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View Full Version : Oleg - Allowing for a back six view



XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 03:09 PM
All this talk about trackir and back six view reminded me of a section in Fighter Combat by Robert Shaw. I went to go look it up (it's a great section, talks as well about how hard it is to track AC and what a skill it is - i should post that next...)


Fight Combat by Robert Shaw:

p375

"It is often necessary to turn almost completely around in the seat in either direction to look behind...Restraining straps must be designed and adjusted to allow this freedom of movement"

also.

"...flight controls should be designed to be used by either hand, so the pilot can rotate his body completely around in either direction and still fly the airplane".



Granted - we don't have G effects - but to say you can't look behind you is silly.

Also - just a fyi - it's not like other games, there is a seat and frame behind the pilot view from the screenshots I've seen. It's not a 'totally unrestricted view'.

I think the best solution is for Oleg to simply make this available for everyone however - and he has the control to do this.

So - Oleg, what is your comment on this?

Thanks

S!
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Message Edited on 06/22/0302:11PM by Recon_609IAP

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 03:09 PM
All this talk about trackir and back six view reminded me of a section in Fighter Combat by Robert Shaw. I went to go look it up (it's a great section, talks as well about how hard it is to track AC and what a skill it is - i should post that next...)


Fight Combat by Robert Shaw:

p375

"It is often necessary to turn almost completely around in the seat in either direction to look behind...Restraining straps must be designed and adjusted to allow this freedom of movement"

also.

"...flight controls should be designed to be used by either hand, so the pilot can rotate his body completely around in either direction and still fly the airplane".



Granted - we don't have G effects - but to say you can't look behind you is silly.

Also - just a fyi - it's not like other games, there is a seat and frame behind the pilot view from the screenshots I've seen. It's not a 'totally unrestricted view'.

I think the best solution is for Oleg to simply make this available for everyone however - and he has the control to do this.

So - Oleg, what is your comment on this?

Thanks

S!
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Message Edited on 06/22/0302:11PM by Recon_609IAP

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 06:01 PM
bump

S!
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XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 06:02 PM
More real pilot accounts added here soon.

Rather than argue out of some abstract idea of right and wrong - show some proof folks.

S!
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XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 06:09 PM
I agree, and suggeted it in another thread, before I saw this one. Make it available to everyone, and end the so called cheating.

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XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 07:29 PM
IMO the 6 view is the third most important view you can have. Only the gun site, and up view are more important. Claiming that it don't matter, as some have done, is nonsense.

The Internet is like Pandora,s box. Once anything is released on it. You cant put it back in the box. The guy who posted those drivers here yesterday, was not even close to being the first I have seen. The only way to level the playing field again, is to make that view available to everyone. No matter what view system they prefer.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 11:02 PM
I think what has actually happened, is through this, it has shown that the view given in those drivers is more realistic than the view given, based upon facts presented by fighter pilots themselves.

Some aircraft, by their very nature don't present this view (ie. i16) - and this is good - others, in particular, late p47, etc.. have a better back view. It's a great thing to show the cockpit's of different AC reflected differently, including the seat blocking views.



S!
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XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 11:09 PM
I dont agree with the full 360 view, I think spending effort into making the old track ir drivers not work after the patch would be wise so its fair for all. Also we need a lean left and right for looking past cockpit framing and if you lean left or right and look behind you, you can see the back of the chair

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XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 11:12 PM
Another quote from Robert Shaw showing pilots could do this:


This one is regarding rear view mirror and shows the continued necessity for freedome of movement in cockpit:

(p 376 Fighter Combat)

"Rear-view mirrors have been used on many fighters for some time now, generally with good success. When properly placed they can significantly expand the pilots' rearward field of view. This is the purpose to which they can be put, however, THEY SHOULD NOT BE USED AS AN EXCUSE FOR NOT TURNING THE ENTIRE HEAD AND BODY TO COVER THOSE AREAS THAT CANNOT BE SEEN WITHOUT THE AID OF MIRRORS"



(Caps added by me)

S!
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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 01:14 AM
Bump.

In favour of allowing back six view for ALL.
I agree 100% with Easymo.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 01:26 AM
An exemple with the 109:

http://luthier.stormloader.com/SFTacticsI.htm


"Cockpit visibility is one of the Me-109's main weaknesses. It is not without reason that this plane is considered one of the "blindest" fighters. Cockpit is very cramped, canopy cannot be opened in flight and the armored headrest takes a lot of space. It is incredibly difficult for the pilot to see directly behind and below him. Me-109 pilots cannot see an attacker coming in from 6 o'clock low."

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 01:43 AM
the rearview is a big problem in IL-2/FB - your "eyes" rotating only around one vertical axis.

therefore:
late 109s have better rearview than every 190.

the Bubblecanopy of the P-47 is useless(in the point of rearview)

wait till the P-51 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

but thats in the programm, we can only cross fingers for olegs next flight sim.

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 02:11 AM
Cockpit visibility is one of the Me-109's main weaknesses. It is not without reason that this plane is considered one of the "blindest" fighters. Cockpit is very cramped, canopy cannot be opened in flight and the armored headrest takes a lot of space. It is incredibly difficult for the pilot to see directly behind and below him. Me-109 pilots cannot see an attacker coming in from 6 o'clock low."



What you describe is currently modelled in the 109 back view. To me, the back six view limitations on a per aircraft basis is dependent on the accuracy of the cockpits themselves - similiar to the arguments I see on, ie on the 190 front view. I'm sure different arguments could be made on the rear view.

Currently though, there isn't because the back view is non- existent and poorly done compared to what you get with that particular trackir version software. Now you just have this hard lock where you can't see any further - and this is applied to all aircraft, whether or not that aircraft had this possibility or not.

Again - I'd say add this view for all rather than attempt to just have a subset of pilots have it. The alternative of the current view we have now is a less favorable argument in my opinion.






S!
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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 02:18 AM
Give this back six view only to the a/c's that had the cockpit space for the pilot to turn himself backwards
that's MO

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 02:22 AM
It is now.

The cockpits are FULLY moddelled - not just forward views but also back views.


this is evident in the i16 vs yak, etc...


=====

I posted this quote in the other link, since these seem so similiar:

=========


Currently with that software you do see and are limited by the seat, etc...


This is not a open cockpit back six view we are discussing now - it's a fully modelled cockpit with a view to the back of the cockpit.

So - to go along with your statement, you are limited, ie. i16 vs p47 bubble - the p47 is a much nicer back six view.

Therefore I don't see the problem - as to clarify, Robert Shaw is not theorizing in his statements - these are facts.

These are facts, not Shaw attempting to say 'it should be this way'

Listen to this, as further proof. p375:

"The pilots flight equipment and the aircraft design and maintenance are also important factors. A pilots' clothing should be as lightweight and nonrestricting as possible so that movement in the cockpit is not hindered. It is often necessary to turn almost completely around in the seat in either direction to look directly behind, no easy task in a full pressure suit. Restraining straps must also be designed and adjusted to allow this freedom of movement.

The Japanese early in World War II considered this cockpit freedom so important that their fighter pilots generally did not even wear parachutes."

This addresses issues posted here in and of itself.

S!
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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 02:30 AM
this proves mainly to me that japs were completely nuts /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
But you have to understand that there are planes(FW190 mainly) that have a very small pit, and i dunno if the pilot could move in there

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 02:36 AM
109:
http://fogwar.luftwaffe.net/ftp/109BackSix.gif


p47:
http://fogwar.luftwaffe.net/ftp/p47bubbletop.gif


i16:
http://fogwar.luftwaffe.net/ftp/i16.gif

FW190A5
http://fogwar.luftwaffe.net/ftp/FW190A5.gif



I think this shows the different cockpits and the views allowed are currently modelled correctly.

If Oleg wanted to modified this viewable distance on a aircraft by aircraft basis is completely up to him, but I do find the current modelled cockpits represent at least the correct back six view.

S!
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Message Edited on 06/23/0301:41AM by Recon_609IAP

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 03:11 AM
In the FA18 it is possible to look over your right Shoulder and see the Left fin. It requires a little careful head positioning (preferably before G onset) but perfectly dooable. So perhaps Linda had it right http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 03:26 AM
there seems to be some misinformation here

or i am misunderstanding things completely

the trackir people talk about 180 degree movement -- which is pretty close to what you get with the mouse view

yet people talk about getting 360 degree movement and not seeing the cockpit ...

can you REALLY rotate your head continously in a complete circle and see through the seat back with trackir?

... that seems far stretched to me.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 03:58 AM
No 360 view. You get just what's in these screenshots. Just a little more than mouse view.

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 04:39 AM
so all these threads are just about an extra 10 degrees movement more than mouse view ???

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 04:52 AM
yep

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 05:05 AM
"can you REALLY rotate your head continously in a complete circle and see through the seat back with trackir?
"

As mentioned - you don't 'see through' anything.


S!
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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 05:22 AM
Just to keep supporting this cause, how about a configurable option in conf.ini? Wider (~350?) view in horizontal and -90? to 115? in the vertical (i.e. semi Linda Blair) available as an alternative to the currently coded limits. Both would apply 100% equally to both trackies and non-trackies.

Sound good? Something for the possible minipatch to follow the long-awaited one?


PS: the precise numbers are open to debate but those sound right to me based on the range of movement I personally am capable of.

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 05:50 AM
fyi: I found more screenshots in this post:

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zdzav




S!
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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 06:28 AM
Linda's head turns completely around. Yes, this IS 360 degree movement!

What does that mean?

One player can look over his left shoulder as far as FB allows him and if the plane he is looking at slides to his right, he has to turn his head all the way around to the right and look over his right shoulder.

A TrackIR user need only continue his head movement Linda Blair style a few more degrees to be looking to his right.

That may turn out to be minor, but in the right circumstances, it may make a huge difference.

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 07:50 AM
Pentallion wrote:
- Linda's head turns completely around. Yes, this IS
- 360 degree movement!
-
- What does that mean?
-
- One player can look over his left shoulder as far as
- FB allows him and if the plane he is looking at
- slides to his right, he has to turn his head all the
- way around to the right and look over his right
- shoulder.
-
- A TrackIR user need only continue his head movement
- Linda Blair style a few more degrees to be looking
- to his right.
-
- That may turn out to be minor, but in the right
- circumstances, it may make a huge difference.
-


Yes this is true, but with a little inginuety you could rig up a track ball on your stick or near it, or a cordless mouse and crank the sensitivety up to get the full range in the slightest of movement.


Yes please give all the same view as Track IR Please go to this thread for more info and pics.

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zdzav

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 07:56 AM
"fyi: I found more screenshots in this post:"


These screenshots are perfectly clear, this request is a joke, especially when coming from pilots having asked for more realism "I use track IR because it's more realistic blah, blah, blah" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 11:17 AM
What about the fact that ypu lose padlock when a e/a/c is in your 50 clock possition still visible!

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 12:13 PM
CHDT - you still continue to provide no substance for this argument.

"This is a joke" is your only rebuttal?

You are not to be taken seriously, obviously.

This 'Linda Blair' comment is a cute comment, although it's intent is just to belittle a well documented fact that pilot had the ability to turn and look behind them.

S!
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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 12:41 PM
"CHDT - you still continue to provide no substance for this argument. "


Not from me, but from Butch2K


"" I was talking to Mr. Parker about the American type of shoulder straps. They are not so comfortable and not so good as far as flying with them on because althrough the bubble canopy insures you great visibility to the rear, you cannot comffortably look to the rear, with the shoulder harness on, because you can't twist your body sideways it doesn't give you the freedom of movement to look sideways to see what is behind you. Usualy most pilots slip their harness off after taking off and it is quite a bother to slip it off especially while flying in close formation. There should be some other method where it gives you more movement and also gives you safety because many times you forget to slip back into it."

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And I've experienced it on some aircrafts like PC-7, PC-9, F-5F or Mirage IIIDS, it's simply not possible to have a direct "six" view behind. Yes, it's possible to see the tail of the aircraft on bubble-canopy aircrafts (not on the Mirage and the Tiger if I remember well) but it's absolutely impossible to see for instance in the left side behind in the six, when you're looking to the right side!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 12:47 PM
Have a look here...

http://forumsfr.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=_il2&id=zysib&tpage=7

...in Straffo's last post.

First view is totally unrealistic, unless you're a tail gunner /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The two last views are really correct and would be really cool in FB!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 01:31 PM
CHDT wrote:
- Have a look here...
-
- <a
- href="http://forumsfr.ubi.com/messages/message_vie
- w-topic.asp?name=_il2&id=zysib&tpage=7"
- target=_blank>http://forumsfr.ubi.com/messages/mes
- sage_view-topic.asp?name=_il2&id=zysib&tpage=7</a>
-
-
- ...in Straffo's last post.
-
- First view is totally unrealistic, unless you're a
- tail gunner /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- The two last views are really correct and would be
- really cool in FB!
-
- Cheers,

No argument there on the pics i was going to doctor some of mine I made to show the exact thing this morning. Sure glad I read this and didn't waist my time. If you want realizm I'm sure this is more to the truth. Although they could just let loose of the view they already have available for all, but that wouldn't stop all the whinning I'm sure.

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 01:42 PM
Now, I know this is not the same - and want to state this up front, however, as I was driving to work, with my seatbelt on tightly: I am able to twist my torso and see behind me.

Try it (do it while parked - I don't want to be blamed for some accident! LOL).

Granted, I can't 'twist just my head around' - which is how people are treating this - it does take some turning the shoulders.

Again - it's a car, not an airplane - but on some aircraft, ie. p47, this would be a legit view.

I did find a quote where Robert Johnson says he turns around and looks (in his p47) - but to be fair, it wasn't precise enough to know if this was his back 7 or 5 oc, or directly behind.





S!
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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 02:10 PM
http://www.cebudanderson.com/ch1.htm

"So I'm looking back, almost straight down now, and I can see this 20-millimeter cannon sticking through the middle of the fighter's propeller hub. In the theater of my memory, it is enormous. An elephant gun. And that isn't far wrong. It is a gun designed to bring down a bomber, one that fires shells as long as your hand, shells that explode and tear big holes in metal. It is the single most frightening thing I have seen in my life, then and now"

Granted, he could be at an angle - but i would doubt he would sacrifice that just to see behind knowing the bandit is dead on his six in a straight up climb.

S!
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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 02:11 PM
Those pict are not mine they were made by Kweassa.

CHDT I didn't know there was a discution about the same subject in the ORR /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

pour une fois que je me balade ici /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif



Message Edited on 06/23/0303:27PM by straffo

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 05:16 PM
Pentallion wrote:
- Linda's head turns completely around. Yes, this IS
- 360 degree movement!
-
- What does that mean?
-
- One player can look over his left shoulder as far as
- FB allows him and if the plane he is looking at
- slides to his right, he has to turn his head all the
- way around to the right and look over his right
- shoulder.
-
- A TrackIR user need only continue his head movement
- Linda Blair style a few more degrees to be looking
- to his right.
-
- That may turn out to be minor, but in the right
- circumstances, it may make a huge difference.
-


There's a misunderstanding here I believe. In my 2.0 software I do have to stop at 360?, you can't go back over to the other side. Is this a 2.01 peculiearity? It doesn't even sound feasible using the hardware - it can barely track 180? of motion properly.

<hr width="400">Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and have their
shoes!
http://members.rogers.com/teemaz/sig.jpg (http://www.jagdgeschwader1.com)

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 05:20 PM
CHDT, if only... if only...

I'd love to see that view implemented in FB. It would be grand!

<hr width="400">Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and have their
shoes!
http://members.rogers.com/teemaz/sig.jpg (http://www.jagdgeschwader1.com)

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 05:37 PM
I can't seem to view those picts - but would like to.

Just FYI - the first version of trackir allowed that view - it was later removed from the website with a new version that did not allow that view.

Some problems that have surfaced is that not everyone has updated from that version.

However, once people have see what it is possible of, the debate has been whether or not that view should be accessable by everyone or not.

You might want to work on your setup if you have problems checking back 6 - it should be an easy slight glance left or right.

S!
609IAP_Recon

Forgotten Wars Virtual War
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Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 05:42 PM
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84784&


" flew at Air Combat USA and pulled 4+G's sustained with my head bent straight back trying to track a bogie through several loops. It never physically hurt except my eyes and my brain. My brain fell out of my head when I landed but my neck felt fine.

Also it should be noted that while I was fighting for my life making all kinds of funny sounds the pilot next to me who had flown a million dogfights was pratically napping. He felt nothing at all and he was tracking the same target I was.

I honestly think when the Cheif test pilot of a WW2 aircraft says that you can see the virtical fin from the cockpit you can pretty much believe it. It was not in his best interest to lie while standing in a room full of combat pilots that fly his airplane.

BTW in the same meeting where Mr. Guyton makes his statement about the F4U 6 view a Mustang pilot mentions he can see his right horizontal stab over his left shoulder.
"


Also this one:


"I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not but I don't think shoulder straps ever prevented a pilot in WW2 from checking his 6 view more than once.

I would highly reccomend that people order a copy of the 1944 Report on Joint Fighter Conferance. It is not a book written by an author. It is the minutes of a meeting held in 1944 to discuss fighter desgn with Combat Pilots, Contractors both British and American. They discuss at length the ability of a pilot to check his 6 view. Based on this I think it is very clear that you could see at least as much over your left and right shoulder as you do in AH. The view straight back over you head may be out of wack but that is due to the lack of rear view mirrors."


S!
609IAP_Recon

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Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem



Message Edited on 06/23/0304:44PM by Recon_609IAP

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 07:06 PM
If we allow everyone to have the 180 view, then we better make padlock track to 180 as well.

<img src=http://www.simops.com/graphics/wildcard.gif>

IRON SKIES
As real as you want it to be.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 08:39 PM
Well of course they would be same. That is the point here.

S!
609IAP_Recon

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 10:56 PM
I agree Wildcard - as long as the bandit is in view it should remain padlocked.

I posted same in other thread - I am not sure how it would work - it could work already that way.

S!
609IAP_Recon

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Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem