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ARCHIE_CALVERT
12-29-2005, 12:10 PM
Air Car€¦ It€s the last one on the list here:

http://science.discovery.com/videogalleries/popular/popular.html

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Waldo.Pepper
12-29-2005, 04:36 PM
Wow.

2 points.

1. Too bad it is so darn ugly.

2. Too bad that because I am so tall I weigh too much and that it will likely only go 50km with me in it. (or with a load).

P.S. Air car! I thought it was going to fly!

neural_dream
12-29-2005, 05:21 PM
I too thought that would fly. Then I saw it. I did like though that video with the solar sailing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

ARCHIE_CALVERT
12-29-2005, 05:28 PM
Waldo... I copied this from the net in case you've never heard of the 'Tesla Engine'

I heard about the engine that Tesla invented that would deliver 10 horsepower for every 1 pound of weight and a 1000 h.p. engine that weighed 100 pounds. How is this true? How does it work and can you send me detailed drawings? How bulky is this engine? What about his heavier than air ship? Do you have pictures of it? Thanks. - 12/10/98

The engine you heard about is an invention called the Tesla disk turbine. Tesla's engine is simple in construction, consisting merely of shaft-mounted heat resistant disks that are placed within a cylindrical casing. In operation, high velocity gas is introduced tangentially at the periphery of the disks to flow between them in free spiral paths and exit through central exhaust ports. The slight viscosity of the propelling gas along with its adhesion to the faces of the disks combine to efficiently transfer the fuel's energy to the disks and on to the shaft. A major advantage which the Tesla turbine has over conventional turbines, and piston engines as well, is its relative simplicity of construction.

One important way to improve any turbine's performance to increase turbine inlet temperature. For every 350 degree Fahrenheit increase in turbine inlet temperature, the horse-power output of a given size turbine engine will double, without any increase in size and weight. Also the fuel efficiency will increase from 10% to 11% for each 350 degree F. of turbine inlet temperature increase. The high power-to-weight ratio that you mentioned might be achieved by a Tesla turbine if it were constructed out of a ceramic composite or some other exotic material that can resist the extremely high temperatures that result from the combustion of a fuel such as gasoline at the correct stochiometric fuel/air ratio. For fossil fuels, this temperature is about 3500 degrees Fahrenheit, which, in operation, is sufficiently high to soften any one of the presently available construction materials and subject an engine's rotor to stress related failure. A related factor is the basic symmetry of the Tesla turbine rotor disks allowing them to resist failure by eliminating the possibility of combined bending stresses that all conventional turbine blades experience.

So, you can see that while Tesla's bladeless turbine even now has the potential to out perform temperature limited bladed turbines, materials technology has not yet reached the point where truly optimal performance can be obtained.

I wonder if compressed air was used as the 'fuel' in a 'Tesla Turbine' It could create the power we are use to in today€s cars...

Waldo.Pepper
12-29-2005, 05:57 PM
Thanks Archie. I am definately as Crazy as Raaaid is, but not nearly as clever so the smarty talk is wasted on me.
Was this supposed to encourage me that the air car wll go 100km(ish) with me and a heavy load in it, because I don't think it will.

Still it may one day be useful.

p-11.cAce
12-29-2005, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by Archie:
One important way to improve any turbine's performance to increase turbine inlet temperature. For every 350 degree Fahrenheit increase in turbine inlet temperature, the horse-power output of a given size turbine engine will double, without any increase in size and weight. Also the fuel efficiency will increase from 10% to 11% for each 350 degree F. of turbine inlet temperature increase.

Uhhh..NO. Actually you have it backwards - any combustion based turbine suffers from a decrease in performance as the turbine inlet temp increases. This is due to a number of factors - the primary one being that hotter air = less density. A turbines performance vastly increases as inlet temp decreases - which is why a number of jet aircraft (as well as stationary gas turbines like those used in powerplants)utilize inlet fogging to decrease the inlet temp as well as boost air density. Quite simply the more mass passing through the turbine the more powerful it becomes. Hot & High is not only bad for prop planes but for turbines as well.

LEBillfish
12-29-2005, 10:03 PM
Though a "bladeless turbine" I would assume is actually LESS efficient......If they are moving "pistons" with compressed air then a "bladed" turbine coupled to a heavy flywheel sounds like (to an idgit like me) the way to go. Add to it somehow a generator to help run a pump, and possibly the range would be extended somewhat...........Lastly, in the case of such a "cold fuel", any heat generated (example from the pump).....Would seem to actually help if used to help heat the air (between the tank and turbine) causing it to expand more........As in this case I'd think expansion vs. density would be a plus.........

Obviously all just speculating.....

ARCHIE_CALVERT
12-29-2005, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by Archie:
One important way to improve any turbine's performance to increase turbine inlet temperature. For every 350 degree Fahrenheit increase in turbine inlet temperature, the horse-power output of a given size turbine engine will double, without any increase in size and weight. Also the fuel efficiency will increase from 10% to 11% for each 350 degree F. of turbine inlet temperature increase.

Uhhh..NO. Actually you have it backwards - any combustion based turbine suffers from a decrease in performance as the turbine inlet temp increases. This is due to a number of factors - the primary one being that hotter air = less density. A turbines performance vastly increases as inlet temp decreases - which is why a number of jet aircraft (as well as stationary gas turbines like those used in powerplants)utilize inlet fogging to decrease the inlet temp as well as boost air density. Quite simply the more mass passing through the turbine the more powerful it becomes. Hot & High is not only bad for prop planes but for turbines as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

p-11.cAce... This is a direct copy and paste job here, I just wanted to show some info for the TT to show Waldo. I'm not a turbine technician, far from it I was just fishing the wind...

ARCHIE_CALVERT
12-29-2005, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Though a "bladeless turbine" I would assume is actually LESS efficient......If they are moving "pistons" with compressed air then a "bladed" turbine coupled to a heavy flywheel sounds like (to an idgit like me) the way to go. Add to it somehow a generator to help run a pump, and possibly the range would be extended somewhat...........Lastly, in the case of such a "cold fuel", any heat generated (example from the pump).....Would seem to actually help if used to help heat the air (between the tank and turbine) causing it to expand more........As in this case I'd think expansion vs. density would be a plus.........

Obviously all just speculating.....

€œThis is only a toy,€ said Dr. Tesla. €œThere are only half a dozen disks€" €˜runners,€ I call them€"each less than three inches in diameter, inside of that case. They are just like the disks you saw on the first motor€"no vanes, blades or attachments of any kind. Just perfectly smooth, flat disks revolving in their own planes and pumping water because of the viscosity and adhesion of the fluid. One such pump now in operation, with eight disks, eighteen inches in diameter, pumps four thousand gallons a minute to a height of 360 feet.€
We went back into the big, well lighted office. I was beginning to grasp the new Tesla principle.
€œSuppose now we reversed the operation,€ continued the inventor. €œYou have seen the disks acting as a pump. Suppose we had water, or air under pressure, or steam under pressure, or gas under pressure, and let it run into the case in which the disks are contained€"what would happen?"
€œThe disks would revolve and any machinery attached to the shaft would be operated€"you would convert the pump into an engine,€ I suggested.
€œThat is exactly what would happen€"what does happen,€ replied Dr. Tesla. €œIt is an engine that does all that engineers have ever dreamed of an engine doing, and more. Down at the Waterside power station of the New York Edison Company, through their courtesy, I have had a number of such engines in operation. In one of them the disks are only nine inches in diameter and the whole working part is two inches thick. With steam as the propulsive fluid it develops 110-horse power, and could do twice as much.€
€œYou have got what Professor Langley was trying to evolve for his flying machine€"an engine that will give a horse power for a pound of weight,€ I suggested.
Ten Horse Power to the Pound.
€œI have got more than that,€ replied Dr. Tesla. €œI have an engine that will give ten horse power to the pound of weight. That is twenty-five times as powerful as the lightest weight engine in use today. The lightest gas engine used on aeroplanes weighs two and one-half pounds to the horse power. With two and one-half pounds of weight I can develop twenty-five horse power.€
€œThat means the solution of the problem of flying,€ I suggested.
€œYes, and many more,€ was the reply. €œThe applications of this principle, both for imparting power to fluids, as in pumps, and for deriving power from fluids, as in turbine, are boundless. It costs almost nothing to make, there is nothing about it to get out of order, it is reversible€"simply have two ports for the gas or steam, to enter by, one on each side, and let it into one side or other. There are no blades or vanes to get out of order€"the steam turbine is a delicate thing.€
I remembered the bushels of broken blades that were gathered out of the turbine casings of the first turbine equipped steamship to cross the ocean, and realized the importance of this phase of the new engine.
€œThen, too,€ Dr. Tesla went on, €œthere are no delicate adjustments to be made. The distance between the disks is not a matter of microscopic accuracy and there is no necessity for minute clearances between the disks and the case. All one needs is some disks mounted on a shaft, spaced a little distance apart and cased so that a fluid can enter at one point and go out at another. If the fluid enters at the centre and goes out at the periphery it is a pump. If it enters at the periphery and goes out at the center it is a motor.
€œCoupling these engines in series, one can do away with gearing in machinery. Factories can be equipped without shafting. The motor is especially adapted to automobiles, for it will run on gas explosions as well as on steam. The gas or steam can be let into a dozen ports all around the rim of the case if desired. It is possible to run it as a gas engine with a continuous flow of gas, gasoline and air being mixed and the continuous combustion causing expansion and pressure to operate the motor. The expansive power of steam, as well as its propulsive power, can be utilized as in a turbine or a reciprocating engine. By permitting the propelling fluid to move along the lines of least resistance a considerably larger proportion of the available power is utilized.
€œAs an air compressor it is highly efficient. There is a large engine of this type now in practical operation as an air compressor and giving remarkable service. Refrigeration on a scale hitherto never attempted will be practical, through the use of this engine in compressing air, and the manufacture of liquid air commercially is now entirely feasible.
€œWith a thousand horse power engine, weighing only one hundred pounds, imagine the possibilities in automobiles, locomotives and steamships. In the space now occupied by the engines of the Lusitania twenty-five times her 80,000 horse power could be developed, were it possible to provide boiler capacity sufficient to furnish the necessary steam.€

http://my.execpc.com/~teba/main.html


Perhaps he was mad, I dont know for sure, but without him we would not be living in the world we know to day...

LEBillfish
12-30-2005, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by ARCHIE_CALVERT:
Perhaps he was mad, I dont know for sure, but without him we would not be living in the world we know to day...

From what I have read the only madness supposedly in Tesla's work was his failure to document it.....He is the universally used example of why you should.

WarWolfe_1
12-30-2005, 08:04 AM
define maddness..........

BTW nice Av BillFish.

HotelBushranger
12-30-2005, 08:40 AM
Would be great to have world wide! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif But how would the tanks act in a collision?

ploughman
12-30-2005, 04:26 PM
Living in a town made of Limestone that's been rapidy turned to powder by the chemical response of Limestone to vehicle fumes I look forward to this sort of thing. Of course it isn't zero emission though, it's just moving the emissions somewhere else, like out the top of a power station chimney, but better there than 36 inches from the face of a child on a pavement I guess. As to whether or not it safe, its probably inherently safer than gasoline, but I wouldn't want a tin pressurised to 4,000 psi going off near me nads neither. It's all swings and round-a-bouts, there's more to the cost of motoring than the price of petrol that's for sure.

ARCHIE_CALVERT
12-30-2005, 05:26 PM
I definitely think it's the way to go, hybrids are not worth the trouble and agree with ploughman, it's just moving emissions somewhere else. But it will remain just a pipe dream, until a major car manufacturer bites the bullet and starts knocking them out at sensible prices and plough some of their revenue into fuel outlets€¦