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Altair_532
10-17-2007, 07:04 AM
Some people were saying the AI is slow.
They were also saying it the AI COMBAT
is ******ed. Moreover, like it's one at
a time simpleness.

My question is... What is the reason for this type of game play and feel?

Something tells me the Heavenly sword-like cut-screens during the action will be fully performed before anyone can touch you again.

Or

It could be that the AI is so stunned by your dazzling maneuvers they start shaking in there boots and won't attack you as aggressively.

After the all the game is said to be logical.
The AI are said to be smart. And reviews I've read from IGN people who've played said the latter of what I mentioned does happen.

I'm praying the AI is perfect and makes sense.

lpcrispo
10-17-2007, 08:18 AM
I think they sacrificed a little bit of realism for FUN and ENJOYABE gameplay!
if the NPC were attacking you all at the same time/were more aggresive... the game would not be that fun!
so they let the NPC attack one at a time... so you can pull of counter more effectively.
I'm ok with this!

GuStick93
10-17-2007, 08:55 AM
this actually is the most realistic fighting iv seen
At that time ppl wouldnt rush like that all together at a target,a bad swing and he could hit his own teammate,so they atacked one by one,second of all,patrice said that once uv killed a few of the guards,the other guard's morale will lower,so instead of being agressive and attacking,theyl go defensive

ParanoiD84
10-17-2007, 09:01 AM
I now that if you kill a couple of guards the rest will go defense,respect thats cool.

b-busher
10-17-2007, 09:24 AM
I,ve already posted a discussion just like this its called "best combat ever" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Pinjani10
10-17-2007, 08:13 PM
Have you ever seen in almost every action movie how 2 guys run at the hero and he ducks or moves and they ram into each other? Well imagine 5 guys doing that all of them wearing chain/plate mail and weilding swords it would cause a big mes :P

Hassan-Sabbah
10-17-2007, 08:51 PM
Originally posted here:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/7481087895/p/2

"First, I am buying this GAME. I think the GAME looks great and will play great. But...it is a GAME. So, bear that in mind as you read what follows...

I study martial arts (Both Asian and Western). Multiple attackers DO NOT attack one at a time...outside of movies, and GAMES. There are actually tactics that soldiers were taught when they out-numbered opponents. For instance, "Guard A" engages the target from the front with the intention of drawing the targets attention, "Guard B" will then attack from the rear while the target is occupied with "Guard A." This is just one of many common sense tactics for out-numbering opponents.

Those who keep posting that "Mideavel swordsmen attacked one at a time, when in numbers" are mistaken. That would negate the advantage of mutiple attackers, would it not? There are counters to this for the target (ie, placing your back to a wall to lessen the advantage...to a degree, and/or stay in constant movement if not surrounded). In all honesty, if you are surrounded by multiple attackers, things look rather bleak for you (in the real world).

BUT...

This is a GAME. Playability would be nill if it were TOO realistic as far as combat goes. From the way it looks (granted, I have not played it yet) I think there will still be plenty to worry about without being concerned for the "knife in the back"..."

As stated above I study martial arts, I am also a member of ARMA ( http://www.thehaca.com/ ) and various other SCA and anachronistic associations (Historical combat recreation). This idea that crusade era soldiers did not attack at the same time is not accurate at all! The risk of "hitting each other" is actually quite slight when one is trained, even at a minimal level.

But, this is a game...if you had all of the guards attacking you at one time, you are not going to last very long at all, and your gameplay would be quite frustrating. It is not a matter of guards not attacking all at once because "they would hit each other" in the process...which is severely mistaken, it is because it is a GAME.

Pinjani10
10-17-2007, 08:54 PM
Dont know if that post was directed at me but what I was saying is that they all dont attack you at the same time (also the tactics you stated are shown in some video)

Thumper1980
10-17-2007, 08:59 PM
Which arts do you practice out of curiosity Hassan?

I practiced Goju-Kai Karate for about 10 years and am now currently a Second Degree Brown Belt in Kenpo Karate.

fGuppy88
10-17-2007, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by Hassan-Sabbah:
Originally posted here:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/7481087895/p/2

"First, I am buying this GAME. I think the GAME looks great and will play great. But...it is a GAME. So, bear that in mind as you read what follows...


I study martial arts (Both Asian and Western). Multiple attackers DO NOT attack one at a time...outside of movies, and GAMES. There are actually tactics that soldiers were taught when they out-numbered opponents. For instance, "Guard A" engages the target from the front with the intention of drawing the targets attention, "Guard B" will then attack from the rear while the target is occupied with "Guard A." This is just one of many common sense tactics for out-numbering opponents.

Those who keep posting that "Mideavel swordsmen attacked one at a time, when in numbers" are mistaken. That would negate the advantage of mutiple attackers, would it not? There are counters to this for the target (ie, placing your back to a wall to lessen the advantage...to a degree, and/or stay in constant movement if not surrounded). In all honesty, if you are surrounded by multiple attackers, things look rather bleak for you (in the real world).

BUT...

This is a GAME. Playability would be nill if it were TOO realistic as far as combat goes. From the way it looks (granted, I have not played it yet) I think there will still be plenty to worry about without being concerned for the "knife in the back"..."

As stated above I study martial arts, I am also a member of ARMA ( http://www.thehaca.com/ ) and various other SCA and anachronistic associations (Historical combat recreation). This idea that crusade era soldiers did not attack at the same time is not accurate at all! The risk of "hitting each other" is actually quite slight when one is trained, even at a minimal level.

But, this is a game...if you had all of the guards attacking you at one time, you are not going to last very long at all, and your gameplay would be quite frustrating. It is not a matter of guards not attacking all at once because "they would hit each other" in the process...which is severely mistaken, it is because it is a GAME.

Watch the video at 53 seconds into it. two people attack him at once.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/19861.html

KlNDRED
10-17-2007, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by fGuppy88:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hassan-Sabbah:
Originally posted here:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/7481087895/p/2

"First, I am buying this GAME. I think the GAME looks great and will play great. But...it is a GAME. So, bear that in mind as you read what follows...


I study martial arts (Both Asian and Western). Multiple attackers DO NOT attack one at a time...outside of movies, and GAMES. There are actually tactics that soldiers were taught when they out-numbered opponents. For instance, "Guard A" engages the target from the front with the intention of drawing the targets attention, "Guard B" will then attack from the rear while the target is occupied with "Guard A." This is just one of many common sense tactics for out-numbering opponents.

Those who keep posting that "Mideavel swordsmen attacked one at a time, when in numbers" are mistaken. That would negate the advantage of mutiple attackers, would it not? There are counters to this for the target (ie, placing your back to a wall to lessen the advantage...to a degree, and/or stay in constant movement if not surrounded). In all honesty, if you are surrounded by multiple attackers, things look rather bleak for you (in the real world).

BUT...

This is a GAME. Playability would be nill if it were TOO realistic as far as combat goes. From the way it looks (granted, I have not played it yet) I think there will still be plenty to worry about without being concerned for the "knife in the back"..."

As stated above I study martial arts, I am also a member of ARMA ( http://www.thehaca.com/ ) and various other SCA and anachronistic associations (Historical combat recreation). This idea that crusade era soldiers did not attack at the same time is not accurate at all! The risk of "hitting each other" is actually quite slight when one is trained, even at a minimal level.

But, this is a game...if you had all of the guards attacking you at one time, you are not going to last very long at all, and your gameplay would be quite frustrating. It is not a matter of guards not attacking all at once because "they would hit each other" in the process...which is severely mistaken, it is because it is a GAME.

Watch the video at 53 seconds into it. two people attack him at once.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/19861.html </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just because it happenbs once, doesnt negate all that the guy wrote. Thats just a programming glitch nothing more. or if it isnt and was intentiannal, it most probably wont happen every 2 min

fGuppy88
10-17-2007, 10:14 PM
t the guy wrote. Thats just a programming glitch nothing more. or if it isn't and was intentiannal, it most probably wont happen every 2 min

no it doesn't. Watching most of the gameplay it was one on one but i saw a lot of them tried to go for your back.

An i also remember hearing Jade say there was still some glitches in the game when they played the demos.

I saw some crafty 2 on 1 teamwork but not much more then that.

and correct me if I'm wrong but we don't know if thats a glitch or not. Soi cant prove to you that you get attacked multiple times but you cant disprove it either. Not enough evidence. A lot of the best RPG games had one on one combat. One being fable

Also we are dealing with long swords. you got a 3 foot blade here that cuts both ways and thats heavy as hell. that means you have to stay three feet away from your friend when you swing.

it would be easy for the defender to manipulate the swords target as well.

Hassan-Sabbah
10-17-2007, 10:33 PM
@Pinjani10
Not at all, Sir! The "Do not attack at one time" is being posted ALL over this forum (as you can see, I addressed it in another thread as well), it was just a general statement not intended for anyone in particular.

My intent is not to make anyone "look stupid" or denigrate anyone at all...I mean, how many people are knowledgeable about archaic, outdated combat systems? But, I am curious as to where this faulty idea has come from...it seems to be everywhere on the forum.

@Thumper1980
Asian systems: Koga Ryu Ninjutsu (Uzaki lineage via Sensei James Loriega), 2nd Dan Brown belt. Genbukan (Iga) Ninpo Bugei (Tanemura lineage via Sensei Joeseph Svaral), Purple belt. Brazilian/Machado Jujutsu (via Sensei Renzo Gracie) just a lowly Green belt when I quit. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Western systems: Classical fencing (which encompasses) foil, Long sword (two hand) Short sword (half-hand), Rapier, dagger, and cane (via Maestros Ramon and Jeanette Acosta-Martinez), Provost rank. Spanish Navaja (Long knife, via James Loriega), Apprenzia rank.

(That all probably reads a lot more impressive than it actually is...I am probably older than most on this forum and have been at it for a LONG time. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif)

@fGuppy88
Absolutely. I am not saying that the programmers have the guards standing around like mannequins! The tactic I used was just an illustrative example...there are many, many more.

For clarification, I am not complaining about the games mechanics by any means! I happen to think it looks great so far (again, I have not actually played it yet...damn it!). Rather, I am addressing others complaints! Actual, real time, combat is not the pretty moves, and awesome blocks, flips and slashes, and heroics we all see in movies, books, and games...it is actually rather messy, chaotic, and can be rather unorganized. At least in my experience. Now, add to this Adrenaline overload, emotion (fear, anger, etc etc) and an actual fear for one's life...I am sure combat during the crusade era was not pretty at all, let alone many against one.

But...this is a game, and if they went over-board with a really-realistic combat system it would not be FUN to play at all. We would be dead at the first encounter between 3 or more guards! So, I think the complaints of "stupid AI" are not valid. From what I have seen so far, I think the combat system will be astounding...for a GAME, which is what it is. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

We all will know if it works well or not in a few weeks...

eliteassassin69
10-17-2007, 11:11 PM
wow thats impressive stil... i do kyokushin karate green belt. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif if you been here so long why do you only have 46 posts? just curius

Hassan-Sabbah
10-17-2007, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by eliteassassin69:
wow thats impressive stil... i do kyokushin karate green belt. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif if you been here so long why do you only have 46 posts? just curius

Thanks, but again...I have been studying these things off and on again for a long time...I go for a year or so, take break...get back into it...find something else that catches my interest....go back to something else. So, it really is not that impressive. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

And do not take my comment about my "Lowly green belt" as a derogatory statement...I have seen green belts kick the living **** out of black belts in a real life fight situation! And besides, one of my Sensei is fond of reminding us that "Belts are just to keep your pants from falling down"...so keep going! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The reason for the low post rate, to be honest, and not meant as insult; a lot of posts are just bantering arguments that I would rather not take part in. If you look at my post history, I usually post where I feel I can contribute to the subject in some way (I have a great interest in history, particularly Ismali/Hashishin Islamic/Crusade era and Weaponry/combat).

If I feel I cannot add to a posting in a productive way, I just "STFU" and lurk... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

sweetlou280
10-17-2007, 11:31 PM
ok back on topic....put yourself in the guards shoes. You and 10 buddies all have sharp, pointy pieces of steel that travel very fast...right through flesh.

Math Formula: Swords-being-swung = X
Accidental Injuries = Y

10x=9y

Altair Injuries = 1
Guard Injuries = 1 > 10

Who wins logically.....Altairs Cause.

Hassan-Sabbah
10-17-2007, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by sweetlou280:
ok back on topic....put yourself in the guards shoes. You and ten buddies all have sharp, pointy pieces of steel that travel very fast...right through flesh. And there is one guy in the middle of you, common sense would tell you that when one of your buddies is attacking someone, and there are sharp pointy pieces of steel flailing around...that you should stay away. Now if they were to drop their swords and just physically out number Altair...that would be a different story.

Not to be contentious, but no, it is not a different story. The training for unarmed combat and armed combat are (or at least, should be) the same. "The Hand that punches is the same hand that guides the blade."

Outside of training...look at it this way, Good ol' willy Monteffrat is a rather important guy, he is not going to have a bunch of green recruits guarding him. He is not an NHL coach who has a record of 3 and 18 and brings up a few rookies to spark some life into the team! His life is IMPORTANT, he is going to surround himself with experienced, trained veterans of some rather very nasty combat. Hell, just to live through a battle in those days must have been a feat in itself.

Bearing this in mind, do you honestly think these guys are not going to know where thier swords are...where they are going to hit the target...HOW they are going to hit the target...what the environment is like...WHERE their compatriots are? Let alone the fact that they would have been trained in "Battle" tactics...this means learning HOW to fight amongst large numbers of friends and foes alike.

I have seen it, I have been on both ends of it (Multiple against me and multiples with me against one...of course, and luckily with only Shinsai (bamboo swords) or dull blades). Trust me...ten swords can land ten hits to a single target in a crowd.

But, again...I am not complaining of this. I am playing a game as a form of escapism, I want to enjoy myself, I want to feel like the hero...I do not want to be dying at every encounter. If the devs were to make it too realistic it would not be fun, and hence, why waste my time playing it?

How did you arrive at the 10-9 ratio? Every swing of a sword is not an injury, and with trained, battle hardened fighters, that would be far from an actual number. Swords are not built for swinging alone, they have points on one end that are awfully good for stabing... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

sweetlou280
10-18-2007, 12:15 AM
the devil smiley is a nice touch dark prince

Thumper1980
10-18-2007, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by Hassan-Sabbah:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sweetlou280:
I have seen it, I have been on both ends of it (Multiple against me and multiples with me against one...of course, and luckily with only Shinsai (bamboo swords) or dull blades). Trust me...ten swords can land ten hits to a single target in a crowd.


From my experience however you don't fight with shinai like you would with a half handed sword, because if you spar for points as I often do, as soon as you put your guard down you get slapped on the wrists. Shanai and half handed swords have the same arc of attack though.

I'm not disputing your facts Hassan, different codes may teach different things.

Hassan-Sabbah
10-18-2007, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by sweetlou280:
the devil smiley is a nice touch dark prince

yeah...I like that smiley best! Not too sure about the Royalty part though... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

But seriously, I hope you do not think I am knocking the game, as I am not. In my opinion, if they made the guards all "bum rush" us at once (as they probably would in the real world) I do not think this game would have any playability. There is something about the feeling of being able to take down three or four guys and then hot-tailing it the hell out of there!

I have been waiting a long time for this game (since they anounced it as a PS3 exclusive, actually. I have a thing for the Assassins of history), and I really hope it lives up to it's potential. We will not know until Nov. 13th...but, I have a positive outlook for this game.



Originally posted by Thumper1980:
From my experience however you don't fight with shinai like you would with a half handed sword, because if you spar for points as I often do, as soon as you put your guard down you get slapped on the wrists. Shanai and half handed swords have the same arc of attack though.

I'm not disputing your facts Hassan, different codes may teach different things.

I absolutely agree. In actual "Real time" combat ANYTHING can happen...and "DoJo time" is a hell of a lot different than "street time (or in this case, "Damascus back alley time"). There is nothing more unpredictable than fighting (well, maybe Chaos theorem, or women...no offense to the fairer sex intended http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif). One can train and practice kata, techniques, what have you, and all it takes is stepping on a pebble the wrong way at the wrong time to throw everything out of wack. There are so many factors in an actual confrontation that can have an effect on the final outcome.

Of course, in a DoJo with a Shinai, or a studio with wooden or dulled blade, or on a field in mock armour with padded sword, certain liberties are taken one would not normaly take with live steel. But in my understanding, experience and historic knowledge, there is NO WAY a mob of armed men are going to sit and take turns with a single antagonist...no matter if it was Miyamoto Musashi (though, he is probably not the best example for my end of the debate)! Again, I am not claiming to be expert, I am merely stating this from my experience and understanding.

There were numerous times I could count the welts while the six guys around me laughed thier arses off in DoJo/studio. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif