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Hristo_
06-11-2005, 08:35 AM
It is that time again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Please, post all your data about Fw 190 speeds. Charts, diagrams, tests, anything you have.

Then we compare them to what we have in this sim.

Thank you

OldMan____
06-11-2005, 09:16 AM
hristo, curent max speed (at SL ) is same on all FW as it was. Just people did not got yet the new facny tehcnique needed to do it. Auto pitch now is FASTER.. but you need to get into manual pitch for 1 or 2 seconds then get back to auto to pass a funny speed limit that now seems to be around 5 kph lower than max speed.

DonÔ┬┤t know anything about speed at higher altitudes (the calssic 2000m bug in Dora for example)

robban75
06-11-2005, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
DonÔ┬┤t know anything about speed at higher altitudes (the calssic 2000m bug in Dora for example)

I sure hope it is fixed, the Antons were affected from this bug as well.

OldMan____
06-11-2005, 10:39 AM
Do you have som data on speed at this altitude? I will do some testing here. But not exactly at 2000 if at 200 I just pass a supercharger gera (then I will drop 50 meters or so to ge real speed)

robban75
06-11-2005, 10:41 AM
I'm afraid I don't. My HD crashed a week ago. Everything I had on it has been lost. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

OldMan____
06-11-2005, 10:44 AM
I got to 628 TAs at 2050 meters with Dora 44. Does this match RL ? But to reach this you need to emply the trick I described.

tigertalon
06-11-2005, 12:40 PM
That's all I got, guys, hope it helps. (And I think I got it mostly from you, Robban, so if you need it, it's here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif BTW, I bet u used IMB disc, didn't you? Mine crashed some 2 years ago).

So, Robban, how about a 4.0 test, manual and auto prop for D9 at 2k? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Seems to me D9 is still too slow at low alt...

Fw190D9 horisontal speed table (http://jagdhund.homestead.com/files/DoraData/horizontalgeschwindigkeiten.htm)

The charts:

Here, comparative speedchart of A8, A9, D9, D12 and Ta152H1:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/Fw190charts/Fw190speedchart.jpg

Speed and climb chart for A8:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/Fw190charts/Fw190A8speedchart.jpg

A5:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/Fw190charts/fw190_A5_speed.gif

D9:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/Fw190charts/d9speed2chart.jpg

D9 climb chart:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/Fw190charts/d9climb.jpg

robban75
06-11-2005, 12:47 PM
These are the speeds I could reach in-game (3.04)compared with the speeds the D-9 was capable of in real life.

D-9 '44

Alt -- game - real

1000 - 619 - 639
2000 - 633 - 656
3000 - 647 - 667
4000 - 670 - 685
5000 - 705 - 702

D-9 '45

Alt -- game - real

1000 - 624 - 631
2000 - 617 - 650
3000 - 640 - 659
4000 - 674 - 675
5000 - 697 - 691

p1ngu666
06-11-2005, 12:54 PM
maybe someone at 1c loves teh 109 but hates teh 190 ?

OldMan____
06-11-2005, 12:57 PM
Well at medium alt FW are indeed slower that these previous tests show. At 5K I got only 670

robban75
06-11-2005, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
I bet u used IMB disc, didn't you? Mine crashed some 2 years ago).

It was an SATA drive, but now it's a JUNK drive. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


So, Robban, how about a 4.0 test, manual and auto prop for D9 at 2k? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

My computer is still screwed, so I'm forced to use my girlfriends computer. And it doesn't have the power to run the game I'm afraid. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

3.JG51_Stecher
06-11-2005, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
hristo, curent max speed (at SL ) is same on all FW as it was. Just people did not got yet the new facny tehcnique needed to do it. Auto pitch now is FASTER.. but you need to get into manual pitch for 1 or 2 seconds then get back to auto to pass a funny speed limit that now seems to be around 5 kph lower than max speed.

Manual 100% prop pitch has always been and still is necessary to reach the Anton's top speed at sea level. The Dora is faster on auto prop pitch. Using the A-6, it used to go 580, now it's 575. On auto it drops to 569, that is not faster. When switching between manual and auto, both ways, there is a 2-3 km/h increase for a couple seconds, but it does not hold it unless you keep going back and forth rapidly.

LEBillfish
06-12-2005, 01:32 AM
"I don't know am asking"...But isn't auto pitch the supposed best "blending" of performance, economy and longevity? Not the absolute finest performance which sucks down fuel and wears the engine?

Hunde_3.JG51
06-12-2005, 02:30 AM
FW-190 had "kommandogerat" system which automatically regulated prop-pitch along with other numerous functions all tied into the throttle. This was not a mechanism for cruise or economy and did not need to be disengaged to get maximum performance. Sometimes it is even referred to, or likened to, an early version of the computer chips found in todays cars in that it regulated internal/engine functions automatically. Since I can remember the 190A's in-game all have to use manual pitch to get to proper speeds but this causes very fast overheat. On auto they are slower than indicated except for 190D which is faster on auto pitch. The kommandogerat system was seen as very pilot friendly and reduced workload, but in FB/PF you lose some performance and don't really get the benefit from it. We are not there in terms of simulations I guess so maybe it will be more beneficial in BOB as engine management complexity increases.

ELKASKONE
06-12-2005, 05:38 AM
D-9 '44

Alt -- game - real

1000 - 619 - 639
2000 - 633 - 656
3000 - 647 - 667
4000 - 670 - 685
5000 - 705 - 702

D-9 '45

Alt -- game - real

1000 - 624 - 631
2000 - 617 - 650
3000 - 640 - 659
4000 - 674 - 675
5000 - 697 - 691[/QUOTE]

...and dont forget this Performance is with ETC504!

OldMan____
06-12-2005, 05:45 AM
Originally posted by 3.JG51_Stecher:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
hristo, curent max speed (at SL ) is same on all FW as it was. Just people did not got yet the new facny tehcnique needed to do it. Auto pitch now is FASTER.. but you need to get into manual pitch for 1 or 2 seconds then get back to auto to pass a funny speed limit that now seems to be around 5 kph lower than max speed.

Manual 100% prop pitch has always been and still is necessary to reach the Anton's top speed at sea level. The Dora is faster on auto prop pitch. Using the A-6, it used to go 580, now it's 575. On auto it drops to 569, that is not faster. When switching between manual and auto, both ways, there is a 2-3 km/h increase for a couple seconds, but it does not hold it unless you keep going back and forth rapidly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

not my results... just do as I said.. reach your max at auto, then go to 100% for 3 sec.. than back to auto for 5 seconds.. repeat several times.. you will gain 2 kph each time. A6581 here. Dora 45 615 this way.

Beckh_3.JG51
06-12-2005, 05:57 AM
What about roll rate, it seems to be slower in 4.0, or it just me? Anybody got some info on that?

Thanks.

Codex1971
06-12-2005, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by Beckh_3.JG51:
What about roll rate, it seems to be slower in 4.0, or it just me? Anybody got some info on that?

Thanks.

I think the reason is that the torque is being modelled now.

3.JG51_Stecher
06-12-2005, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
not my results... just do as I said.. reach your max at auto, then go to 100% for 3 sec.. than back to auto for 5 seconds.. repeat several times.. you will gain 2 kph each time. A6581 here. Dora 45 615 this way.

The increase in speed due to the switching between manual and auto is 2-3 km/h, but it's only temporary. You need to keep switching every few seconds to hold that extra tiny bit, but it does not build on top of each other. It can only get you 2-3 km/h over the regular top speed. The reason your speed continues to increase a little is because of the time you spend on manual, and because you are starting from the lower top speed that auto gives you.

I did exactly as you said, and started from my auto top speed of 569, switching between auto and manual gradually gets it up to 577-578, but just going to manual gets you 575. Again, it's the manual that increases your speed from auto, and the switching that gives is a bit over that, but it will only continue if you do as well. If I turn wind on, the switching got it up to 582 heading 135 degrees.

OldMan____
06-12-2005, 07:54 AM
No no. I tested several times. When you are at very high RPM from manual.. and changes to greater pitch you get a moment extra punch. And this DOES build up upon each other. It works in other planes also if you use a pitch slider. I can make P38 late go to 605 kph this way.. and KEEP that speed.

With most planes I can get at least 10 extra kph. And KEEP that speed..


If you just keep on manual 100% you wont go that fast.

3.JG51_Stecher
06-12-2005, 03:47 PM
Okay, I think we're doing the same thing, just looking at it differently. I did get 582 with your method and wind. When you say you can KEEP that speed, you mean that you have to keep doing the switching to keep it, corret?

OldMan____
06-12-2005, 04:21 PM
Yeap.. but MUCh less ofthen than what was required to reach it. I need to cicle each 10 seconds or so.

OldMan____
06-12-2005, 04:50 PM
Also remade some tests.With a6 without wind I et to 579 kph. Only 4 kph increase in speed. But wiht Dora you will get much more from this technique. Also in P38 you will get some more juice.

LLv34_Stafroty
06-12-2005, 05:27 PM
i like this when low fuel level forces pilots to break off from fights,s o one has not to fight to to very end, it makes fights more realistic. Dunno if fuel consumption is too high for gruise power settings, at least it feels good at full power settings, that juice runs fast.

OldMan____
06-12-2005, 05:49 PM
At best fuel consumption settings in FW (55% power and lowest RPm setting possible) fuel burns TWICE as fast as it should. This is not helping fights to be realistic since most fights now take place at < 2000m. No one wants to sepend half the fuel to get to 5k or 6 k meters.

Fuel is not burning slower when you reduce power form 85% to 60% for example. So something is wrong.

CUJO_1970
06-12-2005, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by Beckh_3.JG51:
What about roll rate, it seems to be slower in 4.0, or it just me? Anybody got some info on that?

Thanks.


The FW190 roll rate is too slow in 4.0 by about 30% at some speeds, just as it was in the previous two betas.

For example, at 500kph the average rate of roll is about 84 deg/sec.

The correct rate of roll is ~121 deg/sec.

This is a known and confirmed problem, already tested and reported, and hopefully will be addressed in the official 4.01 patch.

tigertalon
06-13-2005, 01:43 AM
A question arises to me: What does those curves on graphs mean? Maximum speed, that could be kept for a reasonable amount of time, e.g. sustained, on the verge of overheating etc etc. or is it just a momentally reachable speed by pushing every part of plane to its limits, overheating, overreving etc and a plane almost have to be scraped after?

Since I hardly doubt this second one is the case, I think we do have a "low alt Fw190 speed bug" here.

Thanks for clarifying it to me.

Hristo_
06-13-2005, 04:17 AM
Originally posted by CUJO_1970:



The FW190 roll rate is too slow in 4.0 by about 30% at some speeds, just as it was in the previous two betas.

For example, at 500kph the average rate of roll is about 84 deg/sec.

The correct rate of roll is ~121 deg/sec.

This is a known and confirmed problem, already tested and reported, and hopefully will be addressed in the official 4.01 patch.

Thanks ! One can only wish for testers like you.

Oleg and Ivan ?

Hristo_
06-15-2005, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by CUJO_1970:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beckh_3.JG51:
What about roll rate, it seems to be slower in 4.0, or it just me? Anybody got some info on that?

Thanks.


The FW190 roll rate is too slow in 4.0 by about 30% at some speeds, just as it was in the previous two betas.

For example, at 500kph the average rate of roll is about 84 deg/sec.

The correct rate of roll is ~121 deg/sec.

This is a known and confirmed problem, already tested and reported, and hopefully will be addressed in the official 4.01 patch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm getting 110 deg/sec in 4.01.

ICDP
06-15-2005, 12:00 PM
I have noticed that the rollrate of the Fw190A starts dropping at slower speeds than it should (compared to NACA rollrate chart).

Fw190A8 rollrate in degrees per second (DPS) at 10000 feet
(speeds are in IAS)

I completed 3 rolls and averaged the results.

180MPH = 126DPS (matches chart)
220MPH = 149DPS (matches chart)
260MPH = 101DPS (155 in NACA chart)
300MPH = 79DPS (130 in NACA chart)
340MPH = 62DPS (103 in NACA chart)
380MPH = 59DPS (82 in NACA chart)

So the lower speed rollrate is fine but since the Fw190 needs to be flown at higher speeds (250MPH+) this is not a good thing. In my findings the rollrate at the Fw190's ideal speeds is out by quite a margin.

There are claims that the the top speeds of the Fw190A have been reduced in 4.00. I tested the Fw190A4 and Fw190A5 SL topspeeds and found the following results.

Tested on Crimea map, 12:00PM, clear, using manual prop pitch.

Fw190A4 = 556KPH (TAS)
Fw190A5 = 581KPH (TAS)
Fw190D9 = 602KPH (TAS) 1944
Fw190D9 = 609KPH (TAS) 1945

I find these speeds to be roughly indentical to v 3.04 and well within acceptable range for the Fw190.

I also tested the P51B/C and found the rollrate also suffers at higher speeds but not by as high a margin as the Fw190A. So I find this problem is not limited to the Fw190.

P51B
180MPH = 78DPS (63 in NACA chart)
220MPH = 92DPS (78 in NACA chart)
260MPH = 106DPS (90 in NACA chart)
300MPH = 100DPS (94 in NACA chart) <- close
340MPH = 82DPS (93 in NACA chart)
380MPH = 66DPS (88 in NACA chart)

So as we can see the P51B rollrate is out at very high speed but at low speeds it is better in the sim. The P51B doesn't suffer nearly as bad as the Fw190A, in fact it comes out quite well over the NACA numbers apart from very high speeds.

I hope some find these tests relevant. I tested by recording a trak and playing back a 1/4 speed than averaging out 3 360 rolls.

I have posted to the devs about the Fw190A rollrate.

ICDP
06-15-2005, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Hristo_:
I'm getting 110 deg/sec in 4.01.

Are you using rudder input, what is your joystick and settings. It could be possible that this (and other perceived FM bugs) are hardware related. I have tested this with 2 different joysticks and the times are very close.

Tested in v 4.00 and 4.01 and the times are pretty identical, I would estimate that I could replicate these rollrates to within a few DPS in each version.

jagdmailer
06-15-2005, 12:23 PM
Seems to me that overall, the Butcher bird is a better dogfighter, but it's reputated roll rate has been severely castrated. I wander if it is accurate now....seems not much better toll rate than 109 which was my main ride before.

Jagd

Hristo_
06-15-2005, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by ICDP:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristo_:
I'm getting 110 deg/sec in 4.01.

Are you using rudder input, what is your joystick and settings. It could be possible that this (and other perceived FM bugs) are hardware related. I have tested this with 2 different joysticks and the times are very close.

Tested in v 4.00 and 4.01 and the times are pretty identical, I would estimate that I could replicate these rollrates to within a few DPS in each version. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No rudder, roughly 500 kph on the deck, 100% fuel. I rolled three complete circles (1080 degrees to both sides). It took 10.2 seconds each time, for each side. That is roughly 110 deg/sec.

My stick scaling in roll is 100 for all sliders.

lrrp22
06-15-2005, 02:06 PM
Actually, there has been a large amount of discussion regarding D-9 top speeds on some other boards, all based on origianl documents, and the consensus is that the figures posted are definitely without the ETC 504 and are actually calculated.


Originally posted by ELKASKONE:
D-9 '44

Alt -- game - real

1000 - 619 - 639
2000 - 633 - 656
3000 - 647 - 667
4000 - 670 - 685
5000 - 705 - 702

D-9 '45

Alt -- game - real

1000 - 624 - 631
2000 - 617 - 650
3000 - 640 - 659
4000 - 674 - 675
5000 - 697 - 691

...and dont forget this Performance is with ETC504![/QUOTE]

ELKASKONE
06-15-2005, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by lrrp22:
Actually, there has been a large amount of discussion regarding D-9 top speeds on some other boards, all based on origianl documents, and the consensus is that the figures posted are definitely without the ETC 504 and are actually calculated.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ELKASKONE:
D-9 '44

Alt -- game - real

1000 - 619 - 639
2000 - 633 - 656
3000 - 647 - 667
4000 - 670 - 685
5000 - 705 - 702

D-9 '45

Alt -- game - real

1000 - 624 - 631
2000 - 617 - 650
3000 - 640 - 659
4000 - 674 - 675
5000 - 697 - 691

...and dont forget this Performance is with ETC504! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>[/QUOTE]

But the document say:
Bewaffnung - 2x MG131 + 2xMK151 + ETC504

I think witout ETC504 D9 will reach 574km/h at 0m with Start& Notleistung and B4 Fuel,
with ETC 504 it reaches 568km/h.
The ETC 504 had a slightly better drag coefficient I would estimate speed penalty of about 6km/h.
I read also something on Boards,Luftwaffe Experten...but this is my opinion!
Sorry for my bad English!

Buzzsaw-
06-15-2005, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by jagdmailer:
Seems to me that overall, the Butcher bird is a better dogfighter, but it's reputated roll rate has been severely castrated. I wander if it is accurate now....seems not much better toll rate than 109 which was my main ride before.

Jagd

Salute

The 109's rollrate is vastly overmodelled, especially at high speeds. The historical aircraft rolled like a Spitfire with standard wingtips.

ELKASKONE
06-15-2005, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by ELKASKONE:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lrrp22:
Actually, there has been a large amount of discussion regarding D-9 top speeds on some other boards, all based on origianl documents, and the consensus is that the figures posted are definitely without the ETC 504 and are actually calculated.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ELKASKONE:
D-9 '44

Alt -- game - real

1000 - 619 - 639
2000 - 633 - 656
3000 - 647 - 667
4000 - 670 - 685
5000 - 705 - 702

D-9 '45

Alt -- game - real

1000 - 624 - 631
2000 - 617 - 650
3000 - 640 - 659
4000 - 674 - 675
5000 - 697 - 691

...and dont forget this Performance is with ETC504! </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the document say:
Bewaffnung - 2x MG131 + 2xMK151 + ETC504

I think witout ETC504 D9 will reach 574km/h at 0m with Start& Notleistung and B4 Fuel,
with ETC 504 it reaches 568km/h.
The ETC 504 had a slightly better drag coefficient I would estimate speed penalty of about 6km/h.
I read also something on Boards,Luftwaffe Experten...but this is my opinion!
Sorry for my bad English![/QUOTE]

And in a Document from 01.10.44,
Fw190D9,4300kg,2x MG131 + 2xMG151:

Notleistung - 0m - 576km/h
Notleistung - 0m - 612km/h with MW50
Notleistung - 5700m - 702km/h with MW50
Notleistung - 6600m - 685km/h
Kampfleistung - 6600m - 675km/h

robban75
06-15-2005, 11:30 PM
The speeds I posted was without the ETC504 rack. I just added 6km/h to the speeds from the charts. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

ELKASKONE
06-16-2005, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by robban75:
The speeds I posted was without the ETC504 rack. I just added 6km/h to the speeds from the charts. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Thats very very true!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Next time i look better! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Dora without boost -
Data Document from 01.10.44
Notleistung - 0m - 576km/h - 1770PS(Stand Dez.44)
Notleistung - 6600m - 685km/h
Kampfleistung - 6600m - 675km/h

Dora without boost & with ETC504
Data Document from 11.03.45
Notleistung - 0m - 568km/h
Notleistung - 6600m - 678km/h
Kampfleistung - 6600m - 667km/h

Dora with Ladedrucksteigerungs- R├╝stsatz
Notleistung - 0m - ???km/h - 1900PS
Notleistung - ????m - ???km/h

Dora with Ladedrucksteigerungs - R├╝stsatz & MW50
-Data Document from 03.01.45
Notleistung - 0m - 622km/h - 2250PS
Notleistung - 4700m - 695km/h

Dora with MW50
- Data from Document from 01.10.44
Notleistung - 0m - 612km/h - 2100PS(Stand Dez.44)
Notleistung - 5700m - 702km/h

Dora with MW50 & with ETC504
- Data from Document from 11.03.45
Notleistung - 0m - 605km/h
Notleistung - 5400m - 693km/h

Dora with A-Lader als Bodenmotor
- Data from Document from 11.03.45 with ETC504
Notleistung - 0m - 640km/h - ????PS
Notleistung - 3500m - 698km/h