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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 05:47 AM
Recently I read the historical account of the 94 P-38Js from the 82nd FG based in Foggia, eastern central Italy. Their mission was to fly 600 miles across the Adriatic sea in the mountains of Yugoslavia and bomb the Romano-Americano oil refinery in Ploesti, the primary producer of high-grade aviation gasoline for the Luftwaffe.

All previous B-24 and B-17 bombing runs suffered heavy casualties because of the smoke generators based around the oil fields and the tenacity and effectiveness of the defense. The refinery escaped serious damage.

As the Russians closed in from the NE, the Romanians and Germans sent some of their most experienced pilots and aces to desperately defend Ploesti but they were only equipped with 40 BF109Gs and 70 IAR80/81s.

Forty-six P-38s were equipped with 1,000 pound bombs, 48 were escorts and all had 310-gallon drop tanks. When they passed over the mountains into the refinery valley they kept altitude 50-100 feet. They didn't realize German radar spotted them well over Yugoslavia. They completely lost the element of surprise. To cap things off both groups had been separated because of prohibited radio contact.

The Romanian and German fighters had climbed to altitude and were ready to make the pounce. Of the 23 Romanian fighters who made the interception of the P-38 escorts, in 4 minutes they claimed 23 Lightnings and a loss of 2 IARs. All 40 109Gs pounced on the 48 bomb carrying Lightnings, 9 were claimed lost to flak and fighters and another 10 badly damaged. Only 24 could drop their bombs. The refinery was not seriously damaged.

The number of planes downed is inflated by the pilots due to the battle's intensity. A total of 23 P-38s failed to return to base. Many that did were badly damaged. "We pretty much felt like we'd gotten kicked pretty hard that day. It took a lot of hard work by the ground crews for us to be ready for the mission we flew on the next day," said Richard "****" Willsie, Operations Officer.

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 05:47 AM
Recently I read the historical account of the 94 P-38Js from the 82nd FG based in Foggia, eastern central Italy. Their mission was to fly 600 miles across the Adriatic sea in the mountains of Yugoslavia and bomb the Romano-Americano oil refinery in Ploesti, the primary producer of high-grade aviation gasoline for the Luftwaffe.

All previous B-24 and B-17 bombing runs suffered heavy casualties because of the smoke generators based around the oil fields and the tenacity and effectiveness of the defense. The refinery escaped serious damage.

As the Russians closed in from the NE, the Romanians and Germans sent some of their most experienced pilots and aces to desperately defend Ploesti but they were only equipped with 40 BF109Gs and 70 IAR80/81s.

Forty-six P-38s were equipped with 1,000 pound bombs, 48 were escorts and all had 310-gallon drop tanks. When they passed over the mountains into the refinery valley they kept altitude 50-100 feet. They didn't realize German radar spotted them well over Yugoslavia. They completely lost the element of surprise. To cap things off both groups had been separated because of prohibited radio contact.

The Romanian and German fighters had climbed to altitude and were ready to make the pounce. Of the 23 Romanian fighters who made the interception of the P-38 escorts, in 4 minutes they claimed 23 Lightnings and a loss of 2 IARs. All 40 109Gs pounced on the 48 bomb carrying Lightnings, 9 were claimed lost to flak and fighters and another 10 badly damaged. Only 24 could drop their bombs. The refinery was not seriously damaged.

The number of planes downed is inflated by the pilots due to the battle's intensity. A total of 23 P-38s failed to return to base. Many that did were badly damaged. "We pretty much felt like we'd gotten kicked pretty hard that day. It took a lot of hard work by the ground crews for us to be ready for the mission we flew on the next day," said Richard "****" Willsie, Operations Officer.

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 06:27 AM
Interesting read, and sad/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif thanks for the info.

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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 06:47 AM
Sounds very much like what happened to the B-24's that flew from Tunisia.

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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 08:11 AM
But look at the guts of these men, they flew a mission the next day! My wish is that if I am ever faced with this kind of situation, I'd have a tenth of the intestinal fortitude of these guys.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 08:46 AM
Those "guts" are what I admire so much from all the pilots of all the nations involved, my own and those my countrymen flew against.

To go up, experiance that kind of brutal terror, then be asked to go do it all over again.

Not a sim for those brave men & women. No reset buttons.

I salute them all.

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 09:55 AM
J.D.Carter wrote:
-
-
-
- Those "guts" are what I admire so much from all
- the pilots of all the nations involved, my own and
- those my countrymen flew against.
-
-
- To go up, experiance that kind of brutal terror,
- then be asked to go do it all over again.
-
-
- Not a sim for those brave men & women. No reset
- buttons.
-
-
- I salute them all.

I'd rather sit in a figther than anywhere else on the battlefield.....

rgds

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 10:11 AM
those p38s were not ready to dogfight. i think the sequence for fire control etc is a couple minutes or something of the sort. if the were expecting fire and had guns etc ready they would have toasted the bogeys...anyone have info on this ? skychimp? somebody? there are other issues at play as to why this happened. not just getting bounced

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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 10:24 AM
RedDeth wrote:
- those p38s were not ready to dogfight. i think the
- sequence for fire control etc is a couple minutes or
- something of the sort. if the were expecting fire
- and had guns etc ready they would have toasted the
- bogeys...anyone have info on this ? skychimp?
- somebody? there are other issues at play as to why
- this happened. not just getting bounced
-
At a rough guess the only factor in this was the p-38 got bounced, in any good intercept when radar is involved the interceptors should be able to get into excellent position given enough time (most of the time during BoB the british didnt have enough time), a large number kills made during WWI and WWII were when the aircraft shot down didnt see the aircraft making the "kill", so please no excusues for these, uberamerican planes thanks, and yes more than PONY was shot down by being bounced as well

Konigwolf



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Pirates of the Carribean:Curse of the Black Pearl

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 10:27 AM
RedDeth wrote:
- those p38s were not ready to dogfight. i think the
- sequence for fire control etc is a couple minutes or
- something of the sort. if the were expecting fire
- and had guns etc ready they would have toasted the
- bogeys...anyone have info on this ? skychimp?
- somebody? there are other issues at play as to why
- this happened. not just getting bounced


you are right, it wasn´t very fair from the axis pilots to attack the P38 formation /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

otherwise its clear like a window, the axis planes would have no chance against the US fighters : /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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Zayets
10-25-2003, 11:12 AM
One thing maybe you don't know is that this operation (Tidal Wave) was assumed from the very beginning as a operation with heavy loses. Americans knew what expected them , yet they fought. Salute to them and all Romanian and German pilots.
Another thing that you didn't kne probably is that for 30 years Americans thought they were slaughtered by Bf's and FW's. 30 years later they've found that was the IAR80 , not the FW.IAR80 was way inferior in '44 but still a highly maneuvrable aircraft. I don't think I have a comparison term. I could not compare them with the La's because their speed(IAR80) was way lower.Turned way better than the FW's and Bf's and lately they've added quite some firepower on them , specially for bombers intercepts. Anyone interested in the Romanian Aviation and WW2 I can kindly reccomend those two links :

http://www.arr.go.ro

http://www.worldwar2.ro

On the last link there's also a forum (no , is not in Romanian , is in English). Lurk around there , you may find things you never knew.

Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 02:53 AM
Intresting reading Zayets, I knew they were darned nimble in FB but it would seem that pilots with a taste for the turn liked them in the real world as well.

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 03:00 AM
J.D.Carter wrote:I knew they were
- darned nimble in FB but it would seem that pilots
- with a taste for the turn liked them in the real
- world as well.


It'll be fun to fly 'em in FB. Same thing for the P-38 for that matter!

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Message Edited on 10/25/0309:01PM by necrobaron

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 07:41 AM
See

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/ ( <A HREF=)tidalwave/tidalwave.htm" target=_blank>http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/tidalwave/tidalwave.htm</a>

for more...

And

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/romania.htm

for more stuff specifically about Romanian stories

and

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/

for everyone else

RIVERWOLF2012
06-27-2012, 03:14 PM
Recently I read the historical account of the 94 P-38Js from the 82nd FG based in Foggia, eastern central Italy. Their mission was to fly 600 miles across the Adriatic sea in the mountains of Yugoslavia and bomb the Romano-Americano oil refinery in Ploesti, the primary producer of high-grade aviation gasoline for the Luftwaffe.

All previous B-24 and B-17 bombing runs suffered heavy casualties because of the smoke generators based around the oil fields and the tenacity and effectiveness of the defense. The refinery escaped serious damage.

As the Russians closed in from the NE, the Romanians and Germans sent some of their most experienced pilots and aces to desperately defend Ploesti but they were only equipped with 40 BF109Gs and 70 IAR80/81s.

Forty-six P-38s were equipped with 1,000 pound bombs, 48 were escorts and all had 310-gallon drop tanks. When they passed over the mountains into the refinery valley they kept altitude 50-100 feet. They didn't realize German radar spotted them well over Yugoslavia. They completely lost the element of surprise. To cap things off both groups had been separated because of prohibited radio contact.

The Romanian and German fighters had climbed to altitude and were ready to make the pounce. Of the 23 Romanian fighters who made the interception of the P-38 escorts, in 4 minutes they claimed 23 Lightnings and a loss of 2 IARs. All 40 109Gs pounced on the 48 bomb carrying Lightnings, 9 were claimed lost to flak and fighters and another 10 badly damaged. Only 24 could drop their bombs. The refinery was not seriously damaged.

The number of planes downed is inflated by the pilots due to the battle's intensity. A total of 23 P-38s failed to return to base. Many that did were badly damaged. "We pretty much felt like we'd gotten kicked pretty hard that day. It took a lot of hard work by the ground crews for us to be ready for the mission we flew on the next day," said Richard "****" Willsie, Operations Officer.

From the combat journals of Romanian air units we know that the two groups of P-38s were not separated because of radio silence. They had different targets. The "bombers" went to the refinery but the escort went to Pipera airfield (base of 6'th Romanian Fighter Group) trying to surprise the Romanian IARs on the ground.
At that moment the 6'th Fighter Group was already at 7000 m altitude and from there they ambushed the unawared P-38s. In 4 minutes they shot down 14 P-38s and damaged many others. The combat was carried between 10 and 100 m altitude. Romanian losses were 3 airplanes, two of them colliding each other. First claims were about 23 P-38s shot down but, later, they found the remains of only 14 P-38s around the airbase.

Sillius_Sodus
06-29-2012, 08:33 PM
In-game, think of the IAR80 as a Zero with poorer acceleration but more ammo.