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View Full Version : 109G and P51D relative climb ratio error



XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 06:33 PM
One effective ploy used by 109 jocks to get out of trouble was the spiral climb. This has also been effective in FB up to now.

Since installing the much awaited patch I have noticed that the so called "climb ratio corrections" made has introduced climb errors instead.

I have used the spiral climb a lot of times while flying the 109G6 (throttle to the firewall no 103% tricks). At 250 km/h IAS a 109G6 should climb like a bird and leave a P51D standing (ratio should be around 3500 ft/m versus 4500 ft/m).

I verified my experience by setting up an AI engagement at 1000 m head on with a P51D ace. After avoiding getting shot down in the ensuing head on pass, the P51 whipped around while I did a gentle pullout to best climb speed. And lo and behold! A miracle! the P51D slowly but surely crept up and blasted me! In V.1, I could continue to climb, build up my energy and return with a vengence!

Not a very scientific experiment I grant you but there is still something wrong with this picture....

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 06:33 PM
One effective ploy used by 109 jocks to get out of trouble was the spiral climb. This has also been effective in FB up to now.

Since installing the much awaited patch I have noticed that the so called "climb ratio corrections" made has introduced climb errors instead.

I have used the spiral climb a lot of times while flying the 109G6 (throttle to the firewall no 103% tricks). At 250 km/h IAS a 109G6 should climb like a bird and leave a P51D standing (ratio should be around 3500 ft/m versus 4500 ft/m).

I verified my experience by setting up an AI engagement at 1000 m head on with a P51D ace. After avoiding getting shot down in the ensuing head on pass, the P51 whipped around while I did a gentle pullout to best climb speed. And lo and behold! A miracle! the P51D slowly but surely crept up and blasted me! In V.1, I could continue to climb, build up my energy and return with a vengence!

Not a very scientific experiment I grant you but there is still something wrong with this picture....

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 06:36 PM
I read, heard, understood that planes that haven't been player modeled aren't quite as accurate in the flight model as those that have. So the P-51D that you're fighting probably isn't as accurate as the plane you're flying.

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XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 08:30 PM
the 109 is one cool play and still is it just as to be learned again guys it still is deadly in twos and used in skilled hands

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 08:34 PM
The AI planes have't heard of overheating, or gravity.

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XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 09:36 PM
When we can fly it take a P-51 up & have a friend take a 109 & then try it. The whole having a dogfight with the AI comparison has too many little variables.



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XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 09:40 PM
try wider spirals with less pitch, its fine


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XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 11:40 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- The AI planes have't heard of overheating, or
- gravity.
-
- 25th_Buzz

They haven't heard of deflection shooting either, so it sort of evens out.

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 07:35 AM
What do you think the spiral climb should allow you to do? climb faster? Nay. Thank if it this way. Your adding aerodynamic draw to the airframe by having the alarons fully deflected. Plus the wings having to push air away from its path. A spiral climb should slow down your climb in general. BUT!!! The key function to a spiral climb is that it presents a harder target untill you get a safe distance away from the target.

From my understanding, spiral climbs were used AFTER a bounce. Not on level attacks.

This means the pilot performing the spiral climb should have a lot more energy then the target behind him and just needs to present a hard target untill your energy advantage takes you out of the persuers gun range. It will kill it a bit more energy then a standard climb.

Now if you expect to be in a tight turn fight with someone, and just spiral climb away from him at the drop of a hat, your WRONG!!!!!

Remember, just because you read that Luftwaffa pilots often escaped persuit using a spiral climb does not mean it works for every situation. You must take situation under consideration and find out HOW that Luftwaffa pilots were using this tactic and in WHAT situations.

Gib

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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 07:46 AM
gibbage gets my "POST OF THE DAY AWARD" .... great point and well taken . we all used the spiral in pre patch to escape and stall out all pursuers chasing us in level flight. gibbage brings up the fact that this shouldnt have worked in real life and was only used after a dive on an unsuspecting foe.... this stops at least one post patch whine ....

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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 10:44 AM
Best climb speed for 109s is 270kph IAS. Also, try very gentle turnings duirng the spiral climb, on my part I merely bank 20-30 degree the plane into the direction of the wanted turn, and not even pull back on stick. Otherwise you bleed speed quickly...

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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 12:38 PM
RedDeth wrote:
- gibbage gets my "POST OF THE DAY AWARD" .... great
- point and well taken . we all used the spiral in pre
- patch to escape and stall out all pursuers chasing
- us in level flight. gibbage brings up the fact that
- this shouldnt have worked in real life and was only
- used after a dive on an unsuspecting foe.... this
- stops at least one post patch whine ....


But he forgot, that the pursuer has to do the same "spiralclimbing" as the 109 in front of him. And the most important thing about the spiralclimb is, that everytime the P51 tries to shoot the Me, it has to climb even steeper, because of the needed deflectionshooting.
So, the pursuer loses even more energy + it has a lower climbrate.

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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 01:18 PM
Gibbage1 wrote:
-
-
- This means the pilot performing the spiral climb
- should have a lot more energy then the target behind
- him and just needs to present a hard target untill
- your energy advantage takes you out of the persuers
- gun range. It will kill it a bit more energy then a
- standard climb.
-
- Now if you expect to be in a tight turn fight with
- someone, and just spiral climb away from him at the
- drop of a hat, your WRONG!!!!!
-
-
Errr not from what I understand, if you have more energy than your target and overshoot him you should just climb, dive or even extend, why decrease your own energy advantage. Spiral climb is somthing reserved for the 109s versus eneimes behind with similar or greater energy levels, ie you're trying to force him to burn his energy advantage while creating a situation where the 109s superior sustained climb rate comes into play to turn the tables.

I mean really think about it, why go into an energy wasting spiral climb when you have the advantage?

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 01:25 PM
ahahah yeah, Gibbage1's logics are completely flawed.

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 05:54 PM
"But he forgot, that the pursuer has to do the same "spiralclimbing" as the 109 in front of him. And the most important thing about the spiralclimb is, that everytime the P51 tries to shoot the Me, it has to climb even steeper, because of the needed deflectionshooting. So, the pursuer loses even more energy + it has a lower climbrate."


Not necessarily. It really depends on the relative E-state.

If the E advantage on the plane initiating the spiral climb is not significantly higher, the pursuer can just head his plane directly to the estimated point of arrival of the Bf109 as he spiral climbs - there's no reason for him to "follow the same path".

Effectively, the pursuer can 'cut the corners' on a plane initiating a vertical maneuver in almost every case, which is why a plane going vertical needs an E-advantage fairly sufficient enough to rope the enemy despite those problems.

That is usually the part where inexperienced pilots misjudge the relative E-states of the two planes - they see that they are extending from the enemy, and often mistakenly think that the small margin of advantage in relative speed would also mean that the pursuing plane would not be able to follow him in a vertical/spiral.

Well, that's why people get shot down in poor BnZ attempts in most cases.

Also, the enemy may not attempt a deflection shooting at all, and his main point of interest could be just following the spiral climb to keep the offensive going - the coup-de-grace can always come later. In that case, when the relative E-adv is not enough, the spiral climbing plane is in a shi*load of trouble when he reaches the limit of his maneuver.

To avoid this, in a co-alt situation, a better climbing plane must do a spiraling climb that is really slow in effectivity and really wide in radius, so the fight essentially becomes a contest of continuous climb rate, rather than a contest of E-fighting...until the differences in climb rate finally generate a large altitude gap between you and your pursuer.

But think about it - if you want to do that, you can just climb straight and achive the same results.

What Gibbage1 said, has more variables than just that, but it is generally correct.

The main advantage in spiral climbing is not in its capability to conserve E. It is because a straight climb will place the pursuer at your low 6, and put you in the danger of losing the sight of him for a considerable amount of time. The spiral climb is sacrificing a bit of more E, in exchange for continuous observation and easier steps to entering reversals, than compared to a straight climb(which, you'll need to change directions full 180 degrees when the enemy is still behind you)

Do not be fooled by the same name - going into a "spiral climb" after a bounce(which puts you in very high E-adv), and then pursuing the enemy again, is very different from attempting a spiral climb against an enemy you met co-alt, co-e situation.

In the latter situation, the spiral climb is NOT a maneuver which will give you an advantage in energy and tactical status. It is but merely a RESULT of your other maneuvers and merge tactics which draws out your opponent's mistakes(which only after that, you will gain enough E-adv to attempt a spiral climbing reversal)

You have to do other things first, to make your enemy blow E.. and only then, will you be able to use the spiral climb to initiate a reversal and critically secure your offensive status. Meet a plane at same alt, and then trying a pure spiral climb, is most likely suicide.



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Message Edited on 08/21/0301:59AM by kweassa

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 06:07 PM
You sound like you know what you're talking about. Fly online and record tracks for me please so I can study.

kweassa wrote:
- "But he forgot, that the pursuer has to do the
- same "spiralclimbing" as the 109 in front of him.
- And the most important thing about the spiralclimb
- is, that everytime the P51 tries to shoot the Me, it
- has to climb even steeper, because of the needed
- deflectionshooting. So, the pursuer loses even more
- energy + it has a lower climbrate."
-
-
-
- Not necessarily. It really depends on the relative
- E-state.
-
-
- If the E advantage on the plane initiating the
- spiral climb is not significantly higher, the
- pursuer can just head his plane directly to the
- estimated point of arrival of the Bf109 as he spiral
- climbs - there's no reason for him to "follow
- the same path".
-
-
- Effectively, the pursuer can 'cut the
- corners' on a plane initiating a vertical
- maneuver in almost every case, which is why a plane
- going vertical needs an E-advantage fairly
- sufficient enough to rope the enemy despite those
- problems.
-
-
- That is usually the part where inexperienced pilots
- misjudge the relative E-states of the two planes -
- they see that they are extending from the enemy, and
- often mistakenly think that the small margin of
- advantage in relative speed would also mean that the
- pursuing plane would not be able to follow him in a
- vertical/spiral.
-
-
- Well, that's why people get shot down in poor BnZ
- attempts in most cases.
-
-
- Also, the enemy may not attempt a deflection
- shooting at all, and his main point of interest
- could be just following the spiral climb to keep the
- offensive going - the coup-de-grace can always come
- later. In that case, when the relative E-adv is not
- enough, the spiral climbing plane is in a shi*load
- of trouble when he reaches the limit of his
- maneuver.
-
-
- To avoid this, in a co-alt situation, a better
- climbing plane must do a spiraling climb that is
- really slow in effectivity and really wide in
- radius, so the fight essentially becomes a contest
- of continuous climb rate, rather than a contest of
- E-fighting...until the differences in climb rate
- finally generate a large altitude gap between you
- and your pursuer.
-
-
- But think about it - if you want to do that, you
- can just climb straight and achive the same results.
-
-
-
-
- What Gibbage1 said, has more variables than just
- that, but it is generally correct.
-
-
- The main advantage in spiral climbing is not in its
- capability to conserve E. It is because a
- straight climb will place the pursuer at your low 6,
- and put you in the danger of losing the sight of him
- for a considerable amount of time. The spiral
- climb is sacrificing a bit of more E, in exchange
- for continuous observation and easier steps to
- entering reversals, than compared to a straight
- climb(which, you'll need to change directions full
- 180 degrees when the enemy is still behind you)
-
-
- Do not be fooled by the same name - going into a
- "spiral climb" after a bounce(which puts you in very
- high E-adv), and then pursuing the enemy again, is
- very different from attempting a spiral climb
- against an enemy you met co-alt, co-e situation.
-
-
- In the latter situation, the spiral climb is
- NOT a maneuver which will give you an
- advantage in energy and tactical status. It is but
- merely a RESULT of your other maneuvers and
- merge tactics which draws out your opponent's
- mistakes(which only after that, you will gain enough
- E-adv to attempt a spiral climbing reversal)
-
-
- You have to do other things first, to make your
- enemy blow E.. and only then, will you be able to
- use the spiral climb to initiate a reversal and
- critically secure your offensive status. Meet a
- plane at same alt, and then trying a pure spiral
- climb, is most likely suicide.
-
-
-
-
-
------------
- Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns
- to..
-
- "It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and
- proud of it!
-
-
- Message Edited on 08/21/03 01:59AM by kweassa

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 07:26 PM
I entirely agree with your analysis and maybe I was a bit quick with what I wanted to get through!

I just wanted to make the point that I think that if improvements are to be made in FB then they should move the performance parameters of the planes in the right direction towards greter realism. This, I think, is one of the main attraction of the game.

It was refreshing to get a sensible reply while it has been equally sad to see some of the posts yapping about whining when ways of improving the game are discussed.

Now, a P51 should not be able to catch a 109 as long as the 109 has made a proper extension before entering the spiral climb.

I still think the spiral climb is great even if two fighters meet with E-parity.

Consider this: The 109 and P51 meet at the same altitude with about the same E state. After passing the P51 I continue relatively straight for a few secs to conserve energy and to make an extension.

What can the P51 do?:

1) Make a hard horisontal or vertical manouver to try to get on my tail as quickly as possible. In this case he will lose a lot of momemtum due to the high induced drag and I will quickly outdistance him and can spiral (gently, no slats, keeping a bead on him) and build up my E advantage.

2) He can also choose to conserves energy either by pulling up gently or turning gently. But the thing is, he's heading in the opposite direction and with a gentle E conserving manouvre will give me what I want: distance.

Either way I will gain what I want: an initial distance between him and me so I can leasurly continue my climb without any bothersome tracer.

So I still think I a good way of using Gustav is to use it's strength by standing back and assessing the situation with my gentle climbing turn (after getting the extension)and if he chooses to stay and fight, be patient and build up my E level quicker than him and then come back to haunt him.

In a one-on-one engagement, I just can't see how a P51 or any other fighter with roughly the same performance but inferior climb can beat that (if he chooses to stick around)

What's your opinion?

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 08:04 PM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- What do you think the spiral climb should allow you
- to do? climb faster? Nay. Thank if it this way.
- Your adding aerodynamic draw to the airframe by
- having the alarons fully deflected. Plus the wings
- having to push air away from its path. A spiral
- climb should slow down your climb in general.
- BUT!!! The key function to a spiral climb is that
- it presents a harder target untill you get a safe
- distance away from the target.
-
- From my understanding, spiral climbs were used AFTER
- a bounce. Not on level attacks.
-
- This means the pilot performing the spiral climb
- should have a lot more energy then the target behind
- him and just needs to present a hard target untill
- your energy advantage takes you out of the persuers
- gun range. It will kill it a bit more energy then a
- standard climb.
-
- Now if you expect to be in a tight turn fight with
- someone, and just spiral climb away from him at the
- drop of a hat, your WRONG!!!!!
-
- Remember, just because you read that Luftwaffa
- pilots often escaped persuit using a spiral climb
- does not mean it works for every situation. You
- must take situation under consideration and find out
- HOW that Luftwaffa pilots were using this tactic and
- in WHAT situations.
-
- Gib
-
I never said it would work in every situation!

I was talking about a hypothetical situation in which the P51 and 109 met at E parity on the same altitude.

After pasing the P51 the 109 makes an extension by going straight and then pulls up in a gentle spiral climb (no max deflection on any aerodynamic surface!) This will give the distance necessary to the P51 with retained E. After getting the distance the speed is converted to altitude and the spiral climb is initiated.

Also in addition to the better climbrate the climb angle on the 109 was steeper than most other fighters and a p51 trying to catch up by going inside the turn would be going slower than he's best climbing speed and would therefore be left behind.

Another reason to spiral instead of going straight is that you can keep an eye on the "indianer" while building up your E quicker than him.

When you have bulit up a sufficient E dvantage, it's showtime!

Holtzauge (letzte man in der idiotenreihe)

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 09:11 PM
Holzauge sei' wachsam.

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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 09:42 PM
Is it possible that P~51 pilot who knows what he/she is doing will ignore the passing Fb109 and fly on looking for another target? -- P~51 possibly extending away in direction opposite of this gentle "spiral climb" and so put the Fb109 out of the air combat picture entirely? After all, the Fb109 wants to "increase distance," as the P~51 pilot would love that too if he/she were to go looking for another target.

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 04:14 AM
doesnt look to me like most of the ppl replying to Gibbage understand what Gibbage was meaning

it is this : ........
a spiral climb will waste more E than a stright climb of the sam Degree

it a basic , you dont need a degree to understand it

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 06:09 PM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- Is it possible that P~51 pilot who knows what he/she
- is doing will ignore the passing Fb109 and fly on
- looking for another target? -- P~51 possibly
- extending away in direction opposite of this gentle
- "spiral climb" and so put the Fb109 out of the air
- combat picture entirely? After all, the Fb109 wants
- to "increase distance," as the P~51 pilot would love
- that too if he/she were to go looking for another
- target.
-
-
Agreed. It would be dumb of the P51 to stick around and wait while letting the 109 build up enough E to stay on top of him and zoom down at leisure.

And you are right that the P51 has the option to disengage with the speed advantage he has since the Gustav with it's "beule" is so slow. So I guess from a P51 standpoint it would be best to check out how the 109 acts after the initial pass and go after easier game if he tries to use his climb advantage. However, if the 109 does something stupid like a tight turn then it's showtime!

Holzauge (immer letzte mann)

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 06:31 PM
Something may be wrong with this though. I set up a fight between a hurricane and an emil. I flew the hurricane and shot the emil down. Kind of weird since the emil can climb much better than hurricane. This was on 1.1b on full realism, with cockpit always on.