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View Full Version : OT: alternate WWII aircraft/ situation universe....



XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 06:09 AM
been thinkin,


FM, and other issues are important to real life craft. if it wasnt wellllll, we've all seen the posts.

but what if a fictional scenario, and fictional aircraft were used?

lets say someone modeled aircraft that looked right for that era, yet didnt display any features to be a specific fighter. that way you could achieve "realistic" FM, but was not REAL on any terms. maybe guns were in vertical stacks on the wings rather than horizontal. or maybe props in the rear of the plane instead of the front? a quad landing gear, or whatever.

all the countries are still the same. just different aircraft than what were used to. no p-40s, yaks,migs, anything weve ever seen. but are introduced to craft that "look" like a german ,british, russian design but fresh and new.

i understand that we play because we want to see what it was like to fly them back then.(or remember) but a part of me would love to try something new that doesnt have anything to relate to for an arguments worth. that way we dont have an overmod/undermod/this isnt rightlook at the specs sheet/ ufo/ scenario. nothing will get rid of an argument, but if we dont have anything to base it off of...

im actualy not bnitichg about IL-2, i just have lots of alternative ideas id like to see in a sim. because so far i only see 2 types.

1. real sim based on true data ala IL2, FS2004

2. game sim like "crimson skies" "ace combat 4"

could there be a 3 at some point? fake..but damn, if it existed..this is pretty damn close.

curious, what are your thoughts

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 06:09 AM
been thinkin,


FM, and other issues are important to real life craft. if it wasnt wellllll, we've all seen the posts.

but what if a fictional scenario, and fictional aircraft were used?

lets say someone modeled aircraft that looked right for that era, yet didnt display any features to be a specific fighter. that way you could achieve "realistic" FM, but was not REAL on any terms. maybe guns were in vertical stacks on the wings rather than horizontal. or maybe props in the rear of the plane instead of the front? a quad landing gear, or whatever.

all the countries are still the same. just different aircraft than what were used to. no p-40s, yaks,migs, anything weve ever seen. but are introduced to craft that "look" like a german ,british, russian design but fresh and new.

i understand that we play because we want to see what it was like to fly them back then.(or remember) but a part of me would love to try something new that doesnt have anything to relate to for an arguments worth. that way we dont have an overmod/undermod/this isnt rightlook at the specs sheet/ ufo/ scenario. nothing will get rid of an argument, but if we dont have anything to base it off of...

im actualy not bnitichg about IL-2, i just have lots of alternative ideas id like to see in a sim. because so far i only see 2 types.

1. real sim based on true data ala IL2, FS2004

2. game sim like "crimson skies" "ace combat 4"

could there be a 3 at some point? fake..but damn, if it existed..this is pretty damn close.

curious, what are your thoughts

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 06:14 AM
what if ureguy had invented the atomic bomb first and invaded uganda?http://photos.ar15.com/Galleries/Avatars/8301.gif


http://images.ar15.com/forums/smiles/anim_sniper2.gif
U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

Message Edited on 10/22/0310:16PM by tenmmike

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 06:16 AM
GAU_8 wrote:
- been thinkin,

CRIMSIM SKYS? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 06:24 AM
Another aspect I've been pondering besides your idea(which is very good,btw),is the role of an aircraft designer. I'd love to see a game starting in say,1935, and you choose a country to be loyal to and start your own plane development works. The government of your selected country releases basic requirements of a combat aircraft they want designed,and like in RL,you compete with other companies for a superior design. The technology available to you will depend on the era as well as how much research your company has allocated to certain areas. Basically,you would be seeing planes that LOOKED like they could've been in WWII,but in fact,never existed. What I'm proposing isn't a flight-sim,but a sim of another sort. It's up to you to make all the decisions that Willi Messerschmidt and all the other designers at that time had to make.

47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 06:31 AM
NECRO,

thats a jewel of a twist that i proly never would of thought of. me thinks if it was made it would sell.
i would never buy the game "AIRLINER" or whatever it called where you track your business of flight liners.

but i figure if theres a customer base for that, theres GOTTA be one for your gem.

gotta love daydreaming.... keeps the real world at bay, and in check

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 06:37 AM
I've be thinking about a game like that for a long time. I'd prefer it to be set only in the WWII era. Maybe a few years before and a few after. Your right,it probably wouldn't be nearly as exciting as a flight sim,but I'd definately buy it if it were made(and if it were any good). I have sooo many different designs floating around in the ol noggin./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg


Message Edited on 10/23/0312:39AM by necrobaron

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 06:50 AM
Neat idea. Indeed, your enemy is your direct competition, not the enemy of your country, and so your motivation as Player may differ from that of your country, as it often did in real life.

Of course, naturally, one must test your company's or design bureau's product. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif So it needs to be a flight sim. Does it have to have AI or something to match your design against in mock combat? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Another thing, that high up, you must be part of the diabolical Political schemes and Evil machinations. You can make decisions that will help you get more research and factory expansion money, but you sacrifice something in your design. Say your design is getting old, and your competition has something new and fresh. Should I save time and stretch the old, or start a new design. Should I go monoplane, or stay with biplane? (you know, they say once you go Triplane, you never go back)

Is your country advancing or retreating? If advancing, your probability of getting requirement for long range will rise, if retreating your customer wants short range--longer range means more expense to design and manufacture. Is your aircraft easy to maintain by the troops or are the advantages, if any, of your design worth that trouble? If not, can you still buy political cover and keep your design in the field over any better competition, if any?

(CR42, Polikarpov swore by biplanes as late as 1939 when all his engineers wanted to move on and get a life).

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 07:15 AM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- Neat idea. Indeed, your enemy is your direct
- competition, not the enemy of your country, and so
- your motivation as Player may differ from that of
- your country, as it often did in real life.
-
- Of course, naturally, one must test your company's
- or design bureau's product. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif So it needs to be a flight sim.
- Does it have to have AI or something to match your
- design against in mock combat? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
-
- Another thing, that high up, you must be part of the
- diabolical Political schemes and Evil machinations.
- You can make decisions that will help you get more
- research and factory expansion money, but you
- sacrifice something in your design. Say your design
- is getting old, and your competition has something
- new and fresh. Should I save time and stretch the
- old, or start a new design. Should I go monoplane,
- or stay with biplane? (you know, they say once you
- go Triplane, you never go back)
-
- Is your country advancing or retreating? If
- advancing, your probability of getting requirement
- for long range will rise, if retreating your
- customer wants short range--longer range means more
- expense to design and manufacture. Is your aircraft
- easy to maintain by the troops or are the
- advantages, if any, of your design worth that
- trouble? If not, can you still buy political cover
- and keep your design in the field over any better
- competition, if any?
-
- (CR42, Polikarpov swore by biplanes as late as 1939
- when all his engineers wanted to move on and get a
- life).

You've definately got the idea,Lexx. What you posted is exactly what I had in mind.

47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 07:43 AM
very deep indeed lex.

technically, i think both ideas here game wise would be a really interesting sim(s)

the flight fm, would have all of the traits of what you manufactured in first game, then when you go to the stand alone flight sim, you get to see it as a combat pilot how to first hand explore strenghts and weaknesses...

maybe that "underside aircraft ejection" seat didnt pan out the way you thought it would in combat. or the "vertical tandem seat" had added pluses you never forsaw like added visibility

hmm

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 03:06 PM
im sure in a design sim, you would have to use basic templates or a scripting for basic themes for example

drop tanks- here you would click what the item is themed as, design it. if it was to be an above wing drop tank, click on a box that has editiable properties/information, enter in new parameters. now you would have a drop tank that jettisons upwards a few feet...then falls behind the aircraft.

of course there are numerous complexities i havent thought of to that, but im sure a nice compromise is out there.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 04:25 PM
This sounds pretty much like a grown up Crimson Skies. I like the idea, it would be fun.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 04:34 PM
tenmmike wrote:
- what if ureguy had invented the atomic bomb first
- and invaded uganda

Why should a country placed in south america invade (pretty hard..ship troups over the ocean and roll through several other african countries) a country in central africa ?

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

http://franz.lampl.bei.t-online.de/toryusig.jpg (http://www.virtual-jabog32.de)

http://franz.lampl.bei.t-online.de/toryusig2.jpg (http://www.jg68.de.vu)

When once you have tasted flight,
you will always walk the earth
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to where you have been
and to where you always want to return.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 06:14 PM
An interesting idea to be sure, however the question of realism and detail will be a difficult one. Of course, one option would be to just have templates that you add on an aircraft, like choose from 10 different wing designs, etc. However this does not allow for much creativity. If you include more options, go down to a finer level of detail, the game would then require a certain level of aerospace engineering knowledge and be inaccessible to the general public. Furthermore, it will require a large effort on the part of the development team. At its most sophisticated, this would no longer be a game but an engineering design tool for WWII aircraft.

Now what could happen, is that you would have an online virtual war, with groups of dedicated individuals(design teams) designing planes using this "tool". Then you have another group of players flying these planes against each other. However, this would take a lot of time and effort, to bring into being and I don't think anyone is willing right now.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 08:36 PM
KrasniyYastreb wrote:
- An interesting idea to be sure, however the question
- of realism and detail will be a difficult one. Of
- course, one option would be to just have templates
- that you add on an aircraft, like choose from 10
- different wing designs, etc. However this does not
- allow for much creativity. If you include more
- options, go down to a finer level of detail, the
- game would then require a certain level of aerospace
- engineering knowledge and be inaccessible to the
- general public. Furthermore, it will require a large
- effort on the part of the development team. At its
- most sophisticated, this would no longer be a game
- but an engineering design tool for WWII aircraft.
-
- Now what could happen, is that you would have an
- online virtual war, with groups of dedicated
- individuals(design teams) designing planes using
- this "tool". Then you have another group of players
- flying these planes against each other. However,
- this would take a lot of time and effort, to bring
- into being and I don't think anyone is willing right
- now.
-

Well,it could use an engine similar to X-Plane. In X-Plane,the models behave depending on the design that is built. For example,the creator of X-Plane could get the exact measurements of an F-16 and the FM program automatically reproduces the exact flight characteristics based on those measurements. MS Flight Simulator instead uses charts and graphs on certain aircraft and in turn isn't quite as accurate or realistic. At least this is what I understand....

47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 08:48 PM
tenmmike wrote:
- what if ureguy had invented the atomic bomb first
- and invaded uganda?

Ureguy???? Do you mean Uruguay? Go back and take Geography 101! LOL!

GATO_LOCO

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 09:00 PM
- Well,it could use an engine similar to X-Plane. In
- X-Plane,the models behave depending on the design
- that is built. For example,the creator of X-Plane
- could get the exact measurements of an F-16 and the
- FM program automatically reproduces the exact flight
- characteristics based on those measurements. MS
- Flight Simulator instead uses charts and graphs on
- certain aircraft and in turn isn't quite as accurate
- or realistic. At least this is what I understand....

I didn't know such a program existed! I wonder if it does static load and vibration analysis for the airframe? Maybe it is not so hard to do as I thought.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 09:50 PM
Someone who plays or knows more about X-Plane could probably tell you more about it than I can. It sounds like a pretty cool program...

47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:03 AM
Ive seen the X-PLANE "sim" before, and it looks interesting.
i cant remember if it is its own game..or an add-on for fs2002.. anyone know? or have?

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:30 AM
Try this site: www.x-plane.com (http://www.x-plane.com)

S~ WartHog
flying USAAF_352_HO_G

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:36 AM
thanx USAAF,


i can see where if a game out of both ideas came out would be quite fun. and proly quite grey matter intensive.

but on the original post topic.

if an alternate universe WWII sim was out, and just as in depth as any other hard core sim. would YOU as a hardcore simmers be interested, or do you factual planes?

i think if its as in depth as sturm or lo-mac or whatever the "latest n greatest" is, it would be a refreshing break.

love to hear whatcha think

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 05:23 AM
I'd probably get it. I love history but it's fun to delve into the world of "What if?" as long as it stays believable.

47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg