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View Full Version : Hurrican flap settings ARE wrong



XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:37 PM
Please have a look at my post in the general discussion room.

Heres the link

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=ywbgm

As you can read from that discussion the flap modelling on the Hurricane is wrong. I can understand you limiting the flap to 3 positions for ease of programming and gameplay, after all it would mean a whole new method of controlling the flaps if we were to control them as is done in the real aircraft, ie flaps at any degree the pilot wishes. But to limit the hurricane to landing flaps only, i'm afraid that is nonsense. Please give me back my three stages of dflap at least. Pretty please.

Not only would it please me but it would be correct to real life.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:37 PM
Please have a look at my post in the general discussion room.

Heres the link

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=ywbgm

As you can read from that discussion the flap modelling on the Hurricane is wrong. I can understand you limiting the flap to 3 positions for ease of programming and gameplay, after all it would mean a whole new method of controlling the flaps if we were to control them as is done in the real aircraft, ie flaps at any degree the pilot wishes. But to limit the hurricane to landing flaps only, i'm afraid that is nonsense. Please give me back my three stages of dflap at least. Pretty please.

Not only would it please me but it would be correct to real life.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:42 PM
I don't know about the specific case but, have you ever tried assigning the flaps to a slider?
Go and check, you might be surprised...


A.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:46 PM
p.s forgot to add;

I shall dig out my copy of the original pilots notes tonite and post an extract on the 'flaps procedure'

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:47 PM
Please see:
http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=ztyaz

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:50 PM
I`m not an expert on WWII planes and and the specifics of what they could do aerodynamically...

I mean I didn`t even know till recently that Spits in BOB suffered from neg-Gs! But as long as Classicaero has his facts straight I`ll support him all the way! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

(in other words- bump!)





"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).

Thomasew
11-10-2003, 08:25 PM
Hi


Although I was pretty sure that the Hurricane had 'variable' flaps, .. I checked it out anyway.

The Flaps are adjustable in 5 degree increments, up to a maximum of 80 degrees.

I almost exclusively fly the Hurricane, and to have just one Flap position i.e. Full Down (Landing), will most certainly detract from my enjoyment of flying the Aircraft.

I hope that Oleg et al, will consider this, and rectify the situation with the Hurricane.


Thanks for your consideration.


Cheers
Tom

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 08:42 PM
If i am not mistaken the FB out of the box Hurricane had variable flap settings

http://server2.uploadit.org/files/291003-01anoseart_us_08.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 08:47 PM
elvive wrote:
- If i am not mistaken the FB out of the box Hurricane
- had variable flap settings


You are absolutely right mate out of the box it had better flaps than now. Backwards progress, is the new forwards progress dont you know, lol.



"All pilots start with a two bags, one full of luck, the other, an empty one for experiece, the trick is to fill the latter before former runs out"

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 09:07 PM
Map flaps to a slider. Perfection.

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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 09:14 PM
Maybe so, but it does not make sense to take away the combat/takeoff/landing flap settings from the hurricane.

Are we saying that on a slider the flaps are fully variable, but on the keyboard they are either fully up or fully down? That makes no sense at all. On the hurricane, flaps should be variable on either control.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 09:15 PM
I wish i had a slider de dum de diddle dum

http://server2.uploadit.org/files/291003-01anoseart_us_08.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 09:41 PM
Eventually we'll all pull an RBJ and map everything on a slider, but for now, just deal with it. Hurri's a great Turnfighter and also a great spitter of lead (would have used leadspitter but that would bring him into the argument) Get behind your target and spit away! (Early Hurri's at least) The other Hurri's you shoud get really close and spit less often. Though generally, I'd prefer to shoot rather than spit, especially when I'm in an I-16. You should see what happens when you spit into the wind, man!

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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 10:11 PM
wealos need payloads on the hurricane mkiib and C

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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 11:26 PM
mikeyg007 wrote:
- Maybe so, but it does not make sense to take away
- the combat/takeoff/landing flap settings from the
- hurricane.
-
- Are we saying that on a slider the flaps are fully
- variable, but on the keyboard they are either fully
- up or fully down? That makes no sense at all. On the
- hurricane, flaps should be variable on either
- control.
-
-

I posted the extract from the Pilot's Notes when this was changed in the first patch and asked why change things?.

Although the Hurricane could have any flap angle, the arguement for deleting all but landing flap (I believe) was that it would be too difficult to operate the flap lever in combat. It is on the right hand side of the cockpit and would involve taking the left hand off the throttle/prop speed control to hold the stick, while the right hand moved the flaps, all the time keeping an eye on the flap gauge to stop them in the desired position.

I just find it a little hard to believe that the Hurri was the only ac which would not be able to easily select combat flap. I expect the US ac could do it easily as combat flap seems to have been a design feature of most of them. I think the 109 was also meant to use combat flap. I'm 99% sure the Spitfire DID just have up/down flaps. How many Soviet ac were able to easily select some flap in combat? Apart from the I-16 (and I-153 of course) they all can do in the game; did they all have an easier to use flap control than the Hurricane?

I can see the original arguement for deleting the combat/take-off flap settings on the Hurricane, but as you can get around that if you have enough sliders, why not level the playing field again? After all, if some ac will never be made flyable simply because the cockpit graphics can't be made 100% accurate, why should the Hurricane flap settings be made deliberately inaccurate?

Kernow
249 IAP

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 02:06 AM
I think you're right. A very dubious road to go down, arguments about controls being difficult to use. That is so subjective. And in any case when it's so easy to put flaps on the mouse wheel, what's to be gained by denying it to people who happen to use keyboard for flaps? Unfair AND inaccurate.

Good flap control is an important little part of the hurricane's differing strengths from the spitfire; for instance, when landing at night, or operating from poor air strips.

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 03:23 AM
Kernow's spot on.

While this thread was on discussion some time back, I got curious of just how the Hurricane flaps operated, since people were bringing up contradicting reports. One very firmly described that the Hurricanes had two-stage flaps, while the other was a Pilot's Handbook from the HurriMkII. Nobody seemed to know how exactly the flaps operated, so I did some research. When I got my results, the thread died away, so didn't bother to bring back dead horses.

The Hurricanes, had only two-settings with flaps which go "Up" and "Down". It had a really 'eccentric' system which is unfamiliar with pretty much rest of the fighters of that era.

The flaps, and landing gears were controlled with one lever, in a fashion simular to manual transmission gears seen in automobiles - a "H" configuration of 4 lever positions, each initiated the function of "flap up", "flap down", "gear up", "gear down". The pilot would move this one lever to control two systems for four functions.

When the lever was put in the 'neutral' position of that 'H', the function momentarily stops - ie. for using flaps in incremental levels, one would push the lever to one corner to initiate "flap down" function, then move it again to 'neutral' to stop it for a while. To either extend it more or retract it, he'd have to change the lever again.

Literally the same hydraulics system AND mechanical system controls both the flap and the gear, as the same lever controls it's function. This meant a disadvantage, in the fact that a battle damage to the flaps, could also mean the gear systems will be put out of function.

The Hurricane's flaps were not considered as a primary combat control - while the designers noted the need for incremental use par differing landing conditions as the plane approached to land in a slow speed, the stopping of flap deployment in increments via "neutral" position, was never intended for combat use. During a combat of higher speeds, such action of flap deployment, may damage or jam the system, which meant the landing gear system will also be fubared.



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XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 08:35 PM
Perfect description Kweassa /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

And one that reminds me of something I read in the Pilot's Notes. If the flaps were too far down air pressure would partially blow them back up above a certain speed... hang on; I'll find it...

<u>Flaps</u> : If 120 mph IAS is exceeded with the flaps fully down, they will be partially raised by the airflow. They will automatically move to the fully down position when speed is reduced sufficiently provided that the selector lver is left at DOWN.

The current FB set-up, while inaccurate, does give a realistic simulation of the Hurricane (unless you bypass the system with mouse wheel etc). You don't need any flap to take-off in the Huricane according to the Pilot's Notes, although they could be set to take-off. Presumably, if the Hurri could carry stores in FB then the lack of flap setings would become more of an issue.

I'm not convinced of the justification for treating the Hurricane like it is in FB, but as you can still operate the Hurricane as it was supposed to be operated I don't see this as a major problem.

Kernow
249 IAP


Message Edited on 11/12/0301:15PM by Kernow

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 11:44 PM
I agree, the Hurri has no real problems right now and I don't know that combat flaps would help it's already great turning capability. It's takeoff is so easy and it jumps into the air so spritely that I can't comprehend anyone needing flaps for taking off in it.





"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 01:29 PM
Needs forcefully moving to top (bump).



"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).