't be that stupid.

2 things we need in FB:
The 110 and the desert!!!
http://exn.ca/news/images/1999/04/23/19990423-Me110coloursideMAIN.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 01:36 AM
Also same with Spitfire, how will emeny know which variant in so exact one they shot Spitfire in down! If course, some way can tell different between 3 to 5 variants space.

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 01:36 AM
Perhaps German intelligence reported a new type La fighter believed to be called an La-7. Maybe he shoots an La-5N instead of an La-5 and it looks different to him.

Maybe I'm wrong.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 01:36 AM
When did the La(GG)-5FN fly Buzz? This a/c was such an improvement over previous marks it might be thought of as a new model.

It also had the long intake ducting on the nose.



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"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

Message Edited on 11/09/0307:38PM by MiloMorai

Buzz_25th
11-10-2003, 01:44 AM
Just drumming up some conversation while I watch a race on TV. At least I got some of you thinking.

I'm done now.

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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 01:45 AM
Fan? no,, but yes, I have deep respect for the guy for archieving what he did.. you post just made me think about you considering him as a cheater.. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

____________________________________



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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 01:46 AM
~S~ guys!
First, can somebody tell me all of the aircraft Harmann flew in WWII? I know only of his 109G-6 but think he might have flown preveous or later models as well.

Second, about the LA-7 kill thing how's this sound as an explanation?
Hartmann may have been told about the upcomeing model, or filled those in later, but maybe those LA-7 kills were merely LA-5FN's flown by very experianced pilots. When Hartmann wrote them in he may have thought it was a better aircraft.

Buzz_25th
11-10-2003, 01:48 AM
Vipez-

You might of thought of that before throwing out an insult at me. I didn't insult anybody in this thread, but was only was asking questions.

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25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 02:02 AM
VOL_Jon wrote:
- Second, about the LA-7 kill thing how's this sound
- as an explanation?
- Hartmann may have been told about the upcomeing
- model, or filled those in later, but maybe those
- LA-7 kills were merely LA-5FN's flown by very
- experianced pilots. When Hartmann wrote them in he
- may have thought it was a better aircraft.

???...LOL...How will he know it was very experianced pilots? He always aviod dogfight, he simple sneak up to them point blank and shot them down. Are they very experianced?

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 02:28 AM
Gunther Rall and Barkhorn were both shot down from behind by being careless. Not exactly two pilots who I would call rookies!

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 02:29 AM
VOL_Jon wrote:
- ~S~ guys!
- First, can somebody tell me all of the aircraft
- Harmann flew in WWII? I know only of his 109G-6 but
- think he might have flown preveous or later models
- as well.
-

In Chris Bergstrom's Luftwaffe Profile books they show G4, G6early, G6late, G-14/AM, and K4 models.

DangerForward

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 02:32 AM
WereSnowleopard wrote:
-
-
- ???...LOL...How will he know it was very
- experianced pilots? He always aviod dogfight, he
- simple sneak up to them point blank and shot them
- down. Are they very experianced?
-
-

So all of Hartmann's 352 'kills' were made by sneaky attacks from the 6./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



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"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 02:49 AM
WereSnowleopard wrote:
- ???...LOL...How will he know it was very
- experianced pilots? He always aviod dogfight, he
- simple sneak up to them point blank and shot them
- down. Are they very experianced?
-
-
- Regards
- SnowLeopard
-

Good point, Harmann was smart enough to avoid a dogfight.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 02:50 AM
Thanks for the data Danger!

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:35 AM
MiloMorai wrote:

- So all of Hartmann's 352 'kills' were made by sneaky
- attacks from the 6

(This post is not direct at you Milo, but the comment itself generated enough interest for me to reply. No offense meant here just so you know)


Hartman can and did dogfight as required. Read his accounts in the Blond Knight of Germany. As I recall he mentions a dogfight over Ploesti against 8 P51's where he fought them for a considerable length of time and eventually had to bail out because there were too many to escape from. According to his story several of the mustangs fired their entire ammo load without destroying his plane and I recall that he bailed out due to fuel contraints rather than battle damage.

There are other accounts where he did dogfight with his enemy...he simply prefered not to as opposed not knowing how.

When your life is on the line, heroism tends to go out the window, you don't know when the war will be over so you have to play the odds and take the least number of risks possible. Sneaky in a dishonorable context has nothing to do with reality...there is little if any honor in warfare. You have a job to do and one life to do it with, so sneaky is the order of the day.

Also on a realistic level, it takes considerable skill to use surprise to your advantage, especially in the air where it is very difficult to hide.

As a former tank commander in the US Army I would choose the advantage of surprise over any kind of honor, regardless of my personal feelings about what is right and wrong. The object of your mission is to destroy your opponent, to win period, not give him a chance to show his stuff and prove his skill. The point in fact is to deny him the chance to ever even use his skill.


On that note, I agree most with the quote from the movie 'Clear and Present Danger':

(US Army instructor addressing Sgt Chavez on the sniper course)

"How did heck did you get so close to us?"

"Sir! The sniper approached the instructor by being a sneaking bastard, Sir!"




TX-Zen
Black 6
TX Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM only)


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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:37 AM
Zyzbot wrote:
-
- Buzz_25th wrote:
-- plumps,
--
-- I think you missed the point. Of course it looks
-- like an La5, but why would he call it an La7 if he
-- didn't even know one exsisted yet?
--
--
-- There's one explanation. His list was filled out
-- later when he did know there was an La7 but didn't
-- realize it wasn't in service until mid 44. How many
-- more entries were "filled in".
--
--
- We can't know of course, ..but perhaps German
- intelligence told them that such a plane was on the
- way.
-
-

Dude!!!
You have made a great point.It looks like somebody in 60's
needed some boost for our propaganda.So there you go.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:37 AM
Side note, forgot to mention that its refreshing to see a discussion not turn into a flame war. Kudos to all involved for having the maturity to stay focused and not get stupid.

Salute

TX-Zen
Black 6
TX Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM only)


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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:49 AM
And NASA never landed on the moon all a hoax....a movie set in Elko, Nevada.

Hartmann actually only shot down 35 planes and a UFO. I have his log book...brought out of mother russia ... taken from a lady that took it from the soldier that took it from Hartmann.

Happy hunting and check six!

Tony Ascaso, RN

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:53 AM
I think we all know by now the LA7 is in fact a UFO.

Thank explains a lot to me about his log book, I was wondering like Buzz how he shot down LA7's in 43 when they didn't exist. Now after Tascaso's startling revelation, it all makes sense.

TX-Zen
Black 6
TX Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM only)


http://www.txsquadron.com/uploaded/tx-zen/Zensig2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:30 PM
Geeeeezz, who cares if a La-5 or a La-7 was shot down? Seems too much theoretician in here, who cares about subtypes. IMHO in real life there's no significant difference what exact sub type you shot down. Down is down./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Maybe that wrong ID-ing was an aftereffect of military interligence misinfo./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

If anyone at my Funeral has a long face, I'll never speak to him again.
Stan Laurel



EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:38 PM
Might be sa that I guess: La5 was well known fighter in 1943 but LW did't know nothing about La5FN, then when LW met a La5FN (with semi bubble canopy) then logically named it as La7. There were external differences between plain La5 and La5FN (bubble canopy), on the other hand external differnces between La5FN and La7 are negligible (oil cooler). Are you able to learn La5FN/La7 online? I'm not, but La5 and La5FN/La7, that's something else.

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 05:28 AM
TX-Zen wrote:
-
- MiloMorai wrote:
-
-- So all of Hartmann's 352 'kills' were made by sneaky
-- attacks from the 6
-
- (This post is not direct at you Milo, but the
- comment itself generated enough interest for me to
- reply. No offense meant here just so you know)
-
-
- Hartman can and did dogfight as required....

Yea, I know he had been in dogfight and have to bail out fast as his box's fuel warning flashing and he had no choice but bail out fast before engine cut off. Also what he did "dogfight is in his defensive mode to make himself more difficult target. However when he in attacking mode in dogfight, he may not do well in off angle shooting or able to aim zone where bullet will landing as plane fly into. Anyone upland/fowl hunters? They will understand what I talk about aim to empty space in front of bird. Finally he just so good is sneak and shoot them in point blank as I dont know how great markmanship he is. Got it?

Yes, Erich is great pilot and leadership to everyone but may poor markmanship as opposite to Hans-Joachim Marseille's superb markmanship and more stuff however Hans may be poor leadership and give ordering as he is so brat and fool around. I wonder if Hans still alive, then he still will so deadly to enemy no matter how enemy's top plane performance. I wonder what variant of Me-109 in 1944 he will prefer to fly. Maybe he don't need Kari or very late model Gustav.

Regards
SnowLeopard