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View Full Version : Loose Ends [SPOILERS]



SolidSage
12-24-2011, 02:34 PM
Thread purpose - Civil discussion about unresolved or inconsistent story facts, with a bit of well mannered snarkiness thrown in for good measure.
Nothing gets you thinking better than a good bit of provocation! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Here's some I have been musing:

- If the Animus allows us to relive memories, and deviating too far from them causes a desynch because you can't alter memories, then how can the Templars send agents into memories to kill Ezio/Desmond like in Brotherhood? If it didn't happen, it can't happen...right? Maybe they were just testing the idea?

- At the end of 2 (I think), Minerva addresses Ezio, and then Desmond directly. Desmond wasn't there when Ezio originally lived that memory so how does she know Desmond WILL be there? Is she part of the memory and IN the past just seeing the future or, is she existing across all time and communicating directly with Desmond at that moment?
And if the latter is the case, why does Ezio notice her talking to someone behind him?

- The previous 2 points beg the question, is it all predetermined destiny? In which case anything we do is going to happen that way anyway so what's the point.

- If 16 inside the Animus is just a recreation of his memories, then why is he all mentally hosed for a lot of the games, unstable, acting weird and then apparently capable of benevolent and selfless acts at will?

- If TOWCB are so supreme and awesome why can't they handle the issues themselves? jk

- In ACR, did Desmond NEED to complete Altair's memories for a repair of his own? Because I thought that after a child was born to an ancestor the memories were no longer pertinent after the fact. So in essence, Desmond only needed to rectify Ezio's memories and THEY just so happened to contain some Altair memoirs that weren't relevant to the reconstruction of D's mind?

If anyone has others to add, do it and I'll update the OP. Please don't bother with ones like "how come Ezio has a parachute?", I'm really looking for questions about the foundation concepts and laws in regards to the Animus, timelines and how they all balance out.

This is not a rant thread or an AC hate mail opportunity, I love all of the games and care enough to look a little deeper for the sake of b's'ing with you lot.

YuurHeen
12-24-2011, 02:50 PM
- templers arent send into the memories of ezio/desmond. in multi-player they are send into their own templer ancestors.

- minerva is part of the memory and knows desmond will watch the memory.

- i would say it is hard but possible to change destiny. something the 3 twcb are trying to.

- in acr s16 says something about that he found his nexus after he already was dead, so within the animus.

- well they failed already at the first solar-flare because 6 methods failed and were then to late. By the time of the solar-flare in 2012 they are aldready dead.

- well i think he indeed did not needed to relive those memories in order to separate himself from them because that happens when ezio is at altairs skeleton and knows whats in the library.

the true loose ends are lucy's-death, whats inside the great temple, how eve and adam escaped, who needs desmond to meet that has the dna of eve, who the second guy was at acb's end wenn they put desmond in the animus and where desmonds mother is.

Assassin_M
12-24-2011, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by YuurHeen:
where desmonds mother is.

Ahhhh, Des` Mom is out shopping for some groceries http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif, silly..

LightRey
12-24-2011, 02:56 PM
-Well the Templars are using an adapted animus program and don't so much seem to be reliving memories as they are simply playing in a simulator. Besides, they are using the memories of people who did actually kill people in those times and places for the Templars, so they're not deviating much.

-According to Jupiter it seemed to involve "calculations" and Minerva was apparently responsible for them. My guess is that they found a way to (very) accurately predict what was going to happen, and possibly how to influence it. They haven't explained much on the matter though, so this is mostly speculation.

-I don't think so. For one, both Juno and Juptiter say they are unable to know everything (Juno even says "the cross darkens the horizon", whatever that means), which indicates that not all is set in stone. There's also the point that, if everything is predetermined, why would they bother to send such messages in the first place?

-Well what he had left in ACII was made before he died (as is clear from his last message in ACII, in which he's saying goodbye to Lucy), which was during the time when he was still insane because of the bleeding effect. All I can say on why he can act so human is that it's a very good simulation. The border between simulation and reality fades away when simulations become good. However, we don't know just how much of S16's cognitive processes were simulated inside the animus. It could very well be that it was only a minor part of his self.

-They tried. 6 times according to Jupiter. Then the world ended and most of TWCB died. Aside from having to rebuild the world, they still had to work out the seventh method (which Desmond is supposed to use apparently) and it seems that they simply went extinct before they could complete it themselves. It could simply be that it has to be implemented right before the disaster. Since they can't live forever, they would have had need for someone like Desmond.

-Remember that those memories of Alta´r were also memories of Ezio, since he relived them as well. Alta´r had a story to tell to Ezio and he passed it on to Desmond. Alta´r's story in ACR is part of Ezio's story.

I have nothing to add as of yet, but that is mostly because I am tired and haven't spent much time thinking of anything to add.

Zokuno
12-24-2011, 02:59 PM
- Abstergo have found a way to alter memories and as a result they can match templars against each other in the animus. They are not sending templars into memories to kill Ezio/Desmond, they are instead training them using the Bleeding Effect so they can hunt Assassins outside the Animus.

- TWCB had a vast amount of knowledge and while it's not explained too well thus far, this is how they knew Desmond. They built temples around the world which held technology that will save the world from the next solar flare which happens in 2012. In these temples they left highly advanced holographic messages which were waiting for Desmond. As far as we know they all died in the last solar flare.

- Even if it is predetermined things aren't going to happen if they don't do anything. Desmond can't just sit around and expect the world to save itself.

- 16 was always capable of selfless acts. He went insane due to extended stints in the animus which caused him to lose his sense of time and identity. He painted information with his own blood and inserted important messages into the Animus so that someone could stop the templars, sounds pretty selfless to me.

- They tried, but died before they could execute their plan. It's implied that in the next game Desmond will have to find whatever it is in the Grand Temple that TWCB believed will stop the worlds end.

- Desmond needed to find the "Nexus" of Ezio, Altair and himself. Desmond's mind couldn't tell the difference between the 3 until they all "found each other" (if you have finished Revelations you'll know what I mean). I guess it was shear luck that Desmond's ancestors had this moment otherwise the Des' we all know and love would still be a vegetable inside the Animus.

SolidSage
12-24-2011, 05:16 PM
Most of these answers seem conclusive and align with my own perspectives.

- I did forget that it was a training simulation for the Templar agents (in SP story). So when Ezio wa hunting down the ancestors they were using, they were of course supposed to die. And if D messed up and failed and the Templar Agent Ancestor killed Ezio, I guess D would desynch, while the Animus would warn the T Agent, that their specific ancestor "didn't kill civilians/this particular guy, so don't do it again or you'll desynch".

- How they managed to predict his name and all that is pretty good work. Unless the Animus is accounting for that and just adjusting the pre- recorded message accordingly.

- Again, I am now thinking that the Animus adjusting the basic messages to specifically pertain to certain individuals might be the case. We obviously can't change the memories but information from them could allow us to alter the course of the future.

- I'm not sure if it was a recreation of 16's own instability or if the program inside the Animus was corrupted.

- I'm kind of expecting D to get some speshul artifactor power to accomplish this, because from my view, he doesn't seem to be as...capable...as either Altair or Ezio, yet supposedly, he is the only one with the ability to save us all.

- I do remember that Altair's memory replay was part of Ezio's final memories and that's what I was suggesting basically, that the Altair memories were only necessary for D's mental repair BECAUSE they were part of Ezio's memories. So basically, Altair's memories were actually complete for D and it was only Ezio's that were causing the issues? But then why the bleeding effect in 2 showing Altair memory? because D still had to do the one small memory that came later where he had to climb the tower and relive Altair and Maria right?

It's a pretty tight web they've weaved really. It's almost like some of the religions where they sow a couple of smart paragraphs in there that basically are catch alls. in this case, the Animus being able to alter everything to facilitate better conjoining.

dxsxhxcx
12-24-2011, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by SolidSage:

- And if D messed up and failed and the Templar Agent Ancestor killed Ezio, I guess D would desynch, while the Animus would warn the T Agent, that their specific ancestor "didn't kill civilians/this particular guy, so don't do it again or you'll desynch".

Desmond wouldn't desynch because for this to happen, their animi (If I'm not wrong this is the plural of animus) would need to be interacting with each other, what isn't happening...

what the agents do or don't in the multiplayer doesn't affect Desmond in any way, if somehow Ezio appears in front of the agents in the multiplayer they could kill him 1 million times that this wouldn't affect Desmond, the same happens with Desmond, while he's seeing Ezio's memories, he can kill the characters who are being used by the templar agents several times that this wouldn't affect them (the templars agents) during their training...

SolidSage
12-24-2011, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by dxsxhxcx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SolidSage:

- And if D messed up and failed and the Templar Agent Ancestor killed Ezio, I guess D would desynch, while the Animus would warn the T Agent, that their specific ancestor "didn't kill civilians/this particular guy, so don't do it again or you'll desynch".

Desmond wouldn't desynch because for this to happen, their animi (If I'm not wrong this is the plural of animus) would need to be interacting with each other, what isn't happening...

what the agents do or don't in the multiplayer doesn't affect Desmond in any way, if somehow Ezio appears in front of the agents in the multiplayer they could kill him 1 million times that this wouldn't affect Desmond, the same happens with Desmond, while he's seeing Ezio's memories, he can kill the characters who are being used by the templar agents several times that this wouldn't affect them (the templars
agents) during their training... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When we play and die as Ezio, Desmond is desynched correct? So in ACB SP, when Ezio has contracts on Templars that are being relived by the Modern Agents, when he hunts them down and kills them, the Agents must reach the end of their training session with the respective ancestor they are synched with. I mean, they can't keep reliving the memory of an ancestor after the term of their natural life expired right?
So in ACB, when Ezio kills them one after the other, the Agents experience it as the termination of their session by reaching the end of the respective ancestors memory data. Yes?

LightRey
12-25-2011, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by SolidSage:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dxsxhxcx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SolidSage:

- And if D messed up and failed and the Templar Agent Ancestor killed Ezio, I guess D would desynch, while the Animus would warn the T Agent, that their specific ancestor "didn't kill civilians/this particular guy, so don't do it again or you'll desynch".

Desmond wouldn't desynch because for this to happen, their animi (If I'm not wrong this is the plural of animus) would need to be interacting with each other, what isn't happening...

what the agents do or don't in the multiplayer doesn't affect Desmond in any way, if somehow Ezio appears in front of the agents in the multiplayer they could kill him 1 million times that this wouldn't affect Desmond, the same happens with Desmond, while he's seeing Ezio's memories, he can kill the characters who are being used by the templar agents several times that this wouldn't affect them (the templars
agents) during their training... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When we play and die as Ezio, Desmond is desynched correct? So in ACB SP, when Ezio has contracts on Templars that are being relived by the Modern Agents, when he hunts them down and kills them, the Agents must reach the end of their training session with the respective ancestor they are synched with. I mean, they can't keep reliving the memory of an ancestor after the term of their natural life expired right?
So in ACB, when Ezio kills them one after the other, the Agents experience it as the termination of their session by reaching the end of the respective ancestors memory data. Yes? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not really. Even if we assume they're reliving their actual memories, they would just be "in between" important memories, like in SP when you're free roaming. It's basically like free roaming with Ezio or Alta´r, but with more people on one server.

dxsxhxcx
12-25-2011, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by SolidSage:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dxsxhxcx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SolidSage:

- And if D messed up and failed and the Templar Agent Ancestor killed Ezio, I guess D would desynch, while the Animus would warn the T Agent, that their specific ancestor "didn't kill civilians/this particular guy, so don't do it again or you'll desynch".

Desmond wouldn't desynch because for this to happen, their animi (If I'm not wrong this is the plural of animus) would need to be interacting with each other, what isn't happening...

what the agents do or don't in the multiplayer doesn't affect Desmond in any way, if somehow Ezio appears in front of the agents in the multiplayer they could kill him 1 million times that this wouldn't affect Desmond, the same happens with Desmond, while he's seeing Ezio's memories, he can kill the characters who are being used by the templar agents several times that this wouldn't affect them (the templars
agents) during their training... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When we play and die as Ezio, Desmond is desynched correct? So in ACB SP, when Ezio has contracts on Templars that are being relived by the Modern Agents, when he hunts them down and kills them, the Agents must reach the end of their training session with the respective ancestor they are synched with. I mean, they can't keep reliving the memory of an ancestor after the term of their natural life expired right?
So in ACB, when Ezio kills them one after the other, the Agents experience it as the termination of their session by reaching the end of the respective ancestors memory data. Yes? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

when Abstergo collected the info about the characters from the people who were related to them, in the moment they (the ancestors) had a child we couldn't see their memories anymore so even if what we do in SP could affect what the templar agents are doing in multiplayer we wouldn't be able to see their deaths because they already had a child.


I think the multiplayer can be compared to the VR training room we have in ACB, the templar agents aren't seeing their ancestors memories in the multiplayer, some of them probably aren't even related to the characters they're using, the city and the characters were made based on other people's memories and now are being used by the agents for their training..

SolidSage
12-25-2011, 10:15 PM
Okay, I'll buy it as a free roam session. But in that, if they (the agent) fight with Desmond (using ancestors), are you saying that the one that dies, does not experience a desynch? So yes, the training session wouldn't be over, but they would have to reload right?

Even in the Mp, when you get snuffed, it's a desynch.

ibr-vasif
12-26-2011, 01:55 AM
Originally posted by Assassin_M:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by YuurHeen:
where desmonds mother is.

Ahhhh, Des` Mom is out shopping for some groceries http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif, silly.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The only time I ever saw a mention of her was when I accessed the Abstergo Dossier #11. If you take a look at the second picture within that file, you will see the known ancestors of Desmond. It says that his father is William Miles, which the majority of us already knew. However, his mother is not given a name. She is stated as "mtDNA."

dxsxhxcx
12-26-2011, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by SolidSage:
Okay, I'll buy it as a free roam session. But in that, if they (the agent) fight with Desmond (using ancestors), are you saying that the one that dies, does not experience a desynch? So yes, the training session wouldn't be over, but they would have to reload right?

Even in the Mp, when you get snuffed, it's a desynch.

yes, if someone "dies" while using the animus they'll desync but the agents will never fight Desmond using the ancestors, the characters the Abstergo agents are using for their training appear in the single player because they're part of the story, but during the single player they aren't being controlled by the agents, they are just like any other NPC in the game, in multiplayer they're having a different experience, they aren't seeing their ancestors memories like Desmond, they're just using the characters in a environment created by the animus to gain their abilities via the Bleeding Effect, the agents probably never saw the memories of the characters they're in the multiplayer...

SolidSage
12-26-2011, 03:26 AM
Originally posted by dxsxhxcx:

yes, if someone "dies" while using the animus they'll desync but the agents will never fight Desmond using the ancestors, the characters the Abstergo agents are using for their training appear in the single player because they're part of the story, but during the single player they aren't being controlled by the agents, they are just like any other NPC in the game, in multiplayer they're having a different experience, they aren't seeing their ancestors memories like Desmond, they're just using the characters in a environment created by the animus to gain their abilities via the Bleeding Effect, the agents probably never saw the memories of the characters they're in the multiplayer...

That makes sense. In ACB I took the Templar Agent Icons on my map to mean the future Agent, loaded in to the memory replay and futzing with stuff.
I can't recall exactly what the story said. I'll take your word for it.

HouseAntarctic
12-26-2011, 11:53 AM
-Why couldn't TWCB predict if Desmond saves the world or not? They seemingly predicted everything up to when he entered the animus and relived Ezio in the vault. They couldn't go a few months further?

-Don't worry about Desmond's mom, she's probably in the kitchen

-Will we actually "find" Eve as in meet her? Or will we relive memories of her?

-What is the sixth sense? My theory is that it's the ability to relive ancestors (and possibly live through future events) without use of the animus or risk of bleeding effect.

-Who is the current templar grandmaster?

-Is there any inspiration for the "Father of Understanding"? Is it just a templar saying or is it a person or TWCB?

LightRey
12-26-2011, 02:42 PM
@HouseAntarctic

-Well "the Cross darkens the horizon" apparently.

-lol

-Likely relive memories or maybe not even that. Juno never mentioned Eve after all.

-Well that is part of it at least, but that's just a symptom.

-No freaking idea

-Maybe Cain, as he's supposedly the first Templar.

Sun.Tzu.GE
12-27-2011, 10:29 AM
They introduced some great and mysterious concepts in the story and they didn't know how to explain them without ruining the story.It's clear that they didn't plan ahead when they wrote the story.I also heard that they replaced the original writer for the story.I may be wrong.
That is why I hate ubisoft for ruining my favorite video game which had great potential but it fell flat. I like that they introduce new questions in every game but they forget to answer the old ones. I still don't know where is the revelation ???? I almost regret buying the collector's edition.They didn't explain!!!

<span class="ev_code_RED">Please do not bypass the Language Filter.</span>

SolidSage
12-27-2011, 12:13 PM
@Sun Tzu
(I like that book you wrote by the way http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif)

Yes, there are legitimate discrepancies with all the Creed games, but in all, it's HELLA FUN to play. Come on, you know you luuuv it.