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XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 08:12 PM
I still have a few hours at work, but I have to ask!

1. Is the altimeter now working in the P47? Does it show ten-thousand feet increments?
2. Is the artificial horizon working on the P47?
3. Is the roll-rate better than previously?
4. Does it dive better and zoom better than before?


--
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Executive Officer 56th Fighter Group
61st Fighter Squadron
Zemke's Wolfpack
CAVE TONITRUM

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 08:12 PM
I still have a few hours at work, but I have to ask!

1. Is the altimeter now working in the P47? Does it show ten-thousand feet increments?
2. Is the artificial horizon working on the P47?
3. Is the roll-rate better than previously?
4. Does it dive better and zoom better than before?


--
Surgeon General

Executive Officer 56th Fighter Group
61st Fighter Squadron
Zemke's Wolfpack
CAVE TONITRUM

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 08:36 PM
It's alot better in the vertical, however it's roll rate seems to remain unchanged, I didn't notice the altimiter and HSI though. I'll check it next time. Dive acceleration doesn't differ much from eachother, it's all about at what speed you brake appart. As far as that goes, the P-47 outdives all russian planes with ease if you have altitude to spare. The Dora still reamins a threat in dives though.

http://www.iownjoo.com/freeimghost/robban75/Dora-9-3.JPG


'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 09:43 PM
I'm already reading bad things about the P47s roll-rate. Some are saying it was better in previous patches, but worse in this one... :-(

--
Surgeon General

Executive Officer 56th Fighter Group
61st Fighter Squadron
Zemke's Wolfpack
CAVE TONITRUM

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 09:45 PM
roll rate the same /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I had beta08 as well

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The_Blue_Devil
08-12-2003, 09:48 PM
The 109 now goes 1100KPH before break up in a dive..Full Power(tested in an F4). I.E. It can dive with a Jug. The jug has a Glass Jaw and can be crippled in one pass by a bloody Brewster. Roll rate is a sick joke due to the fact that they had it almost right in test 7 and then porked it again. It has come down to "Don't get hit in a JUG"..where it used to be "Go ahead and waste your entire mag of ammo on me HAHAHA"

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


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XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 09:52 PM
I hate to think what the P-51 will be like. I hate to sound so negative, but I expected more after all this time.

Buzz_25th
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------47|FC=-
<center>
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<center>
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XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 09:54 PM
Ver 1.1b.

http://users.adelphia.net/~machineii/P-47%20Data.pdf

Pfft.

How hard is it to get it right?

AND the turbo gauge is STILL broken.

Seriously...how hard is it to get someone to BETA test the P-47 FM????

EDIT- Upon further testing 109's can only sustain a dive up to about 880 before they fall apart...P-47 can dive to 1080 before it falls apart. I don't know at what point the 109 cannot recover, but it shouldn't be much greater than 750 or so.

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Message Edited on 08/12/0305:25PM by MachineII

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 10:00 PM
I think your right, I tride the Jug today on the Over th top server. I dived down a couple of time's, on why way up the second time i was hit by a short burst from an enemy aircraf. He desroyed my controls and killed me the player. He was 700mere's away.
I could rant about the people that worked on the Jug but,
I have only tride it a couple of times.


Silent out...

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 10:07 PM
The guns are better. I snapped a whole wing of a Ju-88. It must've been at exactly convergence but, I was never able to do that before the patch.

still

they could.ve thrown in two or three new flyable planes. (p51 bf110)

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

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XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 10:15 PM
The DM is off on the P-47, I'd say.

Like someone said, one pass with a Brewster and the controls are beyond repair. Roll rate is more or less the same, but the dive is better.

A faster dive to your death is what can be expected.

Another thing I noticed is that crashed aircraft burn for ages. This might cause problems with gameplay on crowded servers.

The AAA is definitley better (worse) but the AI gunners are too bad now, IMHO. It feels like they aren't shooting back at all...

I like the new trees and the enhanced xplosion effects and the dust effect when you fly low. Nice additions.

The Hurri is still a nice plane to fly and hasn't been crippled.

The Stuka feels a little 'lighter' and seems to climb better.

I noticed the improved gun effects too. Nice!

The 190 has changed a bit, but I can't quite put my finger on how.... a little faster?... better climb rate? Increased turn rate? Dunno... just feels slightly differet and better IMHO.

Swings and roundabouts. Overall a good patch. Needs one or two tweaks, but then, don't we all /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


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XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 12:21 AM
I gave the Jug another chance, I used the Jug twice against an LA-7. The first head on pass he killed me, it was if the 8 50's were not evan there. The second time up I servved a head on pass, bairly. I had a fuel leak. I then had no choice but to dive. I dove from about 1200m as far as i could with out killing myself. I almost reached 800kmph and then i had to pull up. I gently pulled up until I was vertical, 90degreas. When my speed reached about 300kmph and i reached an alt of about 1200m I pressed F2. The LA-7 was 700m behind me and closing. When i was finaly at the stalling point i rolled over to dive back down again.
I pressed F2 again and the LA-7 was 300m away firing. The Jug was riped in half lol.

I know the Jug isn't all that great at low alt but man, with MD the Jug is evan more useles than before. So im thinking of reinstalling FB and i will let UBI keep there Patch.

Silent out...

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 01:17 AM
Odd, I killed two LA and a 109 in a run today, although the second LA got me too in the head on.

Further testing and playing by all of us will reveal much. I only hope we are as quick with the thumbs up as we are with the thumbs down.

WYS
AB_Onedoc

bigvette
08-13-2003, 01:40 AM
Great, sounds like the patch didn't even fix the main concerns I had with it - fix the P-47. Either someone is failing to account for reality in tha it was a good platform, or they just don't have the time or expertise to do it right.

http://people.tamu.edu/~rdr0821/BigVette%20FA18F%2080.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 01:48 AM
The roll rate and DM could stand work. Still a rugged flyable fighter/bomber to be dealt with. I expect that it will be addressed with proper care in the future.

What I would hope is that all of the Ameriwhinners will conduct themselves in a courteous manner when addressing these obviously flawed aspects of the current JUG.

Another point I would like to make is that as Western born JUG lovers we need to recognize the fact that we may not get the JUG "we" all know from flying other sims. While I hope that the roll rate and DM are improved more on the JUG, I am pretty clear now that it will "NOT" be "EXACTLY" like the Western data, Skychimps data, most other data, and pilots says it was. Regardless of the validity(WHICH CAN ALWAYS BE DEBATED TO DEATH) of said data.

Let's just "try" to keep that in mind when dealing with these issues. Otherwise it looks like a bunch of spoiled crybaby Westerners screaming because their bottle milk was not exactly the right temperture. Enjoy flying guys S!

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XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 01:49 AM
I agree and the vvs aircraft dont seem to stall/spin much like luftwaffe ac do at drop of a hat....

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 02:23 AM
VF_310thSilent wrote:
... whine ...
- I know the Jug isn't all that great at low alt but
- man, with MD the Jug is evan more useles than
- before. So im thinking of reinstalling FB and i will
- let UBI keep there Patch.

Do you not read the plane descriptions? For the La7 advantages: Absolute Combat Superiority over all piston driven german, british and american planes at the time below 5000m. And you're suprised when the La7 can catch you after a mere 1200m dive & zoom climb? Hell, I dive more than that in an Il2 on attack missions!

The Jug is a big, heavy plane. If you start with an energy advantage, you can keep it and win, but if you try fighting an La7 on even terms below 5000m, what do you expect to happen? A dive used as a defensive manouver will not gain you the initative. You pulled ahead of the La in the dive, since you have a heavier plane, but then you wasted it by going into a vertical climb where he can use his superior sustained climb and better power loading on you. You would have been better off extending away since you had already lost advantage to a superior aircraft.

The Jug is a sturdy plane, but the ShVAK cannons will cut the wing off an Il2. Do you really think the Jug is better armoured than the Flying Tank?

Note that many other pilots here are enjoying the new improved Jug. You can't expect to fly a plane perfectly in less than a day.

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 06:16 AM
True the La-7 is superior, and yes i should have extended.
The Jug does seem to manuver alittle better. exept for the roll rate. I am happy with that. But becuase any plane can take a Jug down, kill the pilot, and render the controls useles in one pass, it's now evan more usless.
There is a known issue with the 20mm mg and th MD to the Jug.

I hope the UBI fixes the MD and the roll rate. But for now i will leave the Jug parked and stick with the LA-7. The game itself seems to run a little smoother, so I will keep the patch installed.



Silent out....

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 06:32 AM
Did you notice that the La7 start shaking at about 650 kph now, and at 720 it tears to pieces.

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XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 07:23 AM
Silent,

- But becuase
- any plane can take a Jug down, kill the pilot, and
- render the controls useles in one pass, it's now
- evan more usless.

I assume that by "any aircraft" you are referring to the lowly Brewster (at least that was what a couple other posters griped about). Keep in mind the Brewster is armed with 4x .50cals. That's a pretty hard-hitting armament whichever way you cut it.



--
Joques
Ok, so you've got a Yak
That don't impress me much

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 07:38 AM
It's funny, the La-7 (and I think La-5FN) when it reaches near top speed in level flight it already starts shaking! It hasn't even dove yet. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

My impressions of the P-47:

-Better energy retention
-Better guns (less spread and recoil)
-Better handling (except roll-rate)
-Roll-rate still too slow
-Better in dive
-Engine and guns sound bad a$$.

All in all I would say the Jug is improved greatly, and is almost correct IMHO. I agree that the roll-rate should be a little better. Haven't tried the DM yet (I wasn't getting hit), but I thought it was decent in test08. The bottom line is that a P-47 at low altitude is simply outclassed by the La-5/7 and some others. At very high altitudes it would/should be a different story but I don't think FB can accurately represent this. Something to keep in mind.

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Message Edited on 08/13/0306:39AM by kyrule2

The_Blue_Devil
08-13-2003, 09:54 AM
joques wrote:
-
- Silent,
-
-- But becuase
-- any plane can take a Jug down, kill the pilot, and
-- render the controls useles in one pass, it's now
-- evan more usless.
-
- I assume that by "any aircraft" you are referring to
- the lowly Brewster (at least that was what a couple
- other posters griped about). Keep in mind the
- Brewster is armed with 4x .50cals. That's a pretty
- hard-hitting armament whichever way you cut it.
-
-
-
-
Brewster has 4 fifty's but the mere fact that it can dent a Jug boggles me as the Jug was able to chew 20mm shells in real life and keep going.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySigII.gif> </center>



Message Edited on 08/13/0308:57AM by The_Blue_Devil

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 11:04 AM
The_Blue_Devil wrote:
- Brewster has 4 fifty's but the mere fact that it can
- dent a Jug boggles me as the Jug was able to chew
- 20mm shells in real life and keep going.

You need to separate the instances in which some lucky
Jugs managed to absorb a large number of 20mm rounds,
and what the average was. Reasoning from exceptional
circumstances leads to erroneous conclusions. For example
sometimes an RAF fighter would empty all its ammunition
into an He111 in 1940, and the 1940 returned. We cannot
conclude from this, however, that no He111s were downed
by Spitfires or Hurricanes in the Battle of Britain!

There is no reason why 4 .50s should not be able to
damage or bring down a P47. It's not going to be easy
to do, though, unless your gunnery skills are good, since
the P47 is tough, but the P47 is not invulnerable, and
wasn't in real life.

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 11:15 AM
The_Blue_Devil wrote:

- Brewster has 4 fifty's but the mere fact that it can
- dent a Jug boggles me as the Jug was able to chew
- 20mm shells in real life and keep going.

LOL! This really takes me back to some of you jugwhiners claiming that .50cals would "shred" a Tiger tank. So I guess you feel that the Jug was better armoured than one of Germany's most heavily armoured tanks /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



--
Joques
Ok, so you've got a Yak
That don't impress me much

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 11:39 AM
I haven't tested the P47's in game roll rate, but the actual P47 did not have a roll rate worth bragging about. Why does everyone seem to think it could out roll Fw190s?

The NACA testing of the P47 shows that was simply NOT true.. not even close..

P47

100mph 10.5 seconds to roll 360'
300mph 5.0 seconds to roll 360'
400mph 5.7 seconds to roll 360'

Fw190A4

100mph 4.80 seconds to roll 360'
300mph 2.70 seconds to roll 360'
400mph 4.40 seconds to roll 360'

P51

100mph 11.25 seconds to roll 360'
300mph 3.70 seconds to roll 360'
400mph 4.60 seconds to roll 360'


The clipped wing Spit out rolled the P47 handily as well..The standard wing Spitfire rolled slower than the clipped MkV, but I didn't grab that data.. but if I remember correctly, it wasn't grossly worse than the P47 either..

The P47 rolled slower than most of its contemporaries with the notable exception of the 109 at highers speeds..

The P47 could out roll a 109, especially at higher speeds (over 350mph) and that gave it a tactical advantage.. but the "Myth" that the P47 was a "Super Roller" is just that, a MYTH

The P47 could do several things very well.. it could fly very fast at high altitude, it could dive like few other planes, it could absorb heavy damage, it could give out LOTS of damage in a hurry, it could resist structural failure very well..and most importantly it could keep the pilot alive and bring him home.. It's a great combat plane.

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 11:44 AM
joques wrote:

- LOL! This really takes me back to some of you
- jugwhiners claiming that .50cals would "shred" a
- Tiger tank. So I guess you feel that the Jug was
- better armoured than one of Germany's most heavily
- armoured tanks.
FACT:

A REPUBLIC P-47 THUNDERBOLT COULD-
SHREAD TIGER TANKS!
ABSORB ENOURMUS AMMOUNTS OF DAMAGE!
ENTER DOGFIGHTS WITH THE BEST THE LUFTWAFFT HAD AND WIN!

Any of you doubt this i'll give you my grandfather's telephone number. I'm sure he'll set you straight.

HE REPAIRED THEM!......
when they came back with holes in the top cylnders,
with tree top's and telephone poles in the wings,
with cowls shot off by flak. i talked to him about this just last week. In his opinion any "one who thought that the '47 isn't one of the most powerful fighters ever flown is an absolute MORON."

Gampa i whole heartedly agree with you.


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Hunter82
08-13-2003, 11:55 AM
errrrr you're doin it right now /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



MachineII wrote:
- Ver 1.1b.
-
- <a
- href="http://users.adelphia.net/~machineii/P-47%20
- Data.pdf"
- target=_blank>http://users.adelphia.net/~machineii
- /P-47%20Data.pdf</a>
-
-
- Pfft.
-
- How hard is it to get it right?
-
- AND the turbo gauge is STILL broken.
-
- Seriously...how hard is it to get someone to BETA
- test the P-47 FM????
-
- EDIT- Upon further testing 109's can only sustain a
- dive up to about 880 before they fall apart...P-47
- can dive to 1080 before it falls apart. I don't
- know at what point the 109 cannot recover, but it
- shouldn't be much greater than 750 or so.
-
- <html> <body><p align="center"><img
- src="http://users.adelphia.net/~machineii/images/s
- ig3.jpg" <center>
- <font
- color=red>If.I.could..just.reach.my.utility.belt!<
- /font> </body>
- <center><font color=yellow>BlitzPigMachine<font>
-
-
-
-
-
- Message Edited on 08/12/03 05:25PM by MachineII



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XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 11:57 AM
Copperhead,
My best to your grandfather, and no one disputes the P47's ability to absorb damage (the radil/design was VERY sturdy, hencee the switch to grgound attack) or kill enemy AC (although the "shredding Tiger tanks" only worked with heavy ordnance, the "we bounced the bullets off the ground into the soft underbelly" legend is just that..a legend.. The USAAF proved that it was untrue when they examined German hardware after DDay..)

As for entering the fight with the best of the LW, they often did, but many times they did not.. The P47 was a good combat plane, but it was no miracle plane at all.. If my life was on the line, and I was going to be deep in enemy territory, I'd be a LOT more comfortable in a 47D than a 51D though..

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 11:59 AM
LOL Jugwhiners want .50s to cut bombers in half but they won`t accept a direct engine hit damage/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"degustibus non disputandum"

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XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 12:31 PM
Jtasker,

I'm fairly certain that Copperhead was being sarcastic. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

--
Joques
Ok, so you've got a Yak
That don't impress me much

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 01:16 PM
carguy_ wrote:
- LOL Jugwhiners want .50s to cut bombers in half but
- they won`t accept a direct engine hit damage/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



Fly the Jug for half a day!!

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 01:19 PM
Yup, LA-7 is what i mainly use in a DF, hence I lerned the hard way. lol

I realy have know idea if that is realistic or not, shure makes BnZ harder. lol



Message Edited on 08/13/0312:24PM by VF_310thSilent

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 01:27 PM
"Any" as in any plane that fires amo. The proublem im told is the 20mm MG.

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 01:54 PM
Blue Devil..I agree. Roll rate still sucks big time. It wsa vastly improved in the beta but it's back to teh old ways now. Climb and dive r improved but like u said...it has a glass jaw. It cripples very easily it seems to me. I ahve only flown the patch for about an hour but I noticed this right away. It's also alot harder to take off in now. It takes forevr to get up enough speed to lift off the ground even with flaps up. You really need alot of runway space to lift up. That may be historical which is fine with me. It just takes getting used to. anyone else noticed this about the Jug?


http://56thfightergroup.bravepages.com/61.jpg

RichardI
08-13-2003, 02:23 PM
IMO the Jug is vastly improved in 1.1b. Except for the roll rate, and the climb in the D22. I'll be doing a little more testing this afternoon but in the meantime, has anybody tried a landing with the jug? I got the impression the flaps had almost no effect as far as slowing the jug down. Anybody else seen this? I made two attempts to land with full flaps, and each time, I had to apply power and go around because my speed was way too high. I know the Jug was a heavy airplane, and it would roll a long way, but it seemed a bit "off". More testing required...

Rich /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 02:42 PM
RichardI wrote:
- I got the impression the flaps had almost no
- effect as far as slowing the jug down. Anybody else
- seen this? I made two attempts to land with full
- flaps, and each time, I had to apply power and go
- around because my speed was way too high. I know the
- Jug was a heavy airplane, and it would roll a long
- way, but it seemed a bit "off". More testing
- required...

Hm, I didn't d/l the patch yet, but in 08 you had to minimize your prop setting for the landing. Throttling back to idle wasn't enough to bring RPM down for landing. This was also true for some of the other planes.



=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 05:11 PM
joques wrote:
- Jtasker,
-
- I'm fairly certain that Copperhead was being
- sarcastic.

What in the sam He|| Gave YOU that idea?
Why would i be sarcastic?
I meant every word of what i said.
And i whole-heartedly belive in the abbilties of the real p-47. Knowing what i have been told about them from ppl who were there and knew these planes like nobody else {like my Grandfather}. BECUASE THIER VERY LIVES DEPENDED ON IT.
and in my grandfather's case the lives of the men who flew the bird's he fixed. if something went wrong with a plane he or his crew's fixed and a pilot was lost to mechanical failure it was on them. the crew chief and the guys turning the wrenches. so you yahoos' are going to argue with 1st hand Knowlage?
all of you Ani-jug ppl are more stupid than i thought.
and quite honestly it's really stating to p!ss me off.

[and i'm not sure but i think there's a film clip of a p-47 tearing into a German tanki over at Zeno's drive in.]

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XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 05:18 PM
i noticed the same thing in the p-39N1 Richard.

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The_Blue_Devil
08-13-2003, 05:23 PM
- RichardI wrote:
-- I got the impression the flaps had almost no
-- effect as far as slowing the jug down. Anybody else
-- seen this? I made two attempts to land with full
-- flaps, and each time, I had to apply power and go
-- around because my speed was way too high. I know the
-- Jug was a heavy airplane, and it would roll a long
-- way, but it seemed a bit "off". More testing
-- required...

The real life Jug had a very high take off and landing speed. Took the Allied pilots a while to get used to it in real life too. Was the same in patch 8 just a little more even now. You just have to start slowing down earlier as in the 262. Heart C is correct in that you do have to lower your prop pitch during landing to bleed off some extra rpms on that Huge paddle blade.

Speaking of which the Jug is supposed to outclimb/climb with the German planes at Altitude. In real life LW pilots found that after the advent of the paddle blade they had trouble out climbing the Jug.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


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XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 05:28 PM
FG-56th_Lamb wrote:

- away. It's also alot harder to take off in now.
- It takes forevr to get up enough speed to lift off
- the ground even with flaps up. You really need alot
- of runway space to lift up. That may be historical

I noticed the same thing. I'm flying one of my older FMB missions and the take off definitely takes a LOT more of the runway.

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XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 05:31 PM
RichardI wrote:

- jug? I got the impression the flaps had almost no
- effect as far as slowing the jug down. Anybody else
- seen this? I made two attempts to land with full
- flaps, and each time, I had to apply power and go
- around because my speed was way too high. I know the

I had to go around twice as well. YOu're right, the flaps don't seem to slow it down much. I'd nose up to reduce speed but then it'd pick it back up when pointed the nose down. Prop pitch didn't help much either. It'll definitely take a little more practice. Overall, I like how the plane handles.

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XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 08:25 PM
Copperhead:

- What in the sam He|| Gave YOU that idea?
- Why would i be sarcastic?
- I meant every word of what i said.

Quite. So you do mean that Tigers should be shredded by .50cals, but that the jug should be impervious to those same .50cals?

Excuse me, but how could I interpret that as anything but sarcasm...?! In case you had forgotten, the Tiger is a heavy tank. The Jug is an aircraft. Which do you think can withstand the most damage?



--
Joques
Ok, so you've got a Yak
That don't impress me much

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 08:45 PM
P-47 is still a pig because of roll rate.. way too slow roll rate.. I thought Oleg was informed about this several times, and still it was not fixxed.. well I guess P-47:ers have to live with it, as FW-190-pilots have to live with the crappy gunsight view.

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