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View Full Version : Dogfight techniques-How important is rudder?



drose01
11-18-2004, 05:55 AM
As a pretty new player, I am still experimenting with techniques and tactics.

I have noticed that for most maneuvering, I do not use my rudder very often, and seem to do ok.

I definitely use rudder for takeoff/landing, and to help get out of spins. I don't use it much for dogfighting moves otherwise.

The question is, am I neglecting an important tool? I suspect that I might be. Does the rudder help in any specific maneuvers, or in general, and specifically how and when should it be used?

JG53Frankyboy
11-18-2004, 06:03 AM
rolling the Zero without rudder , well , that would take too much time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

i also, soon after start , trimm my rudder - when ruddertrim is availabe (Bf109s, Fw190s, Ki84s for example have no ruddertrimm)

ColoradoBBQ
11-18-2004, 06:10 AM
The rudder is a very important in a dogfight. Some types of manuevers requires the rudder such as the yo-yo or the knife turn which are a few manuever important in a dogfight.

Atomic_Marten
11-18-2004, 06:20 AM
For your question, there are many answers. Depends really what you drive and what you are up to in dogfight. You must know, that without using rudder in many occasions, such as BnZ and escaping/evading bullets, your virtual life is going to be very hard/short.

You will find that on some planes rudder is more important than on others (overall), but lack of rudder usage in dogfight? You won't get such opportunity in serious dogfight I think..

georgeo76
11-18-2004, 06:23 AM
The rudder is essential in BFM. If you haven't mastered it there, you will do poorly in combat.

FatBoyHK
11-18-2004, 09:32 AM
can you guys suggest some good articles that talk about the usage of rudder?

TooCooL34
11-18-2004, 09:36 AM
Can you fly without elevator?
Rudder is another elevator in BFM and CFM. You can't do advanced techniques without it.
Of course I'm saying foot rudder not twist nor rocker.

Atomic_Marten
11-18-2004, 09:52 AM
You can not fly without elevator. That is maybe the only control out of three (rudder, aileron) that you can not fly without. I have landed many times witout elevator control, but it is extremely hard and usually it is crash land.

Any combat without elevator is impossible. Without rudder, it is barely possible, without ailerons it is impossible. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

You may also want to view this:
SimHQ combat tips#1 (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air.html)
SimHQ combat tips#2 (http://www.simhq.com/_air/acc_library.html)

Chuck_Older
11-18-2004, 10:20 AM
Personally, I feel that if you cannot control one of your axes of movement, you cannot fight. You might escape, but any succesful attack you make will be luck

El Turo
11-18-2004, 10:43 AM
I concur. If you lose any one flight control axis, you are more or less out of the fight except for extreme circumstances (and perhaps only with loss of rudder). I've brought my ride home with any one of the three axis blown out and agree that elevator is certainly the most critical. Aileron and Rudder are very interchangable for basic flying purposes in a pinch, but the rudder just doesn't have enough authority to fully compensate for loss of the elevator.

Anyway.. how important is rudder in air combat? You cannot realistically figure to obtain and track gunnery solutions very well without rudder control. That last 2-3 degrees of correction you need at times to score your killing blow just isn't going to happen without a last second touch of rudder most times. Beyond gunnery (which I feel is the single most important skill aside from situational awareness a fighter pilot can have), you will need rudder for most basic and advanced manuevers you are going to attempt.

A pilot without rudder control is maybe 50% combat effective in my opinion. It's that big of a deal, yes.

drose01
11-18-2004, 10:53 AM
Confession- I have no joystick.

That is a big reason that I am not using the rudder much- one hand is moving ailerons/elevators, the other is on the guns.

I guess a joystick would be necessary to get to "the next level."

Even better would be a set of foot pedals, probably. Do many of you Aces out there have foot pedals?

HART_dreyer
11-18-2004, 10:54 AM
I shot someone down once without aileron controls in a 109.

Get a joystick.

I don't have foot pedals.

Rudders may be essential to dog fighting, but if you're dog fighting you've already done something wrong.

TgD Thunderbolt56
11-18-2004, 11:06 AM
I know more than one good pilot who used (now uses CH) the X45 and only used the rudder rocker for ground steering as he said it was not accurate enough and a pain in the a$$ to reach it...so he never used it.

Now He is definitely the exception to the rule and I would venture to say that the majority of the truly good pilots use pedals. Not that a twisty stick doesn't allow for success, but if anyone has ever flown a real airplane (with the exception of an Aerocoupe) then they wouldn't thinkof flying without pedals.

TB

El Turo
11-18-2004, 11:20 AM
Flying without a joystick in simulated air combat is like getting into a fist fight with your shoe laces tied together. Are you going to be able to hold your own? Maybe, probably not.. but just think how much better you'd be doing if you had full control over your actions.


At a minimum, buy an inexpensive stick like the Saitek Cyborg or Evo (appx $40 or so) that has twist rudder control, a throttle control and several buttons to program for your various weapons, systems and even a hat for view-controlling.

If you've got the money and inclination, and are serious about getting into simming, a HOTAS (hands on throttle and stick) is a must in my opinion, as is a good set of rudder pedals.

The X52 is a great mid-point solution at appx $130 or so. It gives you a lot of programability options, a throttle and a stick with a twist feature for rudder control. Eventually, you will want to buy rudder pedals at appx $100 or so (CH Pro Pedals are great).

If you want to go totally nuts and get the best setup on the planet, buy the Cougar HOTAS and get the aftermarket "fixes" done to it and buy a set of Simped rudder pedals. This entire setup will probably run you right around $1,000 or so.

Me, I bought a new gaming rig and a Saitek Cyborg Gold at $30 about four and a half years ago and then bought an X45 ($70) and CH Pro Pedals ($110) when that wore out about 18 months later. When the X45 stick wore out on me another 18 months later, I bought a CH Fighterstick ($120-ish) to replace it.

If/when my X45 throttle ever dies on me, I'll likely buy an X52 to replace it and I'll shelve the CH Fighterstick for a while. I greatly preferred the heavier springs in the X45 and the button/hat placement.. although the CH products seem to be of better overall quality.

LStarosta
11-18-2004, 02:26 PM
Unless you like to use your whole fuselage as one big air brake, you will use the rudder to perform coordinated turns.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You can not fly without elevator. That is maybe the only control out of three (rudder, aileron) that you can not fly without. I have landed many times witout elevator control, but it is extremely hard and usually it is crash land. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Untrue, I brought myself and my bird back into friendly territory and near an airfield by using flaps to control my altitude. I don't recommend trying to land a plane without an Elevator, however. I have done it before but it was a VERY smooth glideslope that extended to perhaps 6-7 kilometers from the runway.

J_Weaver
11-18-2004, 03:03 PM
I couldn't hit anything if I didn't have rudder. I don't see how I ever played without it.

El Turo
11-18-2004, 03:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Unless you like to use your whole fuselage as one big air brake, you will use the rudder to perform coordinated turns. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only, that in IL2FB.x the lateral/yaw stability is really a bit too stable and very, very little rudder is needed (if any in most circumstances) to coordinate turns. Granted, I'll take a little bit too much stability in the lateral and yaw axis instead of the opposite (WWIIOL) every day of the week and twice on squad night.

!S

WTE_Galway
11-18-2004, 03:11 PM
you can fly without elevator by banking and using rudder to climb or descend in the bank and then level out

landing with no elevator is trickier but possible with good flap/throttle control


as for rudder .. many planes yaw when S&L which means you need rudder to shoot .. the 109 does not shoot straight without right rudder for example

mortoma
11-18-2004, 03:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
Unless you like to use your whole fuselage as one big air brake, you will use the rudder to perform coordinated turns.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You can not fly without elevator. That is maybe the only control out of three (rudder, aileron) that you can not fly without. I have landed many times witout elevator control, but it is extremely hard and usually it is crash land. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Untrue, I brought myself and my bird back into friendly territory and near an airfield by using flaps to control my altitude. I don't recommend trying to land a plane without an Elevator, however. I have done it before but it was a VERY smooth glideslope that extended to perhaps 6-7 kilometers from the runway. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>One of the most excellent landings ( greaser ) I've ever made was in the ME-110G2 without elevator control. Instead I used a lot of flap cycling and throttle cycling. It was truly a beautiful landing for anyone to make, even if they had elevator control.

F19_Orheim
11-19-2004, 02:14 AM
For me rudder is essential, you can't really be very accurate when it comes to shooting without beeing able to adjust ALL vectors.

Now, I have tried ALL the rudder options for flightsims, in the following chronological order:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI><span class="ev_code_RED">Keyboard:</span> Forgettaboutit!
<LI><span class="ev_code_RED">Twist:</span> It's really good once you get used to it, easy to make small rudder adjusment, but it is also very easy to unknowingly apply rudder when you don't need it, thus cause drag and loose speed.
<LI><span class="ev_code_RED">Rudder Rocker (X-45):</span> Better than keyboard of course, but controlwise worse than twist. For me anyway the rocker was really hard to get used to, never got the "feel" for it even though the time after I got the Saitek X-45, I played A LOT.
<LI><span class="ev_code_RED">Footrudder (CH):</span>No Contest whatsoever. After just using it for a couple of days, I loved them. Immersionwise they are unbeatable, and they are so robust these babies will outlive a NUMBER of joystick. Good investment.[/list]

RocketRobin__
11-23-2004, 12:04 AM
No rudder, no problem.
Just fly a Ki84, LA or Yak.
Anything else and it could be trouble.