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View Full Version : A really cool dogfight video (the real kind)



danjama
11-27-2005, 01:31 PM
Hi everyone, hope its been a good Sunday for ya. I popped into the WW2 aviation forum earlier, and found this really cool P51 VS FW190 dogfight clip. Its longer than most clips you findaround, and really detailed. You can make out the yawing by the 190 pilot and clear hits. I wouldnt post it if it wasnt worth uploading http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Comments etc.

Heres the link, the download is at the bottom of the page where it says "your download is ready".

http://www.ihud.com/file.php?file=1133123201/339-01.mpeg

Yambretta
11-27-2005, 01:46 PM
/me wonders if the pilot got out after popping the canopy.

somehow I suspect not judging by the hits in that area afterwards

WTE_Ibis
11-27-2005, 01:58 PM
That's a great clip danjama. Why doesn't the FW pilot use his superior roll I wonder.
That's one thing I've noticed with every dogfight clip I 've seen, the attacked plane doesn't seem to take wild evasive action,it almost seems leasurely.
Certainly not as in the game and as I have said on other threads the clips on fighters attacking bombers the fighters invariably attack from the six o'clock position again not in this game or you are dead.
Good find m8, thanks for posting.
Cheera, Ibis.

.

danjama
11-27-2005, 02:18 PM
"why doesn't the FW pilot use his superior roll I wonder.
That's one thing I've noticed with every dogfight clip I 've seen, the attacked plane doesn't seem to take wild evasive action,it almost seems leasurely."

I reckon itssomething to do with the kinds of pressure and G forces they would be experiencing in RL. We dont feel any of that in game so we can really push our virtual pilots and planes.

SeaFireLIV
11-27-2005, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by WTE_Ibis:
That's a great clip danjama. Why doesn't the FW pilot use his superior roll I wonder.
That's one thing I've noticed with every dogfight clip I 've seen, the attacked plane doesn't seem to take wild evasive action,it almost seems leasurely.
Certainly not as in the game and as I have said on other threads the clips on fighters attacking bombers the fighters invariably attack from the six o'clock position again not in this game or you are dead.
Good find m8, thanks for posting.
Cheera, Ibis.

.

This has always been one of my biggest complaints about combat in the flight sim, especially online. I always felt that way there was too much flipping and twisting. I`ve watched real guncam of fighters and NEVER do i see them madly flipping about. Remember, these guys are fighting for their lives, shouldn`t they be doing every thing possible to get out of it if the aircraft`s able and they may be about to die as the guncam often shows?

Some say that the flipping bits have been missed, but surely there should be at least one guncam showing an internet style wild manouever.

No, pilots couldn`t throw around his plane like they do online for several reasons:
1. The aircraft weren`t manouevrable enough.
2. The pilot physical stresses and exhaustion.
3. Stresses on the aircraft.
4. Fear of stall and death.


As for fighters going in behind bombers - they didn`t. Read the books, watch the docus, every fighter pilot would avoid going behind any bomber with guns. There`s a famous guncam of a Jerry fighter cruelling killing a B17 from the rear. He stays behind that B17 forever, chopping it up. Now because of this footage many reckon this means you could do this normally...

But No. Look carefully, and it`s obvious that previously the rear gunners (belly and rear) had been already incapacitated. The Jerry pilot knew this and knew he could come in fast and keep shooting. For me it`s one of the saddest scenes to watch, what must be going on in that bomber.

I`ll admit that in IL2/FB bombers should be more affected by heavy manouevers and incoming fighter fire... but there you go.

Waldo.Pepper
11-27-2005, 02:52 PM
2. The pilot physical stresses and exhaustion.

Whomever was interviewing the Russian veteran mentioned this as the reason. He said he would black out instantly in reality if he were to toss his plane around like in game.

Also the video is at what 1/4 speed? So he IS trying to roll and evade to save his neck.

danjama
11-27-2005, 03:01 PM
Some say that the flipping bits have been missed, but surely there should be at least one guncam showing an internet style wild manouever.

Guncam footage tends to be slow motion and only a few seconds long (while firing). This may be why.

Also i dont agree that the planes werent maneuverable enough. They certainly were. We will never know for sure anyway. only the men who flew them will.

Sharpe26
11-27-2005, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Ibis:
That's a great clip danjama. Why doesn't the FW pilot use his superior roll I wonder.
That's one thing I've noticed with every dogfight clip I 've seen, the attacked plane doesn't seem to take wild evasive action,it almost seems leasurely.
Certainly not as in the game and as I have said on other threads the clips on fighters attacking bombers the fighters invariably attack from the six o'clock position again not in this game or you are dead.
Good find m8, thanks for posting.
Cheera, Ibis.

.

This has always been one of my biggest complaints about combat in the flight sim, especially online. I always felt that way there was too much flipping and twisting. I`ve watched real guncam of fighters and NEVER do i see them madly flipping about. Remember, these guys are fighting for their lives, shouldn`t they be doing every thing possible to get out of it if the aircraft`s able and they may be about to die as the guncam often shows?

Some say that the flipping bits have been missed, but surely there should be at least one guncam showing an internet style wild manouever.

No, pilots couldn`t throw around his plane like they do online for several reasons:
1. The aircraft weren`t manouevrable enough.
2. The pilot physical stresses and exhaustion.
3. Stresses on the aircraft.
4. Fear of stall and death.


As for fighters going in behind bombers - they didn`t. Read the books, watch the docus, every fighter pilot would avoid going behind any bomber with guns. There`s a famous guncam of a Jerry fighter cruelling killing a B17 from the rear. He stays behind that B17 forever, chopping it up. Now because of this footage many reckon this means you could do this normally...

But No. Look carefully, and it`s obvious that previously the rear gunners (belly and rear) had been already incapacitated. The Jerry pilot knew this and knew he could come in fast and keep shooting. For me it`s one of the saddest scenes to watch, what must be going on in that bomber.

I`ll admit that in IL2/FB bombers should be more affected by heavy manouevers and incoming fighter fire... but there you go. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

let me ad a fifth too that.

5:the shooter had the element of surprise.

danjama
11-27-2005, 03:11 PM
Actually watchin my video again, are you crazy? That 190 pilot is going nuts! He pulls a Negative G fast roll and breaks sharp left! All in one movement. Id say that is a very hard meneuver. Did u even watch the video? Id say its pretty raw.

arcadeace
11-27-2005, 03:14 PM
Its a good video danjama. I agree with much of the above observations and especially that they were maneuvering with normal ability. Its a good example exposing a huge difference compared to our simulated forces. I just wish people could take some of it to heart and not claim to be such experts from playing this sim. It really is a world of difference.

CaptAce
11-27-2005, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Yambretta:
/me wonders if the pilot got out after popping the canopy.

somehow I suspect not judging by the hits in that area afterwards

I think he jumped.. I'm pretty sure that was him getting out at 1:08. After that it cut to the p-51 shooting the 190 while it was in a uncontrolled dive, suggesting the pilot had bugged out.

Sharpe26
11-27-2005, 03:20 PM
All I'm seeing is a barrel roll followed by a dive but what the 190 pilot does when he pulls in to the dive....

Sure as hell isn't a negative G what he's doing.

TheGozr
11-27-2005, 03:29 PM
The day you will pull some hard monouvers in a real 1500+ HP's aircraft you will anderstand many things. or any aircraft i would say.
probably 99 % of you all will feel no adecuate at first and maybe with hard training.

Turkesh_Blend
11-27-2005, 03:47 PM
I feel bad for that 190 pilot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Looked like he had some flying skill though.

RocketDog
11-27-2005, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
As for fighters going in behind bombers - they didn`t. Read the books, watch the docus, every fighter pilot would avoid going behind any bomber with guns.

Not so sure on that one. Somebody once posted a histogram from an American bomber unit of the number of attacks made from different aspects and the great majority were from 5 - 7 o'clock. The difference, I suspect, is that IRL they wouldn't crawl up behind the bombers as so many of us sim pilots try. They would take time to build an attack and only go in with a very high closing speed.

Cheers,

RocketDog.

PS - this is excepting the Sturmbock units of course. They really did try the 6 o'clock crawl in armoured Fw-190s. I read one account in which a Sturmbock pilot describes the defensive fire as being so intense that it was like looking up when you are standing under a shower.

Kuna15
11-27-2005, 03:57 PM
Nice video, I saw it before tho. Almost like real FB action online regarding manouvres which isn't so common scene on most guncam clips.

Majority of guncam shots are almost turkey shots in FB.

danjama
11-27-2005, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Sharpe26:
All I'm seeing is a barrel roll followed by a dive but what the 190 pilot does when he pulls in to the dive....

Sure as hell isn't a negative G what he's doing.

If u watch again, the third clip (10 or so seconds in?) is the 190 doing a divin fast roll, pullin out and turnin hard left!

DmdSeeker
11-27-2005, 04:02 PM
"Why didn't he use his superior roll?"

The film is of Robert Johnsen; a Jug driver; so may be his rate of roll wasn't that superior.

Clan_Graham
11-27-2005, 04:03 PM
November 24th, 1944....I'm surprized there were still any 190's left to shoot at.

danjama
11-27-2005, 04:04 PM
It's not Robert Johnson, its A Johnson but not robert. And i dont know what u guys are seeing but he seems to roll pretty fast to me!

danjama
11-27-2005, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by Clan_Graham:
November 24th, 1944....I'm surprized there were still any 190's left to shoot at.

There woulda been mostly Dora's but at that time their was still quite alot of fighter sweeps going on, interdictions etc. January was when most of the German planes stopped comin up (to my knowledge)!

zlin
11-27-2005, 04:06 PM
Hello http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

There you go http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif enjoy

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/7661099033/p/1

tomtheyak
11-27-2005, 05:36 PM
You actually see some wild manoeuvering there - the classic Focke-Wulf flick from lefthand to righthand turn in a derry style is a text book escape-from-spit 190 move - and as for roll rate, notice that he(?) takes a hit early on in the wings; if the clips are shown in chronological order (which seems appropriate) then maybe his roll rate has suffered...?

As for surprise.. well, who knows? Is this consistently the same FW being targeted, or various members of the same unit? (Which then opens up the first part of my arguement to equivocation)

Speed of film is highly ambiguous - camera motor speed, playback motor speed and as people have pointed out, the habit of slowing playback to better acertain results can lead to a large margin of error.

Considering some of the bunts and sideslips that the FW pulls off and also the consistent fact that the attacker seems to be forced to overshoot in a number of occasions that FW pilot had some idea how to handle his a/c.

Interesting that the attacker has only one gun charged with tracer; pretty unusual and perhaps misleading... arent most of his shots wide to the left...?

Just food for thought, but definitely a good little find and makes me feel better bout my gunnery skills!

danjama
11-27-2005, 05:50 PM
All excellent points Tom!

Jungmann
11-27-2005, 06:17 PM
S! Danjama

One of the best clips of its kind I've seen. And I agree with the posters that say the FW is doing its best to evade, constantly forcing the Jug pilot to overshoot.

I'm pretty sure its the same target, and it takes the Jug nine passes to finish him off. This is how I see it--

1. A long Hail-mary shot as the FW crosses him at high speed
2. A high deflection shot at medium range, but visible hits. The FW outturning the Jug. Medium altitude, maybe 5000 feet
3. FW feinting right, leveling, hauling into a hard left turn, pulling high Gs, up to a stall, trying to turn inside the Jug, then flips inverted and s-turns for the deck, rolling upright again. Jug won't follow, maybe afraid of being too low, maybe assuming he'd finished the FW off.
4. Jug pulling out of dive at 1000 feet, having lost the FW.
5. Jug spots him in vertical climb, perhaps a snap shot, but can't follow him.
6. Jug reacquires FW and clses to 100 feet, solid hits, but target rolls right and Jug overshoots again.
7. Jug closes in again. Solid hits on fusaelage. FW may be damaged by now, or pilot wounded.
8. FW wallowing, shallow banks left and right. Jug pumping rounds into him. Pilot knows he's latched, pops canopy.
9. Jug follows FW down in dive, more solid hits. My guess--pilot jumped between 8 and 9.

But a great clip. Yes, our game doesn't model G-forces and stick forces, that slow down maneuvers--all we get is black out. But we get unrealistic AI evasion, which I guess makes up for the fact the game can't simulate Gs.

Anybody else see it that way?

Cheers,

danjama
11-27-2005, 06:28 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

tomtheyak
11-27-2005, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by danjama:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

Count me in http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

tigertalon
11-27-2005, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
[For me it`s one of the saddest scenes to watch, what must be going on in that bomber.

Agreed... However, what would you do if there was a city below, which this bomber intends to bomb? That's sad as well...

polak5
11-27-2005, 11:33 PM
seems to me like hes flapin his rudder around trying to evade in some of his maneuvers

fighter_966
11-28-2005, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by polak5:
seems to me like hes flapin his rudder around trying to evade in some of his maneuvers
Pilot tried to jump just before film ends ,that big piece is canopy.. and attacker continnues
shooting ....... !

fighter_966
11-28-2005, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by fighter_966:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by polak5:
seems to me like hes flapin his rudder around trying to evade in some of his maneuvers
Pilot tried to jump just before film ends ,that big piece is canopy.. and attacker continnues
shooting ....... ! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks danjama btw Johnnie Johnson flew Spitfire... but thats a Mustang in a film..or..

rnzoli
11-28-2005, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by danjama:
this really cool P51 VS FW190 dogfight clip.
A little OT.

There is nothing cool about people getting killed in front of your eyes.

I find the virtual IL2 movies cool, but not the real guncam films.

Your clips are interesting and very valuable from a historical, aviation and combat tactics point of view, but certainly not 'cool' or 'funny' or 'entertaining'.

PS. We don't have to agree on this.

Xiolablu3
11-28-2005, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:

. There`s a famous guncam of a Jerry fighter cruelling killing a B17 from the rear. He stays behind that B17 forever, chopping it up. Now because of this footage many reckon this means you could do this normally...

But No. Look carefully, and it`s obvious that previously the rear gunners (belly and rear) had been already incapacitated. The Jerry pilot knew this and knew he could come in fast and keep shooting. For me it`s one of the saddest scenes to watch, what must be going on in that bomber.


What about the poor FW190 pilot in that plane? He pops his canopy, ovbvioulsy admitting defeat and he is gonna try and crash land, however the US pilot 'cruelly' keeps hammering away at this sitting duck of a plane? He is probably too low to bail and so he thinks he will pop the canopy and try and crash land, but nope.

It seems like you are saying that the Jerry pilot is cruel for trying to finish the B17, yet in Danjamas clip, the US pilot is doing exactly the same.

The German pilot was probably thinking of the hell which had been created on the ground for his coutrymen by that B17. Where they thinking of the 'cruelty' of the bombs dropping on women and children when they dropped? I somehow doubt it.

I'm not having a go at you, I just thought that you would realise, war is hell, for both sides. Its no MORE hell because its a Allied bomber being hit than a German FW190.

Xiolablu3
11-28-2005, 03:25 AM
Originally posted by fighter_966:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fighter_966:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by polak5:
seems to me like hes flapin his rudder around trying to evade in some of his maneuvers
Pilot tried to jump just before film ends ,that big piece is canopy.. and attacker continnues
shooting ....... ! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks danjama btw Johnnie Johnson flew Spitfire... but thats a Mustang in a film..or.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was sure some of those shots were cannon hits, look at the size of the tracer, that looks bigger than 50 cal fire, and travels much slower.

At first, I thought the plane being attacked was a P51 and it was being fired at by a single Mk108 cannon. On around 45 seconds the plane being attacked looks similar to a P51D. (Further looking reveals it is clearly a FW190)

Then, after reading the intro again and realising it was an allied plane attacking, I thought it was a P38 with a single Hispano.

But Danj says its a P51? Maybe its the blurriness of the film which is playing tricks, but those shots sure look like cannon fire.

But Its not Jonnie Johnson, his initials are D. W. Johnson.

EDIT: Further googling reveals DW Johnson did indded fly P51s in the 339th fighter group. It must be a trick of the tracer rounds which makes them look much bigger on that old film.

SeaFireLIV
11-28-2005, 05:30 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

What about the poor FW190 pilot in that plane? He pops his canopy, ovbvioulsy admitting defeat and he is gonna try and crash land, however the US pilot 'cruelly' keeps hammering away at this sitting duck of a plane? He is probably too low to bail and so he thinks he will pop the canopy and try and crash land, but nope.

It seems like you are saying that the Jerry pilot is cruel for trying to finish the B17, yet in Danjamas clip, the US pilot is doing exactly the same.

The German pilot was probably thinking of the hell which had been created on the ground for his coutrymen by that B17. Where they thinking of the 'cruelty' of the bombs dropping on women and children when they dropped? I somehow doubt it.

I'm not having a go at you, I just thought that you would realise, war is hell, for both sides. Its no MORE hell because its a Allied bomber being hit than a German FW190.

Ok, let`s start with the US fighter shooting on while the Jerri`s trying to jump:

1. The pilot is shooting in the heat of the action. He`s being trying for ages to shoot down this 190 - Suddenly the pilot decides to jump. It`s hard to suddenly stop shooting when your adrenalin running. 2 or 3 times I`ve accidentally killed a virtually pilot (in 109s and 190s) when they`ve suddenly jumped, but I`m stilled in `kill` mode and by the time I`ve taken my finger off the trigger the pilot is dead.

One guy got really angry at me for this and I had to try and explain that I didn`t mean to actually kill a bailer.

2. No one seems to have considered that the pilot might NOT have realised that the pilot had bailed. Again, one gets fixated on the aircraft. hasn`t anyone noticed that after the apparent bail of the German pilot(although this is still disputed), the US pilot continually keeps shooting at the now diving plane.

Why? If the pilot knew he`d bailed why is he still shooting the plane? It makes no sense... Unless one of 2 things.

1. The German pilot is still in there.
2. The US pilot didn`t realise that the other guy has jumped.

I don`t believe the pilot was intentionally shooting at the bailer at all.

As for the fact that the B17 was bombing cities, well, it sounds cruel, but the 3rd reich quite happily bombed England continuously and would no doubt have done the same to the US if they could have. Had they not started on the Allies with unprovoked aggression, then the Allies would not need to return with provoked aggression.

I`m sorry for all who have died in this and of course war it is terrible on BOTH sides, but you can`t say `look how bad it was for them`, when they would have destroyed England (through continuous bombing) and everyone else and not thought twice about it. Hitler wanted Total war and he got it.

You reap what you sow.

neural_dream
11-28-2005, 05:42 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
He is probably too low to bail and so he thinks he will pop the canopy and try and crash land, but nope.
Probably, but not with certainty, since popping the canopy could be a zero-cost trick. If we could pop the canopy without bailing out in IL-2 I would do it very often http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.
Also depends over what ground they were and who the German was. If the American thought the German was an ace and they were over German territory (most probably) of course he had to kill him, for the very well-known reasons repeated over and over in this forum http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

BSS_CUDA
11-28-2005, 07:31 AM
pure propaganda!!!! everyone knows you cant shoot down a 190 with 50's http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Genie-
11-28-2005, 08:28 AM
about R/L (guncamera) and IL2 maneuvering

"Are we playing on Fast Forward"

http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_top...=144;t=001784#000002 (http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=144;t=001784#000002 )

danjama
11-28-2005, 02:05 PM
"What about the poor FW190 pilot in that plane? He pops his canopy, ovbvioulsy admitting defeat and he is gonna try and crash land, however the US pilot 'cruelly' keeps hammering away at this sitting duck of a plane? He is probably too low to bail and so he thinks he will pop the canopy and try and crash land, but nope."

You will notice the 190 is in a diving state in the following clip so i am guessig the pilot bailed or has been shot dead.

I do not think Cool was an inappropriate word, definately entertaining or funny would be in fact very wrong to use, but i think the clip is cool.

I found the yawing movements of the 190 very fascinating, because whenever i read about it being done in pilots books, its very hard to picture a real plane doing it, this cleared that up a little in my mind.

dugong
11-28-2005, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by WTE_Ibis:
That's a great clip danjama. Why doesn't the FW pilot use his superior roll I wonder.
That's one thing I've noticed with every dogfight clip I 've seen, the attacked plane doesn't seem to take wild evasive action,it almost seems leasurely.
Certainly not as in the game and as I have said on other threads the clips on fighters attacking bombers the fighters invariably attack from the six o'clock position again not in this game or you are dead.
Good find m8, thanks for posting.
Cheera, Ibis.

.

I think it boils down to situation awareness. In a sim it is harder to match the targets moves, so there tends to be an over-reaction. Things get twitchy. In reality it is easier to match the targets manuevering and it seems less "twitchy." That is my guess. The blackout theory seems feasable too.

As for the German pilot, I hope he got out all right. He took a serious licking. He shoulda' mapped his flaps to a slider!

TAW_Oilburner
11-28-2005, 09:26 PM
Maybe he WAS trying to kill him.

Respect these men for what they went through, respect the skill, the bravery, and the conviction it took to do what the did. However, please do not judge them unless you've walked in their shoes. I think it's a mistake I often see in these forums when people try to "civilize" warfare. War is about killing, it's as simple and un-romantic as that.

BoCfuss
11-28-2005, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by TAW_Oilburner:
Maybe he WAS trying to kill him.

Respect these men for what they went through, respect the skill, the bravery, and the conviction it took to do what the did. However, please do not judge them unless you've walked in their shoes. I think it's a mistake I often see in these forums when people try to "civilize" warfare. War is about killing, it's as simple and un-romantic as that.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

That about sums it up.

Enforcer572005
11-28-2005, 10:57 PM
you guys got better eyes than I do....looks like he's pulling every move in the book to get away, high G stuff, yawing etc.
I never even saw the guy bail.....so i guess the 51 driver may not have either.

And I think it's cool to......i love those gun cam reels. I think military history in general is pretty cool....sad alot, but cool alot to.

Xnomad
11-29-2005, 04:11 AM
My goodness some of you guys really don't have a clue!

Don't you know that when the pilot pulls the trigger it also turns on the gun cam?

You often see allied guncams shooting at an empty pilot-less plane because they need to record the plane's destruction to be awarded the kill.

I'm not saying that the pilot is in or out of the plane at the end of this footage however, I thought I would just clear that up for the guys who don't know that shooting empty planes was quite common.

Unknown_Target
11-29-2005, 05:35 AM
I agree with Xnomad and Oilburner, however, just a note: when the pilot stopped maneuvering at the end and popped the canopy, you'll notice that you don't see any more tracer fire coming from the pursuing aircraft, which means he wasn't shooting and the guncam was just automatically rolling for a few more seconds. Or, he was still shooting, but was missing and eventually stopped (as evidenced by the fact that the guncam was pointing down and quite far away from the enemy plane).

Lastly, Xnomad is right about the pilots shooting at unoccupied aircraft to document their kills - just recently I read a story about Chuck Yeager and how, when he watched an enemy plane spiral into the ground, he followed it down and flipped his guncam on to document the crash and thus confirm his "kill".

SeaFireLIV
11-29-2005, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by Xnomad:

You often see allied guncams shooting at an empty pilot-less plane because they need to record the plane's destruction to be awarded the kill.

.

Ah. Didn`t know that bit. I stand corrected. So he may have known that the pilot had jumped after all - or he still could`ve been fixated on the plane because he hadn`t seen the pilot jump.

So my points are still relevent.

Xiolablu3
11-29-2005, 12:53 PM
Good point, the pilot could habe bailed off camera.

But I think the plane is too low for himto bail, looking at the shots before, which is why I assumed he would try and crashland.

I wasnt trying to stir up an argument Seafire, I just thought the point about the b17 clip that you made was appliable to many Guncam clips from both sides. I find some of the clips very, very sad, whichever side the victim is on, thats all.

Maybe the German pilot saw the B17 crew bail off camera too? There is sure not much happeneing in that B17 when the 110 is hammering it. But we will never know, for either of the clips.

There is obviously a part missing just after the canopy pops and before the p51 starts shooting again.

danjama
11-29-2005, 03:37 PM
Also the 190 is or seems to be in a dive (crashing) in the last shot suggesting it is PILOTLESS, meaning the pilot bailed and the 51 pilot is just gettin his confirmation shot.

Xiolablu3
11-29-2005, 05:39 PM
Ahhh Danj has it! , he may have had another pilot fire a shot at the plane hoping to STEAL THE KILL! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Thats why he fired afterwards, to 'steal it back' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


I see FB/PF is correct in its modelling of kills as it happened in WW2 as well! Be sure! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Hawgdog
11-29-2005, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by RocketDog:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
As for fighters going in behind bombers - they didn`t. Read the books, watch the docus, every fighter pilot would avoid going behind any bomber with guns.

Not so sure on that one. Somebody once posted a histogram from an American bomber unit of the number of attacks made from different aspects and the great majority were from 5 - 7 o'clock. The difference, I suspect, is that IRL they wouldn't crawl up behind the bombers as so many of us sim pilots try. They would take time to build an attack and only go in with a very high closing speed.

Cheers,

RocketDog.

PS - this is excepting the Sturmbock units of course. They really did try the 6 o'clock crawl in armoured Fw-190s. I read one account in which a Sturmbock pilot describes the defensive fire as being so intense that it was like looking up when you are standing under a shower. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read an account where the rear gunner just stared into the contrails as thats where the 190's would come in- hiding in the vapor plumes-

Jetbuff
11-29-2005, 11:35 PM
I think we're also missing some inertia - even acrobatic airshow display planes will display some reluctance to transition from one maneuver to the next - not so in any flightsim I've flown.

Sharpe26
11-30-2005, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
I think we're also missing some inertia - even acrobatic airshow display planes will display some reluctance to transition from one maneuver to the next - not so in any flightsim I've flown.

that's probably one of the things that's hard to program.

IVJG51_Swine
11-30-2005, 08:03 AM
Tough 190 there. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif