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View Full Version : Why not? USA planes for BoB



CyberWings
06-01-2007, 10:05 AM
We all know about the "problems" with the inclusion of certain American aircrafts. I´m not an expert in the subject but I think the main problem is to have a profit using copyrighted blueprints, right?
But, if American planes where not included in the original CD, and only added to the game as free addons made by fans?
For example the tempest included in 4.05 was free and one of the finest models of this simulator. BoB will only provide the engine to support these models and the inclusions of these planes will be the will of the users.
Just my thought http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif
Best regards!

IIJG69Kartofe
06-01-2007, 10:13 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Tempests .... During the battle of britain (BoB http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) ...

Okayyyy ...

I got a nice book here talking about wooden spitfires ... Do you want it?

XyZspineZyX
06-01-2007, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by CyberWings:
We all know about the "problems" with the inclusion of certain American aircrafts. I´m not an expert in the subject but I think the main problem is to have a profit using copyrighted blueprints, right?

No not really, but what does it matter? The specifics may be interesting to debate, but even if it was because Oleg was wearing the wrong color socks that day, it won't change the results of that fiasco. So it's pointless to discuss "why" and "how". All we need to know is the results, which we all know


Originally posted by CyberWings:
But, if American planes where not included in the original CD, and only added to the game as free addons made by fans?

Well first point: No American aircraft was a major particpant in the Battle of Britian. Perhaps some C-47s were in use as cargo transport, I am unsurer. But the Battle of Britian didn't include the USA as a belligerent, although US citizens did fly for the RAF during the Battle of Britain

Second point: Even if "fan made" planes were accepted, they would be introduced at the developer's choice, not the fan's choice. That is to say, if you make a P-51 for BoB on October 7 2007, that doesn't mean it will get into the sim the next day, when it's reviewed and accepted. They would simply release it when they wanted to release all the material suitable for the P-51. Do you see the issue?

Third point, define "free". I'm not sure that the work done in the add-ons we got for free actually cost the developer "nothing".


Originally posted by CyberWings:
For example the tempest included in 4.05 was free and one of the finest models of this simulator.

Yes, but I can't see how this example supports your idea


Originally posted by CyberWings:
BoB will only provide the engine to support these models and the inclusions of these planes will be the will of the users.


No, definitely not at the will of the users. Absolutely not

You're talking about a situation like MicroSoft's. The developers of this sim are very much opposed to that approach

You will get content when they release it. You're describing this open community were we pick and choose all these things that we just make...for one thing, online compatibility is a concern. For another, who reviews the "fan work", and how do I know it's within the bounds of acceptable realism?

CyberWings
06-01-2007, 10:30 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by IIJG69Kartofe:


Tempests .... During the battle of britain (BoB http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) ...

QUOTE]

Noo!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I´m just using the Tempest as an example to tell that free addon planes of good quality models could be included in the game. I don´t expect to fly the tempest in a Battle of Britain scenario. Although t would be great to have that plane again in a future BOB expantion. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JG53Frankyboy
06-01-2007, 10:36 AM
Oleg has the plan to release a kind of tool that 3.party designers can add their work, planes in this topic context, into the SoW Gameengine without help from the developer MAddoxGames.
their FM will not be such complicated like the "default" ones......... and perhaps there will be other limitations.
as a onlinehost/missionbuilder you can choose if you allow/want use these 3.party planes or not.

anyway, this is a look in the future (after SoW:BoB release !) and still not sure that it will ever happen - but as i said, Oleg has(or had) the plan.


an btw, its still not sure how this Grumman "affair" will work in the SoW series - we will see............... nothing is clear so far it seems- according to a comment of Saqson he made about including Grummans in the RRG's "Korea War Project" !
but there will be for sure F-86 ( i think Boeing owns the rights of NA nowaday ?!?!) , so, its not "all US planes" - its actually stuff from Northrop-Grumman.

CyberWings
06-01-2007, 10:59 AM
BBB462cid in reply of your post:

Please let me know if I'm wrong but I think that Bob is just the beginning of a new engine game that will have several expansions. It would be nice to be able to fly several of the planes, from the different nationalities we have in the il2 with this new engine and more accurate a detailed maps of russia, normandy, pacific, mediterranean, etc.

Although American planes are not my favorites (except for the p-40) It would be nice to be able to fly them in future addons.

I'm sure that the inclusion of planes made by users has a cost to the developer of the game but in part thanks to that inclusion IL2 series is today the best WWII simulator in the world, and that represent more sales for the developers.

And finally the flight mode of every planes could be included in the game from day one, and could be controlled by developers but only the physic/skin model of the planes in conflict would be downloadable as free. And I agree "fan made" planes should be introduced at the developer's choice, not the fan's choice.

Zoom2136
06-01-2007, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by CyberWings:

And finally the flight mode of every planes could be included in the game from day one, and could be controlled by developers but only the physic/skin model of the planes in conflict would be downloadable as free. And I agree "fan made" planes should be introduced at the developer's choice, not the fan's choice.

That's a cool idea... having the flight models of aircraft we already have in iL2 pre-included and have the community come up with the 3d work...

But I'm not sure that this would work as the 3d models of BOB seems extremely complex...

XyZspineZyX
06-01-2007, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by CyberWings:
BBB462cid in reply of your post:

Please let me know if I'm wrong but I think that Bob is just the beginning of a new engine game that will have several expansions.


Only partially correct, and perhaps this is the issue: BoB is "Battle of Britain", which is the first installment of the new sim series, called "Storm of War". It would be rather daft to have a sim called "Battle of Britain", and feature Corsairs over Rabaul, at least to my thinking. So I think when you say "BoB" what you meant was "Storm of War" as a whole series, but what you're typing and what I'm raading is that you are saying this should occur during the segment of the sim called "Battle of Britain", ie: summer of 1940. So I think the name itself is causing a bit of confusion here. Many people seem to not know the name of the sim is not "Battle of Britain". "BoB" is the name some community members came up with, for short. It's not really the name of the sim, just the first installment of Storm of War


Originally posted by CyberWings:
It would be nice to be able to fly several of the planes, from the different nationalities we have in the il2 with this new engine and more accurate a detailed maps of russia, normandy, pacific, mediterranean, etc.

It sure would


Originally posted by CyberWings:
Although American planes are not my favorites (except for the p-40) It would be nice to be able to fly them in future addons.

Absolutely, and this is the goal. But not in the first segment, called "Storm of War:Battle of Britain"


Originally posted by CyberWings:
I'm sure that the inclusion of planes made by users has a cost to the developer of the game but in part thanks to that inclusion IL2 series is today the best WWII simulator in the world, and that represent more sales for the developers.

Presumably correct. The developer does have a passion for the subject, but additional good PR and community involvement certainly can't hurt, nor does the addition of aircraft that the developer didn't directly make, but rather found of high enough quality, hurt when you consider that development labor hours is a killer, and the developer didn't have to pay it in those cases, although I suspect some modellers did get paid


Originally posted by CyberWings:
And finally the flight mode of every planes could be included in the game from day one, and could be controlled by developers but only the physic/skin model of the planes in conflict would be downloadable as free.


I disagree strongly that this is even possible. Count the planes in this sim right now that are flyable only, and them consider it took years to make them. Now toss into the equation that the sim engine from this one is not as sophisticated as the one in SoW:BoB. You're suggesting spending a few years on just flight models and testing, then releasing content as required. This doesn't seem like good sense even if I concede that it's even possible to make "correct" flight models for "all" the planes that flew in WWII. I'm sorry but I could not disagree more with this scenario you're describing


Originally posted by CyberWings:
And I agree "fan made" planes should be introduced at the developer's choice, not the fan's choice.

I certainly agree

Phil_K
06-01-2007, 03:40 PM
If Tempests were to be included in BoB, I might even consider buying the thing.

Spitfires and bf109s. Yuk!

History can be so dull.

Chivas
06-01-2007, 05:07 PM
I am a little surprised that anyone would not buy the next benchmark in WW2 combat sims because they're favorite aircraft or Theater isn't included in the initial release. Especially since inclusion of their favorite aircraft or theater could very well depend on the sales of the initial release of the SOW series.

I suppose 50 bucks can be a daunting purchace for a few of us, but even if your not a fan of the theater, there should still be more than 50 bucks worth of entertainment.

Tbag_13
06-01-2007, 05:57 PM
Chivas, well said and it obviously cannot be said often enough. This is our hobby and we are fortunate enough to have dedicated and motivated development teams like 1C or Shockwave. I don't know but I think their money is hard earned compared to other game genres. Why does Rowan not exist anymore? Many of us spend a fortune on our rigs but when it comes to the software that makes that power consuming device useful many get stingy . Not talking about the guys running a 2-3 year old rig though.

FritzGryphon
06-01-2007, 06:27 PM
I think it's unfortunate that some think of a flight sim as simply an engine that they can stick what they want into.

Like any other game, the content that is present dictates the gameplay that you have. In this case, there is a lot to be gained from having a well balanced BoB-specific planetset, especially in the context of new multiplayer modes like capture the airfield. I don't think there has ever been a planeset this good in any previous game.

If new planes are added in the future, I very much hope it's not the same random, pel-mel inclusion that was seen in the IL-2 series.

For example, the addition of an uberplane that makes all others obsolete (and thus you see nothing but that one plane being used). Or, airplanes included without any maps to fly them on, or enemy aircraft to fight (like P.11c with no Bf-109B, Bf-110c and no Poland maps).

The key to a great sim is well developed specific theatres, not "hay put in my fave plane plz". That random plane inclusion just leads to a bloated game and a lot of wasted man hours, without any actual improvement in the big-picture gameplay. If you take the time and work wasted on random addons, you could have a very well done theatre with balanced sides with well-covered roles, that is far more fun to play.

I'm ecstatic that the BoB plane set is so well covered, with 3 balanced nations and most major combat roles covered. Hopefully MG will be able to do the same with many other theatres in the future.

heywooood
06-01-2007, 06:57 PM
oh dear god here it all comes....the usa contingent wants its planes in teh bob or else.

uuufffff

I for one am looking forward to the Battle for its utter lack of us planes thanks...they can come soon enough in the later addons but for BoB there should be none. Besides - I want to see who the biggest whiners are and without us 'mericans theres no way to tell whos crying mostest...because we are loudest be sure.

VFS-214_Hawk
06-01-2007, 07:42 PM
and there is suppose to be a Korean air war game? C'mon http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Rjel
06-01-2007, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by heywooood:
oh dear god here it all comes....the usa contingent wants its planes in teh bob or else.
uuufffff


One poster = the entire USA contingent? Slight exaggeration, don't you think?

Bearcat99
06-01-2007, 08:14 PM
BoB is the first installment of a new series... there were no American planes to speak of in the BoB.. hence none in SoW:BoB. More than likely there will be some in the Med... and in the next installment... we shall see. That question is like asking why there arent any Zekes in a Med sim... or Spitfires at Pearl Harbor..

WTE_Googly
06-01-2007, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by CyberWings:
Why not? USA planes for BoB


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w9EksAo5hY&mode=related&search=

heywooood
06-01-2007, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by Rjel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heywooood:
oh dear god here it all comes....the usa contingent wants its planes in teh bob or else.
uuufffff


One poster = the entire USA contingent? Slight exaggeration, don't you think? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I stand by my exaggeration and raise you one overeaction....you just wait - they'll come...this is just the first faint flutter..the stampede comes with BoB release.

just like with Il2...remember?

WTE_Galway
06-02-2007, 01:21 AM
If I understand the original poster correctly he is not complaining about the lack of US planes in BoB.

He is referring to the situation (which also effects model making companies) where US manufacturers sue game companies for royalties if there tank/ship/aircraft is used in the game. He seems to believe that if those US aircraft were made by fans and given away for free the "pay big royalty for using US aircraft" problem would go away.

I actually think that is unlikely.

Korolov1986
06-02-2007, 01:44 AM
Anyone remember the first installment of IL-2?

I can't speak for anyone else, but the only reason I bought it was because there was a demo for IL-2 and none for CFS2. If IL-2 didn't have a demo, I probably would have bought CFS2 - and wouldn't have gotten into IL-2 until maybe FB+AEP.

Like it or not, favorite planes do matter. Consider what certain cultures consider iconic - out here in the US the P-51 is without a doubt, a icon. Put one of those on the box and folks will know what it's about. Put a P-51 on the box and try to sell it in Russia? Can't speak for them. But I'm pretty sure if you put a IL-2 or a La-5 on the box, it'd be iconic there, too! Likewise, a Spitfire is a icon in the UK, a 109 for Germany, etc.

In the end, I only hope BoB isn't so obscure and done to death that most people pass it for CFS3+addons.

Draughluin1
06-02-2007, 01:49 AM
No American aircraft hey? Obviously, you'd expect to see the Lockheed Hudsons of RAF Coastal Command somewhere over the channel. Any, here's a link that may help in this regard.

https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/EARS/Hallionpaper...leofbritainsep98.htm (https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/EARS/Hallionpapers/battleofbritainsep98.htm)

BfHeFwMe
06-02-2007, 01:58 AM
If were a contingent based bunch, than which exactly do you fall under?

My guess is turnip truck. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sleepzzz.gif

LEXX_Luthor
06-02-2007, 02:19 AM
hehe heywoood, BoB Region 1 DVD will have P-51Dora on the box cover (with burning Bf-109 behind). It has to.

CyberWings::
I'm sure that the inclusion of planes made by users has a cost to the developer.
If 3rd Party modder quality is higher for an aircraft, it enhances the sim for the customers. If the developer quality is higher for an aircraft, customers will generally use it instead of the 3rd Party aircraft.

Apparently, Oleg will be controlling theater sales by restricting map modding to small Online Dogfight size maps. Full size maps should generally be available only through the Moscow Bureau. Its my hope that dedicated modders like JG_Tuckie's Spanish Civil War team could get Oleg to make a full size Spain map. Ideally, Tuckie's work would be releaced in a Spanish Civil War addon. Oleg did poast some time ago that he would personally like to do this.

CyberWings
06-02-2007, 09:32 AM
Well, I forgot how much passion does the community of this sim has http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, I will use my free card here "English is not my first Language" anyway WTE_Galway understood me correctly.
One thing is true, BBB462cid you help me to understand a few things better.
For example I must confess I didn't know that the name of the new sim would be "Storm of War" with Battle of Britain as the first theatre.
I have to say that I'm not a fan of any plane or any nationality in particular, but I'm just concerned that the future addons of "Storm of War" with new theatres (Mediterranean, pacific, etc.) won't be accurate with the inclusion of some American planes.

Another thing:

FritzGryphon said "If new planes are added in the future, I very much hope it's not the same random, pel-mel inclusion that was seen in the IL-2 series. For example, the addition of an uberplane that makes all others obsolete (and thus you see nothing but that one plane being used). Or, airplanes included without any maps to fly them on, or enemy aircraft to fight (like P.11c with no Bf-109B, Bf-110c and no Poland maps)."

I think he's absolutely right, It would be a good idea that future addons follows the chronological theatres of the war. I wouldn't mind to wait 4 or 5 years from the release of Storm of War: Battle of Britain to be able to fly the Tempest if the addons were release chronologically with the correct maps and planes.

Philipscdrw
06-02-2007, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Korolov1986:
Anyone remember the first installment of IL-2?

I can't speak for anyone else, but the only reason I bought it was because there was a demo for IL-2 and none for CFS2. If IL-2 didn't have a demo, I probably would have bought CFS2 - and wouldn't have gotten into IL-2 until maybe FB+AEP.

The reason I got into Il-2 was because PCPilot magazine put the demo on the cover-disc. I played it, didn't really 'get' it IIRC (but was impressed that I could be gunner on the Il-2), then read the articles about how brilliant the sim was, and gave it another go.

Once I'd got the hang of the interface and controls, I revelled in Il-2 because it was simulating something I had known nothing about - the war between Russia and Germany. It was fascinating, taking off in a MiG-3 and trying to intercept the Fw189 (I think that was a stock mission in Il-2 v1.00, anyone remember it?).

So I hope there ARE American aircraft in BoB. Specifically, the Lockheed Hudson. I want to fly an aircraft which no-one (including myself, until it was mentioned here) remembers, fighting a fight that everyone's forgotten (RAF Coastal Command patrols). I want to drop 250lb anti-submarine bombs on U-boats and watch them shatter into pieces against the conning tower...

The DB-7 and Martin Maryland (the ones diverted from France, didn't they serve the RAF in this period?) would be good for similar reasons. When did the Turbinlight trials take place? It used an American aircraft...

I would like to fly for the Fleet Air Arm, flying Blackburn Skuas against Do24s. Catapult Aircraft Merchentmen Hurricane pilot - launch from a catapult on a bulk grain freighter, shoot down the Fw200 before it can radio any more directions to the U-boats, then try to land on Iceland or Ireland or just ditch next to the convoy...

By the way, the alleged Grumman copyright issue - we don't know anything about it. The expandability of SoW - we don't know anything about it. Speculating on ways around an issue we don't fully know using methods we don't fully know is nothing but a waste of time and Internets.

DuxCorvan
06-02-2007, 02:55 PM
Why not? USA chicks for raaaid.