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Crash_Moses
06-08-2006, 06:58 AM
Okay, Gents. I need some feedback from all you level bombing afficianados.

I've been working on a comprehensive level bombing guide for the B-25/PBJ and I think my bombing tables are pretty dang accurate. (Okay, they are scary accurate. Amazing accurate. They are "you won't believe how accurate they are" accurate).

But in the land of IL-2/PF things are never quite like they seem so I thought I'd enlist the help of some New Guinea pigs (Ha! Get it?) to verify my accuracy before I make the entire guide available.

What follows is an edited version of my bombing table instructions followed by the chart for a bomb run at 10,000ft. If some of y'all would be so kind as to set up a mission in the FMB to test the chart I truly would appreciate the feedback (positive, negative, or other).

I used object 177 and a fishing boat for my initial testing and I'd be happy to e-mail the mission to anyone who asks. Just PM me your e-mail address and I'll get it out to ya.

Posted this in the PF forum as well but it's been awfully quiet over there of late. Not sure how to link the two...

Well, here it is...don't be too hard on me... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!
-------------------------------------------------------------
DETAILED INSTRUCTIONS FOR USE OF THE BOMBING TABLES

1. Engage level stabilizer. I like to engage the level stabilizer once I€m 50 to 100 feet above my target altitude. It€s much easier to adjust your altitude down using elevator trim than it is to climb.

Remember that the level stabilizer is not an autopilot (so don€t confuse it with the Toggle Level Autopilot command. They are not the same thing!) The level stabilizer will keep the B-25/PBJ straight and level so you want to make sure you€re pointed in the general direction of your target before you engage it.

2. Set Flaps. Flaps are sometimes required because at high altitudes and/or low speeds the B-25/PBJ is too heavy to maintain altitude otherwise.

An interesting historical note: The fuel pickup in the B-25/PBJ fuel tanks was too high to get all the fuel in the tanks (to the tune of about 40 gallons). Pilots would often fly with 1/4 flaps in order to use the remaining fuel and thus extend the aircraft€s€ range.

3. Verify throttle and prop pitch settings. I recommend setting these as soon as you reach altitude to give the plane time to settle.

Find the chart that matches your altitude, fuel level and payload and change your throttle and prop pitch accordingly.

For instance: If you€re going to drop ordinance from 10,000ft with 50% fuel and 4x500lbs bombs you would set your throttle to 74 and your prop pitch to 90. If your fuel level falls between two columns then use the settings for the nearest one (i.e. if you have 60% fuel then use the 50% fuel column).

NOTE: Some rows are split into two different variables. The upper numbers indicate the optimum setting. The lower numbers are a compromise for those who don€t have trim mapped to a knob or slider.

4. Center your rudder. At this point you should be headed more or less towards the target. Use your rudder trim to center the ball.

Important! Neutralize your trim before you take off! Your trim is not automatically centered when you start the game (I suspect this has something to do with joystick calibration). You must map keys to the Rudder Trim Neutral and Elevator Trim Neutral commands. If you don€t do this the trim settings in the bombing tables will not work! Once you€ve done this it takes 20-22 clicks of right rudder trim to center the ball (Engine torque is the deciding factor here).

5. Adjust your altitude. Use your elevator trim to adjust your altitude. Positive elevator trim will make the plane sink and negative elevator trim will make it climb.

How I do it: The best way is to start 50 to 100 feet above your target altitude. Apply slight positive elevator trim until you start to sink. I let my altitude dip slightly below my target altitude and then I apply full negative elevator trim until the needle climbs to the exact (exact!) altitude I want.

Now adjust the trim according to the Elev column in the bombing chart. Negative elevator trim makes the aircraft climb and positive elevator trim makes it sink.

There are three trim starting reference points. FP indicates full positive elevator trim, FN indicates full negative elevator trim, and N indicates the neutral position.

Use the keyboard (or HOTAS knob/slider) to reach full negative or full positive trim. You€ll know you€ve reached the limit when the control column stops moving. For neutral just hit the neutral elevator trim key. Once you€ve done this just tap the relevant trim key the required number of times.

For example: Using my previous example of 10,000ft, 50% fuel and 4x500lb bombs the Elev column gives me FP+37. Adjust your elevator trim to full positive and then hit the Elevator Trim Positive key 37 times.

Note: Depending on how far you are from the target you may have to adjust your trim slightly as time passes. Just keep an eye on it and if the plane starts to sink or climb adjust your elevator trim one or two clicks at a time to compensate.

6. Program the bombsight. If you haven€t done so already enter your altitude and TAS into the Norden.

I like to do this before I take off but it can be anytime before you drop your ordinance. It€s just easier to do it early and not have to worry about it. This can be done from the pilot€s seat so sometimes I€ll do it on the climb out.

Use the key mapped to Increase Sight altitude to...guess...increase sight altitude! Use Decrease Sight Altitude to decrease it. Use Increase Sight Velocity and Decrease Sight Velocity to adjust your TAS setting which is under the box marked €œTAS€ in the bombing chart.

Remember to allow for the height of your target above sea level. If your target is on a hill or mountain you may have to do a recon flight beforehand in order to determine the correct altitude. If your intelligence officer is any good he€ll have some relief maps with altitude markings provided before the mission but chances are yer just gonna hafta be a good guesser...

7. Line up on the target. Jump into cockpit #2 and hit the Toggle Gunsight key. You should see the bombsight and a view of the ground below. If not just wait a bit. The bombsight won€t kick on if the plane is still unstable. Use the Increase Sight Distance key to increase the bombsight angle. If you were paying attention in navigation class you should see your target ahead (hopefully far enough away to make some adjustments).

It€s doubtful you€ve managed to point the plane straight at the target but hopefully you€re not more than four or five degrees off. Use your rudder trim to swing the plane left or right to line the crosshairs up on the target. The farther you are away the faster the crosshairs will seem to move so it€s best to adjust early. If you wait too long the plane won€t be able to turn fast enough to line you up. If you can€t see the target directly pick a landmark you know is close (a river or lake perhaps). You did study the map before the mission didn€t you? Didn€t you?!

Once you can see the target raise and/or lower the bombsight angle to keep the target centered. Adjust the rudder trim right or left as needed. If you were smart and used my keypad layout you can make all your bombsight adjustments with just three fingers of one hand. At this point the only keys you should need to press are the rudder trim keys, the sight distance (angle) keys, and the toggle sight mode key.

Note: This is the point of no return. You are officially on your bomb run. You cannot stop. No matter what happens you must not lose sight of the target. Neither enemy fighters, flak, nor an engine fire is reason enough to stop. You will either deliver your ordinance or die trying. Mission accomplishment before troop welfare! Attack!

8. Automatic bombing. Verify your altitude and TAS settings and as soon as you have the target under your cross hairs press the toggle sight mode key. The bombsight should begin tracking the target. Please note that the crosshairs indicate where the first set of bombs will hit. If you want to pickle the target with multiple bombs you should place the crosshairs so the bombs release just before the crosshairs reach the target.

If the bombsight settings are correct the bombsight should begin to creep down slowly. This is normal. As you approach the target the bombsight will begin to slow and eventually stop moving. This happens a few seconds before the bombs release so you€ll have to make some adjustments to keep the crosshairs on target. There are two methods you can use:

Method 1: Disengage the bombsight by hitting the toggle sight mode key and then reengage when the crosshairs are over the target. This can be tricky so it€s best to wait until the crosshairs have crept down a bit. You may have to do this a couple of times before the bombsight begins tracking correctly. As always practice is wise.

Method 2: Use the Increase and Decrease Sight Velocity keys to keep the crosshairs centered. You can change the bombsight velocity without disengaging the bombsight. Decreasing the velocity will cause the crosshairs to creep up and increasing the velocity will cause the crosshairs to creep down. I€ve found this method to be a little more accurate but it€s still easy to make an adjustment too late and accidentally drop your bombs. I don€t recommend using this method above 12,000 ft. Small changes have a big effect at high altitudes and you€ll end up releasing your ordinance before you want to.

9. Manual Bombing. Find the Manual Bombing Angle (MBA) on the bomb chart, line up with the target, set the bombsight angle using the Increase/Decrease Sight Distance keys and when the target passes under the crosshairs drop your ordinance (yelling €œPICKLE!€ is optional).

Manual bombing isn€t as accurate as using the automatic mode but it is fun. It€s also handy when you have several targets separated by more than a few hundred feet. You can spread your ordinance over a larger area by manual bombing. When manual bombing you use the same angle for all settings at a certain altitude but you still need to set your prop. pitch and throttle according to your payload. You should also try and drop your ordinance just a wee bit before the crosshairs cover the target to account for that second between thought and action. I don€t recommend manual bombing at high altitudes.

NOTE: Here's a little trick that will make manual bombing a little easier. Make sure your bombsight angle is 0 (pointed straight down) and when you are ready to release your bombs just hit the Toggle Sight Mode key (the key that turns the bombsight on and off). All your bombs will drop at once and you don't have to keep pounding the fire button when dropping multiple bombs.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y125/Crash_Moses/bombingtables2.gif

VonKlugermon
06-08-2006, 07:58 AM
Impressive work! I like the fact you have calculated the various load-outs, the chart I currently use only works for 500 and 1,000 lbs.

Critique: I go for simplicity, the easier the better! Right now I rarely utilize automatic bombing. Manual allows for mutltiple targets and to me is just more fun. Utilizing the same throttle/pitch settings across the board also makes things easier. I go for 90% on both and then trim up the plane, no matter what the altitude, then speed and bomb angle are the only variables to set in the bomb sight. (I always utilize 50% fuel load and rarely run out of fuel) Once that is done, final line up on the target with rudder trim.

Willy

Crash_Moses
06-08-2006, 08:29 AM
Oh yeah, I definitely threw the "keep it simple, stupid" credo out the window. I'll add a disclaimer: NOT for the casual simmer. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But that was my intent. I was frustrated with the bombsight bug (which, I can say without question, has nothing to do with converting to knots or anything like that) and I wanted a chart that would let me make pinpoint drops. And working on the assumption that each TAS had a "sweetspot" I just started experimenting. I've been able to consistently sink fishing boats from 20,000ft (although I think I'll stop the chart around 14,000 or 16,000ft).

I have noticed though that at higher altitudes (working on 12,000ft now) that moving the prop pitch in increments of 10 isn't working as well as at lower altitude. Anybody know of a way for those without their prop pitch on a wheel to adjust their prop pitch via keyboard?

I'd hate to exclude the majority of simmers who I'm sure don't use PP enough to justify assigning it to a wheel or slider.

But yeah, I love manual bombing too. Great for taking out those pesky ships that are spaced just a little too far apart. But the chart works for that too...heck, that was the easy part!

Thanks for the feedback. S!

Crash_Moses
06-08-2006, 11:03 AM
bumpity http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VonKlugermon
06-08-2006, 12:41 PM
20,000 feet? Now your talking! Post your chart for that altitude and I'll be glad to use it! (15,000 has been my maximum!)

Willy

StellarRat
06-08-2006, 12:51 PM
Not to downplay all your hardwork, but wasn't the Norden bombsight automatic? Why wouldn't you take advantage of that? I have no problem hitting and runway ramps with it from 17,000 or more.

justiceboy
06-08-2006, 02:12 PM
It's a shame that the b-24 doesn't have in cockpit as well as all the other b-25s and b-17 and b29. Although we got a fella in our squad that can smack the tarmac at 24,000 ft in a b-24 so who needs the sights. We just autolevel and wait for his call on when to drop. he's got it down.

Crash_Moses
06-08-2006, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by StellarRat:
Not to downplay all your hardwork, but wasn't the Norden bombsight automatic? Why wouldn't you take advantage of that? I have no problem hitting and runway ramps with it from 17,000 or more.

Why yes it was and I have. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The chart works for both automatic and manual bombing (read the destructions http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif) and, in fact, is a little more accurate using the automatic method. How about hitting a truck on the ramp? I kid you not...

Crash_Moses
06-08-2006, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by VonKlugermon:
20,000 feet? Now your talking! Post your chart for that altitude and I'll be glad to use it! (15,000 has been my maximum!)

Willy

Roger that! As soon as I finish it I'll put it up!

AWL_Spinner
06-08-2006, 02:58 PM
Impressive work!

You've gone about it a completely different way to what I attempted many moons ago (in my sig) with the B25 chart. I shall certainly be having a go with yours and look forward to the higher alt one! Not working on one for the Pe-2 are you by any chance?

Level bombing rocks.

Kernow
06-08-2006, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by AWL_Spinner:
Impressive work!

You've gone about it a completely different way to what I attempted many moons ago (in my sig) with the B25 chart. I shall certainly be having a go with yours and look forward to the higher alt one! Not working on one for the Pe-2 are you by any chance?

Level bombing rocks.

got a dive-bombing method for the Pe-2 which works very accurately without the need to get too close to the target or dive very steeply. In RL a steep dive is obviously very good, but without the 'seat of the pants' feel in the game it's very hard to tell if your wings are level or not once the horizon is out of the view. I find this can make dive-bombing less than pin-point accurate, especially if you roll into the dive rather than bunt. Easier to tell where the wings are in a shallower dive.

In a 45 degree dive, at 600 kph TAS and from 700 m the bomb will land at the point under the outer ring on the PBP-1b gunsight (6 o'clock, naturally).

Approach at 3000 m.

To get right angle start dive just before target reaches horizontal frame in nose glazing just above rudder pedals (or use bombsight set to 45 degrees as a guide).

Cut power, nose over and put target under aiming point. Keep ball centred with right trim about 15 taps I think (really ought to work out exactly how many taps are needed, then could set up at top of dive).

As 700 m is approached speed will be about right (no need for dive-brakes). Drop at 700 m and pull out. Accurate enough to sink a ship - even a moving one; only takes 5 secs for bombs to fall the 700 m.

Crash_Moses
06-08-2006, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by AWL_Spinner:
Impressive work!

You've gone about it a completely different way to what I attempted many moons ago (in my sig) with the B25 chart. I shall certainly be having a go with yours and look forward to the higher alt one! Not working on one for the Pe-2 are you by any chance?

Level bombing rocks.

Look who's talking! I broke my teeth on your guide. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

But wait till ya see the full guide. I think you'll like it.

Actually, I'd like to tackle all the bombers eventually but I'll probably do the Betty next and then the PE-2.

And yes, level bombing ROCKS!

S!

Crash_Moses
06-08-2006, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Kernow:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AWL_Spinner:
Impressive work!

You've gone about it a completely different way to what I attempted many moons ago (in my sig) with the B25 chart. I shall certainly be having a go with yours and look forward to the higher alt one! Not working on one for the Pe-2 are you by any chance?

Level bombing rocks.

got a dive-bombing method for the Pe-2 which works very accurately without the need to get too close to the target or dive very steeply. In RL a steep dive is obviously very good, but without the 'seat of the pants' feel in the game it's very hard to tell if your wings are level or not once the horizon is out of the view. I find this can make dive-bombing less than pin-point accurate, especially if you roll into the dive rather than bunt. Easier to tell where the wings are in a shallower dive.

In a 45 degree dive, at 600 kph TAS and from 700 m the bomb will land at the point under the outer ring on the PBP-1b gunsight (6 o'clock, naturally).

Approach at 3000 m.

To get right angle start dive just before target reaches horizontal frame in nose glazing just above rudder pedals (or use bombsight set to 45 degrees as a guide).

Cut power, nose over and put target under aiming point. Keep ball centred with right trim about 15 taps I think (really ought to work out exactly how many taps are needed, then could set up at top of dive).

As 700 m is approached speed will be about right (no need for dive-brakes). Drop at 700 m and pull out. Accurate enough to sink a ship - even a moving one; only takes 5 secs for bombs to fall the 700 m. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll give that a try Kernow. I'm pretty good in the SBD and Val but the PE-2 has been giving me fits when dive bombing.

Thanks!

Crash_Moses
06-08-2006, 09:52 PM
Bedtime bump. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Crash_Moses
06-09-2006, 07:41 AM
Coffee bump. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Crash_Moses
06-09-2006, 11:34 AM
Lunch bunch bump.

Crash_Moses
06-09-2006, 05:08 PM
Just got home from work winding down bump.

Coming soon: the weekend bump!

Crash_Moses
06-09-2006, 09:13 PM
They call me MISTER Bumpy...

Crash_Moses
06-10-2006, 07:27 AM
Weekend warrior bump

Kernow
06-10-2006, 03:21 PM
You see what your problem is CM and why there's a need for all the bumps? You've actually posted something useful for IN-GAME and wanted some feedback from people who might try it out. Problem is, not too many round 'ere actually play the game AND post lots. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Anticipating the tables for other alts... and bump.

MOH_Magoo
06-10-2006, 05:17 PM
Gents..

I don't totally understand the need for all these charts unless you like to manual bomb.

The built in bomb sight in the B25 for auto bomb works very well if the TAS and altitude are inputted correctly. I just use the gauges in the bombadier position for altitufe and the faster needle on the speed gauge for TAS.

I have hit single ships from 14,000 feet several times in online games.

So, if you really want to keep it simple use the built in auto bomb feature and you will get hits.

MagOO

Crash_Moses
06-10-2006, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by Kernow:
You see what your problem is CM and why there's a need for all the bumps? You've actually posted something useful for IN-GAME and wanted some feedback from people who might try it out. Problem is, not too many round 'ere actually play the game AND post lots. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Anticipating the tables for other alts... and bump.

lol...I'm just fishing for compliments. And I'm stubborn.

But seriously, you're right. Thus the bumps. Figured I'd try to keep it up top for the real pilots who only stop by occasionaly (dang...what's that say about me?).

I'll probably keep it up top through the weekend to catch the weekend warriors. Sometimes it just takes the right person posting for a topic to take off.

After that I'll probably just post the tables as I finish them (12,000ft is almost finished). Figured I'd do 20,000ft next (I thought I was the only one who liked to climb that high...go figure).

Thanks for the feedback. S!

Crash_Moses
06-10-2006, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by MOH_Magoo:
Gents..

I don't totally understand the need for all these charts unless you like to manual bomb.

The built in bomb sight in the B25 for auto bomb works very well if the TAS and altitude are inputted correctly. I just use the gauges in the bombadier position for altitufe and the faster needle on the speed gauge for TAS.

I have hit single ships from 14,000 feet several times in online games.

So, if you really want to keep it simple use the built in auto bomb feature and you will get hits.

MagOO

lol...I don't want it to be simple, I want it to be accurate (you should see my earlier drafts. Holy wah! Variables out the wazoo).

Actually, I created the chart specifically for auto bombing. Manual bombing just requires knowing the angle required at a certain speed and altitude. If that were the case the chart would be much smaller.

But you're right, the normal method is sufficient for the casual simmer. It's far from perfect however, and the B-25 bombing bug can make it an excercise in frustration. The only consistent way to take out a ship is to approach it lengthwise which isn't always practical. Approaching ships from any other angle results in a miss more often than not. And mission objectives aren't always floating on the water. AA covering an airfield is especially hard to hit from high altitudes.

Also, because of the bug, the TAS indicator in the bombadier station isn't much use. At 14,000ft with an indicated airspeed of 189MPH the TAS indicator reads about 240 MPH. If you enter that into the bombsight you're gonna miss. By a lot. Like a gazillion. The correct TAS for the bombsight at that speed and altitude is 220. And even if you adjust the bombsight velocity until it's tracking the target you're not guaranteed a hit as it tracks equally well with a TAS of 210 (until you get real close...very easy to fall into that trap).

It's just not accurate enough for me. These are precision bombing charts. Precision, I tell you! They're intended for the diehard bomber jocks with a small basement office and a locked door to keep out small children (and someday I'll have one!). Using these charts I can hit a ship from 14,000ft everytime without fail. Big ships and small ships. Especially small ships. AA, trucks, tanks, those annoying toy poodles that bark all the time...you name it.

Set up a test mission at 14,000ft (don't forget to engage level 2 supercharger) with a fishing boat as the target and a loadout of 2000lb bombs. Try it your way and then try it with these settings:

71 throttle
90 prop pitch
Max your negative elevator trim and then apply 20 clicks of positive elevator trim (keeps ya from sinking).

Your TAS in No Cockpit View should be 387 (you might have to throttle up and then back down a couple times to get it to stabalize at that speed). Your bombsight TAS is 220.

Be happy to send you my test mission or a track if you prefer. If you follow my destructions I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!

HellToupee
06-10-2006, 10:46 PM
Using the TAS from the speed dials results in my bombs landing no where near target ive generally used the fiddle with site till it tracks method + guestimation which i fell fairly confident of hitting a carrier length ways at like 15000ft or just using settings ive loosely tested myself.

Buf i will definiaty use a precision table when suitable especially in a b25, where as flying a ju88 with those big 2000kgers precision dosnt seem to matter so much.

AWL_Spinner
06-11-2006, 02:41 AM
Using the TAS from the speed dials results in my bombs landing no where near target

That's because there's an in game bug with the B25 bombsight.

Although it tells you it's taking TAS in MPH is actually taking TAS in Knots (a lower figure, and not represented on the cockpit dials, which anyway show IAS?).

Hence the need for community input.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kernow
06-11-2006, 06:07 AM
Originally posted by AWL_Spinner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Using the TAS from the speed dials results in my bombs landing no where near target

That's because there's an in game bug with the B25 bombsight.

Although it tells you it's taking TAS in MPH is actually taking TAS in Knots (a lower figure, and not represented on the cockpit dials, which anyway show IAS?).

Hence the need for community input.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is true is it? I had heard it before, but wasn't certain.

I was generally an auto bomber and could usually do quite well, but would sometimes get no result when I felt sure everything was running on rails during the bomb run. I think this thread has pretty much shown me the reasons for the odd 'strange' bomb.

You may be right about the bombsight and kts; it would (almost) explain everything. 387 kph is 241 mph - as shown by the bombardier's TAS needle - but that is only 210 kts and not 220... Still, that is pretty close and is better than using mph TAS.

Second stage supercharger critical alt for the B-25 is just over 13000 ft, so that's where you get best speed for your power. I normally bomb around that alt. Not that I'm going to outrun any opposition, but I might as well give myself a decent chance. As I find you need almost full power to maintain level with the auto level above this height, I don't go above 12000 ft when leading a formation. That way I can hold level while cruising at no more than 75% (ideally 65%), which gives followers some sort of chance to close up and maintain formation. The 12000 ft table ought to be especially useful.

Crash_Moses
06-11-2006, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by Kernow:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AWL_Spinner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Using the TAS from the speed dials results in my bombs landing no where near target

That's because there's an in game bug with the B25 bombsight.

Although it tells you it's taking TAS in MPH is actually taking TAS in Knots (a lower figure, and not represented on the cockpit dials, which anyway show IAS?).

Hence the need for community input.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is true is it? I had heard it before, but wasn't certain.

I was generally an auto bomber and could usually do quite well, but would sometimes get no result when I felt sure everything was running on rails during the bomb run. I think this thread has pretty much shown me the reasons for the odd 'strange' bomb.

You may be right about the bombsight and kts; it would (almost) explain everything. 387 kph is 241 mph - as shown by the bombardier's TAS needle - but that is only 210 kts and not 220... Still, that is pretty close and is better than using mph TAS.

Second stage supercharger critical alt for the B-25 is just over 13000 ft, so that's where you get best speed for your power. I normally bomb around that alt. Not that I'm going to outrun any opposition, but I might as well give myself a decent chance. As I find you need almost full power to maintain level with the auto level above this height, I don't go above 12000 ft when leading a formation. That way I can hold level while cruising at no more than 75% (ideally 65%), which gives followers some sort of chance to close up and maintain formation. The 12000 ft table ought to be especially useful. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spinner, the airspeed indicator in the bombadier position shows IAS and TAS. There are two needles.

But I don't think knots have anything to do with the bug. In fact, I tried early on to correlate the TAS with knots and just couldn't do it. On the spreadsheet I use for testing I have a few extra cells dedicated to determining the percentage difference between the bombsight TAS and the indicated TAS and there doesn't seem to be any sort of pattern. Even subtracting 10% from the TAS and entering the result into the bombsight isn't accurate.

I'm not sure what the bug is. I was hoping some sort of pattern would emerge as I did my tests but I haven't found anything (a few general patterns but nothing consistent). Maybe when I do the Betty I'll find some mathematical correlation. The world may never know...

Kernow, I hit the second stage supercharger at about 8,900ft. In fact, my tables depend on it. The PF readme says to switch at 2700m (8,850ft). Has something changed via the patches? I don't wanna hafta redo my tables.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

Thanks, guys! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif This is the kind of feedback I was looking for. Just need to make sure I'm on the right track.

S!

AWL_Spinner
06-11-2006, 09:17 AM
I'm not sure what the bug is. I was hoping some sort of pattern would emerge as I did my tests but I haven't found anything (a few general patterns but nothing consistent).

Obviously it's not 100% as the increment is "only" in 10mph/kt/whateverthehell increments unlike the more sensitive dial in the Pe-2 (say) but yes, using the auto sight on the B25 I have very accurate results using a TAS correction in Knots for a given IAS in MPH.

It certainly ain't TAS MPH!

HellToupee
06-11-2006, 09:21 AM
But I don't think knots have anything to do with the bug. In fact, I tried early

no i dont belive its knots as this also applies to the ju88 and other bombers, my tested drops settings vs tas does not match, the fact its close to knots on the b25 is more coincidence.

AWL_Spinner
06-11-2006, 09:25 AM
the fact its close to knots on the b25 is more coincidence

Yup, it's quite possibly coincidence, but at the altitudes and IAS range you tend (well, I tend*) to be in in a B25, dialing in Kts TAS is a near perfect bug correction within the limits of such a coarsely incremented TAS dial.

*12-15,000ft and 190-210mph IAS range. Can't speak for anything outside that, I try never to be lower.

PS. Where do you B25 flyers tend to operate online? It's always good to get a formation going on a decent objective based server. I've been pretty much exclusively ADW for the past month or two (no B25s on that yet, still in a 1942 rotation)

PPS. For superchargers, manifold pressure guages are your friends. I dunno, switch alt may even vary from map to map with regard to the ambient temp (like overheating characteristic do).

Kernow
06-11-2006, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by Crash_Moses:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kernow:
Second stage supercharger critical alt for the B-25 is just over 13000 ft, so that's where you get best speed for your power.

Kernow, I hit the second stage supercharger at about 8,900ft. In fact, my tables depend on it. The PF readme says to switch at 2700m (8,850ft). Has something changed via the patches? I don't wanna hafta redo my tables.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's right; I also change s/c at somewhere around 8500 ft. Critical alt is where you get best performance. It's where all the energy taken from the engine by the s/c is used to compress the incoming air and none is wasted. Below this alt the s/c could overboost the engine, so some of the extra pressure gets 'dumped' (not exactly sure of the mechanism for this, but it does represent a waste of some energy). At crit alt all of the pressure rise the s/c can deliver is delivered and above it the MAP will start to reduce.

The 'WEP' on some of the in-game Merlins is in fact the removal of this safety mechanism (boost control) by pulling the 'boost control cut-out' switch.

Crash_Moses
06-11-2006, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Kernow:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crash_Moses:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kernow:
Second stage supercharger critical alt for the B-25 is just over 13000 ft, so that's where you get best speed for your power.

Kernow, I hit the second stage supercharger at about 8,900ft. In fact, my tables depend on it. The PF readme says to switch at 2700m (8,850ft). Has something changed via the patches? I don't wanna hafta redo my tables.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's right; I also change s/c at somewhere around 8500 ft. Critical alt is where you get best performance. It's where all the energy taken from the engine by the s/c is used to compress the incoming air and none is wasted. Below this alt the s/c could overboost the engine, so some of the extra pressure gets 'dumped' (not exactly sure of the mechanism for this, but it does represent a waste of some energy). At crit alt all of the pressure rise the s/c can deliver is delivered and above it the MAP will start to reduce.

The 'WEP' on some of the in-game Merlins is in fact the removal of this safety mechanism (boost control) by pulling the 'boost control cut-out' switch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whew! That's a relief. Ya had me worried there... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Crash_Moses
06-11-2006, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by AWL_Spinner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the fact its close to knots on the b25 is more coincidence

Yup, it's quite possibly coincidence, but at the altitudes and IAS range you tend (well, I tend*) to be in in a B25, dialing in Kts TAS is a near perfect bug correction within the limits of such a coarsely incremented TAS dial.

*12-15,000ft and 190-210mph IAS range. Can't speak for anything outside that, I try never to be lower.

PS. Where do you B25 flyers tend to operate online? It's always good to get a formation going on a decent objective based server. I've been pretty much exclusively ADW for the past month or two (no B25s on that yet, still in a 1942 rotation)

PPS. For superchargers, manifold pressure guages are your friends. I dunno, switch alt may even vary from map to map with regard to the ambient temp (like overheating characteristic do). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahhh...now I get what yer sayin'. So, if we could adjust the bombsight in smaller increments the bombsight solution would match the TAS in knots much more closely...I'll buy that. Heck, it's still more accurate then entering the TAS in MPH! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Well, I was worried that different ambient temps on different maps would affect my bombing tables so I've tested them on several diffent maps and haven't noticed any difference in the switch altitude. But that would make sense as colder air is denser than warm air.

As for where I spend my time, I like to hang out at AG-51s PacificConflict server (when I'm not traveling for work). Awesome server and with my !@#$% dialup connection it's about the only full real PTO server I can play on. Plenty of B-25s as well as SBDs and Vals. And the Betty. But the B-25 is my baby. Just love 'er to pieces. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

Crash_Moses
06-12-2006, 02:13 PM
12,000ft table now available. Inserted it into original post.

You'll notice that a couple of the fields have two values. The top value is the optimum setting for those with prop pitch on a wheel or slider. The bottom value is for those without...

Enjoy! S!

joeap
06-13-2006, 06:37 AM
Thanks once I figure out where to print this out I'll do it...thing I I've been doing a bit of bombing for the Rodina lately not the USA or old Blighty (still running a Ju-88 campaign for the Fatherland) but I do like the B-25 however.

Crash_Moses
06-13-2006, 05:22 PM
Roger that!

Let me know how it works.

S!

Daytraders
06-16-2006, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by MOH_Magoo:
Gents..

I don't totally understand the need for all these charts unless you like to manual bomb.

The built in bomb sight in the B25 for auto bomb works very well if the TAS and altitude are inputted correctly. I just use the gauges in the bombadier position for altitufe and the faster needle on the speed gauge for TAS.

I have hit single ships from 14,000 feet several times in online games.

So, if you really want to keep it simple use the built in auto bomb feature and you will get hits.

MagOO

impossible as there is known bug, if you do what your saying it will miss by miles even more so at that height, trust me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

on UK2 dedicated server i almost always fly the B25 with escort fighters, seems to be B25 on most maps its great fun server http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Daytraders
06-16-2006, 05:58 PM
Please note that the crosshairs indicate where the first set of bombs will hit. If you want to pickle the target with multiple bombs you€ll have to aim a little ahead of the target.

just for my confirmation you mean before the target correct ? as a little ahead i see as meaning after the target passes crosshairs. thx

and one other thing instead of elevator trim i just use combat flaps or is this wrong to stop me looseing attitude, mind you i only normally bomb at like 6000 feet max, and whats a runway ramp http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Daytraders
06-16-2006, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by VonKlugermon:
Impressive work! I like the fact you have calculated the various load-outs, the chart I currently use only works for 500 and 1,000 lbs.

Critique: I go for simplicity, the easier the better! Right now I rarely utilize automatic bombing. Manual allows for mutltiple targets and to me is just more fun. Utilizing the same throttle/pitch settings across the board also makes things easier. I go for 90% on both and then trim up the plane, no matter what the altitude, then speed and bomb angle are the only variables to set in the bomb sight. (I always utilize 50% fuel load and rarely run out of fuel) Once that is done, final line up on the target with rudder trim.

Willy

"then speed and bomb angle are the only variables to set in the bomb sight."

if manually bombing u dont need to input anything in to bombsite i thought as long as you doing the correct airspeed and at correct attitude i thought, as nothing changes in the site only for automation or am i wrong ?

Crash_Moses
06-16-2006, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by Daytraders:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VonKlugermon:
Impressive work! I like the fact you have calculated the various load-outs, the chart I currently use only works for 500 and 1,000 lbs.

Critique: I go for simplicity, the easier the better! Right now I rarely utilize automatic bombing. Manual allows for mutltiple targets and to me is just more fun. Utilizing the same throttle/pitch settings across the board also makes things easier. I go for 90% on both and then trim up the plane, no matter what the altitude, then speed and bomb angle are the only variables to set in the bomb sight. (I always utilize 50% fuel load and rarely run out of fuel) Once that is done, final line up on the target with rudder trim.

Willy

"then speed and bomb angle are the only variables to set in the bomb sight."

if manually bombing u dont need to input anything in to bombsite i thought as long as you doing the correct airspeed and at correct attitude i thought, as nothing changes in the site only for automation or am i wrong ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are correct, Sir. The only input needed is the bomb angle.

Crash_Moses
06-16-2006, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by Daytraders:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Please note that the crosshairs indicate where the first set of bombs will hit. If you want to pickle the target with multiple bombs you€ll have to aim a little ahead of the target.

just for my confirmation you mean before the target correct ? as a little ahead i see as meaning after the target passes crosshairs. thx </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doh! Good show! Thanks for pointing that out. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


and one other thing instead of elevator trim i just use combat flaps or is this wrong to stop me looseing attitude, mind you i only normally bomb at like 6000 feet max...

Nope, you're not wrong (although I'm unsure if using flaps to maintain altitude was ever used in real life). But I try to avoid using flaps for a few reasons:

1) It reduces your top speed and getting in and out of a hot zone with flak and enemy fighters can be tricky in a big slow bomber. The faster you fly the better your chances of hitting your target and getting back to base (at the expense of some accuracy...but not much).

2) Also, after you've dropped your bombs and are gettin' the heck out of Dodge, raising your flaps changes your flight characteristics dramatically and you waste time re-trimming your airplane when you should be scootin' for home.

3) It's one more key to forget to press. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

However, there are times when it's necessary to use the flaps. Depending on altitude, bombload, and fuel level there are specific speeds at which the B-25 begins to sink despite trim settings. If you can keep the aircraft above that critical speed you don't need combat flaps. But the higher you climb the more difficult this is because of the thin air. I'm currently working on the 20,000ft table and I have to use combat flaps for almost every configuration (I think. I'll know for sure when I finish).

I know for certain though, that combat flaps are unnecessary at least up to 12,000ft with a maximum fuel level of 75%.

Regardless, as far as my bombing tables go, the use of flaps is not a substitute for elevator trim. Even with combat flaps engaged you can still climb with the level stabilizer on (or sink if you happen to slow down enough). My trim settings indicate the input necessary to keep the B-25 at an exact alititude. No climbing or sinking (or as dang close as possible within the confines of the flight model).

Trim and flaps should be used in conjunction in order to maintain a certain altitude but, in my opinion, only when necessary. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


...and whats a runway ramp http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Runway ramps are the areas where aircraft park, load, and unload (i.e. outside the hangers). They are also called aprons.

Hope that answers your questions. I apologize for the long winded reply but I do so love the subject. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

S!

AFJ_Locust
06-17-2006, 02:18 AM
Chart for 20,000ft=
Full Throttle 110% (speed is around 174) Just firewall it.
Cowlflaps closed (radiator)
500 & 1000 Pound bombs
32 degree's bang on tgt every time
=================================================
10,000ft@200mph=39Degree's

15,000ft@200mph=36Degree's

These are Indicated airspeed not tas

Money every time

AFJ_Locust
06-17-2006, 02:21 AM
ps moses is right flaps ruin your climb out.

altho they can be usefull for keeping a large flight together, I hate flaps in a climb myself just feals like im draging dead weight.

AFJ_Locust
06-17-2006, 02:27 AM
One more tip for b25 bombers, never take 25% fuel
thats just wrong. dont need 75% either unless your flying around the world.

Kernow
06-17-2006, 03:06 AM
I doubt flap was ever used for real during the climb or cruise; flap means drag and drag is generally a bad think. However, as has been said, it sometimes helps in this game, because the auto-level doesn't always work even though you can manually maintain height at a certain power setting. Not so much of a problem by yourself - just throw more coals on the fire until it will hold level, but that's no good if you want a formation to keep together. And you do want to stick close together. What's the point of a trail of B-25s, each just outside guns range of the next B-25? But you do see it far too often: a gaggle lacking the stealth of a single aircraft and lacking the defensive firepower of a formation http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I reckon anything more than 75% doesn't give the followers much chance to gain and maintain position and you'll probably need flap above about 13000 ft for the auto-level to actually hold level. [and the drag doesn't matter here where we never need to make our fuel last hours]

Oh, never use the cowl flaps on the B-25 (or anything with a Wright engine) they only add drag and do nothing more for cooling. Pretty sure that bug is still with us, although not checked in 4.05.

Daytraders
06-17-2006, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by Crash_Moses:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daytraders:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Please note that the crosshairs indicate where the first set of bombs will hit. If you want to pickle the target with multiple bombs you€ll have to aim a little ahead of the target.

just for my confirmation you mean before the target correct ? as a little ahead i see as meaning after the target passes crosshairs. thx </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doh! Good show! Thanks for pointing that out. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


and one other thing instead of elevator trim i just use combat flaps or is this wrong to stop me looseing attitude, mind you i only normally bomb at like 6000 feet max...

Nope, you're not wrong (although I'm unsure if using flaps to maintain altitude was ever used in real life). But I try to avoid using flaps for a few reasons:

1) It reduces your top speed and getting in and out of a hot zone with flak and enemy fighters can be tricky in a big slow bomber. The faster you fly the better your chances of hitting your target and getting back to base (at the expense of some accuracy...but not much).

2) Also, after you've dropped your bombs and are gettin' the heck out of Dodge, raising your flaps changes your flight characteristics dramatically and you waste time re-trimming your airplane when you should be scootin' for home.

3) It's one more key to forget to press. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

However, there are times when it's necessary to use the flaps. Depending on altitude, bombload, and fuel level there are specific speeds at which the B-25 begins to sink despite trim settings. If you can keep the aircraft above that critical speed you don't need combat flaps. But the higher you climb the more difficult this is because of the thin air. I'm currently working on the 20,000ft table and I have to use combat flaps for almost every configuration (I think. I'll know for sure when I finish).

I know for certain though, that combat flaps are unnecessary at least up to 12,000ft with a maximum fuel level of 75%.

Regardless, as far as my bombing tables go, the use of flaps is not a substitute for elevator trim. Even with combat flaps engaged you can still climb with the level stabilizer on (or sink if you happen to slow down enough). My trim settings indicate the input necessary to keep the B-25 at an exact alititude. No climbing or sinking (or as dang close as possible within the confines of the flight model).

Trim and flaps should be used in conjunction in order to maintain a certain altitude but, in my opinion, only when necessary. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


...and whats a runway ramp http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Runway ramps are the areas where aircraft park, load, and unload (i.e. outside the hangers). They are also called aprons.

Hope that answers your questions. I apologize for the long winded reply but I do so love the subject. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thx for the great replys m8 that answered everything for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Daytraders
06-17-2006, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
Chart for 20,000ft=
Full Throttle 110% (speed is around 174) Just firewall it.
Cowlflaps closed (radiator)
500 & 1000 Pound bombs
32 degree's bang on tgt every time
=================================================
10,000ft@200mph=39Degree's

15,000ft@200mph=36Degree's

These are Indicated airspeed not tas

Money every time

are u sure as the chart i see on net says indictaed airspeed as 170. and full throttle soon brings up overheat.

http://www.airwarfare.com/guides/images/b25_bg/B25bombchart75.jpg

Kernow
06-17-2006, 09:25 AM
I've seen that table before and didn't find it very accurate.

Crash_Moses
06-17-2006, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
One more tip for b25 bombers, never take 25% fuel
thats just wrong. dont need 75% either unless your flying around the world.

Correct...if you're on a dogfight server. 50% should be all you ever need. However, in some co-op missions and more than a few off-line missions that try to simulate what it was really like to fly a bombing mission I've started with 75% or 100% fuel and ended up with close to 25% over target. The challenge then, is to make it back with your remaining fuel.

And what if fuel is in short supply? Maybe the enemy has cut off your supply lines and the flight officer won't let you take more than 25%? Or maybe you get lost and by the time you find the target you're down to 25%?

This is war, gentleman! We must be prepared for any eventuality! On yer feet, Marines! We have a job to do!

(woah...I have goose bumps... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif )

Crash_Moses
06-17-2006, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by Daytraders:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
Chart for 20,000ft=
Full Throttle 110% (speed is around 174) Just firewall it.
Cowlflaps closed (radiator)
500 & 1000 Pound bombs
32 degree's bang on tgt every time
=================================================
10,000ft@200mph=39Degree's

15,000ft@200mph=36Degree's

These are Indicated airspeed not tas

Money every time

are u sure as the chart i see on net says indictaed airspeed as 170. and full throttle soon brings up overheat.

http://www.airwarfare.com/guides/images/b25_bg/B25bombchart75.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, you are both correct. The B-25 won't overheat at max settings at 20,000ft and I succesfully pickled the target using Locust's settings. There are many approaches to level bombing that work, including the chart above (credit to Drilling_857). However, in real life those Wright Cyclone's were babied and coddled and I hesitate to overtax them as they are necessary for the ride home.

What I'm trying to achieve with my tables is precision bombing. I don't want to get close to the target. I don't want to just cover an area. I want the target obliterated. Gone. No more. Maybe some screen shots are in order...(both drops were done with 50% fuel and 3x1000lb bombs)

This is a manual drop using Locusts' settings. Very good for 20,000ft! (I think I might have actually hit if I played with the throttle a little).
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y125/Crash_Moses/bomb1.gif

This is an automatic drop from 20,000ft using my settings: 81 Throttle, 100 prop pitch, elevator trim is 3 negative clicks from the neutral position. IAS is 165 M.P.H. (TAS is 375 K.P.H.). Bombsight TAS is 220.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y125/Crash_Moses/bomb2.gif

That, gentlemen, is what I's a been talkin' aboot...

Daytraders
06-17-2006, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Crash_Moses:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daytraders:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
Chart for 20,000ft=
Full Throttle 110% (speed is around 174) Just firewall it.
Cowlflaps closed (radiator)
500 & 1000 Pound bombs
32 degree's bang on tgt every time
=================================================
10,000ft@200mph=39Degree's

15,000ft@200mph=36Degree's

These are Indicated airspeed not tas

Money every time

are u sure as the chart i see on net says indictaed airspeed as 170. and full throttle soon brings up overheat.

http://www.airwarfare.com/guides/images/b25_bg/B25bombchart75.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, you are both correct. The B-25 won't overheat at max settings at 20,000ft and I succesfully pickled the target using Locust's settings. There are many approaches to level bombing that work, including the chart above (credit to Drilling_857). However, in real life those Wright Cyclone's were babied and coddled and I hesitate to overtax them as they are necessary for the ride home.

What I'm trying to achieve with my tables is precision bombing. I don't want to get close to the target. I don't want to just cover an area. I want the target obliterated. Gone. No more. Maybe some screen shots are in order...(both drops were done with 50% fuel and 3x1000lb bombs)

This is a manual drop using Locusts' settings. Very good for 20,000ft! (I think I might have actually hit if I played with the throttle a little).
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y125/Crash_Moses/bomb1.gif

This is an automatic drop from 20,000ft using my settings: 81 Throttle, 100 prop pitch, elevator trim is 3 negative clicks from the neutral position. IAS is 165 M.P.H. (TAS is 375 K.P.H.). Bombsight TAS is 220.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y125/Crash_Moses/bomb2.gif

That, gentlemen, is what I's a been talkin' aboot... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes that is what i want precision, as the 1st picture is a complete miss in my book, what about Locust settings for 10,000 and 15,000 feet how can they be right if chart says 170mph and he says 200mph ?

ps can u give me link to mission in thouse screens for me to test. thx

Crash_Moses
06-17-2006, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by Daytraders:

yes that is what i want precision, as the 1st picture is a complete miss in my book, what about Locust settings for 10,000 and 15,000 feet how can they be right if chart says 170mph and he says 200mph ?

Hmmm...I'm not sure. Maybe Locust can answer that. They work for him and it's hard to argue with success. Maybe if I get time I'll do some comparison testing (I want to get these tables finished first...very time consuming.)

Couple of theories though. He may be talking about ground targets. If the target in the above screenshot had been on the ground it would have been toast. You don't have to be as accurate with ground targets...especially with three 1000lb bombs.

Another thing I've noticed is that the angle at which you drop the bombs (manually) is more dependant on altitude than speed. What I mean is, it's possible that the angle at which you drop will work across a certain range of speeds. In the upper left of my tables you'll see the MBA (Manual Bomb Angle) and it works for every setting on the table (otherwise I would have put it in an extra column along with the other variables). Manual bombing is still not as accurate as automatic bombing (IF you use my tables http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif). If it were possible to input the bomb angle in smaller increments (i.e. 32.5, 32.25, etc.) than this probably wouldn't hold true.


ps can u give me link to mission in thouse screens for me to test. thx

Be more than happy to. I don't have anywhere to host it but if you PM me your e-mail address I'll send it to you. In addition to the fishing boats there are some ground targets just a bit further on that I use most of the time. The boats work pretty well for the 1000lb and 500lb payloads but it's easier to verify accuracy of the smaller bombloads on ground targets.

Plus I enjoy the extra carnage and destruction. Muhahahahahaha! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Crash_Moses
06-18-2006, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by VonKlugermon:
20,000 feet? Now your talking! Post your chart for that altitude and I'll be glad to use it! (15,000 has been my maximum!)

Willy

Hang in there. About half done with 20,000ft.

Crash_Moses
06-19-2006, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Crash_Moses:
Okay, Gents. I need some feedback from all you level bombing afficianados.

I've been working on a comprehensive level bombing guide for the B-25/PBJ and I think my bombing tables are pretty dang accurate. (Okay, they are scary accurate. Amazing accurate. They are "you won't believe how accurate they are" accurate).

But in the land of IL-2/PF things are never quite like they seem so I thought I'd enlist the help of some New Guinea pigs (Ha! Get it?) to verify my accuracy before I make the entire guide available.


Works great, Moses! Keep up the good work! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Crash_Moses
06-21-2006, 06:39 PM
Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya...you killed my father...prepare to die!

Crash_Moses
07-01-2006, 12:01 PM
Finally finished 20,000ft! Whew! (as always, you'll find it in the first post).

This one was a royal pain. Still not convinced it's 100% accurate so if you find any mistakes, yoller. I'll eventually go back and verify everything (again...sigh) but right now I have a week off and I'm going to try and finish up the full guide.

I've added a capitol N to the Trim column. It just designates neutral elevator trim so don't let it throw you. I'll eventually go back and change the other trim tables to match.

Well, gotta go mow the lawn before it rains. Happy bombing!

S!

claypidgon
07-04-2006, 10:31 AM
Crash do you take the speed from the speedbar,the cockpit or the gauge by the bombsight??

claypidgon
07-05-2006, 09:39 AM
bump to Crash....http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ONE more bump for Crash!!!!!!!!!!!!!

claypidgon
07-06-2006, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by claypidgon:
bump to Crash....http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ONE more bump for Crash!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Crash_Moses
07-06-2006, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by claypidgon:
Crash do you take the speed from the speedbar,the cockpit or the gauge by the bombsight??

lol...sorry, lad. Been busy working on 14,000ft. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Well, I'm a full-real kind of guy so I take my speed reading from the gauge in the cockpit. Normally I'd take it from the gauge in the bombadier position but it's broken into 5 MPH increments and the one in the cockpit is broken into 4 MPH increments so it's a little more precise. The IAS figures in my chart are all taken from the gauge in the cockpit.

But if you're not into full-real then the most accurate gauge is the one in no-cockpit view which gives your TAS in KPH.


S!

claypidgon
07-06-2006, 12:53 PM
Thank you.....http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Crash_Moses
07-09-2006, 09:13 PM
Me again!

In response to all the great feeback I've gotten I've made some changes to the tables and instructions to clear up some ambiguities and correct a few things. I also changed how the elevator trim settings are annotated.

Happy bombing!

S!

Crash_Moses
07-10-2006, 02:53 PM
Awright, listen up maggots!

Finally finished 14,000ft (my favorite, I think).

But don't bother looking up top 'cause it ain't there. I also finished the full guide and the fellers at airwarfare.com have graciously offered to hide it...er...host it at their site. (Thanks, guys!)

Soooo...if you really, really want it yer gonna hafta download it from here:http://www.airwarfare.com/guides.htm#002

How's that for blatant sel***randizement? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

S! (and I'm sorry I called you maggots...honest)

Daytraders
07-10-2006, 04:20 PM
thx crash for all your hard work http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Crash_Moses
07-10-2006, 07:40 PM
You're welcome!

I do so love the subject...

S!

(hmmm...now where did I put that SBD manual?)

claypidgon
07-10-2006, 10:36 PM
My hats off to you sir,What a great work and a lot of it..I printed it up and am reading it now..GREAT!!!! I dont think I'm a good enough pilot to make it work...

joeap
07-11-2006, 01:24 AM
Well tried 6x500 50% fuel from 20,000 feet last night using your guide and mission. I did a boo-boo looking at the setting for 75% fuel and I wondered why things were wonky...I shifted back around then saw the correct settings and settled in time to hit the land target bulleye! I never in all my time have hit my target from so high up! I have just downloaded the definitive guide so I am all set. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

AWL_Spinner
07-11-2006, 02:01 AM
Just downloaded your complete manual from airwarfare and that's a sweet piece of work, congrats!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Daytraders
07-11-2006, 07:22 AM
for some reason that .doc dont open for me something about unable to load graphics conversion filter.continue with document conversion? i then chouse yes and nothing, any ideals. thx

Crash_Moses
07-11-2006, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by claypidgon:
My hats off to you sir,What a great work and a lot of it..I printed it up and am reading it now..GREAT!!!! I dont think I'm a good enough pilot to make it work...

Thanks!

Like everything, it just takes practice. Hmmm...I shoulda included my test mission in the zip. My bad. PM me and I'll e-mail ya my test mission. Great for practicing.

Crash_Moses
07-11-2006, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by Daytraders:
for some reason that .doc dont open for me something about unable to load graphics conversion filter.continue with document conversion? i then chouse yes and nothing, any ideals. thx

Hmmm...I used Word 97 SR-2 to write it. Sounds like you're missing a filter.

Try opening it with Wordpad. It won't look as pretty but you'll be able to read it.

If that doesn't work then you can try the Microsoft Word Viewer. That works pretty well. It's 11.7MB and you can get it here:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyi...B8FDF&displaylang=en (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=95E24C87-8732-48D5-8689-AB826E7B8FDF&displaylang=en)

I had planned on doing an Open Office version (my main PC at home doesn't have Word either). I'll check into converting it to Wordpad also.

Daytraders
07-11-2006, 10:23 AM
yeh i only have wordpad i read txt in that but no images, i take look at the veiwer. thx

Crash_Moses
07-28-2006, 09:14 AM
Up from the depths it rises!

Good news for those without word. EURO_Snoopy has finished the HTML version of the guide at airwarfare.com and I must say it looks pretty good (makes me want start learning how to do all that HTML stuff).

A big thanks to EURO_Snoopy and the folks at airwarfare.com...
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

S!

Crash_Moses
07-28-2006, 02:41 PM
Ha! Caught ya!

Back to work!