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XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 06:24 PM
Can someone please tell me why it's been neutered?

It stalls really easily now,even in a gentle turn.The La5FN flight model seems to have been replaced with the La5 fron V1.0



Am I the only one to notice this?

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 06:24 PM
Can someone please tell me why it's been neutered?

It stalls really easily now,even in a gentle turn.The La5FN flight model seems to have been replaced with the La5 fron V1.0



Am I the only one to notice this?

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 06:27 PM
Apparently, from all the talk that's been bandied around here, the La-5FN and variants as modeled in the original Il-2 FB were a bit too good. Maybe this new FM more accurately reflects the difficulties of the plane.

***************************************

"Oh no, the V-1 Doodlebug is heading for our bunghole!" ---David

"...I possess the wings of faith. Though heavy on my shoulder (no measurement can prove their weight), still a burden are they not to me. I am the challenger of gravity." ---Emperor

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 06:35 PM
La 5FN is now very bad - more than it should be. It is like brick. Slots have no effect at all for flight characteristics!
I was looking forward for patch... Now it seems i will w8 for next one /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
La5FN was lighter than La5 or La5F. La 7 was lighter than La5FN. Why is La5FN more maneuverable than La7? And why they stalls so easily? This plane has good stall characteristics /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
May be too much LW betatesters? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

3 International Avia Polk
***** 3.IAP_CHARLIE *****

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 06:56 PM
Snootles wrote:


Apparently, from all the talk that's been bandied
around here, the La-5FN and variants as modeled in
the original Il-2 FB were a bit too good. Maybe this new FM more accurately reflects the
difficulties of the plane.


-----------------------------------------------------------

I agree about the feeling that IL-2's early La5FN was somewhat uber-to the extent that it was feared and subsequently banned by many servers(the same ones who banned the I-16).

But,take into account that this aircraft was one that helped turn the tide in the Eastern Front war and was feared and respected by Luftwaffe pilots.

Sadly,the 1.1b version does not appear to be an accurate representation of the La-5FN I have read about.



I don't know why it's even been changed-a well flown Bf109(same era)was more than a match for it on hyperlobby anyway.


I haven't dared to try the La7 yet...

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 07:05 PM
I've been flying the Lavochkins since just after IL2 was released (My main ride), and I have no problems with the changes, actually, the A/C has some character now.

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<center><font><font size=1 ><font color=000000>Visit RatFinks Screaming Pile of Sin and Confusion</font></font size> (http://www.goobage.com/forum.php)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 07:23 PM
Yes, it is a result of constant Luftwhining on this forum.
I expect this to happen to all Russian planes.

Notice also horrible La-5FN roll rate at high speeds - something German test pilot H.W.Lerche wrote about after testing damaged La-5FN at Rechlin Test Center:
"Aileron effectiveness is outstanding. At Va 450km/h (280mph) a roll rate takes barely 4 sec; at Va 600km/h (375 mph)" aileron forces become high but can be assisted by rapid rudder movement."

Luftwhiners are killing all Russian planes, not just La-5FN.
Luftwhiners don't care about real life planes performance..


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 07:39 PM
Yes the luftwhiners must have infutrated the patch process thats why the 109 was toned down and the P39 is soo good/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I really hate conspiracy whiners!

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 07:44 PM
Snootles wrote:
- Apparently, from all the talk that's been bandied
- around here, the La-5FN and variants as modeled in
- the original Il-2 FB were a bit too good. Maybe
- this new FM more accurately reflects the
- difficulties of the plane.
-
- ***************************************
-
- "Oh no, the V-1 Doodlebug is heading for our
- bunghole!" ---David
-
- "...I possess the wings of faith. Though heavy on
- my shoulder (no measurement can prove their weight),
- still a burden are they not to me. I am the
- challenger of gravity." ---Emperor


Sigh!
Learn to fly it boy. Either that or switch to noob settings.
IMO it feels great. Not an UFO annymore. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 07:47 PM
Anybody who thought the later LAs had properly rendered performance prior to the patch should note the fact that most online servers were an all-VVS joke of LAs and hurricanes because nothing else was remotely competative.

With the new patch, the LAs gain some of the vices that afflict all other planes and yet retain enough of their superiority to still reflect the improving quality of Russian aviation over their enemies' from the mid- to late-war.

I think patch is superb and I would like to convey my regards to the development team who did such a great job.

Cheers!


Yours in smugness,

Fafnir_6

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 07:52 PM
Well,

La's were too nimble. Even Yak-3 fell victim to Lavochka easily.

Dont forget the fact that La's were wiped out many times by LW 190's and 109's.

Vas strasni stroj u vecnost leti,
Od vecnog zova srca zebu,
Krilo uz krilo, ruka uz ruku,
Na surovom ratnom nebu.

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 08:08 PM
"Yes, it is a result of constant Luftwhining on this forum.
I expect this to happen to all Russian planes.

Notice also horrible La-5FN roll rate at high speeds - something German test pilot H.W.Lerche wrote about after testing damaged La-5FN at Rechlin Test Center:
"Aileron effectiveness is outstanding. At Va 450km/h (280mph) a roll rate takes barely 4 sec; at Va 600km/h (375 mph)" aileron forces become high but can be assisted by rapid rudder movement."

Luftwhiners are killing all Russian planes, not just La-5FN.
Luftwhiners don't care about real life planes performance..

"


Or maybe Maddox made it adhere to a few actual laws of fluid dynamics.

.

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 08:11 PM
HyperX,
I don't really think Snootles deserved your blast-his reply was considered and useful,suggesting that the FM was possibly accurate.

And he didn't say he flew the Lavochkin.

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 08:14 PM
La-5FN was superior to contemporary Fw190 in all respects other then roll rate.
Flying it is not a problem for me, not before nor after the patch.
It is just bunch of BS perpetrated by Luftwhiners artificially inflating flight characteristics if LW planes instead of learning to fly them is annoying. Oleg is caving to the their pressure time after time.

When figure out that I cannot stall/spin P-39 in FB - I complain, I stop flying it, I want it to perform the way it did during the war, not better. For Luftwhiners it is not an issue, they just want an easy opponents to deal with, not the "historical performance" of their planes. No Luftwhiners will ever complain about overmodeled Fw190 series climb or speed (or roll for this meter). Or about overmodeled Bf109 high-speed roll. And this is mixed together with really spoiled attitude toward pilots from the other side, trying to belittle them for flying supposedly "n00b" planes.

Well, surprise - now LW pilots are flying n00b planes! Enjoy!


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 08:18 PM
not only la-5fn is decrease

g10 too,it climb inferior to g2

and fly against g6 and a4,a5 than has you eastfront,they have fly until end 44 east

mk108 was too rare use


dora need more skill as la-7

with la-7 have not many problem to win,with dora more

and why has la-7 the best initialclimb 28m/sec

g10 21m/sec

that was too luftwhinners?



Message Edited on 08/13/0310:46PM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 08:32 PM
what are u talking about i only tryed the la7s so far but they dont stall.

La is still über.
And Luftwhiners dont complaining and also dont want have easy targets.

You Bogun are who want easy targets i bet u enjoy hunting worser perform FW190 and enjoy outclimp and out turn em.
see how the FW190 loose their energy with each turn and then hunting em. The easy targets.
So Stop talking BS Bogun.
And YES may u dont realise it or its hard for u
but u are the guy in the noob plane.

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 08:42 PM
Yhea, blame it on the Luftwhiners- here's my complaint list:


BF-109 too simple to get out of a spin
BF-109 overheats too fast
FW-190 incorrect view over panel

This makes me a Luftwhiner right?

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 08:44 PM
pipgig wrote:
- what are u talking about i only tryed the la7s so
- far but they dont stall.
-
- La is still über.
- And Luftwhiners dont complaining and also dont want
- have easy targets.
-
- You Bogun are who want easy targets i bet u enjoy
- hunting worser perform FW190 and enjoy outclimp and
- out turn em.
- see how the FW190 loose their energy with each turn
- and then hunting em. The easy targets.
- So Stop talking BS Bogun.
- And YES may u dont realise it or its hard for u
- but u are the guy in the noob plane.

Again LW BS, BS, BS.....

So far I am flying I-153 missions against others I-153, Brewsters and Bf109E and F in IronSkies.

Last mission we took was 2 VVS vs 10 LW guys. As I recall, ratio was somewhat different during the War, am I correct? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
We did not complain, we flu the mission.

My favorite plane so far - Yak-1 in IronSkies and Fw-190A-5 off-line.

So fly your n00b 190 and enjoy!


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 08:48 PM
Bogun u cant even take off with the noob 190/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 08:55 PM
you wish... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 09:00 PM
I don't exclusively fly VVS or Luft. I fly every single plane in the game, based on what mood I'm in. And now that I've spent a little more time with the radial-engine La's, I think the new FM's reflect their behavior a bit more accurately. I don't think they're terrible at all. And it kinda seems like the forward visibility has been tuned down a bit too...a good thing, that.

Or then again, maybe it's those evil and insidious Luftwhiners out to get us! MUHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAHH!!!!!!

***************************************

"Oh no, the V-1 Doodlebug is heading for our bunghole!" ---David

"...I possess the wings of faith. Though heavy on my shoulder (no measurement can prove their weight), still a burden are they not to me. I am the challenger of gravity." ---Emperor

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 09:02 PM
Now for my other complaints:

P-47 still dosent roll correctly, faster!
I-16 turning qualities toned down a bit too much
P-39 seems too simple to de-spin, acceleration also seems a bit low.

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 09:35 PM
I cannot forget an example in Robert Shaw book about the mock dogfight between Johnny Johnson in his P-47 vs Spitfire. One of the advantages Johnson exploited was superior roll rate of P-47. It is very hard to imagine this being possible in FB as it exist right now.

AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 09:40 PM
Did you foget Bogun that the 109s all got castrated in the patch? I love people that make broad generalisations over a few little observations. Someone should lock this thread, theere is no useful information at all in here, just generalized whines.

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 11:25 PM
It stalls easy?Oh don't make me laugh.Its still a noobe plane,tho the guns might be a bit weak.

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 11:30 PM
Bogun wrote:
- La-5FN was superior to contemporary Fw190 in all
- respects other then roll rate.
- Flying it is not a problem for me, not before nor
- after the patch.
- It is just bunch of BS perpetrated by Luftwhiners
- artificially inflating flight characteristics if LW
- planes instead of learning to fly them is annoying.
- Oleg is caving to the their pressure time after
- time.
-
- When figure out that I cannot stall/spin P-39 in FB
- - I complain, I stop flying it, I want it to perform
- the way it did during the war, not better. For
- Luftwhiners it is not an issue, they just want an
- easy opponents to deal with, not the "historical
- performance" of their planes. No Luftwhiners will
- ever complain about overmodeled Fw190 series climb
- or speed (or roll for this meter). Or about
- overmodeled Bf109 high-speed roll. And this is mixed
- together with really spoiled attitude toward pilots
- from the other side, trying to belittle them for
- flying supposedly "n00b" planes.
-
- Well, surprise - now LW pilots are flying n00b
- planes! Enjoy!
-
-
-
- AKA_Bogun
-
----------------
- The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction
- has to make sense.
-
-- Tom Clancy
-
----------------
- Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into
- Paris."
- Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore
- grey, you wore blue."
- Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the
- Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."
-
-- Casablanca, 1942
-


I think the lag5fn isnt the only plane that needed toning down hows about lag7, still takes to much damage, hardly stalls,spins or bleeds e at all i can see that the so called noob 190 is gonna cause so much trouble for a plane that outperforms it in just about every aspect except roll. All though the 190's have been improved their still gonna get walked on by yaks and lags so what are you complaining about, all luftwaffe fans want are their aircraft modelled correctly so they can be flown effectively using proper tactics and not just a turkey shoot for vvs planes that dont stall, spin, blled e as they should etc.

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 11:30 PM
You n00bs got a choice.Learn to fly on more realistic FM,disable realistc flying or come back to v1.0.

Oh mommy my La5FN stalls now buaaaah!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"degustibus non disputandum"

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 11:32 PM
I just flew 4 missions in La-5f and La-5fn.
In both missions - lost a wing at IAS ranging from 630km/h to 650km/h. I am not even going to comment this.

Bogun, I think you are familiar with general tendencies on this forum. You won't achieve anything here.
The popular logic here is very simple:

Russian technology = generally poor. Only some designs are relatively "successful", but these are only badly copied western designs.
It doesn't matter what russian engineers are saying.
They are incompetent brainwashed communist liars "by default". (the same applies to the majority of russian scientists, historians, or military.
Only european or american data can be trusted.

This is very sad, but we can't change anything here.
So, Bogun, don't waste your time in debates here. You won't convince anyone. Others already tried...


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 11:35 PM
pipgig wrote:
- what are u talking about i only tryed the la7s so
- far but they dont stall.
-
- La is still über.
- And Luftwhiners dont complaining and also dont want
- have easy targets.
-
- You Bogun are who want easy targets i bet u enjoy
- hunting worser perform FW190 and enjoy outclimp and
- out turn em.
- see how the FW190 loose their energy with each turn
- and then hunting em. The easy targets.
- So Stop talking BS Bogun.
- And YES may u dont realise it or its hard for u
- but u are the guy in the noob plane.
-
-


No no sir...
Lftwhinners become luftwinners becouse they read book and there is written - German were biggest aces. Than they jump to LW plane and want to win, but... Bad tactics, lack of knowledges etc leads to constant loose. Than they complain.

Now their complaining leads to undermodelling VVS planes. Absurud.
Look at Betatesters - only few of them are in VVS squads. What should we wait? I am surprised this result surprised me...

3 International Avia Polk
***** 3.IAP_CHARLIE *****

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 11:43 PM
Oh please...first it's "Oleg is biased against the 'Waffe", next it's "Oleg is giving major concessions to the 'Waffewhiner conspiracy".

What's next, the Illuminati?

***************************************

"Oh no, the V-1 Doodlebug is heading for our bunghole!" ---David

"...I possess the wings of faith. Though heavy on my shoulder (no measurement can prove their weight), still a burden are they not to me. I am the challenger of gravity." ---Emperor

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 11:51 PM
I stand corrected Zikky./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif .
It was ment for the original poster.Clicked on the wrong reply button.
Must learn to preview before i launch em. Sorry Snootles.

Zikky wrote:
- HyperX,
- I don't really think Snootles deserved your
- blast-his reply was considered and useful,suggesting
- that the FM was possibly accurate.
-
- And he didn't say he flew the Lavochkin.
-
-

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 11:57 PM
Blame Stalin.He purged most of the extra-smart people before the war.

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 12:14 AM
The 190 does just what a heavy plane with big wings and control surfaces should do. It dive like a rock and zooms great and turns well at high speeds. The Las are still great planes and if you would actually play around with them you should see they are still much easier to fly and more dangerous than any german plane. I know its a newsflash, but planes built in russia did stall too. You guys were so babied with planes that didn't stall you never learned how to fly, and I will say the same thing to anyone whining about the 109s now. There is no denying that the 190 was not right before, Yak3s shouldnt be able to keep up in a dive with one, and now they dont...LAs should break up before the 190s do i a dive too. 109s shouldnt have better high speed handling than a 190 and now they dont. Just go and learn to fly the frickin planes, I learned to fly the 190s how they were and probably would have smoked your La7 totting a$$, so now maybe you should go learn to fly one.


"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--



"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--



"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 01:25 AM
If one mention Fw190 "turns well at high speeds" it should immediately disqualify his from the list of the people who's opinion should be considered in the meter of FM. But almost all else you said is correct. It is just your nasty attitude - leaking through the seems. La family of planes, after wing slats were installed was not known for spinning or easily stalling. If it does now in the game it is probably a mistake, anyway something we will learn to leave with. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Unlike you flying your newfound n00b Uberwuerger! Gosh, I live to be able to stick it to Luftwaffer's face! n00b Uberwuerger! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Don't worry, I also learn to fly 190 before, so it is not going to be much harder to kick you butt on HL now. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 01:31 AM
Ive flown the 190 since IL2 have been able to easily hold my own. I had never whined about its FM, only the cement elevators at speeds. The 190 was known for haveing much better high speed handling than the 109, in original FB it was the complete opposite, and now this has been fixed. And about its newbishness, it still is nowhere near as easy for newbs as a La or a Yak.


"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 01:45 AM
Umm..who's the one with the "nasty attitude", Bogun?

***************************************

"Oh no, the V-1 Doodlebug is heading for our bunghole!" ---David

"...I possess the wings of faith. Though heavy on my shoulder (no measurement can prove their weight), still a burden are they not to me. I am the challenger of gravity." ---Emperor

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 01:46 AM
lbhskier37 wrote:
- Ive flown the 190 since IL2 have been able to easily
- hold my own. I had never whined about its FM, only
- the cement elevators at speeds. The 190 was known
- for haveing much better high speed handling than the
- 109, in original FB it was the complete opposite,
- and now this has been fixed. And about its
- newbishness, it still is nowhere near as easy for
- newbs as a La or a Yak.



All right, every word is correct. I was not happy with Fw190 high speed roll either. It was 109 controls being referred as being set in concrete at high speed, not Fw190. It felt weird, like their FM being misapplied, reversed before. I do welcome the change. Oleg and his company is getting were it is becoming more and more accurate.
Now please, listen - La-5FN and La-7 had very decent roll rates - Lerche's tests even of crippled La-5FN confirmed that - it is totally missing now. La dive speed could not much Fw190, but it was considerably better then 650 km/h. La starting from 5F did not stall and spin easily. Author of the first post just listed his observations of the changes - and he is right. There are many things still wrong with FM, incorrect climb rates for many planes I flu with new 1.1b patch come to mind first. Hope it will be adjusted.


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942


Message Edited on 08/13/03 08:47PM by Bogun

Message Edited on 08/13/0308:48PM by Bogun

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 01:50 AM
What alt were you at when you broke up at 650k/ph, because that is IAS and your TAS could be significantly higher.


"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 03:37 AM
Gee, you mean your going to have to actually start thinking your way through a fight, instead of hauling back on the stick./i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 08:49 AM
It should depend on IAS when a plane breaks in a dive.

From well-known FW190 test: "The elevators proved to be heavy at all speeds and particularly so above 350mph (563km/h) when they become heavy enough to impose a tactical restriction on the fighter as regards pull-out from low-level dives."

I don't mind La's stalls but its roll rate seems too low for me.

312_Lazy
312. (Czechoslovak) Sq. RAF
http://312.jinak.cz

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 09:01 AM
Are you serious. i just flew the thing against all the ace's in the game. Offline and i had them set on ace. and i Killed them all. the only one that shot me down was the the ace that flys the La7. He got a lucky shot in one ping and my wing fell off.


So i did a refly and did him in also. The only Ace i didn't fly against was the me262 ace. I just thought that woudld be just a waste of time since the nutuered the me262.


LOL /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif The La5FN hold so much e it zooms better than the p47.



Zikky wrote:
- Can someone please tell me why it's been neutered?
-
- It stalls really easily now,even in a gentle
- turn.The La5FN flight model seems to have been
- replaced with the La5 fron V1.0
-
-
-
-
- Am I the only one to notice this?
-
-
-
-
-

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 09:02 AM
I can't believe my eyes... VVS-whining at last!

Time to get one's own back, "Learn to fly, eh?" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

<hr width="400">Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and have their
shoes!
http://members.rogers.com/teemaz/sig.jpg (http://www.jagdgeschwader1.com)

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 09:38 AM
Lazy_312 wrote:
- From well-known FW190 test: "The elevators proved to
- be heavy at all speeds and particularly so above
- 350mph (563km/h) when they become heavy enough to
- impose a tactical restriction on the fighter as
- regards pull-out from low-level dives."

That's the Eric Brown test. He compares it to the Spitfire which enjoyed superlight elevators. Compared to it, all fighters would have heavy elevators.

Here's another excerpt.

"The Fw190 has a high rate of dive, the initial acceleration being excellent. The maximum speed obtained so far in a dive is 580mph TAS at 16000ft and at this speed the controls although slightly heavier, are still remarkably light."

Also Kurt Tank himself dove the 190 to 955km/hTAS(700km/h IAS) and pulled out of the dive at 7G without problems, no flutter no vibrations.

http://www.iownjoo.com/freeimghost/robban75/Dora-9-3.JPG


'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'

Message Edited on 08/14/0310:05AM by robban75

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 10:20 AM
robban:

Yes, that's Eric Brown.

AFAIK he tested many aircrafts, not only spit and 190. And spitfire isn't mentioned in the test. He may be wrong, I don't know..

What do you think about La's high speed rollrate BTW?

312_Lazy
312. (Czechoslovak) Sq. RAF
http://312.jinak.cz

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 10:30 AM
the la5 is still very good you just cant fly it how you use to, I have killed all planes pretty easy with the exception of the 190s which are impossible to hit and out turn everything

Theres a serious problem with the 190s online movement its better then a f16 i swear with the stupid stick yanking manuever flopping whipping around and seems like your riding on rails while flying the 190 it no plane can hit you.

Overall the game is excellent and has the closest fms to reality with the exception of the mig3 and 190s stick yanking manuever and extreme roll rates.



http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 10:38 AM
Lazy_312 wrote:
- robban:
-
- Yes, that's Eric Brown.
-
- AFAIK he tested many aircrafts, not only spit and
- 190. And spitfire isn't mentioned in the test. He
- may be wrong, I don't know..
-
- What do you think about La's high speed rollrate
- BTW?
-

It's virtually non-existent, I don't know if this is correct, but he Russian birds were built for good low speed manouverability. And even at low speeds the La's rollrate is somewhat slow, the Yaks are better planes IMO. The La-7 was feared because you couldn't outrun it, and it's the only russian plane that can catch the Dora down low, outclimbing it is not possible either, so the only chance is to make swift rolls to avoid being hit! Although they are fast in level flight they can't show their advantages at those speeds. The Yak9U seems to be better than the La-5/7 in this regard, especially in terms of structural strenght during dives.


http://www.iownjoo.com/freeimghost/robban75/Dora-9-3.JPG


'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 10:50 AM
Bogun wrote:
- I cannot forget an example in Robert Shaw book about
- the mock dogfight between Johnny Johnson in his P-47
- vs Spitfire. One of the advantages Johnson exploited
- was superior roll rate of P-47. It is very hard to
- imagine this being possible in FB as it exist right
- now.
-
- AKA_Bogun

Well, but Spit without clipped wings rolled quite slowly...



<center>http://www.kurita.sk/PRIVATE/pictures/sig_il2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 10:52 AM
And so the VVS-whining begins... LMAO


And to the guy insinuating that Oleg and his team finally gave in to the Luftwhiners......


hahaha dude, a big ,!,, to you


"Ich bin ein Würgerwhiner no longer"

Message Edited on 08/14/0310:53AM by JZG_Kaiser

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 11:14 AM
Bogun wrote:
- La-5FN was superior to contemporary Fw190 in all
- respects other then roll rate.

I would add also better dive speed, zoomclimb, firepower, better performance at higher alts, better view, better construction, Kommandogeraet, maybe better high speed handling,

La-5FN was faster at SL, better turner, better sustained climber.

But your partially right, the limit for dive 650kph for La-5FN is really off - that was the limit for Yak-3s in reality /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
the high speed poor elevator and aileron response I don´t know. The Lerche´s report is interesting.
The Fw has a bit overdone high speed handling, at least my feeling.

I would say nobody can say now there is bias only versus VVS or LW of USAF. At the end, this is just V1.1beta.



<center>http://www.kurita.sk/PRIVATE/pictures/sig_il2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 11:19 AM
moreover, I read a book from Helmut Lipfert (+200 victories on East) and he wrote when a Russian plane was on his six, he pushed vertically straight down (in Bf109) - the Russian pursuer was after a while not able to keep its nose pointed straight down and the plane itself went into a shallow dive. Also something about high-speed handling qualities, and that was Bf 109.



<center>http://www.kurita.sk/PRIVATE/pictures/sig_il2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 11:21 AM
Bogun wrote:
- Yes, it is a result of constant Luftwhining on this
- forum.

No it's a result of constant improving aircraft FM, according to historical data.
Actually La-5FN had the performance of La-7. A lot of data has been posted here to prove that.
La-5FN couldn't use WEP for more than 2min and only immideately after take off. It climbed to 5000m for 5,2 min (this was the prototype, the serial fighters had worse abilities) which is slower than any Bf-109, including early Bf-109E.
In the game it outclimbed everything and barely overheats: you call that reallistic?!

- I expect this to happen to all Russian planes.

You are absolutely right since misteriously the majority of uber planes were russian...
I-16 outclimbing Bf-109G6 , or Yak-1 climbing and turning with no speed bleed...and so on...


If you want to to prove something please provide data,
I've provided here tons of data about serial fighters tests with their serial numbers proving that La-5FN is overmodelled.
It's been a long "fight" which took more than a year to prove that La-5FN is overmodelled. Obviously Oleg or/and team really read here...

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 11:38 AM
jurinko wrote:
- But your partially right, the limit for dive 650kph
- for La-5FN is really off - that was the limit for
- Yak-3s in reality

According to the La-5FN POH Vne was close to that number IIRC. I think there was a reason they made the La-9 a metal contruction. The German constructors traded manouverability for stronger and heavier constructions, whereas the Russians built light fighters with light constructions in order to maximise manouverability and agility.

http://www.iownjoo.com/freeimghost/robban75/Dora-9-3.JPG


'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 11:40 AM
Bogun wrote:
- Yes, it is a result of constant Luftwhining on this forum.
- I expect this to happen to all Russian planes.

like the "whining" about the to high 190 roll rate in the 190 FM thread?

-
- Notice also horrible La-5FN roll rate at high speeds
- - something German test pilot H.W.Lerche wrote about
- after testing damaged La-5FN at Rechlin Test Center:
- "Aileron effectiveness is outstanding. At Va 450km/h
- (280mph) a roll rate takes barely 4 sec; at Va
- 600km/h (375 mph)" aileron forces become high but
- can be assisted by rapid rudder movement."

send your information to Oleg like the "Luftwhiners" did

-
- Luftwhiners are killing all Russian planes, not just La-5FN.
- Luftwhiners don't care about real life planes performance.
-

the test quote was good, but the rest is pure emotion. You have no proof and by writing such things without proof youre doing exactly the same thing you criticise, your whining.

show where the errors are, bring data about "real life planes performance" and we can discuss it

what parameter should Oleg adjust with "Luftwhiners are killing all Russian planes"?



quiet_man

second foundation member of the EURO_Snoopy fan club!

I'm quiet_man, but if I post I post quiet much /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 11:45 AM
A duck is a duck is a duck.a duck.And a duck vs a pigeon is not that bad.Reality sets in and it looks like we have a new generation of whiners on there way.

And don't worry we LW 109 and 190 pilots still run after we dive, swoop down and attack.We can outrun you but we still can't out-manouver you at 1000m.A low level flying LW pilot was a dead one.We fly like they flew.

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 11:47 AM
Tipoman can you please post something about La's roll rate? I would be really happy to know.

BTW I think that La5FN/7 climbed exceptionaly well to same 2000-3000m and above this alt it became much slower (forsazh could not be used). AFAIK old good IL2 modelled alt only to 3000m..

312_Lazy
312. (Czechoslovak) Sq. RAF
http://312.jinak.cz

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 11:53 AM
robban:

Planes built from metal are lighter than wooden ones.

312_Lazy
312. (Czechoslovak) Sq. RAF
http://312.jinak.cz

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 11:57 AM
I like the challenge of the VVS aircraft now, definitely think 'character' is a good way of saying it.

Had some good fights going on last night, pulling the aircraft to the edge - great stuff!

S!
609IAP_Recon

Forgotten Wars Virtual War
Forum: http://fogwar.luftwaffe.net/forums/index.php
Website: http://forgottenwars.dyndns.org
Visit 609IAP at http://takeoff.to/609IAP

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg

Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 12:23 PM
Lazy_312 wrote:
- Planes built from metal are lighter than wooden
- ones.

By heavier I meant more armor./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.iownjoo.com/freeimghost/robban75/Dora-9-3.JPG


'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 12:47 PM
Lazy_312 wrote:
- Tipoman can you please post something about La's
- roll rate? I would be really happy to know.

search here:
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/Perform.html

and some more data:
<table border="1">
<col width="64" style="width:48pt">
<col width="179" style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:6546;width:134pt">
<col width="111" style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:4059;width:83pt">
<col width="95" style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:3474;width:71pt">
<col width="114" style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:4169;width:86pt">
<col width="64" style="width:48pt">
<tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt">
<td height="17" class="xl25" width="64" style="height:12.75pt;width:48pt" bordercolor="#000000">Produced</td>
<td class="xl25" width="179" style="width:134pt" bordercolor="#000000">Plane</td>
<td class="xl25" width="111" style="width:83pt" bordercolor="#000000">Serial
Number</td>
<td class="xl25" width="95" style="width:71pt" bordercolor="#000000">Max
Speed</td>
<td class="xl26" width="114" style="width:86pt" bordercolor="#000000">Max
Speed/Alt</td>
<td class="xl25" width="64" style="width:48pt" bordercolor="#000000">Climb
to</td>
</tr>
<tr height="21" style="mso-height-source:userset;height:15.75pt">
<td height="21" class="xl25" style="height:15.75pt" bordercolor="#000000">Year</td>
<td class="xl25" bordercolor="#000000">Plane</td>
<td class="xl25" x:str="Serial " bordercolor="#000000">Serial</td>
<td class="xl25" bordercolor="#000000">Sea level</td>
<td class="xl26" bordercolor="#000000">km/h /meters</td>
<td class="xl26" bordercolor="#000000">5000/min</td>
</tr>
<tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt">
<td height="17" align="right" style="height:12.75pt" x:num bordercolor="#000000">1942</td>
<td bordercolor="#000000">LaGG-3 Œ-105</td>
<td bordercolor="#000000">N 3121855- '42</td>
<td align="right" x:num bordercolor="#000000">462</td>
<td class="xl24" bordercolor="#000000">554/4850</td>
<td align="right" x:num="9.1" bordercolor="#000000">9,1</td>
</tr>
<tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt">
<td height="17" align="right" style="height:12.75pt" x:num bordercolor="#000000">1942</td>
<td bordercolor="#000000">LaGG-3 Œ-105</td>
<td bordercolor="#000000">N 3121232</td>
<td align="right" x:num bordercolor="#000000">466</td>
<td class="xl24" bordercolor="#000000">539/5100</td>
<td align="right" x:num="7.1" bordercolor="#000000">7,1</td>
</tr>
<tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt">
<td height="17" align="right" style="height:12.75pt" x:num bordercolor="#000000">1943</td>
<td x:str="LaGG-3 " bordercolor="#000000">LaGG-3</td>
<td bordercolor="#000000">N 6311 - V.43</td>
<td align="right" x:num bordercolor="#000000">534</td>
<td class="xl24" bordercolor="#000000">590 / 3600</td>
<td align="right" x:num="5.5" bordercolor="#000000">5,5</td>
</tr>
<tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt">
<td height="17" align="right" style="height:12.75pt" x:num bordercolor="#000000">1943</td>
<td bordercolor="#000000">LaGG-3 Œ-105ӝ</td>
<td x:str=" N 6542 " bordercolor="#000000"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>N
6542</td>
<td bordercolor="#000000"> </td>
<td class="xl24" x:num bordercolor="#000000">581</td>
<td align="right" x:num="5.4" bordercolor="#000000">5,4</td>
</tr>
<tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt">
<td height="17" align="right" style="height:12.75pt" x:num bordercolor="#000000">1943</td>
<td bordercolor="#000000">La-5</td>
<td bordercolor="#000000"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>N
39213047ӝ</td>
<td align="right" x:num bordercolor="#000000">560</td>
<td class="xl24" x:num bordercolor="#000000">600</td>
<td align="right" x:num="5.5" bordercolor="#000000">5,5</td>
</tr>
<tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt">
<td height="17" align="right" style="height:12.75pt" x:num bordercolor="#000000">1943</td>
<td bordercolor="#000000">La-5 Œ-82 F</td>
<td bordercolor="#000000">N 39213718 ӝ</td>
<td align="right" x:num bordercolor="#000000">550</td>
<td class="xl24" x:num bordercolor="#000000">595</td>
<td align="right" x:num bordercolor="#000000">6</td>
</tr>
<tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt">
<td height="17" align="right" style="height:12.75pt" x:num bordercolor="#000000">1943</td>
<td bordercolor="#000000">La--5 FN</td>
<td bordercolor="#000000"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>N
39210531</td>
<td align="right" x:num bordercolor="#000000">572</td>
<td class="xl24" bordercolor="#000000">625 / 6200</td>
<td align="right" x:num="5.3" bordercolor="#000000">5,3</td>
</tr>
<tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt">
<td height="17" align="right" style="height:12.75pt" x:num bordercolor="#000000">1943</td>
<td bordercolor="#000000">La-5 FN</td>
<td bordercolor="#000000"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>N
39210540</td>
<td align="right" x:num bordercolor="#000000">570</td>
<td class="xl24" bordercolor="#000000">636 / 6200</td>
<td align="right" x:num="5.3" bordercolor="#000000">5,3</td>
</tr>
<tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt">
<td height="17" align="right" style="height:12.75pt" x:num bordercolor="#000000">1943</td>
<td bordercolor="#000000">La-5F</td>
<td bordercolor="#000000">N 39213973</td>
<td align="right" x:num bordercolor="#000000">552</td>
<td class="xl24" x:num bordercolor="#000000">593</td>
<td align="right" x:num="5.6" bordercolor="#000000">5,6</td>
</tr>
</table>

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 01:51 PM
I see no data for the roll rate discussed but thanks anyway. :-) The numbers you provide seem OK to me.

312_Lazy
312. (Czechoslovak) Sq. RAF
http://312.jinak.cz

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 02:43 PM
When I started participate in this tread - I did not flu La-5 after updating to v1.1b, so I took it for a spin yesterday evening. I did not do performance testing, so I can only talk about "feel" of the plane. It feels ok (in lowercase). It is not perfect, not Uber anymore, just ok, like many other planes in the game.
And this is a good thing, that's the way I like it.

Flight model been adjusted, it feels like stalling a little easier, but nothing out of this world, nothing to complain about. Its high-speed roll fills like a little slow, but without hard data Oleg has - I would guess it is correct, acceptable and, anyway, virtual pilot can learn to live with it. Terminal dive speed was about 720 km/h TAS, which also seems a little low, need to cross-reference with pilot manual. There some oscillation while trying to aim precisely, could still be related to my joystick settings.
The plane is fine, we just need to adjust slightly to new FM.

Did not have chance to test fly P-39, but if its FM was adjusted toward what it was in old IL-2 and it is capable of stalling/spinning again - I may start flying it again. It would give that great feel of familiarity with the P-39 we all been reading in the books about it.

As of now my feeling about patch, based on a limited set of planes I tested to this day (P-40, La-5FN, Brewster, some Fw190) - new FM is very good. The only concern - it felt like there is even less speedloss in the turns, but I need to take closer look at it.

But so far - I am a happy camper.


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 02:57 PM
Just one Word .. loooooooooooooooooooooooooooollllllll

Thks Oleg planes are well now.....

Reality is reality .. sooooo stop crying and play ...


http://ibelgique.ifrance.com/jabo/FWREDNUAGE.jpg

Cdt Groupe Jabo http://membres.lycos.fr/jabos/STARTT.HTM

ZG77_Nagual
08-14-2003, 03:09 PM
I don't agree - the la7, la5fn and yak3 all are excellent planes and easily outturn anything german. I rarely fly these but have tested the yak3 and la7 and la5fn against 3 ace opponnents offline in k4s, g6as, doras, and a9s - no problems. The 20mms on the la7s make kills very quickly and easily and the aircraft is inferior to the 190s only in roll. As opponents online these planes all climb very well. They are restricted at high speeds - where the 190 shines - but otherwise are extremely good dogfighters and very easy to fly - they do stall and grab - but only when over controled - this is accurate. The difference in the patch is that it now takes more skill to fly these planes well. I find the yak3 and the la5fn/7s in particularly to be very easy planes to get kills in.


ONline the other night - in my first flight since the patch - I flew a 190a9 and encountered a good la7 pilot. I was defensive nearly the entire engagement as I tried to fight in the vertical but constantly found the la7 catching me in zoom climbs in ways that seemed impossible.
Eventually I was able to catch him on the downswing in a hammerhead - but I had to work very hard throughout the engagement and had taken enough damage to adversely affect the 190s stability. I don't think I'd have won if I hadn't had mk108s. The La pilot complained about the flight models and left the game! Ridiculous.


http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 03:11 PM
Overall, I'm very pleased with the patch after limited testing. It feels much more realistic now and hence, much more immersive.

Some FM tweaks can hopefully be done that won't mess up the code. For example, FW190, B-239, and Mig-3 do not seem to lose rolling velocity above 350mph.




<center><img src= "http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW4/FW190-A0-52.jpg" height=215 width=365>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 04:22 PM
La-5FN, a duck............LOL

The La-5FN is still the better chose at any hights and at any speeds. Surely the La-5FN is slower that the La-7 series, but it performs better on roll and zooms, according to historical reference.

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/sig2.jpg


"Kimura, tu as une tªte carrée comme un sale boche!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 04:31 PM
La-5FN is not a duck - it is a very decent fighter, it just feels a little different - we need to adjust.
La-5FN having better roll and zoom then La-7? No way.
La-7 had many aerodynamic enhancements implemented, taking in account all those TsAGI recommendations for improving La-5FN - it was better then La-5 in every way.


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 04:55 PM
This is very interesting because I'm a big La-5FN and La-7 fan and yet I haven't noticed any major differences in the tactics and the way that I fly them offline and online since the patch.

Just thought I'd spread some moderation to those still not with the patch yet. No problems encountered here...they perform very well. Anyone who tries to have a fight with me in a La-5FN is going to have a tough battle on his hands. Its no duck...

http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/icefire/icefire_tempest.jpg
"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." - Winston Churchill

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 05:03 PM
Hmm has anybody mentioned that the initial climbrate of the La7 is way too good ?! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif (average climbrate of 29,4 ms/s between SL and 1000m) ... That's ~5-7 m/s too high /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif .

So much about the undermodeled La7 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

-------------------
http://320015073007-0001.bei.t-online.de/il2-forum/signatur.gif
III/JG51_Atzebrueck

JG51 (http://www.jg51.de)
Virtual Online War (http://www.s-driess.de/vow/index.php?page=homeion=home)
"Ich bin ein Wurgerwhiner"

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 05:04 PM
Hm, was about to post some questions yesterday, but though this would only turn to a flamewar (Well /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ) or get locked or something, but as it's still open, what the heck...

So, how do the 5 and 7 compare now? The 5 seems to got toned down to what it should be (Right?), how's the 7?
It seems that in 1.0 the 5 was used because of the visibility compared to the 7, which was performing exactly like 5, but I'm getting the impression that in 1.1 La7 atleast climbs too well, or hasn't been changed much in the patch (So only 5 got toned down), and I'm not counting on myself to test 'em.

So, if the La7 is actually better (Like should?), I'm going to switch from 5. If it has overpowering stats, I think I'm going to stay with 5.

Oh and I'm not sure, but I think I've heard something about the La7 type with three B-20's being somehow buggy in 1.0? How is it in 1.1?
(As what I've understood is, that it just should be 7kg lighter than the 2x20mm version)


PS. I like the patch very much, fixed so many things, and I actually got to start a campaign (Finnish B239 pilot!) and I survived the first mission... whoa...
Even survived the second, but didn't get kills, got a Pe8 in the first, lucky shot to the fuel tanks I'd guess, as it just turned into a big fireball infront of me... too bad the .trk format is not working, and I forgot to start a .ntrk recording... missed my first campaing kill /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 05:10 PM
jesus christ people enough with the whining! from both sides, german and russian. Do you really think Oleg is going to take the time to read posts from people who whine like little pieholes. If I was him no.. I'd listen to people who'd actually sound like an adult..

just my .02.

have a happy holiday

b double "o" ger

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 05:29 PM
b00ger1 wrote:
- jesus christ people enough with the whining! from
- both sides, german and russian. Do you really think
- Oleg is going to take the time to read posts from
- people who whine like little pieholes. If I was him
- no.. I'd listen to people who'd actually sound like
- an adult..
-
- just my .02.
-
- have a happy holiday
-
- b double "o" ger
-
-
-
-
-

Next happy LW pilot?

3 International Avia Polk
***** 3.IAP_CHARLIE *****

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 05:34 PM
Atzebrueck wrote:
- Hmm has anybody mentioned that the initial climbrate
- of the La7 is way too good ?!
- (average climbrate of 29,4 ms/s
- between SL and 1000m) ... That's ~5-7 m/s too high
-

La-5FN and La-7 were both good climbers but not this good.
This is one area were Oleg still need to do some work.
Climb rates still wrong for many planes - definitely to high for La's, Fw families of planes. I think for Bf109 also, but did not do enough testing there.


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942


Message Edited on 08/14/0312:35PM by Bogun

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 05:40 PM
Anyone whining about LA series planes should be summarily shot. Just kidding.

But seriously, I along with many others, have been a dedicated 190 flyer since the original IL2. It took lots of time to become proficient and all the while La jocks were content to fly planes that lost no E, could out dive heavier planes, etc.

Now, realism has been injected into the FM's across the board. Hurri's, Yak's and La's are still phenomenal birds, they're just governed by the laws of physics.

One day I flew an La7 just for a change of pace, I was astounded at the smoothness, E retention and ability to make kills. When I went back to my beloved 190, it took me 2 days to shake the bad habits I'd picked up in the La.

Take time to learn the new patch and I'm sure you'll find the La's can more than hold their own. But personally, I be embarassed to whine about La's being porked. They're still among the easiest, if not the easiest, planes to fly -- a credit to their designers as wars are won not by the skills of the elite few, but rather by the abilities of the legions of average rank and file pilots.

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 05:56 PM
Bogun wrote:
- La-5FN is not a duck - it is a very decent fighter,
- it just feels a little different - we need to
- adjust.
- La-5FN having better roll and zoom then La-7? No
- way.
- La-7 had many aerodynamic enhancements implemented,
- taking in account all those TsAGI recommendations
- for improving La-5FN - it was better then La-5 in
- every way.

Not in every way as you stated. The list of complains on the La-7 prototype was very long. Among them poor ventilation of cockpit, high rudder pedal forces, lack of canopy emergency release, lack of a signle control to regulate eingine speed and prop pitch, an autom. supercharger control and cowl flap system. Out of a long list, of which these above were only few of them, only 2, were incorporated into production. Namely the jettisonable canopy and autom. prop pitch mechanism. Also the cockpit temerature rose to 40?C - even in winter - of poor isolation of the engine.

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/sig2.jpg


"Kimura, tu as une tªte carrée comme un sale boche!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 06:23 PM
KIMURA wrote:
- Bogun wrote:
-- La-5FN is not a duck - it is a very decent fighter,
-- it just feels a little different - we need to
-- adjust.
-- La-5FN having better roll and zoom then La-7? No
-- way.
-- La-7 had many aerodynamic enhancements implemented,
-- taking in account all those TsAGI recommendations
-- for improving La-5FN - it was better then La-5 in
-- every way.
-
- Not in every way as you stated. The list of
- complains on the La-7 prototype was very long. Among
- them poor ventilation of cockpit, high rudder pedal
- forces, lack of canopy emergency release, lack of a
- signle control to regulate eingine speed and prop
- pitch, an autom. supercharger control and cowl flap
- system. Out of a long list, of which these above
- were only few of them, only 2, were incorporated
- into production. Namely the jettisonable canopy and
- autom. prop pitch mechanism. Also the cockpit
- temerature rose to 40?C - even in winter - of poor
- isolation of the engine.
-
<img
- src="http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/sig2.j
- pg">
-
-
- "Kimura, tu as une tªte carrée comme un sale boche!"
-
- EJGr.Ost Kimura
-


KIMURA and now something from flightabilities...

Hard landings? OK
Bad maneuverability? NO
Bad flight characteristics? NO
Low performance? NO


3 International Avia Polk
***** 3.IAP_CHARLIE *****

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 06:31 PM
KIMURA wrote:
- Not in every way as you stated. The list of
- complains on the La-7 prototype was very long. Among
- them poor ventilation of cockpit, high rudder pedal
- forces, lack of canopy emergency release, lack of a
- signle control to regulate eingine speed and prop
- pitch, an autom. supercharger control and cowl flap
- system. Out of a long list, of which these above
- were only few of them, only 2, were incorporated
- into production. Namely the jettisonable canopy and
- autom. prop pitch mechanism. Also the cockpit
- temerature rose to 40?C - even in winter - of poor
- isolation of the engine.
-

Kimura, there are some mistakes, though often quoted.
There was a problem with the cockpit ventilation on pre-production La-7, all other problems are common with La-5FN.

Tester complained about "signle control to regulate engine speed and prop pitch, an autom. supercharger control and cowl flap system" - because he was familiar with Komandogerat of Fw190 and its analog in P-63. By that time Russians realized its advantages, but no Russian piston engine planes ever got it, I believe not even La-9 or La-11 (not sure).
There were some automation, but not one unit like on Fw190 or P-63.

Heat in the La-7 cockpit problem was solved in production in the same way it was solved for La-5FN. I will try to explain the problem, but my English still need much improvements. This was the original, well-known problem with first La-5. Firewall between engine and cockpit was not properly hermetically sealed - some hot air from high pressure engine compartment was leaking into lower pressure cockpit.
There were just too many openings for wires and stuff - they thought they got it nailed, but in testing of prototype the problem was back. I believe, first series of La-7 went to production with this defect. Late they implemented the same solution as on La-5FN - they added another outside air intake for the cockpit to have air pressure there higher then in the engine compartment. Cheap, quick and effective. Most production La-7 did not have this problem.

La-7 was superior to La-5FN in all respects. It was aerodynamically cleaner, lighter, better climbing, faster and with 3xB-20 cannons - better armed as well.


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 07:05 PM
I haven't tried La5FN in Fb 1.1, but it certainly was too good in 1.0.. Dive speed was overmodelled, imo never overheated, and most important, it took a lot of damage (up to 10 mk108 hits, and LOT of mg151/20).. now it will get destroyed form couple of MK108-shots (halleluja!)..

Sorry to hear if its a brick to fly now.. atleast LA7 is still very good.

____________________________________



Official Sig:



<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/vipez/shots/Vipez4.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 07:38 PM
Bogun wrote:
- Yes, it is a result of constant Luftwhining on this
- forum.
- I expect this to happen to all Russian planes.
-
- Notice also horrible La-5FN roll rate at high speeds
- - something German test pilot H.W.Lerche wrote about
- after testing damaged La-5FN at Rechlin Test Center:
- "Aileron effectiveness is outstanding. At Va 450km/h
- (280mph) a roll rate takes barely 4 sec; at Va
- 600km/h (375 mph)" aileron forces become high but
- can be assisted by rapid rudder movement."
-
- Luftwhiners are killing all Russian planes, not just
- La-5FN.
- Luftwhiners don't care about real life planes
- performance..
-

Oh please.. are you telling that FB 1.0 was balanced? Are you telling that FW-190 perfomance was correct on FB 1.0? Are you saying that BF-109 was really that weak, that one 7.62 mm hit and Controls gone? I don't think so.. This game favoured russians for long time. FB 1.1 Made a Huge difference in plane balance.. FW-190 is now VERY Dangerous. You can now Outdive the Light VVS-planes, which was impossible.. You can imagine how crap it felt in FB 1.0 flying a G2 and I-16 followed you in a dive at 700kmh..

LA5FN seems to be first cramped VVS-plane (not talking about P-40 or P-47) And IM sure THIS will get fixxed in the offial 1.1-patch.

And about LA5FN.. its roll rate was far from FW-190.. I've allways read that it had relativily poor roll rate, where as FW-190 had excelent. Just like in FB.. LAs are much move manouvarable yes.. I agree, that FW-190 roll rate is one or two seconds too high at high speeds now, but still.. FW-190 is about right now (AT LAST!) I AM hoping that US Würger-whiners HAD something to do it..

Bogun is one good VVS-whiner /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I believe that VVS-planes had considerable advantage in FB 1.1, but now it is much more real-like.. VVS-whiners, learn to live with it.. You are just shocked that FW-190 can now challenge you in even fight. And Brewster /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

____________________________________



Official Sig:



<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/vipez/shots/Vipez4.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 09:53 PM
FPS Stierlitz wrote:
-Russian technology = generally poor.Only some
- designs are relatively "successful", but these are
- only badly copied western designs.
- It doesn't matter what russian engineers are saying.
- They are incompetent brainwashed communist liars "by
- default". (the same applies to the majority of
- russian scientists, historians, or military.
- Only european or american data can be trusted.
-
Weldone,M-r Stierlitz,read only the west cold-war books about what happend in WWII and live with your dreams-for example like-E.Hartmann had 352 wins......(think about- the Americans,English and Soviet Aces didn't have all together so much wins-Kozhedub the first from the others had 64..!)and so on and so on....!
I'm realy sorry that most of you in this forum can't speak russian to see what historical information you miss(I speak russian good-I think)as well as you don't visit such interesting russian sites as www.airpages.ru,www.airwar.ru (http://www.airpages.ru,www.airwar.ru) and many, many others(although they have the front page in English).......
..And as well as
"Russian technology = generally poor.Only
some
- designs are relatively "successful", but these are
- only badly copied western designs......"

I have to say that the fact that S-300(and its US competition),Su-27,-30,-34,37,MiG-29(and the opinion of the German pilots who fly at it) all the anti-tank,anti-aircraft and Ballistic Soviet missiles.....shows that the soviet "copiers" "outruned" their Western "Prototypes" ....
Ha,ha,ha who does still believe such -cold war propaganda-nonsens !!
Sincerelly yours.....

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 10:03 PM
Face it, You loose the cold war! you just dont made it.

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 10:21 PM
But i have the feel Stierlitz was not seriouse.
He wanted to say the opposite what he was writing. He wanted to tell us that Russian engineers are and was very good.
And we should wake up and see that may they could not build great cars but great planes tanks and MGs and other war equipment.

But may i m just wrong and he realy was mean it seriouse what he was writing but then i cant agree with him.

I do belive Russia have/had great engineers and scientists
and PC game programmer as well /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 10:33 PM
LOL

Of course I was joking !!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif LMAO

I simply "summarized" some preconceptions usually seen on the forum in regard of Soviet technology and the competence of russian scientists and engineers.

Sadly, some people DO seriously believe this nonsense.

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 11:30 PM
Hey Stierlitz some people also belive Hartman Faked his 352 kills /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 11:55 PM
Why do they always bring up the "The German aces had more kills then the Allied aces so they must have had better planes" stuff?

One of the reasons why is that the Allies could not find any enemies to shoot down while the Germans got swamped most of the time, especially near the end of the war.

Another reason was that the German pilots were better trained and used better tactics.

<center> http://www.322squadron.com/banners/Giobanner.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 12:20 AM
TurboCrotch wrote:
.....have no problems
- with the changes, actually, the A/C has some
- character now.

(about La-5FN)

Agree, more fun fly her now me thinks...

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 12:32 AM
a5 is undermodel from speed

a8 fly 585km/h sealevel with erh¶hten ladedruck 2050ps

a5 only 570km/h that is wrong, with erh¶hten ladedruck 2050ps fly she 595km/h,because not bombrack


190 fly with 1,42ata (1750ps) 570km/h, but with 2050ps faster


most bad pilots fly upper la-5fn and la-7

now little change and have problem, how bad pilots get by change

from begin was la-5fn upper 43 server now get she little competition

and this pathetisch la-5fn begin to whinners

mean only la-5fn pilots that means a5 is upper 43



Message Edited on 08/15/0303:07AM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 12:50 AM
190 have differentially power so not same climb

a4 1580ps only 1min 1750ps overheat problem
a5 1750ps
a8 2050ps
a9 2300ps and propeller improvement


a4 with 1,3 ata 1580ps climb a4 4000kg 16m/sec /eric brown test

can you not understand that 2300ps a9 4230kg and improvement propeller climb better

keep in mind,a5 has 2050ps in game(erh¶hten ladedruck same as a8) but has the speed as 1750ps

a5 is undermodel speed



Message Edited on 08/15/0303:01AM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 03:18 AM
Maybe Oleg knows that aircraft performance at front line not related to test numbers the internet Noobs whine about.

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 10:03 AM
I've been an avid LA fan since IL2 original days. I've only flown once with the patch and like others have noticed the FM on the La7 has changed. For the better or worse I don't much care. Like the majority have posted I just have to readjust to the changes.

Yes it does stall easier than before and it's terminal dive is approx 720k/h before it was ridiculously high.

I must say though, having flown in IL2 original the other day the FM on the LA is about the same in both versions of the game.. long have the days gone when you could pull out of a near impossible dive at exceptionally low altitudes.

I'm no pilot so the ground is the only thing I hit with any accuracy. I'm just going to have to be more cautious!!!!

Just my 2 cents for what its worth.

Thanks to Oleg and the team for a great patch and all their hard work. Thankfully my flight sim playing has never been wasted on titles such as CFS and the like.

BBloke

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 10:32 AM
COLLIN_GRAY wrote:
- La 5FN is now very bad - more than it should be.

It's funny. People are saying that Oleg is biased
towards VVS types because the P47 doesn't roll well
enough, and then others complain that VVS planes
are undermodelled. People complained before the patch
that guns were not effective enough, and now others
are complaining that planes blow up when shot at...

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 11:16 AM
I don't know were the problem is with those guys. As I mentioned - even after the patch - the La-5FN is the 1st choise if I fly VVS./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/sig2.jpg


"Kimura, tu as une tªte carrée comme un sale boche!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 11:23 AM
LOL @ VVSWHINERS /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Having played with several UFO:s until now against crippled okl planes AND NOW the scales are finally even! Oleg did a mans job and stripped vvs planes of their uber-abilities (mostly the missing energy loss in turns)

just re-install to 1.0 and have fun with your ufos if that is what u want. LOL heheh

someone plz give some candy to these crying children, theyre breaking my heart /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

-pozzu

ps. really, NOW the planes seem more realistic IMHO.

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 11:41 AM
I think ppl should stop mixing political stuff with technical stuff.

If you guys complaining about the LA-5 / 7 (which i personally hate as it's really easy to fly and has next to NO drawbacks. It's just a perfect plane) then bring technical data.
Check the infamous "Fw190 Whine"-Threads. Or take the P-47 Threads as a reference. Skip posts like "it simply sucks" or "Oh my I was killed by a 109, I'm so embarassed"...

Nobody will say russian planes were crap. They couldn't be.

In general russina technology is VERY VERY sturdy. no matter how the outcome of the cold war is.
It's no coincidence that more than 80% of infantry weapons around the world are AK-47...
It's no coincidence that the T-34 was (although just a medium tank) the BEST overall tank.
However, history hjas proven that due to political reasons the russian armed forces were unable to utilize their equipment to full effect (best example are T-34 and KV-1 tanks. Far superior to anything that the germans boasted at start of "barbarossa" but neverthless russians got kicked around till moscwo until they recovered) no back to the topic.

I think, that the designers listen to sound posts. You know, you may be waterdrops but they will shape a stone..in time.
So stop this anti Luftwhining (the 109 g and k series really got some drawbacks now) and take you time, surf the web, read some books about technical aspects and bring it here for discussion.
Unfortunately getting plain numbers is difficult. All sides are biased.
Western sources are of course unwilling to say that their class-enemy from cold war maybe was not only a vodka drinking communists whereas the other side thinks of americans as texas-cowboys.

Get yourself technical data only.

One other thing for the guys saying that "front perfomrance" was lower than "test performance".
That's ovious. Period. But you must either take "fron performance" for ALL planes or "test-performance" for all.
I think that the designers/coders should not mix it up.
As long it's consistent it's ok.


And on the aspect of german pilots having more kills during the war than any other allied it's easy to solve.
Compare the required input you needed to get credit.

AFAIK western KILLs were hard work.
1) You needed camera footage.
2) You needed somebody proving that (wingman or squad mates)
3) You needed to kill plane from midair.

This is a difference to the german side, which not always needed #1 or #3.

Besides from all sides participating in the war germany was fighting from the start (the aggressor).
So it's no wonder that if you fight full 6 years you may have MORE kills than others.

Similar results can be seen when comparing kill stats from the pacific where the japanese fighter pilots have more kills than allied. After all, they were hunting chinese ducks...


SO back to the topic:
take tecnical data, provide it and discuss. Everything else is spam (like maybe this post from me... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 03:31 PM
of course Gotcha, cos they had the better confirming system /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

yes , there was a day, where the british claimed more than 180 german planes destroyed, but it were no more than 56.

you know that day ? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



JS_HH--Gotcha-- wrote:

- AFAIK western KILLs were hard work.
- 1) You needed camera footage.
- 2) You needed somebody proving that (wingman or
- squad mates)
- 3) You needed to kill plane from midair.


http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 03:44 PM
Boandlgramer wrote:
-
-
- you know that day ?
-


Was that one day of the battle that the Germans claimed the RAF was smashed, down to their last few a/c? I wunder were the Germans got that idea? Perhaps from LW claims?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 03:53 PM
you da man, milo /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .

hehehe ,its very famous:

Die RAF hat nur noch 50 j¤ger (the famous "last 50 " /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif the RAF is ALMOST down .
but the bombercrews were attacked form so many " last 50 ".




http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 04:02 PM
TurboPorsas wrote:
- LOL @ VVSWHINERS /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Having played with several
- UFO:s until now against crippled okl planes AND NOW
- the scales are finally even! Oleg did a mans job and
- stripped vvs planes of their uber-abilities (mostly
- the missing energy loss in turns)
-
- just re-install to 1.0 and have fun with your ufos
- if that is what u want. LOL heheh
-
- someone plz give some candy to these crying
- children, theyre breaking my heart
-
--pozzu
-


Forum is still filled with Luftwhiners about the Bf109 because now the FW190 is better then the 109's.

That's really funny, sure shows their hunger for more uberness needed in order to beat the reds.

- ps. really, NOW the planes seem more realistic IMHO.

Not all of them, there are still unrealistic features like the super dooper FW roll rate at all speeds, even with a full bomb load or heavy gun pods, but you will find that realistic I guess.

<center> http://www.322squadron.com/banners/Giobanner.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 08:08 PM
- Forum is still filled with Luftwhiners about the
- Bf109 because now the FW190 is better then the
- 109's.
-
- That's really funny, sure shows their hunger for
- more uberness needed in order to beat the reds.
-
-- ps. really, NOW the planes seem more realistic IMHO.

I think this dilemma comes from two facts.
1) the undermodelled 190 in 1.0
2) the now imporved 190 in 1.1

Everyon thought "ah Oleg wont change this" now he did, improved a TON of things with the development team and half of the community is shocked (damn they actually can harm us now) and the other one is delighted (now at last we can kick some *** too).

This all never would have happened if the FM and the planes would've been this way from the start.

Most ppl would say "well, they need some minor fixing" but as a lot of ppl got used to the overpowered Hurris and the real powerful Las and Yaks, this situation has arised.

I'm very happy with thepatch as it allows for bigger variety. Before patch you were reduced to "target" or hunter. Now it's very varied http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 08:25 PM
Boandlgramer wrote:
- of course Gotcha, cos they had the better
- confirming system /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .
-
- yes , there was a day, where the british claimed
- more than 180 german planes destroyed, but it were
- no more than 56.
-
- you know that day ?


"You is wrong."

The RAF didn`t claim more than 180 German planes killed on a single day, against some the ~50 that were really shot down.

The RAF claimed that at least 3 times during BoB, IIRC once in August, and twice in Septber. Real losses were some 50-60 planes, however.


As for the requirements for confirming a LW pilot`s claim: The LW didn`t even started the process of confirmation if the pilot couldn`t show at least one witness of his kill.
If he hadn`t got a witness, not only his claim was rejected, they didn`t even bother to start the verification process.
As a general rule, kills were not accepted as real if they couldn`t find the wreck of the plane, or confirm it by other ways (ie. ground troops observing and confirming the shotdown of a plane in the vicinity).

http://vo101isegrim.piranho.com/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 10:13 PM
JaBo_HH--Gotcha wrote:
- I think this dilemma comes from two facts.
- 1) the undermodelled 190 in 1.0
- 2) the now imporved 190 in 1.1
-
- Everyon thought "ah Oleg wont change this" now he
- did, improved a TON of things with the development
- team and half of the community is shocked (damn they
- actually can harm us now) and the other one is
- delighted (now at last we can kick some *** too).
-
- This all never would have happened if the FM and the
- planes would've been this way from the start.
-
- Most ppl would say "well, they need some minor
- fixing" but as a lot of ppl got used to the
- overpowered Hurris and the real powerful Las and
- Yaks, this situation has arised.
-
- I'm very happy with thepatch as it allows for bigger
- variety. Before patch you were reduced to "target"
- or hunter. Now it's very varied /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Most of the whiners here are the dogfighting icon, padlock no skilled people who got their @$$ handed on a platter because were fighting low and slow turn and buring combat.

When you look at the various online wars it was not the VVS who are dominating the skies, win losses were slightly in favor of the LW.

I wonder how they pulled that off in their completely undermodelled planes.
You won't hear me saying that version 1.0 was all peachy but all this whining was taken far further then the actual truth, even now there are still luftwhiners complaining about ther planes not being good enough and as far as I see it they never will.

Well, if all VVS planes are crippled into target drones and all LW reign the virtual skies, they they will stop whining and this forum will only see posts about their great victory stories.

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XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 10:25 PM
TurboPorsas wrote:
- LOL @ VVSWHINERS /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Having played with several
- UFO:s until now against crippled okl planes AND NOW
- the scales are finally even! Oleg did a mans job and
- stripped vvs planes of their uber-abilities (mostly
- the missing energy loss in turns)
-
- just re-install to 1.0 and have fun with your ufos
- if that is what u want. LOL heheh
-
- someone plz give some candy to these crying
- children, theyre breaking my heart /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
--pozzu
-
- ps. really, NOW the planes seem more realistic IMHO.
-
-
he he well said.....
-
-

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 11:26 PM
Cappadocian_317 wrote:
- I wonder how they pulled that off in their
- completely undermodelled planes.

well actually the Bf109 in Version 1.0 was over-modelled...and nerly every1 in the german room knows that.

Now the 109 was corrected:
first "shock" for the 109 Pilots

In 1.0 the 190 was verry useless (compared to 109)
and there goes the problem.
Many pilots perfered the 190 (in reality) because it outclasses the 109.
In game it was the complet opposite.

Then the 190 was improved and is now (all in all) superror to the 109:
secend "shock" for 109 Pilots, hey this is better than my plane??!
and alsow for the VVS, killing an A4/A5 was verry easy in 1.0
now they can kill you. > "whats going on!?"

---
but this is just normal.
I was alsow shocked about the "bad" performing 109s but they are still good, and i prefer them in Dogfight (G2 eg)

All in All:
the difference between the 109 / 190 pre and after- patch are verry big, so it is quite suprising (at first)
and it is the same thing with La5FN/190/109

You have to see the performence compared to the other planes. not just a single one.

BTW: the La5FN did not stall that easy...you have to force her hard.
BTW2: the 190 is verry difficult to fly (stalls verry quickly and anoying.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

my 2cts


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Als er sah, dass die Schlacht verloren war, weil die meisten seiner Soldaten tot ins Gras gebissen hatten, stellte er sich vor den siegreichen Gegner und übergab sich.

Message Edited on 08/15/0310:29PM by ToP_BlackSheep

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 02:36 AM
about the whole aces thing:

I heard that during the Battle of Britain the Germans reported that they shot down something like 76 RAF planes when the RAF lost a grand total of 13.

In another incident a pair of 109s reported downing 6 British planes in North Africa when in reality there were sand storms over the Birtish airfields and no Brits were airborne.



Also I have read that VVS pilots required confirmation FROM THE GROUND to get a kill. Which meant that basically anything too far from the FEBA (forward edge of battle area to the civvies) or over water was not even counted.

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 02:39 AM
I have sufferd enough! u Couldnt tell if it was A newbie flying LA or a Professional they looked the same impossible. Now that was about time making LA to duck.Now i am able to shoot it down with bf109e-7z thx Oleg

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 03:01 AM
V.DD wrote:
- I have sufferd enough! u Couldnt tell if it was A
- newbie flying LA or a Professional they looked the
- same impossible. Now that was about time making LA
- to duck.Now i am able to shoot it down with
- bf109e-7z thx Oleg
-
-

so was it realistic that Emils could outfly La?

or are you now happy that they pulled the teeth on your opponents so you can fly a 1941 plane and turkeyshoot a 1944 plane?

it's obvious that the latter is true

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 03:19 AM
Its not that simple as it sounds u have to be experienced with emil E-7z to shoot down LA

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 07:07 AM
Stryker_214 wrote:
- about the whole aces thing:
-
- I heard that during the Battle of Britain the
- Germans reported that they shot down something like
- 76 RAF planes when the RAF lost a grand total of 13.


where can you hear such things ?

which day in the BOB campagne?



http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 09:26 AM
Stryker_214 wrote:
- about the whole aces thing:

- I heard that during the Battle of Britain the
- Germans reported that they shot down something like
- 76 RAF planes when the RAF lost a grand total of 13.

Indeed the whole BoB is well recorded, would be nice to have a day so the events can be checked by any who wish to do so.

Secondly, there is a difference between CLAIMED for the day and actually awarded. The CLAIM may be publicized in the press, it may even be included in the KTB, but in the end it will not be awarded to the pilots. Look at Schweinfurt-Regensburg, where there is a clear distinction between this first tally of claims and the latter confirmation, which is very close to the actual number of lost bombers (not counting write offs).

Indeed during the Battle of Britain the verification was problem for the Luftwaffe, since most of the fighting was over enemy territory or water. The previous successes will indeed have caused more overclaiming.

However most of the German fighting was done over friendly territory (*) or near the frontline, confirmation often coming from the ground. Helas the Western Allies were forced to fight most of their war over enemy territory, so in the end the verification problem was for most of the war on their shoes. On the Eastern Front the Russians and Germans shared more or less the same variables when it comes the means to verify claims, the ebb and flow of the war tide deciding the quality, since fast withdrawals remove the benefit of possible ground verification.

* The statistical battle is always interesting. What is considered to be a loss?

Ditched, but repairable isn't considered a loss, however the enemy claiming said victory is also correct, since he won the fight.

A pilot who lands his lightly damaged a/c in one piece, but has to be pulled out of action due to wounds is a loss, but not recorded as such, nor does the victor know his success.

- In another incident a pair of 109s reported downing
- 6 British planes in North Africa when in reality
- there were sand storms over the Birtish airfields
- and no Brits were airborne.

Another incident is not enough, yet again a date would be interesting so it can be checked through independant means. Books like Prien's JG 3, 27, 53 and 77 unit histories, Christopher Shores's North African histories, perhaps Cull's work.

Of course there is always the problem of clerical errors. Not always were combat reports filed right after the fact, but sometimes days after. Dates could be mixed etc.

- Also I have read that VVS pilots required
- confirmation FROM THE GROUND to get a kill. Which
- meant that basically anything too far from the FEBA
- (forward edge of battle area to the civvies) or over
- water was not even counted.

Although I am too lazy to provide it myself, it should be fairly easy for this international community to post the official claiming system of each major combattant during WW2. No "assumptions" and foggy "knowledge", but the straight poop with possible source reference.

However in the end there is no smoking gun against the Luftwaffe, at least not one that would leave a gaping whole in the history books of the opposing forces...that is one that will leave the reputation of their aces in tact.

Overclaiming sure, from little to much depending on the campaign, but more so than their opposition, that is one is too hard to sell without a great cost to national pride (unless one doesn't bother about objectivity of course...)

BTW...

Thought the La-5FN handled beautifully when I tested her, good precision in handling /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Ruy "SPADES" Horta
http://www.xs4all.nl/~rhorta
-----------------------------
Il-2 - VEF JG 77
-----------------------------
'95-02 - WB Jagdgeschwader 53
'99-00 - DoA Jagdstaffel 18
-----------------------------
The rest is history...

http:\\www.xs4all.nl\~rhorta\brother.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 09:38 AM
Atzebrueck wrote:
- Hmm has anybody mentioned that the initial climbrate
- of the La7 is way too good ?! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif (average climbrate of 29,4 ms/s
- between SL and 1000m) ... That's ~5-7 m/s too high
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif .

You could repeat the test... I could hold the climb indicator at 30m/s well up to ~1500m, so I think IC is even above 30m/s in 1.1b /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif .


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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 11:10 AM
V.DD wrote:
- Its not that simple as it sounds u have to be
- experienced with emil E-7z to shoot down LA

LOL, no you don't.

The E-7 Emils are very easy to pilot, the only backdraw is the low cannon ammo but other then that it has no serious flaws, you can B&Z and T&B with it easy.

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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 02:36 PM
are you serious ?

do you realy think that the 109E7 is able to outturn the La5FN ?
i'd like to see a record of this.
This is BS the Emil is no match for an LA5FN, even the F4 would have no easy going.
so show a track where you can confirm your words!



Cappadocian_317 wrote:
-
- V.DD wrote:
-- Its not that simple as it sounds u have to be
-- experienced with emil E-7z to shoot down LA
-
- LOL, no you don't.
-
- The E-7 Emils are very easy to pilot, the only
- backdraw is the low cannon ammo but other then that
- it has no serious flaws, you can B&Z and T&B with it
- easy.
-



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Als er sah, dass die Schlacht verloren war, weil die meisten seiner Soldaten tot ins Gras gebissen hatten, stellte er sich vor den siegreichen Gegner und übergab sich.

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 03:53 PM
Oh Wait. Does this thread involve VVS Whining. Let me get my little violin.

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 04:13 PM
funny when anyone playing as the Soviets complains it's "whining" when anyone playing as the bloody krauts complains it's "the true facts" and should be implemented into the game immediately.

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 04:35 PM
ToP_BlackSheep wrote:
- are you serious ?
-
- do you realy think that the 109E7 is able to outturn
- the La5FN ?
- i'd like to see a record of this.
- This is BS the Emil is no match for an LA5FN, even
- the F4 would have no easy going.
- so show a track where you can confirm your words!

Talk about getting all worked up because someone dares to say a LW bird is easy to fly.

In 1.1b the Emil turns better then an F4 and the flimsy LA's cannot take any damage, the engine fails after one hit and then it's history.

The only advantage the LA5FN has is a slightly better climb and it's faster down low, but once your reach the point you can use the booster on the E7-Z the LA5FN doesn't stand a chance.

So I say it again, the Emils are EASY to pilot, no prop pitch, no supercharger, no radiator and no fuel mix input needed, just the stick, rudder pedals and the throttle are needed.

Different matter on the LA5FN, you need to adjust prop pitch constantly to manage your speed as well as the throttle, watch your alt because of the fuel mix settings, set supercharger when needed and manage your engine/cowl flaps to keep it from overheating while trying to shoot down other planes.

Is that so difficult to understand or are you just dense by birth?

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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 09:31 PM
I wonder what will be left when all LW planes are uber and the rest are reduced to target drones!!!!

Because all those planes where top of the bill and won the war.

It will be very quiet here ...

No more fun

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!GAME OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ZG77_Nagual
08-16-2003, 10:06 PM
I don't get this - la has no problem with anything.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 10:17 PM
"I wonder what will be left when all LW planes are uber and the rest are reduced to target drones!!!!"


That's really not true.

The Yak-9U is a very fast and stable plane, one of the best FB energy figher (can't understand why no one flies this plane!)

The P-39 is a very effective boom and zoomer, especially in 1942.

The La-5 is very good in turning fights.

The Yak-3 is great in manoeuvering and a good all-rounder too.

But now, with the Russian planes, you cannot do anything you want at the moment you want, like in the near past. But if you fly them correctly, with tactics in mind, they're very efficient (ok, the blue players have been obliged to fly this way for the past two years, some of them have so an unfair "skills" advantage /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ).

But I agree some FM's could be tweaked a little bit, for instance the Yak-9 seems very slow!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 12:08 AM
Cappadocian_317 wrote:
-
- Different matter on the LA5FN, you need to adjust
- prop pitch constantly to manage your speed as well
- as the throttle, watch your alt because of the fuel
- mix settings, set supercharger when needed and
- manage your engine/cowl flaps to keep it from
- overheating while trying to shoot down other planes.


I repeat show me a track where you had to do so.
I want to see a track where you had to manage Pitch to stay fast, set up the mixture, activate the supercharger, and manage Radiator.

If it is so, please show me, and i'll belive.

If you have no webspace, than PM me and i'll give you my eMail adress.


BTW: you can't set up mixture in any 109, P40 and maybe some others this is a bug and no! Advantage!!

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Als er sah, dass die Schlacht verloren war, weil die meisten seiner Soldaten tot ins Gras gebissen hatten, stellte er sich vor den siegreichen Gegner und übergab sich.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 01:47 AM
ZG77_Nagual wrote:
- I don't get this - la has no problem with anything.
-
AMEN!

LAs - they are still SUperb-planes. LA5FN is the fastest plane in 1943.. Outspeeds fw190A5 and 109 G6.. Also Outturns them.. though it now looses more rapidly E, but that is how it is supposed to be! And dive speed is not tas good as 109 and FW-190 but that is true also.. so what is there to whine? Climbing is also very good.. I had no problems keeping 109 G6s and FW190 A5s behind my back on a dogfight server (1943..) .. and LA-7 is the fastest plane in 44, on low altitudes, and it outturns every german plane.. only weakness it has is low diving speed, but that is how it is supposed to be.. Russian Balsa wood is not that strong you know..

in FB 1.0 VVS-pilots did not have to think anything about tactics.. they just move with their super Yaks and LAs. Now they have to actually think what they do.. I mean it was impossible to dive away from LAs/Yaks in heavier german planes, it was impossible to beat them in turnfights when they did not lost any E, and last they took much more damage than 109.. esspecially the Light Yaks.. sure FW-190 took more damage but FW-190 was piece of crap in fb 1.0..It was not easy to down a yak, since it required 10 MK108 hits or sometimes over 30 MG151/20 hits.. same goes for LAs.. now they blow from 1-2 mk108 hits like they should.. and FW-190 are very good now.. it rules the skys when properly used.. like it should/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif It was one of the best B&Z:er, if not the best.. so what is there to whine.. Its not like the LA has even a visibility problem with gunsight, like the FW-190 has..

And like some said.. Online leages tell nothing about the planes.. In my honest opinion VVS had the advantage on everything in FB 1.0, but still for example in VOW AXis won most of the missions.. this is mostly because most missions in VOW favours the blues..but when you look at the aircraft kills, you see that LAs and Yaks dominate, because they were DAMN hard to shoot down in FB 1.0.. now they can be shot down equally with FW-190 and 109.




____________________________________



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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 01:14 PM
Vipez- wrote:
-
- ZG77_Nagual wrote:
-- I don't get this - la has no problem with anything.
--
- AMEN!
-
- LAs - they are still SUperb-planes. LA5FN is the
- fastest plane in 1943.. Outspeeds fw190A5 and 109
- G6.. Also Outturns them.. though it now looses more
- rapidly E, but that is how it is supposed to be! And
- dive speed is not tas good as 109 and FW-190 but
- that is true also.. so what is there to whine?
- Climbing is also very good.. I had no problems
- keeping 109 G6s and FW190 A5s behind my back on a
- dogfight server (1943..) .. and LA-7 is the fastest
- plane in 44, on low altitudes, and it outturns every
- german plane.. only weakness it has is low diving
- speed, but that is how it is supposed to be..
- Russian Balsa wood is not that strong you know..
-
- in FB 1.0 VVS-pilots did not have to think anything
- about tactics.. they just move with their super Yaks
- and LAs. Now they have to actually think what they
- do.. I mean it was impossible to dive away from
- LAs/Yaks in heavier german planes, it was impossible
- to beat them in turnfights when they did not lost
- any E, and last they took much more damage than
- 109.. esspecially the Light Yaks.. sure FW-190 took
- more damage but FW-190 was piece of crap in fb
- 1.0..It was not easy to down a yak, since it
- required 10 MK108 hits or sometimes over 30 MG151/20
- hits.. same goes for LAs.. now they blow from 1-2
- mk108 hits like they should.. and FW-190 are very
- good now.. it rules the skys when properly used..
- like it should/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif It was one of the best B&Z:er,
- if not the best.. so what is there to whine.. Its
- not like the LA has even a visibility problem with
- gunsight, like the FW-190 has..
-
- And like some said.. Online leages tell nothing
- about the planes.. In my honest opinion VVS had the
- advantage on everything in FB 1.0, but still for
- example in VOW AXis won most of the missions.. this
- is mostly because most missions in VOW favours the
- blues..but when you look at the aircraft kills, you
- see that LAs and Yaks dominate, because they were
- DAMN hard to shoot down in FB 1.0.. now they can be
- shot down equally with FW-190 and 109.
-
-
-
-
-
- ____________________________________
-
-
-
-
- Official Sig:
-
-
-
- <center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/vipez/shots/Vipez4.jpg
- </center>



bloody well said.....

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 01:43 PM
ToP_BlackSheep wrote:
- I repeat show me a track where you had to do so.
- I want to see a track where you had to manage Pitch
- to stay fast, set up the mixture, activate the
- supercharger, and manage Radiator.
-
- If it is so, please show me, and i'll belive.

Looks like you have no clue with the CEM on the Russian birds.
You need to use prop pitch to REDUCE your speed or else the engine breaks down due to a high RPM, and reduce the throttle at the same time.
The Throttle and the prop pitch are not linked in the LA5FN.
Unlike the Emil where the throttle and prop pitch are linked.
Emil also has auto mixture, just like many other LW birds, we need to reduce mixture when we reach altitude or else your engine will cough up brown oil smoke and reduce power.
Emil also has auto gears while we need to watch our alt and set 2nd stage when going up or 1st stage when going down.

I suggest you read up on Engine control before comming here and start to crap against me with nothing but nonsens.

- BTW: you can't set up mixture in any 109, P40 and
- maybe some others this is a bug and no! Advantage!!

That's because it has auto mix controls.

And a BTW for me, show me where I claimed that the Emil could out turn an LA5FN because as far as I can see I never made that claim, I said that the Emil is EASY to control and that you CAN shoot down an LA5FN with it.

It's not so hard to read now is it?

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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 02:07 PM
interesting

oleg has la-5fn little faster make as in fb

and a5 slower

it seem oleg like balance


a5 use erh¶hten ladedruck that means 2050ps

with this power fly she almost 600km/h sealevel

a8 fly 571km/h only with 1,42 ata 1750ps with bombrack eric brown 190 test

with same power fly a5 10km/h faster 581km/h, because no bombrack

but with 2050ps fly she over 595km/h sealevel

oleg has a5 undermodel

a5 with erh¶hten ladedruck 2050ps is faster as la-5fn

oleg please fix that


Message Edited on 08/17/0304:24PM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 02:22 PM
Vipez- wrote:
- Its
- not like the LA has even a visibility problem with
- gunsight, like the FW-190 has..

Have you actually looked at the gunsight of the LA's?
They are not much use for deflection shooting either.

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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 04:16 PM
Cappadocian_317 wrote:
-
- Vipez- wrote:
-- Its
-- not like the LA has even a visibility problem with
-- gunsight, like the FW-190 has..
-
- Have you actually looked at the gunsight of the
- LA's?
- They are not much use for deflection shooting
- either.
-

Especially the La-7's, the 5 has quite big gunsight, but the La-7 one is much smaller and blocks quite alot of the downward visibility over the nose.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 04:34 PM
hahahaha the LAs with bad forward visibility.

now taht was good!

Letz do open up a thread with: Oleg pls fix the LAs forward visibility.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif just great /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

cant u just stop whinning

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:30 PM
pipgig wrote:
- hahahaha the LAs with bad forward visibility.
-
- now taht was good!
-
- Letz do open up a thread with: Oleg pls fix the LAs
- forward visibility.
-
-
- cant u just stop whinning

I was not whining you tw@t, I nearly indicated an observation, where did I say "Please fix it Oleg".

I didn't so stop your baby behaviour pigpimpel.


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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:34 PM
The La5 and 7, bad visibility!!!!

Ok, there's only ONE link for that:

http://www.opticiansnet.com/

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:38 PM
Another one who fails to read, you should klick on your own link CHTD.

I am NOT talking about BAD visibility overall, only the gunsight, you know, that little thing in front of you that has a moving aim cross projected on it.

Geez, some people cannot even read properly.

<center> http://www.322squadron.com/banners/Giobanner.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:43 PM
A gunsight, what's a gunsight? In my 190, there's no gunsight, just a big bar!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:47 PM
A bar eh, great, I have a cold beer then.

<center> http://www.322squadron.com/banners/Giobanner.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 08:27 PM
Zikky wrote: La5FN-from eagle to duck!

- Can someone please tell me why it's been neutered



Actually, if you take a good look at them, the La 5 series A/Cs do look much more like inbred ducks than eagles anyway.....:-)))))

Time for some humour.....!

Do217P

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 10:31 PM
Cappadocian_317 wrote:
-
- pipgig wrote:
-- hahahaha the LAs with bad forward visibility.
--
-- now taht was good!
--
-- Letz do open up a thread with: Oleg pls fix the LAs
-- forward visibility.
--
--
-- cant u just stop whinning
-
- I was not whining you tw@t, I nearly indicated an
- observation, where did I say "Please fix it Oleg".
-
- I didn't so stop your baby behaviour pigpimpel.
-
-
-
- <center> <img
- src="http://www.322squadron.com/banners/Giobanner.
- jpg"> </center>
-


Are u trying to *** me Cappadocian?

Who the *** was talking about you bich.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 10:38 PM
Ah, ah, now a testosteron competition /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 11:35 PM
pipgig wrote:
- Are u trying to *** me Cappadocian?
-
- Who the *** was talking about you bich.

Time for your bottle I think, you seem a bit cranky.

Now go poopoo on the potty and be a good little pimpel.

<center> http://www.322squadron.com/banners/Giobanner.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 12:04 AM
@Cappadocian_317

well you have no clue what i am talking about.
And i don't want to discuss with an subject like you anymore.

I think you should go back to crimson skys and play there, that is not so damn complex like FB so maybe you will be able to score a few hits....
If you are not able to shoot down an 109!!E!! in your LA5FN then there is no help for you out there, you must be the worst pilot i know....

i have no time to do such a discussoin with someone which doesn't even know what he's talking about....


BTW: the LA5FN has auto-pitch*...../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif so stop talking BS and go home to your mom and whine there!

*EDIT: I was missing the Word !constand Speed Propeller!

BTW2: it's not the machine, its the pilot...

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<hr style="width: 100%; height: 2px;">
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"Never argue with an idiot! They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." (S.U.X Infinity)

Message Edited on 08/18/0308:36AM by ToP_BlackSheep

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 01:33 AM
No offence to the Russians, ...

...but I never heard of IL2's or La5's until I baught this game.

Some folks think they can re-write history with a good book, movie or video game.

So lets face it. Russian planes suc.

Sorry Oleg, just call'n it like I see it.

:0
ick

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:16 AM
icaris1.0 wrote:
- No offence to the Russians, ...
-
- ...but I never heard of IL2's or La5's until I
- baught this game.
-
- Some folks think they can re-write history with a
- good book, movie or video game.
-
- So lets face it. Russian planes suc.
-
- Sorry Oleg, just call'n it like I see it.


You never heard of the IL-2, I hope you had heat in that cave you've been living in.



"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close your eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:18 AM
Cappadocian_317 wrote:
-
- -
- Have you actually looked at the gunsight of the
- LA's?
- They are not much use for deflection shooting
- either.
-
- <-

Only after the furore of the FW190 sight threads where someone pointed out that the La5s should have even worse over the nose visibility than the FW190.

In IL-2 the La 5FN had excellent deflection "picture" capabilities, better than the Yaks and 109. It's only now that this has been corrected.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:29 AM
Zikky wrote: La5FN-from eagle to duck!

- Can someone please tell me why it's been neutered

Neutered?????

We just did 2 days of testing the La5FN and nicknamed it "Freak of Nature".

I **personally** zoom climbed from 0 to 2.5Km, started at 520kph and was still at 300Kph at 2.5Km. I got the idea because an AI LA zoom climbed up to a 262 and shot it in a coop we did for fun and that jsut seemed too wierd.

So we flew the La5FN ourselves to check it out... and if you think it's neutered then you must only fly jets because the La5FN climbs with the least e-loss, handles more smoothly and is harder to stall than any other prop plane any of us have flown.

Within 3 minutes of getting into one, our squad leader said: "This thing flies like a dream!"

It was so easy to fly that I had to disable it from my dogfight server, with the 262 also being disabled, because having those planes in with the others just seemed to be totally unfair to the rest of the pilots.

And all this was AFTER the patch!!

OG_Vorlin

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:34 AM
"You never heard of the IL-2, I hope you had heat in that cave you've been living in."

??? I had never heard of it either. And no, I don't live in any cave so staple your lips before saying anything stupid.

But I have heard of the Yak3... which is fantastic plane and it really was that way in real life.

The history of the western front is what is taught in American schools and shown in American movies... so we see almost nothing of the battles, equipment or heros of the Eastern Front.

OG_Vorlin

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:04 AM
Oh boys, stop the political issues again...

It's a pity that in western countries the so called eastern-front was neglected and all the "cool" stuff has happened in the west.
I suppose everyone gets a read into history.
Read about REAL Tank battles. (Kursk/Orel).
Learn about Sieges (Leningrad / Moscow)
and about big inanftry clashes (stalingrad etc)

Then, maybe then, you'll see that this so called poor country which you only now as the vodka-drinkin beer has had some serious battles.

maybe should have a peek about russian technology too.

I recommend OSPREY books about

T-34/76 and T-34/85 and KV-1.

Compare these tanks to
PZ IV, PZ V (panther) and PZ VI (Tiger) and then PLEASE do a quick check with
M4aX Sherman (also called the "spontaneous combustion" or the "don't shoot me, I'm crap")

Also check some entries about the famous Katyusha and the IL-2:Sturmovik.

I think, war on the eastern front was very very bloody.
The only think maybe as bloody on the west sides was the suicide landing in the normandy and the suicide run on monte-cassino....

Let's debate about the so called "duck" ok ?

After a weekend of testing I found that most pilots have recovered form the so called "UBER-FW"-shock and seem quite capable of killing it. I toasted one LA-7 and was toasted about three times in return (in my A8)
So for me it's not like I'm sitting in an UBER-Plane. But then again, I suck... But so do others..

In general I'm more happy with the FM now, as it requires even some "skill" (i hate this word..) from those so called "learn-to-fly"-La(mer)-boys...

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:29 AM
ToP_BlackSheep wrote:
-
- @Cappadocian_317
-
- well you have no clue what i am talking about.
- And i don't want to discuss with an subject like you
- anymore.
-
- I think you should go back to crimson skys and play
- there, that is not so damn complex like FB so maybe
- you will be able to score a few hits....
- If you are not able to shoot down an 109!!E!! in
- your LA5FN then there is no help for you out there,
- you must be the worst pilot i know....
-
- i have no time to do such a discussoin with someone
- which doesn't even know what he's talking about....
-
-
- BTW: the LA5FN has auto-pitch...../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif so stop talking BS and go home
- to your mom and whine there!

I didn't say I have problems with the LA5FN, just find me one post where I made that claim.
In this entire thread I never made a claim that the LA's are wrong and should be fixed, not once.

You cannot read either and maybe you should go back to Crimson Skies because the LA's do not have auto prop pitch in this game, they have manual pitch control.

And if your LA's have auto pitch then I suggest you do into the difficulty options and turn on "Complex Engine Management".

What I said was that the Bf109 E's are easy to fly, you know, as in not hard, not much effort to handle them, not that the LA's are completely useless and that I have a problem with them.

Here is another tip for you: READ before you post, but most of all UNDERSTAND the words before you post.
So far you managed to misread everything I wrote and to top of your stupidity you write that I don't know what I am talking about.
This is getting really bad, didn't you go to school or are you still there?
If you are then it's not too late yet to learn to read and understand.

<center> http://www.322squadron.com/banners/Giobanner.jpg </center>


Message Edited on 08/18/0307:41AM by Cappadocian_317

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:33 AM
Bastables wrote:
-
- Cappadocian_317 wrote:
--
-- -
-- Have you actually looked at the gunsight of the
-- LA's?
-- They are not much use for deflection shooting
-- either.
--
-- <-
-
- Only after the furore of the FW190 sight threads
- where someone pointed out that the La5s should have
- even worse over the nose visibility than the FW190.
-
- In IL-2 the La 5FN had excellent deflection
- "picture" capabilities, better than the Yaks and
- 109. It's only now that this has been corrected.

I know that, did I say it was wrong or something?
Not that I recall, but thanks anyway.

<center> http://www.322squadron.com/banners/Giobanner.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 10:33 AM
No offence to the Russians
-But I never heard of Il2s or La5's
-untill I bought this game.
-some folks think they can re-write history with a good
-book, movie or video game.
-So lets face it.Russian planes suc.
-....

No offence to icarius
Boy you never heard about Il2 or La5 because your
goverment didn't want you and your parents to do in your
pants before the right time comes.

About movies,re-writing the history or a video game.You
must be joking you can't be that uneducated.I quess it
really hurts you.
So lets face it.Russian planes are superior to anything in
43-45.And almost forgot you suck ,your country suck and
your parents are suck.
Take care dude.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 11:13 AM
Cappadocian_317 wrote:
-
-
-
- I know that, did I say it was wrong or something?
- Not that I recall, but thanks anyway.
-
-

Has more to do with pointing out that inspite of arguments that cockpits were "geometricly" correct the La5 enjoyed and still enjoys an unfair and unreal advantage in Il-2. Again this has only recently been corrected and only in FB.

The La7 has a Constant Speed prop that in FB world will not be overloaded under any flight regime, therefore in FB you do not need to fiddle with it and it essentially acts as a auto prop management system. It also will perform sustained turns at 300kp/h at 16 sec, odd when the object viewer says it should achive sustained turn rates of 18sec. Still at least now it bleeds speed in turns so I suppose we are moving forward.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 11:13 AM
Cappadocian_317 wrote:
-

- Have you actually looked at the gunsight of the
- LA's?
- They are not much use for deflection shooting
- either.
-

WEll in IL-2 this was not a problem.. but I still do think that the LAs have slightly better gunsight view.. FW-190 gunsight is simply blocked by that stupid bar, or gunsight is too small.. and too down..

LAs are still the best VVS-planes imo.. Very hard to beat with 109s, but Now I think they are easier to beat with 190..


____________________________________



Official Sig:



<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/vipez/shots/Vipez4.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 11:49 AM
Then the constant speed prop is not working correctly because there are plenty of other people who posted here that they are unable to reduce speed when they set throttle to 0% and need to adjust prop pitch to 0% as well to slow down.

<center> http://www.322squadron.com/banners/Giobanner.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 11:55 AM
Cappadocian_317 wrote:
- Then the constant speed prop is not working
- correctly because there are plenty of other people
- who posted here that they are unable to reduce speed
- when they set throttle to 0% and need to adjust prop
- pitch to 0% as well to slow down.
-
-
That's because the CSP is working far better than it should... even with 0 power being provided the CSP maintains it's RPM, providing thrust!

Also since it is a CSP people are just adjusting the rpm level not the pitch.




Message Edited on 08/18/0311:59PM by Bastables

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 12:31 PM
I am going to re-assign the prop pitch to my throttle control lever and set engine throttle control to my keyboard functions tonight and see how that works out.

I sure hope they will fix the CSP because this way it's very hard to slow down the plane.

<center> http://www.322squadron.com/banners/Giobanner.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 12:55 PM
FW190 was great even i FB1.0! And no expert skill was required. It's one of my favorite planes and I would love to fly it only if VVS give me it on VEF. :-)

Yak3 is much better plane (with the exception of intercept bombers missions) than La7. And in 1vs1 duel La7 has nearly no chance.

In real life (and VEF and VOW too) Russians used more old planes than luftwaffe. For example during Battle of Stalingrad Russians mostly had I16s who faced mostly Bf109G! So comparing LW and VVS planes of the same year is often quite different from history.

And clearly some german pilots think only german side knows something about tactics. LOL! So we are stupid VVS T&Bers. :-D Surely. So we can win only by using better planes! ;-)

I don't think La7 is a bad plane in 1.1. But I would like to see that roll rate data..

312_Lazy
312. (Czechoslovak) Sq. RAF
http://312.jinak.cz

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:48 PM
There is a very simple reason that people in the west know little about the eastern front and that's the fact that there was almost no information of any kind exchanged with the west for many, many years. I was in school before peristroyka (spelling??) and so, in that time, we had no good contact with people between Japan and West Germany.

The Berlin wall stopped more than people... it stopped information too.

Fact: The more high-perfomance any vehicle becomes (plane, car, etc.), the more difficult to handle and the less forgiving it is. In real life, if it's easy to handle and forgiving of mistakes, it's just not capable of high-performance because the traits that make it stable and easy to handle are the same traits that prevent it from reaching the extremes of performance.

A perfect example is the 190-D series. Very fast, rolls with simply a thought... and if you make a mistake with it then it bleeds badly and, if you're too low or slow, then you're dead. This is as it should be. Another good example is the Yak3, which can do great things but only if you're paying attention to what you're doing and don't use too much stick.

The way the La5FN is modeled, it's as forgiving as a training plane. It's SO MUCH more smooth and easy when compared to any other plane, Axis or Allied, that nothing else feels even close when on the stick. And yet it can still out perform most of the other planes? That goes against common sense.

Side note:
To those who use terms like "your mother", "suck", etc.: Go back to the playground and leave this discussion to adults who can discuss things without childish insults. Flame all you want, you're blubbering is ignored.

S!
OG_Vorlin

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 05:37 PM
pipgig wrote:
- hahahaha the LAs with bad forward visibility.
-
- now taht was good!
-
- Letz do open up a thread with: Oleg pls fix the LAs
- forward visibility.
-
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif just great /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
-
- cant u just stop whinning
-

Let's look at this picture:
http://device.dyndns.org/wt/pictures/grab0001.jpg
(I did everything to reduce it's size... but anyways, both planes in level flight)

Like I said, the La-5 reticle is big, La-7 reticle is small.
To me the La-5 has ok visibility, the La-7 has a bit worse visibility than La-5. I'd think La-5 could be used for deflection shooting with moderate succes, but I'd be harder in La-7.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on the visibility issue of the Lavochkins pigpig (Other mature and intelligent persons welcome as well), as you seem mature and intelligent person to talk to.

After that I want you to quote the line where someone whines about the visibility in one of the last 10 replies or so, and right after that you can define the termn "whinning" as you understand it, to me.

I'm positive we're going to have a great and heart-warming reply from you pigpig, along with others I hope, later on!

(I don't understand why I'm doing this... "I want to hear what he says next"...)

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 06:17 PM
OG_Vorlin wrote:
- There is a very simple reason that people in the
- west know little about the eastern front and that's
- the fact that there was almost no information of any
- kind exchanged with the west for many, many years. I
- was in school before peristroyka (spelling??) and
- so, in that time, we had no good contact with people
- between Japan and West Germany.
-
- The Berlin wall stopped more than people... it
- stopped information too.
-
- Fact: The more high-perfomance any vehicle becomes
- (plane, car, etc.), the more difficult to handle and
- the less forgiving it is. In real life, if it's easy
- to handle and forgiving of mistakes, it's just not
- capable of high-performance because the traits that
- make it stable and easy to handle are the same
- traits that prevent it from reaching the extremes of
- performance.
-
- A perfect example is the 190-D series. Very fast,
- rolls with simply a thought... and if you make a
- mistake with it then it bleeds badly and, if you're
- too low or slow, then you're dead. This is as it
- should be. Another good example is the Yak3, which
- can do great things but only if you're paying
- attention to what you're doing and don't use too
- much stick.
-
- The way the La5FN is modeled, it's as forgiving as a
- training plane. It's SO MUCH more smooth and easy
- when compared to any other plane, Axis or Allied,
- that nothing else feels even close when on the
- stick. And yet it can still out perform most of the
- other planes? That goes against common sense.
-
-
-
- S!
- OG_Vorlin
-

Good post!
-

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 06:26 PM
Due to the fact that the gunsight was placed as high as it was, aiming through it was close to impossible. Therefore La-5 pilots were forced to fly with open cockpits whenever in a combat situation. Significantly reducing its topspeed.

http://www.iownjoo.com/freeimghost/robban75/Dora-9-3.JPG


'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 06:44 PM
yes my name is PIPGIG not PIGPIG, but thats ok./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

yes you are right the La7 have worser forward view then the la5s becouse it looks like it have an other type of revi installed that blocks more the forward view.

but again first it was the talking about the 190 that it have a very bad forward view and now to say the LAs have also bad vorward view looked very funy to me.
I wish i would see also the nose of the 190 like in la7 not even like in la5.

and when i was saying to stop whining around i wasnt mean you or somebody special.
but there are no facts no dates no real Informations no pictures no evidenc nothing like this taht would proof taht the La5FN is not correct modelled now and its undermodelled and its a duck now.

The la5FN have 1 of the best forward view in FB and its not a secret taht it had not realy much a better view forward then the FW190.

Its also maybe the best plane in 43 servers. in 44 u can switch to the La7 and u are again in one of the best planes. Your 3xB20 cannons will rip apart all what is flying even P47s and FW190.

Let me also tell you the 109s got also worser then in 1.0 now it also stalls more quicker then befor also the D9.
it looks to me taht all planes are more sensitive now and need more gently and attention to fly then back in 1.0.
The 190 turns now faster at high speed But u still can out turn em with the LAs. And at low speed 190 is still a brick to fly, and thats just how it realy was.

But nobody is forced to set all to full real there is a very large setting option.
I also fly 190 most of the time with cockpit off.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:01 PM
BTW you should once push Shift F1 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif may that would solve your probleme a little bit /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:04 PM
http://device.dyndns.org/wt/pictures/grab0001.jpg

lol, how can anyone compare this visibility to the 190's?!

in pure lift vector gunnery it would be as bad in the 7, but there's still a hell of a lot more visibility for slightly off lift vector visibility when you compare it to the 190.

http://www3.telus.net/ice51/taipans/tpn_bard.jpg (http://taipans.dyndns.org)

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:24 PM
robban75 wrote:
- Due to the fact that the gunsight was placed as high
- as it was, aiming through it was close to
- impossible. Therefore La-5 pilots were forced to fly
- with open cockpits whenever in a combat situation.
- Significantly reducing its topspeed.
-

What does an open canopy have to do with the placement of the gunsight? The gunsight view is forward not to the side and upwards./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The Russians had trouble with the glazing turning yellow and possibly 'crinkling' when exposed to sunlight, that is why the canopy as removed. There was also the fact that many VVS pilots were weened on open cockpits, as in other AFs, and felt clausterphobic, as well as they flew by the sound of the air around the airframe. Add in the fact that if there was some combat damage, the canopy could not be opened so the pilot could not bailout.

---------

pipgig. The Russians did not use German Revi gunsights./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif They used a PBP-1B in the La-7 and a PBP-1A in the La-5. By Revi you mean gunsight, do you not?

-------

wT, nice to see someone posting F1 views./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Both the Revis and PBPs had 60mm wide reflector glass (afaik). The question is why the Fw's reflector glass is smaller than the La-5s when the La-5's pilot sat further back and lower from the gunsight.

For those that doubt this, visit http://www.aviacherteg.narod.ru/avia/Drawings/WWII/
and d/l the drawings. With some extra work, using a program such as PSP, one can superimpose the section drawings. Set the reference point as the centre of the reflector glass.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 08:05 PM
pipgig wrote:
- yes my name is PIPGIG not PIGPIG, but thats ok./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- yes you are right the La7 have worser forward view
- then the la5s becouse it looks like it have an other
- type of revi installed that blocks more the forward
- view.
-
- but again first it was the talking about the 190
- that it have a very bad forward view and now to say
- the LAs have also bad vorward view looked very funy
- to me.
- I wish i would see also the nose of the 190 like in
- la7 not even like in la5.
-
- and when i was saying to stop whining around i wasnt
- mean you or somebody special.
- but there are no facts no dates no real Informations
- no pictures no evidenc nothing like this taht would
- proof taht the La5FN is not correct modelled now and
- its undermodelled and its a duck now.
-
- The la5FN have 1 of the best forward view in FB and
- its not a secret taht it had not realy much a better
- view forward then the FW190.
-
- Its also maybe the best plane in 43 servers. in 44 u
- can switch to the La7 and u are again in one of the
- best planes. Your 3xB20 cannons will rip apart all
- what is flying even P47s and FW190.
-
- Let me also tell you the 109s got also worser then
- in 1.0 now it also stalls more quicker then befor
- also the D9.
- it looks to me taht all planes are more sensitive
- now and need more gently and attention to fly then
- back in 1.0.
- The 190 turns now faster at high speed But u still
- can out turn em with the LAs. And at low speed 190
- is still a brick to fly, and thats just how it realy
- was.
-
- But nobody is forced to set all to full real there
- is a very large setting option.
- I also fly 190 most of the time with cockpit off.
-

Ok I have to apologize. I think I misjudged you a bit, and I have to say that I never ever compared the visibility of either Lavochkins to any other plane in the game.
I was just making a note that the visibility is ok in La-5, but more worse in La-7. I think deflection shooting is hard in the La-7 because of it's visibility, but I never said it was harder/easier than in any other plane in the game.

But I understand why you found it funny, and you can't be sure who's talking to who here, and I totally agree that plain whinning that either Lavochkin is bad right now, is just ridiculous.


TPN_Bard wrote:
- ----IMAGE----
-
- lol, how can anyone compare this visibility to the
- 190's?!
-
- in pure lift vector gunnery it would be as bad in
- the 7, but there's still a hell of a lot more
- visibility for slightly off lift vector visibility
- when you compare it to the 190.
-

I never said I compared it to anything. You're taking it out of the context.
Like you said, the reticle are is small and blocks the view, although it's better than in the FW190, but it's still not the best in the game.

This was my point. If the 190 has bad visibility, it hardly means no-cockpit view in every other plane.



Message Edited on 08/18/0310:09PM by wT-

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 08:59 PM
OG Vorlin wrote:
The more high performance any vehicle becomes [plane,car,etc] the more difficult to handle and the less
forgiving it is.

Dude you don't make sense on your post. I have no idea
Where you have got your thoughts.But I've got the idea
who you are.
I'm not a real pilot but I've got high performance car.And
it is so easy to handle and you can't even imagine how
forgiving it is.
Please think hard before you post any thing.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 09:43 PM
I'm not a real pilot but I've got high performance
- car.And
-
- it is so easy to handle and you can't even imagine
- how
-
- forgiving it is.
-
- Please think hard before you post any thing.
-

Wrong !

Compare how much technological evolution went into it, how much testing, how many years of design, test,redesign and pre-releases went inot your car.

I'll compare it to a Sports car like, let's say Porsche GT3.

I'll say so much. Sit into it, push the gas to the limit and then tell me it's forgiving. You'll be spinning your tail faster than in you ford....Trust me on this.

Never compare the so called sports stuff for "general" market. It's not comparable. In order to match the things meant in the post earlier you'd need to compare cars from Formula 1.
Take a ride and then come back and say they'Re as forgiving as your so called sports car...

It's a fact that you need to beat physics. Physics have barriers.....
Whole military design is a compromise....

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 12:33 AM
I think you're all just whiners /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif , but thats just my opinion.

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 08:34 PM
You've got the wrong car or you just don't have anough
experience.For example take GT3000 VR4 and you will have
no problems pushing it to the limit ,even if you have no
experience at all.Plus it is super forgiving at high
speeds,low speeds,rain and snow also in any kind of turns.
Dude I think you and your friend are wrong.

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 12:44 AM
JFW wrote:

- Or maybe Maddox made it adhere to a few actual laws
- of fluid dynamics.



Now that is a to the point comment, nice one JFW.