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View Full Version : planes online compare fairly well with pilots accounts. IMO



F19_Ob
09-01-2005, 05:55 AM
I post some of my own insights, just expressing what I think, and how our simplanes compare with pilotaccounts I've read.
Likely others have compared the planes in the sim with pilots accounts aswell and therefore may be interested in a fellowsimmers thoughts on this subject. (immersion thing) (not detailed)(for fun) (not scientiffic facts) (just a fellow simmers comparisons of some aspects ) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

NOTE that I dont say anything about correct or not correct FM or such.

I haven't found any other ww2 sim than this one where planes compare so well with pilots acounts and against eachother.
ofcourse I agree with those who think small tweakings and fixes could be done but overall I'm very happy with it.


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A few examples of comparisons from online and pilots accounts:

Lately I have been interested to compare the p51's, p47's and p38's with eachother and against their most common opponents online, and I think oleg and team has done a fantastic job here.
As many of u may know some German aces also flew these American planes (captured) to get a feeling how they worked. Ofcourse I dont belive they could fly them to their absolute limits and they didn't fly all variants, but one have to give them some credit for their observations since they also fought these planes in the air.

G√ľnther Rall was one of the german pilots who
flew the american planes, and found the p-51 to be the most dangerous. He didn't worry asmuch about the p38 or p47 since he could more easily overtake them.(he felt)
In the accounts (so far) the p51 seems to be the one of these three that caused most concern for the majority of german pilots (with a few exeptions) Not because it did everything better than the other two, but had good balanced controlls for fighting (again compared to p38 and p47) and its long range.
P51 could turn, roll, climb, and accellerate fairly well although not better than the 109, but well enough to be a serious threat.
P-38 was more difficult and uncomfortable to fly and although it could turn well in certain speeds it's rollrate was one of the things that hampered it although the L variant was a bit better at higher speeds. Both Fw190 and 109 could reverse a turn with a p38 behind and the p38 couldn't follow because of the slower roll (can be done in the sim aswell).
Fw190 ofcourse had a harder time against the p38 than the 109 but its rollrate and armament made up for some of it's shortcommings.

The difference in turn between the p38J and L variants in the sim is quite big because of the airbrake in the L wich makes it turn momentarily better than a 109 and wich allows it to declerate fast wich can be very important sometimes and this also what decreases the turnradious momentarily. In the sim the L may evade attacking 109's several times, with the aid of the brakes, although it cant get the upper hand in a slow dogfight at the same rate as the 109 (note this last bit "not at same rate").
This ofcourse doesn't mean that the p38 cant achieve 109 kills in the sim, wich it can, but again, not at the same rate as the 109 can kill the p38.


To me anyway it's clear; If I could meet myself in a 109 with any of these 3 american planes I would have to pick the p51 to have the best opportunity to win because it's a bit harder to do that in a p38 or p47.
It's however fun to fly p38 against 109's since it can atleast do the airbrake turn, wich is the only thing a p38 can do better than a 109 and its fun the times it works to ones favor. It wont fool an experienced 109 repetedly but sometimes once can be enough.

One strong point with P38, p47 and p51 is that they all can hold the distance against a chasing 109 for a while,wich may make the 109 vulnerable for attack from others.
It doesn't seem as such great advantage to be able to hold the distance a while, but actually earlier slower planes couldn't escape at all and had fewer opportunities to catch a 109 or 190.

All 3 american planes have their goodies.
P38 has 20mm cannon and the L variant the airbrake aswell. P47 has Eight mg's and high break up speed.
P51 has the balanced controlls wich makes it better allround.

For me the ultimate german fighter is the 109.
best accelleration and climb aswell as good turn and lowspeedhandling makes it a hard opponent wich can overtake many allied planes and/ or choose to disengage more often (especially early war), wich is hard or not possible to do in some allied planes.

Fw190 is a very good fighter, but really in highspeed only and have serious disadvantages in low speeds where american fighters more often have the upper hand. So in that respect the 109 is the easier plane to fly in allround combat of the two.

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So in my book when comparing these 3 allied planes with their most common opponents online the 109 and fw190 I list them for lethality like this.

1. Bf 109 with 30mm cannon, clear winner as top fighter.

2. Fw190 fightervariants including Dora and Ta152. and P-51D is about equal to the better Fw190's.

3. P-47 and P-38 shared

One plane that also often is included in latewar settings online with these above is the spit mk9 wich I think would come second place (if i had to include it) after the 109 and slightly before the better 190's and p51.

This lethality-list is how I think the planes match online and, it also corresponds fairly well with the majority of pilots accounts I've read so far (the overall picture).

I know some will put up figures and stats, and fancy stuff now, but yet some of u may recognize similarities from your own reading and online experiences.

This was only a few planes but I think several others compares well with pilotsaccounts too.


Feel free to add...... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

BSS_Goat
09-01-2005, 06:02 AM
Goat <-----sits back to watch the cork bob

georgeo76
09-01-2005, 06:04 AM
I agree. From a strictly layman POV, I'm completely satisfied with the overall performance of the sim. In fact, I'd never know anything was 'uber' or 'porked' if I didn't read these forums. Guess I'm just ignorant.

But I did manage to shoot down two Ki-84s the other night in greatergreen using a P-47, so I guess ignorance is bliss.

F19_Ob
09-01-2005, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by georgeo76:
I agree. From a strictly layman POV, I'm completely satisfied with the overall performance of the sim. In fact, I'd never know anything was 'uber' or 'porked' if I didn't read these forums. Guess I'm just ignorant.

But I did manage to shoot down two Ki-84s the other night in greatergreen using a P-47, so I guess ignorance is bliss.

Yeah. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif It's fun when that happens. It's inspiring to know then that the victory didn't depend on superior capabilities of your fighter versus the enemy rides, and that other factors like chance and/or skill likely were at play there.

Recently I shot down three bf109's in a p38 in a sortie on GG so ofcourse it's possible to end up in favorable situations and with Fortuna patting on ones head. I even count on them to happen http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Another sortie I shot down two late bf109's and a Ta and reversed an attack and damaged another in a crappy doubleseater il2 although I got scratched myself. Amusing to watch such tracks.

I guess if one count in every possible variable in aircombat it's possible to pull off seemingly impossible fighting in craprides against top fighters but it wont be the norm.

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I'm not much for online statistics but I wonder if they would support my findings?
Atleast an average should be possible to produce with longtime stats on a server.
For example how often p38's shoot down 109's and vice versa.
Have anyone checked something like that?

F19_Ob
09-01-2005, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by BSS_Goat:
Goat <-----sits back to watch the cork bob

Ah... bobbing corks are relaxing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I've heard that u are a hotshot in the p38 Mr.Goat, but I assure U that U differ from the majority of p38 pilots I've tracked through GG and other servers.
Some have been good but usually a p38 still need a few hits unless hitting a vital spot and preferably with hispano cannon, while the 109 usually only needs one 30mm hit and it doesn't have to be a vital spot.

As I see it the 109 overall performance is better including armament. With the one exeption of the speedbrake turn with the p38L.
I often fly the J though so no speedbrake there.

Bearcat99
09-01-2005, 08:56 AM
I think the planes in the sim are modelled well for the most part.. I just think that the acceleration on the 51s is off and the wings shouldnt fall off as easily as they do.... I also think that overall some of the American planes should be a tad faster.... not much but a bit.... but I still enjoy the h@ll out of them all and if there awere no more upgrades or tweaks coming I would still be a happy camper...

F19_Ob
09-01-2005, 09:21 AM
Yes , small fixes here and there.
This last patch made me recognize the p51 dogfightingcapabilities from pilotaccounts.
Not only a BnZ'er but a plane with ok turn.
Same goes for p38, p47 and the fw190 too.
They flipped easier in turns in 3.04
The gentler entering into stalls allows the pilot to continue a tight turn just a bit longer.
The fw190 even turns that "third of a turn" with a spitfire without flipping out of it.

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I also find the hurricanes relation to the 109's belivable after reading many frustrated accounts with hurricane pilots flying mk1, mk2b against 109's, and later the change, increase in kill possibility with the 2c cannon variant.

Hurricane mk1 pilots who chased a single 109 but never caught it, or emptied their ammo and got strikes but the 109 still pulled away by bunting.
Most the tricks (the ones I've read about) the 109's did in RL against hurricanes works online
aswell.

Thats pretty amazing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

LStarosta
09-01-2005, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I think the planes in the sim are modelled well for the most part.. I just think that the acceleration on the 51s is off and the wings shouldnt fall off as easily as they do.... I also think that overall some of the American planes should be a tad faster.... not much but a bit.... but I still enjoy the h@ll out of them all and if there awere no more upgrades or tweaks coming I would still be a happy camper...

That is your pilot error, not the fault of the airplane. If you are not gentle with the airplane, it will fall apart.

It takes a gentle hand and I've flown P51's in excess of 900kmh without damage.

geetarman
09-01-2005, 09:49 AM
I would agree for the most part with your list. Two points though:

1. The Mk III Mustang, performancewise, is probably better than the bulk of the 109's (with the exception of the K4). It's lethality is much lower however. The only advantage a typical 109 has over a Mk. III is slightly better low speed handling and maybe sustained turn. The Mk III is faster, dives better, can climb almost as well, rolls better at higher speeds, handles much better at higher speeds.
It's four .50's does mean it has a reduced punch, but they do the job.

2. In your typical late-war match-up between say a G10 or K4 and a P-51D from the 8th AF, the 51 was most probably operating at a higher boost level than you can pull on the D in the game. We are talking 67" vs. 71-72". Doesn't sound like much, but it makes a difference in the Mustang. In game, the later 109's are superior to the P-51D, overall, I find. If we were ever to get a boosted D model Mustang, the gap would narrow between the late 109's and the D, although I still think the K4 would have the edge by a decent margin.

JZG-Pedro
09-01-2005, 09:51 AM
Yea, as u have said, in general this game is quite good on FMs if we analyze RL material. Some things could be changed though... since the release, G6s have always climbed slowly (not the 4,500 ft/min we see in RL data), the hurri is flying quite fast right now, among a few other things... but still, nothing even close to hamper playability.

Bearcat99
09-01-2005, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I think the planes in the sim are modelled well for the most part.. I just think that the acceleration on the 51s is off and the wings shouldnt fall off as easily as they do.... I also think that overall some of the American planes should be a tad faster.... not much but a bit.... but I still enjoy the h@ll out of them all and if there awere no more upgrades or tweaks coming I would still be a happy camper...

That is your pilot error, not the fault of the airplane. If you are not gentle with the airplane, it will fall apart.

It takes a gentle hand and I've flown P51's in excess of 900kmh without damage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a gentle hand......I have lost wings in a dive... with no pressure on the stick.... I have also gotten up to high speeds without wings falling off but I have also lost them in level flight..... and they do accelerate too slowly...... sure I can get pretty cloe to my cruising speed after a while but the plane should accelerate faster.... but as I said..... I still enjoy the sim... and the p-51 is still my mount of choice.... but that is what I see....