PDA

View Full Version : captured IL-10s



Rammjaeger
09-04-2007, 05:00 PM
From "Il-2 Stormovik in action", Squadron/Signal publications, Aircraft Number 155:

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x148/Rammjaeger1983/9.jpg

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x148/Rammjaeger1983/10.jpg

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x148/Rammjaeger1983/11.jpg

Any info on what happened to these aircraft after the testing? Were they scrapped?

Rammjaeger
09-04-2007, 05:00 PM
From "Il-2 Stormovik in action", Squadron/Signal publications, Aircraft Number 155:

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x148/Rammjaeger1983/9.jpg

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x148/Rammjaeger1983/10.jpg

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x148/Rammjaeger1983/11.jpg

Any info on what happened to these aircraft after the testing? Were they scrapped?

Waldo.Pepper
09-04-2007, 05:43 PM
From "fading" memory I belief one is held by the Smithsonian collection, and may even be on display in North Korean colours.

Gibbage1
09-04-2007, 10:40 PM
So thats proof that the US copied the IL-10 for its own A-10!

Vipez-
09-04-2007, 10:43 PM
Is there any review how the aircraft performed?

woofiedog
09-05-2007, 01:17 AM
Here is a list of Defections and Captures of Aircraft During the Cold War.

Link: http://home.comcast.net/~anneled/Defections.html (http://home.comcast.net/%7Eanneled/Defections.html)

It
was here on an airfield quickly abandoned by the North
Korean forces that their wildest dreams came true.10
As the Communist forces retreated from the area, they
left behind an impressive treasure trove of aircraft and airrelated
materiel, such as instruments, weapons, ordnance,
and engines. The most valuable of these were two complete
North Korean IL-10/Stormovik aircraft and a Yak-9P fighter.
These represented some of the best aircraft in the enemy
inventory at that particular time in the war, and the ATLOs
realized they had to get these assets back to the United States
for exploitation. Given that their small team was not on
anyone's priority list, even to the point of not having any
vehicles available to them, they did an amazing job in
acquiring these aircraft for air technical intelligence.11
First, the ATLOs managed to get a Russian truck from
a Marine unit and transfer the aircraft, one at a time, from
Kimpo to the port at Inchon, where the United Nations
forces had struck the North Koreans hard and fast just a
few weeks before. Trucking their large assets down the road
was the first challenge; then they had to work out an
"unofficial and unauthorized means" to get the Navy to put
the planes on a ship bound for Japan. From there, Air
Materiel Command could get them home to America. After
a sea voyage, these three aircraft and the associated air
materiel finally made it to San Francisco, where they began
the long journey to Ohio. There, the Intelligence Department
awaited the opportunity to perform flight tests on them,
just like Technical Data Laboratory did during World War
II. Altogether, the ATLOs' take of foreign equipment
weighed more than 90 tons.12
As stated earlier, the Intelligence Department depended
on universities and industry to assist in the study of foreign
air equipment. When the North Korean aircraft arrived in
San Francisco, they were sent on to Cornell Aeronautical
Laboratory, Inc. in Buffalo, New York for initial processing.
The Yak-9P arrived in Buffalo on 26 December 1950, and
the IL-10 aircraft made it on 24 January 1951. Cornell
provided expertise in creating drawings and taking
photographs of the planes' structures, plus it determined
the weight, balance, data plate information, and markings
data for each. This contracted effort provided the Air Force
with quick, accurate technical information on which to base
further testing.

This data derived from the aircraft while at Cornell all
went directly to the Intelligence Department; however, the
process of unmasking the capabilities of the Stormovik was
already well on its way, even as the effort began in Buffalo.
In fact, information from the ATLOs in Korea had already
reached the department and the first product from their
initial exploitation was published by February 1951, shortly
after the aircraft arrived in the United States. Intelligence
Department Study No. 102-AC-50/41-34, "Analysis of the
Soviet IL-10 Ground-Attack Airplane," gave an impressive
technical description of the aircraft, its characteristics and
capabilities, plus vulnerability data. This study came out
before the aircraft even flew here in the United States, thanks
to the indepth analysis of the Intelligence Departmenttrained
ATLOs in the field.14
In Buffalo, Cornell personnel completely assembled
two of the aircraft, fully restoring them to flight condition
and painting them in USAF markings. The Yak-9P had three
shakedown flights by Cornell's chief test pilot before it was
finally ferried to Wright-Patterson AFB on 4 September
1951. The one IL-10 that was returned to flight status first
flew on a 4 May 1951 checkout flight; after another flight,
it was ferried to Wright-Patterson on 8 May 1951. The Air
Force shipped the remaining IL-10 to Dayton, where it
remained stored in building 89 until needed.15
The Yak-9P flight test program consisted of 16 flights
between 21 September 1951 and 12 December 1951. Air
Force pilots accumulated 23 hours, 55 minutes of flying
time in the Yak fighter, which now carried the tail number
T2-3002 (even though "T2" was a holdover from the days
of flight-testing World War II enemy aircraft). The IL-10
flight test program occurred earlier with 11 flights taking
place between 20 June and 15 August 1951. The pilot,
Captain R.L. Stephens put 13 hours, 55 minutes on the
Stormovik with the tail number T2-3000. Although these
propeller-driven aircraft were not as valuable as a complete
Soviet jet would have been, they still provided insight into
how much Soviet aircraft production had improved since
World War II.

woofiedog
09-05-2007, 02:29 AM
Also a bit of a story of Soviet air crews flying against Chinese Nationaist aircraft before Korea.

Link: http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/printer_315.shtml

The Shanghai Graduation

Transforming the VVS from piston to jet force, unifying the training and maintaining combat readiness along the borders that stretched literary from Port Arthur to Berlin was by no means a small task. Especially as hardly few years after the end of the WWII - and while still in the middle of the badly needed reorganizations - the V-VS fighter units were to become involved in the fighting in China.

During the negotiations between Moscow and the new, communist, regime in Beijing, a decision was reached to send a group of Soviet advisors to first provide air defence of Shanghai protecting it from the raids flown by Nationalist Air Force, and then help develop an air defense system - including interceptor units - of the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). The other part of these negotiations was to send a group of Soviet naval officers to raise a modern Chinese Navy and to make all the necessary strategic and operational planning for the invasion of this island Formosa, nowadays known as Taiwan.

These Soviets "advisors" were actually complete combat formations deployed directly from the ranks of the newly formed PVO (5) forces. The cores of the two divisions sent were three aviation regiments. One was equipped with MiG-15 and assigned for bomber interception, the second equipped with La-11 fighters for night fighting and the last one was the mixed ground attack regiment with Tu-2s and Il-10s.
Since the loss- and kill-claims for the Kuomintang forces for that period are unavailable we can only submit the Soviet advisors kill tally, which finals at no losses in combat, admitting one Tu-2 was lost to friendly fire (5) while a MiG-15 and a La-11 were lost in accidents. The La-11 scored two B-25s and shot down another pair of Mustangs. The first victory for the MiG-15 came when Kapitan Kalinikov shot down a Chinese Nationalist P-38 Lightning on the 28th April 1950. Another Liberator fell to the MiG's cannon in the night of 11/12 May, this time the victorious pilot was Kapitan Schinkarenko who was awarded the "Order of Lenin" for his feat.

Apart from seriously hampering the Kuomintang operations the Soviet personnel logged close to 2600 hours spent in training the members of the Chinese Air Defence members.
At the beginning of August 1950 the Soviet advisors started to decrease their role in Shanghai's defence. Everything that the Soviets brought with them including the first model MiG-15 with red and white-stripped rudder was transferred into the Chinese PLA ranks on 19th October 1950. This ended the active participation of the Soviet airmen in the Chinese civil war. For detailed information regarding the beginning of the conflict we now know as China versus Taiwan see the appropriate section here. But we are back in the summer of 1950.

FPSOLKOR
09-05-2007, 03:41 AM
I've talked to Hvalenskii - one of the pilots who was in night-fighter unit first in Shanghai (La-11) and later in Korea (MiG-15). Made over 400 sorties, 1 probable.

Rammjaeger
09-05-2007, 05:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
So thats proof that the US copied the IL-10 for its own A-10! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably not. Both were ground-attack types but that's where the similarities end. The A-10 had neither a defensive gunner nor wing-mounted cannons. I've read though that the experiences and advice of Hans Rudel were taken into consideration during the design process.

Supposedly the main shortcoming of the IL-10 in Korea was that it was unable to fly with fighter cover due to its relatively low speed. It was considered an easy kill for US jet figthers (although fighter pilots generally dislike slow, low-flying targets, as far as I know).

mortoma
09-05-2007, 05:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
So thats proof that the US copied the IL-10 for its own A-10! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably not. Both were ground-attack types but that's where the similarities end. The A-10 had neither a defensive gunner nor wing-mounted cannons. I've read though that the experiences and advice of Hans Rudel were taken into consideration during the design process.

Supposedly the main shortcoming of the IL-10 in Korea was that it was unable to fly with fighter cover due to its relatively low speed. It was considered an easy kill for US jet figthers (although fighter pilots generally dislike slow, low-flying targets, as far as I know). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Dude, Gibbage was only kidding!!

Rammjaeger
09-05-2007, 05:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by woofiedog:
The La-11 scored two B-25s and shot down another pair of Mustangs. The first victory for the MiG-15 came when Kapitan Kalinikov shot down a Chinese Nationalist P-38 Lightning on the 28th April 1950. Another Liberator fell to the MiG's cannon in the night of 11/12 May, this time the victorious pilot was Kapitan Schinkarenko who was awarded the "Order of Lenin" for his feat.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My knowledge of Chinese history is kind of sketchy but AFAIK the civil war ended in late 1949. Did all that air combat take place near Taiwan or where?

woofiedog
09-05-2007, 06:42 AM
Although Chiang Kai-shek move into Taiwan... they were still fighting on the mainland of China. And it has countinued off and on fron both sides till this day.

The last of the fighting ended with the Communist conquest of Hainan Island in May 1950. However, no legal document to officially end the Chinese Civil War has ever been signed. Legally speaking, with both contending governments PRC and ROC still existing, the Chinese Civil War has not been resolved.

Most observers expected Chiang's government to eventually fall in response to a Communist invasion of Taiwan, and the United States initially showed no interest in supporting Chiang's government in its final stand. Things changed radically with the North Korean invasion of South Korea on June 25, 1950, thus triggering the Korean War. At this point, allowing a total Communist victory over Chiang became politically impossible in the United States, and President Harry S. Truman ordered the U.S. 7th Fleet into the Taiwan straits, ending any immediate possibility for a successful Communist invasion.

Meanwhile, on Taiwan, throughout the 1950s and 1960s, intermittent skirmishes occurred throughout the mainland's coastal and peripheral regions, though American reluctance to be drawn into a larger conflict left Chiang Kai-shek too weak to "retake the mainland" as he constantly vowed. ROC fighter aircraft bombed mainland targets and commandos, sometimes numbering up to 80, landed repeatedly on the mainland to kill PLA soldiers, kidnap CCP cadres, destroy infrastructure, and seize documents. The ROC lost about 150 men in one raid in 1964.

The ROC navy conducted low intensity naval raids, and lost some ships in several small battles with the PLA. In June 1949, the ROC declared a "closure" of all mainland ports and its navy attempted to intercept all foreign ships, mainly of British and Soviet-bloc origin. Since the mainland's railroad network was underdeveloped, north-south trade depended heavily on sea lanes. ROC naval activity also caused severe hardship for mainland fishermen.

The Taiwan Strait Crises: 195455 and 1958

Link: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/lw/88751.htm

woofiedog
09-05-2007, 07:23 AM
FPSOLKOR... There is not much written or discussed about a lot the post WWII conflicts and battles, although many were over in day's or weeks. I've read a few half way decent books on the civil war's and other such matters that happened around the globe from 1945 up through the 1980's. But there are not many written accounts from the vet's or participants veiw of such battles. And what is out there written is not far from the same as reading the Wikipedia pages here on the net. Also most give a one sided history of such matters.

As the ranks of vets from WWII are thining daily and so are the people and vet's from these events also. So I enjoy reading these first hand accounts of such history. Although many stories are short in length, they tell a lot about the people and what was happening around them at the time.

At a recent air show I had a great time talking with the people that had flown up with their aircraft or driven up with other vehicles for the show. You pick up alot from these people.

Well I guess I've rambled on long enough. LoL

FPSOLKOR
09-05-2007, 08:07 AM
The main problem for me now - is that time is running short. I ride round the city and suburbs (sometimes a day or two-long journeys) to talk to the vets, and sometimes I find people in good condition. But most of them do not want to talk, or do not want to discuss some things, or simply think that they did not do anything of real significance, what leads to "short interviews". I know of at least 2 more night fighters that fought over Shanghai - Dushin (he is totally deaf and blind) with 5 kills at WWII and 5 more over Shqanghai (till mid 50-s) and Korea, and another pilot from the same squad, phone number of whom i have, but i can't track him. And of course - no time to process the interview's, especiallly in 2 languages....

Rammjaeger
09-05-2007, 08:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
Dude, Gibbage was only kidding!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK then, pardon me. I come across so many far-fetched and idiotic posts it is often hard to tell the difference between sarcastic and serious ones.

Rammjaeger
09-05-2007, 08:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by woofiedog:
Although Chiang Kai-shek move into Taiwan... they were still fighting on the mainland of China. And it has countinued off and on fron both sides till this day.

The last of the fighting ended with the Communist conquest of Hainan Island in May 1950. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then I suppose the air combat between the VVS and the ROC air force in 1950 took place somewhere over the strait of Taiwan.

FPSOLKOR
09-05-2007, 10:57 AM
According to Hvalenskii they shot 2 P-51's over straights (shoreline of the mainland)? and at least 2 B-25's over main base.

major_setback
09-05-2007, 02:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The main problem for me now - is that time is running short. I ride round the city and suburbs (sometimes a day or two-long journeys) to talk to the vets, and sometimes I find people in good condition. But most of them do not want to talk, or do not want to discuss some things, or simply think that they did not do anything of real significance, what leads to "short interviews". I know of at least 2 more night fighters that fought over Shanghai - Dushin (he is totally deaf and blind) with 5 kills at WWII and 5 more over Shqanghai (till mid 50-s) and Korea, and another pilot from the same squad, phone number of whom i have, but i can't track him. And of course - no time to process the interview's, especiallly in 2 languages....
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sounds to me like they have real historic knowledge that should be saved in some way.
It strikes me that some sort of structured interviews with these vets should be conducted to accertain exactly what they experienced. Any socioligists out there willing to do this? It really has to be done by somebody who knows how to interview people. This knowlwdge will disappear when these people go.

woofiedog
09-05-2007, 11:53 PM
FPSOLKOR... Would like to hear some of those stories if you could be so kind as to possibly post a few.

FPSOLKOR
09-06-2007, 03:45 AM
Now a P-40 6 kill ace is being prepared for publication in english... In a couple of weeks i think i'll post a link... As for the rest - they are in que...

Heliopause
09-06-2007, 04:02 AM
This looks like an interesting development http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

woofiedog
09-06-2007, 06:17 AM
FPSOLKOR... Will be looking forward to the article. Thank's

Rammjaeger... I haven't read or see any detailed written accounts of the air battles between the ROC & PLAAF. Only brief writtings of combat kill tallys and etc.
It would be very interesting to me anyway to read more into these air battles. Hopefully more is put into publication.