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Dark-Whisperer
01-10-2011, 07:28 AM
I know that it is announced that in Heroes VI there will be 2D town screens and thats set in stone, but I just want to know does majority of people think thats the best way to go.

kodial79
01-10-2011, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by Dark-Whisperer:
I know that it is announced that in Heroes VI there will be 2D town screens and thats set in stone, but I just want to know does majority of people think thats the best way to go.

Probably the majority of people want 2D Towns only because they remind them of H3 more. :P

I voted for 3D though. H5's town screens were visually stunning. I doubt any 2D town screen could ever be so awesome.

Jester64
01-10-2011, 06:29 PM
I did like the 2D towns but going from 3D to 2D seems like a step backwards just to please the fans that can't get out of the past.

BeriadanL
01-10-2011, 07:04 PM
Deffenetly 3d town screens. As jester said,the 2d towns screens is a step backward after 3d. And also I agree with kodial

GoranXII
01-10-2011, 07:30 PM
Voted 3D. 2D was good enough in its day, but it meant you had to squash everything into one single screen whereas with 3D you can space them out a bit.

Nightmus
01-10-2011, 10:23 PM
Voted for 3D. While 2D town screens can be made visually appealing and are in fact more comfortable at times, I just can't forget the marvellous H5 3D town screens. They are awesome! Preserve is especially stunning with it's beautiful patches of sunlight and water reflections.

OmegaZoa
01-10-2011, 11:18 PM
agreed with jester.

Xenofex_086
01-11-2011, 01:16 AM
I didn't find find the Heroes V 3D screens to be that "stunning" and particularly with Fortress and Stronghold their effect was lost completely. Nothing nice to look at, just pits and tents. I'm not against the 3D towns, but it seems unnecessary to me - takes more time to be developed, serves no practical purpose and in the end does not always look better than the 2D counterpart.

Oakwarrior
01-11-2011, 03:17 AM
Anyone remember the H2 town screens? Bloody awesome.
2D all the way. It has way more artistic and eye-candy potential, plus it'll be pressuring your PC less performance-wise, so it's a win-win situation over 3D I'd say http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Or maybe I'm just nostalgic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/17166/1283883-wizard_super.gif
If that's not completely awesome, then I don't know what is (well at least it was for its time).
Image courtesy of Google >_>

The H3 town screens sort of felt... hmm, worse. It blended in with itself too much, making them seem bland ('cept for Inferno and Necro those were good).

dc84
01-11-2011, 04:41 AM
I need to see how they draw the town in 2D.

Because I think 3d is the better. In Heroes V I can watch elves town by 15 minutes. It help me to turn off from reality and gives game atmosphere.

We have arts of units. And arts of units we have in
- 2D
- 3D

And for me unit arts in 2D is looks better.

So it depends of result.
May be town in 2D will be better then 3d, becuase they give as atmosphere, and usability.

Many fighting games such as streegifghter and mortal combat became more 2d after it was in 3d, because it more easy to play I think.

I think we need to see result. And result in 2D help us to choose. We can compare it with Heroes 3d towns

Alderbranchh
01-11-2011, 06:17 AM
2D - isometric views can be used for ppl that like 3dish effects. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I dont play heroes for 3D-effects... never have and never will.

wdcryer
01-11-2011, 07:39 AM
I voted for 2D for two reasons. One, it's more useful. With 3D towns you have to rotate around to select certain things. With 2D you can select anything. While 3D is pretty, when I'm accessing town screens hundreds of times in a game I start ignoring the town graphics entirely and just using the UI. At least with 2D there is a possibility they could design it to be functionally useful.

Also, 2D will hopefully keep loading times down. I want to get in and out of town screens quickly.

edit: Also, I don't mean they can't render the graphics in 3D. I just don't want to have to rotate around the town. I want the camera to be static.

Kartabon
01-12-2011, 02:16 PM
2D, I really LOVE it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Oakie's screenshot made me feel like to play some turns to that magnific game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I don't like 3d-effects in towns (maybe in map or battles... but not in towns) i really didn't like much the 3d in towns, and it's a waste of time in design and programming time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (in my humble opinion of course!)

Destruction3402
01-12-2011, 03:05 PM
2D is more artful (like a moving picture).
Therefore I vote for 2D.

Dergos
01-13-2011, 04:42 AM
2d since using the town image as an interface is just much more awesome then ignoring the 3d en using an ordinary interface

Warlord_Ade
01-13-2011, 09:25 AM
Think it's got two be 2D myself, dont see anything wrong with that!

Lift0
01-13-2011, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by Oakwarrior:
Anyone remember the H2 town screens? Bloody awesome.
2D all the way. It has way more artistic and eye-candy potential, plus it'll be pressuring your PC less performance-wise, so it's a win-win situation over 3D I'd say http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Or maybe I'm just nostalgic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/17166/1283883-wizard_super.gif
If that's not completely awesome, then I don't know what is (well at least it was for its time).
Image courtesy of Google >_>

The H3 town screens sort of felt... hmm, worse. It blended in with itself too much, making them seem bland ('cept for Inferno and Necro those were good).

Yeah, the HOMMII game will always be the number one RPG/Strategy game for me. But come on, it's 2011 now, we can't have 2D towns, can we? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

GoranXII
01-13-2011, 04:37 PM
I wonder...how many of you 2Ders here would vote 2D if the only 2D screens we had were the boring ones from H4?

mcgslo
01-14-2011, 01:41 AM
goran: Well that was not the question... better make seperate thread and when making pool add screens from H1,H2,H3,H4,H5... i would do it... but dont have the time lately http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oh yea i am for 2D or semi 2D(2,5D or whatever 2D isometric is ).... town screens.

Asterisk
01-24-2011, 08:43 AM
I'm for static 3D. That way devs can add lighting, smoke and other eye candy. I'd also like to see my castle buildings shown on the map.

Ro.Floro
01-24-2011, 09:22 AM
I think players should be given a choice....they should be able to switch between 2D and 3D screens....

I don't know if it's even possible....I was just trying to find a solution to the problem...

Anyway....3D is much better than 2D.Old-fashioned people, WE'RE IN 2011!!!

Asterisk
01-24-2011, 12:00 PM
^ Not gonna happen. Irrelevant to gameplay.

What I don't get is why people prefer mediocre 3D models over eye candy 2D art...

Ro.Floro
02-02-2011, 03:24 AM
Because people want to explore the castle.
They don't want to stare at a completely still image with some small hills and 2 or 3 buildings atop them...
Because we're in 2011 and the technology allows us to do that,not in 1990...
And why is is irrelevant to gameplay to have an option taht can be switched on and off regarding the 2D/3D models of the town screens...that will make all the players, including the ones who are trapped in time...around the 90's.

Asterisk
02-02-2011, 11:09 PM
It's irrelevant, 'cause it won't change your in-game decisions. And I'd rather see a beautiful, memorable and inspiring 2D picture than soulless, forgettable and uninvolving 3D model.

Oh wait, I forgot, it's 2011 - museums with their million $ paintings are not cool anymore, gotta find holographic art. Oh shizz! There are none...

Xenofex_086
02-03-2011, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by Asterisk:

What I don't get is why people prefer mediocre 3D models over eye candy 2D art... Because they read on the Internet that 2D is old-fashioned and nobody likes it. The funnier part is that even if you find a million people who say otherwise, it will still be old-fashioned and nobody will like it according to people who have read someone's comment somewhere that 2D is always bad and 3D is always good.

Dark-Whisperer
02-03-2011, 03:03 AM
Granted 2D pictures can be work of art, beautiful and stunning but they will always be still image captured in time, motionless... dead. With 3D if properly executed true artist can make living, breathing world full of life and motion. 2D even animated looks artificial. Smoke, lights, wind, crowd motion and many other effects are much more powerful if presented in 3D. That's why all AAA games use exclusively 3D graphic. Sure you can always find some beautiful 2D artwork and crappy 3D and vice versa and compare the two to support your opinion but truth is that non of art is lost with 3D. In all honesty I think that people who are so keen to stay in 2D world have outdated hardware and they should admit it.

Xenofex_086
02-03-2011, 03:44 AM
3.4 Ghz Quad Core
1 Gb video
4 Gb 1333 Mhz RAM

... and I'm in favour of 2D when it comes to towns screens. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Dark-Whisperer
02-03-2011, 03:54 AM
Then you just don't trust art department that they can make awesome 3D town screen. If your hardware can pull full 3D effect on highest setting and you still prefer 2D its like you say that you prefer to watch tropical island sunset on TV than to actually be there.

Xenofex_086
02-03-2011, 04:45 AM
No, I don't really trust them and gameplay-wise this is an unnecessary luxury which will consume a lot of time to be developed and ultimately won't differ from the 2D screens when it comes to functionality. Most likely it will be even worse - the 3D Heroes V towns are less interactive than the towns in any previous Heroes.

Thunion
02-03-2011, 06:23 AM
3D>2D in MOST of cases..but not alwayss..I mean the towns were only able to rotate so it was no way you will interact with city any other way then just looking at it..in 2d heroes i acctualy used buildings not just done everything in menu,so in this case 2d>3d becouse 3d is just to watch 2 times:1 Wehn you see city first time and 2and to watch better a full builded city in all its glory(some do that some not) IF they will be able to make camera that flies over whole city and i will have ability to easely selcet buildings i want i will be for 3d(With free camera i mean ability to turn into "invisible flying guy" and see it all from first person) but there is one problem with it... it needs time,alots of it and i dont think good 3d townscreen is worth of time,so for now i am for 2d

Dark-Whisperer
02-03-2011, 08:55 AM
So If I understand correctly main arguments against 3D towns are functionality and that they are too time consuming for developers to make.

About functionality - first approach by developers was best from functionality side of view - no town screen. No loading time, just menu that is easy and clear to navigate, few clicks and you can continue your journey. Very fast, very efficient, very easy.
And yet it was abandoned. Why?
Because people love to see their own town. They like to watch it grow and expand, to admire its beauty and how majestic it is fully built. To see where all hard work and resources are gone.
Like it or not its not just about functionality. Its about graphic too.
I personally never click on each of dwellings on town screen to buy creatures, I just click on button that leads me to list of creatures that I can buy, same goes for building screen. So IMHO you don't really need to interact with town screen itself - you can, but its not optimal solution and you will not use it in long run anyway, no matter if its 2D or 3D and you will end up using GUI.

As far as its time consuming argument, I agree. But I don't care.
I want perfect game with no corner cutting. I want things to be done to the maximum of todays technology. If it can be done in reasonable amount of time (and I understand thats now not the case) it should be done.
I really don't want to see Heroes VII in 2015 with 2D screens because people now said that its ok. It isn't ok. And they should know it.

Thunion
02-03-2011, 09:16 AM
Homm 3 never had a gui..and nobody never ever cried about it.
Btw ppl want to see theyr town,yes.But they love 2d "Painting" and one more thing i noticed down here:The main aspect is not graphics,its not 3d or 2d its town MUSIC.So there is not much diffrence 2d or 3d you will stop looking at it after some time.So i gonna use your own example.
Does it worth of buyng tropical island to watch is sunset every day(Lets say no more bonuses just sunset) instead of just hanging a picture of it on your wall?
Still 2d is much easeier to navigate and navigating trough town yourself to enter market etc.(Of course you buy monsters in one place..its to time consuming to find and enter 7 places to buy them) gives more pleasure then just clicking one menu..
I would love to see really good and polished 3town screen but it too time consuming(and recources as xenofex mentions in next post)and gig or 2 may be issue for ppl like me who have only 80gb total on comp..(And of course i really hope h6 will run on 1k ram couse those guys promised not to increase system requiments much,i remember readed it somewhere)

Xenofex_086
02-03-2011, 09:17 AM
You are taking the "functionality" part to the extreme, nobody will agree to have the town screens scrapped just because this will be the easiest to make and the most functional approach at the same time. But you'll have difficulties convincing many people that 3D town screens are necessary. They aren't. I for example didn't like half of the 3D towns from Heroes V, they looked dead, plastic, very unpolished and cheap. 3D can be your enemy because while you can tolerate relatively deserted 2D landscape, when you add one more dimension, the thing becomes a real desert which ruins whatever good impression the third dimension is responsible for. I'd trade any Heroes V town for any Heroes III/II one any time. It's a matter of preference.
And seriously, who wants the game to become heavier just because one ton of the hardware resources will have to be dedicated to a needless eye candy? The performance was a terrible issue in Heroes V, some people still have nightmares - let's not do this again please!

Pitsu
02-03-2011, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by Dark-Whisperer:
Granted 2D pictures can be work of art, beautiful and stunning but they will always be still image captured in time, motionless... dead. With 3D if properly executed true artist can make living, breathing world full of life and motion. 2D even animated looks artificial.

Video cameras have not made photography obsolete and we can only wonder whether the paints for drawing are any older than skills to sculpture. IMO saying that 2D art is worse art than 3D is about as sensible as saying that singing is greater art than dancing or a cow is more an animal than a horse. You can have a personal opinion that 2D is artificial, but that is your problem. IMO the still images often are much better at capturing certain essence or spirit. But that is my opinion.
With the art being a matter of taste (and makers skills, which we do not know) it is the functionality part that can be argued based on facts and logic. And while i admit that theoretically it is possible to get the same functionality in 3D, it is much simpler and efficient to do it in 2D. One of the beauties in H1-3 was how the user interface was merged into the game and town screens were the most excellent examples. You did interact with the town, not with UI. And, as Thunion said, it was not your choice, but there simply was no typical UI available.

Dark-Whisperer
02-03-2011, 12:25 PM
I wholeheartedly agree that for better immersion there must be option to actually click on buildings in your town then to click on GUI button. It creates better connection with your town and sense of "belonging" that I stress so much.
I just say that world has moved on. Transition from 2D to 3D is most natural thing with better computers. And that if done right it can be much better then 2D can ever be. And I'm talking about computer graphic not painters or sculptors.
What I cannot accept is that you still bring hardware power into equation. Just before Xenofex gave us what kind of configuration he has I mentioned that 2D screens are preferred by people who have slow computers and you proved me right.
Rest is just preference, still picture or moving world and I have feeling that even in that decision hardware power plays major role.

And yes if I could buy an island and not feel it on my checkbook I would do it without thinking - just to watch sunsets http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Xenofex_086
02-03-2011, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Dark-Whisperer:

What I cannot accept is that you still bring hardware power into equation. Just before Xenofex gave us what kind of configuration he has I mentioned that 2D screens are preferred by people who have slow computers and you proved me right. This is more about commons sense than about the capabilities of the hardware. You seem to be suggesting a hardware-intensive solution which will take a lot of time (and money) to be developed and will reduce the number of the potential customers only to those owning powerful machines. If this was some 3D shooter where the graphics is more than half of the game, I can understand such approach no matter whether I like it or not. But this is a TBS with RPG elements (or RPG with TBS elements - we'll see what Heroes VI will be) and the towns screens themselves are 90% aesthetics and have almost no impact on the gameplay - in the later stages of the game they are rarely accessed at all. Indeed, aesthetics that many people will refuse to sacrifice, but definitely not important enough to risk the playability because of them. And still 2D could be made to look just as good as 3D. The only fact here is that for several years nobody tries to do so.

Dark-Whisperer
02-03-2011, 01:12 PM
What I don't understand is why you think that town screen done with maximal attention to details and visual effect will be more hardware intensive then adventure map with literally hundreds of moving trees, shadows, light effects, creatures, buildings, water...

Asterisk
02-03-2011, 02:53 PM
To me, Machinarium has more soul than Heroes 5... And Machinarium is just a freakin' FLASH GAME. Totally immersive and atmospheric.

Unfortunately, 8 times out of 10 developers ditch better looking 2D for sh!tty looking 3D. Heroes 5 is a great example. Look at all those smudged, squared looking figures... WTF? Where is the appeal? Why is POS looking 3D model favored to artistically drawn out sprite? Can somebody tell me?

Ro.Floro
02-03-2011, 06:04 PM
I totally agree with Dark-Whisperer.
And as he said,the town screen doesn't set the graphic accesibility of the game. I mean the 3D town-screen won't raise the games' system requirements at all...there are other things that will do that...things that are not happening in the castle...like "hundreds of moving trees, shadows, light effects, creatures, buildings, water..." and i noticed one thing...the reflection on the water: very well made...it will make your computer move like crap...
I don't have such a strong pc. Dual-core 2.6, 4 Gb RAM and 256 video. But still...the game will work properly.

And one more thing...I don't think you understood. There should be a 2D\3D option in the menu,just like quick combat on\off...get it? So that we won't have to fight anymore...and it may not seem relevant to gameplay...but it is very nice to be able to switch between the wonderful 3D town and the accesible 2D one. DON'T YOU THINK?

Xenofex_086
02-04-2011, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by Dark-Whisperer:
What I don't understand is why you think that town screen done with maximal attention to details and visual effect will be more hardware intensive then adventure map with literally hundreds of moving trees, shadows, light effects, creatures, buildings, water... I'm not an expert on these things, but the game should utilize the hardware resources an block and not, say, 700 Mb of the RAM memory dedicated exclusively to the adventure map and another 300 Mb - to the town screens. So if you have a heavy adventure map and a heavy town screen, then they'll both result in a resource-intensive game. I think Heroes IV in particular had a loading bar between the adventure map and the town screen, which tended to become quite a nuisance once the game has eaten the system resources. The town screen in Heroes V was lagging after several game weeks as well - and not only on weak machines. So generally the overall performance should degrade faster if the town screen consumes too much resources - something which is unacceptable for me, especially given that 3D may not look better or may even look worse than 2D.

Thunion
02-04-2011, 03:19 AM
There should be a 2D\3D option in the menu,just like quick combat on\off...get it?
Noooo,it would consume double of the time needed to create townscreen

Dark-Whisperer
02-04-2011, 04:12 AM
Why are we are still stuck on computer power when its proven that Heroes V were working just fine with 3D town screen and all bells and whistles on average computer four years ago? And that game has graphic that is good even by today's standards.
If you didn't upgrade your computer since then how can you expect to play game which will be released in 2011. If your hardware is obsolete just crank graphic knob on medium or low, accept that your machine can't handle newest games instead of asking developers to make graphically outdated games. Computer market changes extremely fast, everyone knows that, and everybody should acknowledge that you can play newest games in full detail with four years old computer.
And if you have computer that can handle newest games in full detail why wouldn't you want it to be the best it can be?
Sure, modern graphic its not necessary for game to be playable, to have "soul" and appeal, but its big plus. Developers can certainly make full 2D heroes, but would you say that they should do that so that people with ten year old computers can play it?
And again all other complaints against 3D town screens are just fasade for lack of hardware power. I know it and you know it.

Thunion
02-04-2011, 04:39 AM
First of all no my computer cant handle newest games (sadly) But i can sware i readed somewhere that homm6 wont have increased hardware requirements,hats first...Second why do you add heroes 5 3d screen? Its sucked if they want to have a good 3d screen they need to do alots of work here..Lets for example remember Fortress when you build tear of ashe..Its is a wonderful structure and should be "Construction miracle" But the hell player even cant see it good way it is hanging somwhere there and you cant get closer to it... Firstly as i know 2d is allready confrimed,and to make a good 3d need alots of more recources which anyway will result in slower loading times even on good comps,which will **** the game up...nobody wants to wait for action that needs to be done very turn...

Xenofex_086
02-04-2011, 05:01 AM
Originally posted by Dark-Whisperer:
Why are we are still stuck on computer power when its proven that Heroes V were working just fine with 3D town screen and all bells and whistles on average computer four years ago? Heroes V performance was disastrous even on fully up-to-date machines, I don't know what you are talking about. For a game with so unpolished eye-candies, it was incredibly heavy.

Developers can certainly make full 2D heroes, but would you say that they should do that so that people with ten year old computers can play it? Nobody asks them to do it as they are fully aware that the people who'll buy a fully 2D game these days are few, given that the target audience for the majority of the games is 15-20 year old kiddies.

And again all other complaints against 3D town screens are just fasade for lack of hardware power. I know it and you know it. I think I pasted you a general summary of my hardware, do you think it's incapable of running a game full of eye-candies? It is, believe me. Still I value the performance more than the blasted 3D, i.e. I want to game to run smoothly even after 2-3 hours, not to be tedious to play after a bit more than 1 hour and nigh unplayable after 2 hours like Heroes V was. And let me say it again - many of the Heroes V towns looked inferior compared to their Heroes II/III counterparts as far as I'm concerned.

mcgslo
02-04-2011, 05:24 AM
overall i support arguments for 2D screens. Like stated many times before...townscreen should be 2D or "2.5D".
3D perspective is not better or evolution from 2D. Specially in strategy games.
Even in newly RTS games i like better if 3D was locked and you cant turn camera....

So yea make beautiful "2.5D" interactive town screen with functional and optimized creature dwelings (buy them in one place), and basicly interactive other buildings.
Even 2D screen can be animated.... but rotatable camera is bad and i couldnt care less for 3D townscreen specially if you spend more in Advanture map, hero stats/skills, or market/trade, battle...

+ they better spend their time creating super fast AI , random map generator, and good chalanging gameplay, and some what add more complexity and to make game deep as possible... so at least after 1 year of gameplay you still say "oh.. i didnt know that"

+i am extra happy that game is not on consoles and they wont have excuse to dumb down my favorite game.

Thunion
02-04-2011, 06:33 AM
+i am extra happy that game is not on consoles and they wont have excuse to dumb down my favorite game.
Hate consoles... becouse of them best wrestling for pc is 10(or more)years old....

Asterisk
02-04-2011, 06:52 AM
@ Dark-Whisperer

I've got Q6600 with GeForce GTX 295 and 2 Velociraptors in RAID0. Still want more aesthetic appeal in a game than squared, smudged 3D shiznit.

As I said, I'm not against 3D. I'm against sloppy 3D that devs create nowadays. I'd rather have polished out 2D instead. The only game that impressed me with its 3D was Sacred so far. (Talking about top-down view games).

Dark-Whisperer
02-04-2011, 07:41 AM
@Xenofex_086


Nobody asks them to do it as they are fully aware that the people who'll buy a fully 2D game these days are few, given that the target audience for the majority of the games is 15-20 year old kiddies.

If you are suggesting that you would be fine with completely 2D Heroes today and that you accepted 3D just because you know that nobody will make it with ten years old graphic I can understand why you don't think 3D screens are better.
If you are serious that graphic from 1999 Heroes III can beat 2006 Heroes V in any way our views are completely different. If you want to live in the past it doesn't really matter how good computer you have.
I cannot argue with that point of view.

There is nothing childish in asking for better graphic and nicer eyecandies with modern graphic and there is nothing hardcore in wanting to play 1999 clone.

And to blame drop of performance of Heroes V on 3D town screens is just silly.

Anyway, developers included community too late in development process, so when they learned there had to be town screens in the game virtually no time was left to make anything better than 2D. And thats what we are going to get - rushed 2D screens. And BTW those screens are still not ready. LOL!

When you make move forward like Heroes V did after so many years, some mistakes are bound to happen, but right path is to learn from them, listen to the community, and make it perfect next time, make people jaws drop, not to revert to old design because you don't know what else to do. If developers continue to look back and use technology that nobody else uses anymore they will end up with product no one wants to buy.

@Asterisk
Why you believe that art department will make polished 2D and not that polished 3D? Time has run out for Heroes VI town screens but for next Heroes I expect polished 3D ones.

Thunion
02-04-2011, 08:53 AM
listen to the community
You know what they listened...Community screamed for 2d townscreens

znork
02-04-2011, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by Thunion:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">listen to the community
You know what they listened...Community screamed for 2d townscreens </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

grate point

Dark-Whisperer
02-04-2011, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Thunion:
You know what they listened...Community screamed for 2d townscreens
I don't think so. Community just demanded town screens. There was no time for anything else then 2D. We could asked for whatever we want but we would get 2D anyway. 50 people who voted on this poll are 55% to 45% in favor of 2D and that just people who visit this zombie forum.
I cannot help myself to wander what will happen when game is released and all those "kids" who never have played Heroes 3 or bothered to come here and and read FAQ see 2D screens...

wdcryer
02-04-2011, 11:40 AM
Is the debate here really between 2D and 3D graphics or fixed vs. movable camera. I'm pretty confident the town screen will be 3D, although it may be pre-rendered with a fixed camera. If that improves the time it takes to access it, I'll be all for it.

Dark-Whisperer
02-04-2011, 11:49 AM
If they make it in 3D with fixed camera but not pre-rendered I would be really, really satisfied - thats clearly way to go. But in short amount of time I think we will get art like Heroes 3 flat picture.

znork
02-04-2011, 11:54 AM
A 2d townscreen is the best coice its easy to nagvigate. 3d townscreen would just be confusing.

wdcryer
02-04-2011, 12:09 PM
I think we should probably use the term fixed-camera instead of 2D. I get confused when people use the term 2D about whether they are referring to a fixed-camera or Heroes 3 style graphics. In many cases it seems people are referring to both.

Fixed-camera is the easiest to navigate.

Thunion
02-05-2011, 01:42 AM
Well Fixed camera 3d would be good choice>i mean somthing like taking homm3 townscreen and remaking it to 3d.Also right now 2d wining 27 against 23 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.So this kind of fusing 2d and 3d would work best.

Xenofex_086
02-05-2011, 03:43 AM
There is nothing childish in asking for better graphic and nicer eyecandies with modern graphic and there is nothing hardcore in wanting to play 1999 clone. That's not what you are asking for, you are asking for 3D towns screens. When people say that they find 2D to be more beautiful, you say that it's not 1999 any more and... well, this is enough to prove that 3D is better looking. WTF?

And to blame drop of performance of Heroes V on 3D town screens is just silly. That's not what I said. The 3D town screens of Heroes V contribute to the performance degradation, they are not the only cause for this issue. Still it is enough the town screen to load slowly and its animations to lag once the thing is finally accessed to make me hate the idea of resource-intensive town screens.

Ro.Floro
02-05-2011, 05:31 AM
As long as the gameplay is exceptional, I think i won't mind the townscreen.
But still...3D is far better-looking than 2D. I played H3 after playing H5, I liked it even if it was in 2D...but no more, man. I really hate seeing that almost non-movable, dead-like, phantomatic castle...even with eyecandies it will never surpass not even the ****tiest 3D.
And whoever says that he did not liked the 3D town screens from H5 must be blind. They were incredibly awesome...when i first saw them i was i young kid...14 years...i didn't even know how to play Heroes back then, but the town screens fascinated me...then I started to watch my friends play and in no time i learned to play...
I really am the best at playing H5 from all the persons I know...H3 is old and burried and it should stay there...don't uncover old, lost passions...
We're in 2011 and a game has to raise to the graphics of our time...at least that is what I think...I may be crazy,but I think I'm right.
P.S. Dark-Whisperer is a debate genius. He really has unbreakable arguments.

Thunion
02-05-2011, 08:29 AM
don't uncover old, lost passions...
First off all old? Yes Lost? No... You see i can bet that now there is much more ppl playng homm3 then homm5.And then again if we would have townscreen just to watch the yes 3d>2d.But then whats point from townscreen at all? If you played homm3 you should know that there was no such thing as UI If you want to build wariors you click on castle,if you want to buy artifacts click on artifact merchant etc.What do we have in 5th heroes Once saw a townscreen looked at it for 5 min and its all,you will ses townscreen only for few seconds just to enter damn ui.Why they placed UI at all? Becouse when they saw how horrible is to interact with town they had no time to switch townscreens so made damn UI.Also camera rotation is horrible as i sayed before lets get for example Fortress:You build tear of asha and it should be architectical miracle but you cant even see it in a good way becouse its somewhere deep inside.You ever saw Full builded town in homm3? It shines in glory,every detail is visable and you see every single building you have builded clearly.

Dark-Whisperer
02-05-2011, 08:38 AM
@Xenofex_086

That sentence was taken out of context. I was commenting one of your statements. Whole thing goes:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Nobody asks them to do it as they are fully aware that the people who'll buy a fully 2D game these days are few, given that the target audience for the majority of the games is 15-20 year old kiddies.

There is nothing childish in asking for better graphic and nicer eyecandies with modern graphic and there is nothing hardcore in wanting to play 1999 clone.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Nobody asks them to do it" part is about making entirely 2D heroes mentioned in my previous post.

I was just saying that I don't agree with your opinion that purpose of 3D graphic and eyecandies is to satisfy children and that 2D should be just fine for modern games and older, more mature audience.

Lousy AI and memory leaks are to blame for drop in performance in Heroes V. Town screens maybe contributed to the issue but in so minimal amount its not worth mentioning. I personally never had issue with town screens loading time or lag, and I had standard machine for that time.
But that were Heroes V. Why cant you just put some trust in developers and believe that this time graphic engine will perform as it should. I'm sure that any average computer will handle this game without breaking a sweat.

What I think is that people who are so keen to keep 2D (in town screens and in game) and don't have hardware problem are so much in love with Heroes 3 that it is idolized in their eyes. No other heroes game didn't and will not rise to its glory and perfection. Town screens 12 years old are still the best, graphic on adventure map has unparalleled beauty and AI is fastest and smartest so it feels like and playing against living opponent. I guess nothing else but remake of Heroes 3 can satisfy them and no argument cant change their mind.

And the rest of the world has moved on.

There are so many new generations of players that have never played Heroes 3. This franchise has to attract them to stay alive. With so many attractive games around, Heroes simply cannot afford to lag behind and cut corners. Not even in town screens. And rushed 2D town screens as effect of poor judgment by developers is what we are facing now. I don't think thats the best position for 2011 game.

Thunion
02-05-2011, 08:53 AM
And one more time in heroes 5 townscreens are more beuteful but they are totaly usless.And i prefer functionality over beuty(In reasonable amounts of course..) and all heroes before 5th hadnt any functionality problems.Of course you will say use UI,but whats point of townscreen at all then?

wdcryer
02-05-2011, 08:59 AM
If they're going 3D fixed-camera, I don't see why they couldn't render out each building before hand from one angle. If you don't move the camera, there's not much point in leaving the buildings as 3D objects. If they do that, I don't see why there would be much of a performance problem.

I liked the old 2D town screens, but I can't imagine them actually using them in Heroes 6. I think they're capable of doing a good job with 3D, and I'd vote for fixed-camera.

Xenofex_086
02-05-2011, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by Dark-Whisperer:

I was just saying that I don't agree with your opinion that purpose of 3D graphic and eyecandies is to satisfy children and that 2D should be just fine for modern games and older, more mature audience. Yes and what I meant is that the purpose of 3D is mainly to satisfy these "younger audience". See the reaction of someone who was "14 year old when he first saw the Heroes V town screens". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I am not against 3D, nor against eye-candies, but while I recognize the existence of 2D eye-candies and 3D eye-candies, you and these "youngsters" simply focus only on the 3D like nothing else on this world matters. Well OK, that's your opinion, but saying that if someone likes 2D town screens then he's a hopeless Heroes III hardcore fan and this is all about nostalgia, then you've got another thing coming. Apart from the fact that many people actually favor the Heroes II town screens over the Heroes III ones (they are really nice indeed), your position is just biased and can't be helped as such.

Why cant you just put some trust in developers and believe that this time graphic engine will perform as it should Too many unfulfilled promises over the years in my case, that's why I don't buy anything about Heroes VI before I actually see it in action. If they make it, it looks good and works well, nobody will complain. But normally it's not that simple.

Town screens maybe contributed to the issue but in so minimal amount its not worth mentioning There is no point in arguing about this any longer, it's a fact that they the town screens in Heroes V were the heaviest and the least interactive in the series while not everybody will agree that they were the most beautiful. That's my point since the beginning of this discussion.

rushed 2D town screens We don't know if they are rushed or not yet. When we see them, we'll pass judgment.

Ro.Floro
02-05-2011, 10:32 AM
Nowadays people want to see something resembling the reality...that's why 3D is better than 2D.
Another example that will support my point of view: Would you rather watch a game of football or anything you like at home or be there,on the stadium,watching your favourite players in action...that is if you have money,of course. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Thunion
02-05-2011, 11:45 AM
Nowadays people want to see something resembling the reality
Yeah i really like that homm6 got griffins,angels etc. that are resembling reality perfectly.
Btw from your example you refering not to 2d/3d but to Playng the game/Being on tribuns Near combat

Dark-Whisperer
02-05-2011, 12:19 PM
Since it obviously that we cant find same ground about beauty and maximum possibilities that 2D and 3D techniques offer and since both our views are biased I can say only this:

Can anyone name me an AAA production game made in last 3 years that has any part except menus done in 2D? I cant remember any.

I'm not against 2D. Somebody mentioned Machinarium. When independent publisher with crew of 5 people in a year make game 2D game I can say... Thats nice idea, great graphic.
But it will stay just an flash indie game made for less money then big publisher spend in a month. For that kind of game you cant expect people to cough up 50 euros/dollars.

Somebody also mentioned Civ V. That game could be made completely in 2D without any gameplay loss and they didn't use 2D. Even game with such big and loyal fanbase wouldn't gamble with such a thing. And it looks awesome.

When you spend 2+ years creating game with big developer and after spending shizz(Asterisk TM) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif load of money on it you expect certain amount of quality.

And why I think that 2D screens are rushed?
There is reassurance in Q&A that there will be town screens as proof their first idea was to not to have any kind of town screens. And on HC forum Xhane said that town screens are not ready yet to be shown to public.
I call it rush because they had almost 3 years to make a game and they are creating from scratch important part of it in last 6 months because of their missjudgement of peoples reaction.
Further more on first and so far only gameplay video we have only placeholders instead of townscreens and they said it wasn't because they wanted to hide screens but because there were none.

And again Im all for full 3D with fixed camera. I think thats best solution by far - interactive town without need to rotate with all benefits of 3D. Resource friendly and good looking.

Thunion
02-05-2011, 01:08 PM
First of all no other AAA game realesed in last 3 years got such townscreen as Heroes series.Civilizations dont have real townscreen either.So there is nothing you can compare heores townscreens to.
If they will be able to make interactive 3D town screen i am for 3D.But till they hadnt dont that i am for 2D all the way.Problem is that it very hard to create interactive 3D townscreen without any need UI,Which means alots of time will be spended on it,and if those guys will say we are realising game in march and work on townscreen instead of more important things like game balance it wont be good.

And btw Odin Sphere realesed in 2007 full 2d.
King of Fighters XII of 2009 2d to..

Ro.Floro
02-05-2011, 01:42 PM
Maybe it will be better if we'll leave this issue be...
I don't think that we're going to accomplish anything by argueing.
There will be a town screen and we'll see it soon.
Until then it looks like we'll just have to wait. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I still hope it will be 3D and I hope it will be better than the H5 onehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Dark-Whisperer
02-05-2011, 01:48 PM
Odin Sphere? King of Fighters XII? Firstly those two games are not even made for PC platform, and second - AAA? Sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
If Heroes is in same rank with these two its doomed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Roseluxe
02-05-2011, 03:06 PM
Civilization has a screen with leader and developers made it in 3D...
Anyway, I voted for 3d))) BTW, I was shocked by comparison 2D townscreens with pictures in art gallery. The townscreen has complicated structure with a lot of details on every building + the amount of these buildings is great too. That's why 2D townscreens looked too heavy for eyes(imho). While pictures in art gallery are awesome because they are not include so many important things and details there require to supplement the main idea... One of the simplest rule for artists or designers is to not make a lot of things that requires our attention in one project. For example, can you imagine your own town with all of sights and places that should be seen by tourists in one picture. This picture would be too small( if yo? want to show the difference and distance between them) or places just kill each other because viewer would not know where to look.
For example, let us look at haven castle in HOMM3. What have we on the small picture: barracks with archers, swordsmen, pikemen, griffin tower. OK with that... But also we have here a market, docks, monastery, stables and hippodrome, mage tower and above all of that a gates with angels... I can't imagine town with a structure like this))) Though I like HOMM3.
I just want to say that 2D screen will never be ideal, well at least for me. I know that townscreen in HOMM5 was not perfect either but it was a bold step to the great future. And btw why do you have to be so angry with graphic in 5th generation of heroes? Games would never be like real life and captiousness to graphic will never leads you to your desires...

Thunion
02-06-2011, 07:59 AM
Posted Sat February 05 2011 12:48 Hide Post
Odin Sphere? King of Fighters XII? Firstly those two games are not even made for PC platform, and second - AAA? They are AAA i checked... I dont say those are good games if you put them near homm i just found total 2D games as you asked(and you dont mentioned platform),There a plenty of games with "any part except menus done in 2D"

Dark-Whisperer
02-06-2011, 09:39 AM
So you managed to find bad AAA 2D games - my point exactly.

Thunion
02-06-2011, 10:22 AM
Not Really...
I Sad i managed to find Full 2D game to prove that you were wrong...You sayed that there is no game that uses 2D in anything more then menu.Full 2D game is bad but its not even near our disccusion point.We talking about one single part of the game...Problem is that there is nothing to compare to..Most games just have adventure/battle and heroes uses 3D in those and we arent discusing it.
As i sayed Functionality>Beuty(If you think diffrent go watch a movie not play games) And in this 2D>3D for now.(Considering we talk about townscreens)

Dark-Whisperer
02-06-2011, 10:42 AM
How come that you are stuck in mindset that 3D cant be functional? Just because you don't like functionality in Heroes V you cant say for a fact that 2D is more functional in every case. If you think Heroes should keep 2D screens in all next iterations you just live in the past. Simple as that. New technology will overrun you, like it or not.
For me Heroes V had perfectly functional Town screen. GUI served its purpose. What is lost is a bit of immersion because you couldn't click on every building without rotating camera.
I'm confident that 3D screens can be as much functional as 2D ones you want if done properly. Then we will have beautiful and functional screens not just one of those. And thats what I ultimately want from Heroes - perfection, not half solutions from ancient era.

Thunion
02-06-2011, 11:16 AM
Appearently you dont even read the full post...


And in this 2D>3D for now.
And more about functionality

GUI served its purpose
Thats from one of my previous posts.

Of course you will say use UI,but whats point of townscreen at all then?

Ro.Floro
02-06-2011, 11:16 AM
I propose the dev team should jump over H6 and make H7 directly. :P
Dark-Whisperer, it seems to me that you almost want 2D town screens. Locked camera 3D town screen = 2D town screen. That's how I see it...prove me otherwise if I'm wrong. there should be a free-roaming camera and a 3D town screen AND THAT'S IT!!!
I think this discussion has to come to an end!
There is no more aspects we should argue about.
Let the devs decide if they want to sell the game or not...

Thunion
02-06-2011, 11:22 AM
Locked camera 3D town screen = 2D town screen.

prove me otherwise if I'm wrong.

Ok i will...You see we can call it 2.5D or somthing similar to that but by no means 2D..


2.5D ("two-and-a-half-dimensional"), 3/4 perspective and pseudo-3D are terms used to describe either:
gameplay in an otherwise three-dimensional video game that is restricted to a two-dimensional plane.

And btw you are not creator of this topic so its not for you to decide when it gone to an end..

Xenofex_086
02-06-2011, 11:31 AM
Nowadays people want to see something resembling the reality...that's why 3D is better than 2D. I guess next you're going to explain me what should form my taste properly. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Can anyone name me an AAA production game made in last 3 years that has any part except menus done in 2D? I cant remember any. I can't see your point here - 2D is not good because 3D is used more frequently? Or you mean something else?

Ro.Floro
02-06-2011, 01:28 PM
I think you understood me wrong...3D with fixed camera is't exactly as 2D...I'm not ******ed, you know?
I understand what is 2D and 3D. I meant that I don't see the use of 3D with fixed camera...it might as well be 2D. In that case(I mean if it's going to be 3D with fixed camera) i would like to see 2D, because the computer shouldn't "suffer" because of an overloaded town screen.

Thunion
02-06-2011, 01:39 PM
well first of all "Locked camera 3D town screen = 2D town screen." i didint saw any other way to understand it...
NExt there is a diffrence of beuty.3d camera looks more as you sayed realistc then 2d it makes a townscreen more living while still maintainig 2ds functionality.However with rotating 3d i dont see any way it can be at least as a bit as close as interacting as 2d.However "2.5D" will need more work and recources to do.Also it easier to make a mystake here.

Ya5MieL
02-06-2011, 02:31 PM
As long as it is functional and pretty looking, 2d or 3d doesn't really matter.

2D can work. 3D can work. Can't really argue either of those statements unless one is nitpicking.

Here is an "early 3d angle of H3 rampart" to peace out the warring sides http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/8602/rampart.jpg

Dark-Whisperer
02-06-2011, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Xenofex_086:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Can anyone name me an AAA production game made in last 3 years that has any part except menus done in 2D? I cant remember any. I can't see your point here - 2D is not good because 3D is used more frequently? Or you mean something else? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I apparently wasn't clear enough. Let me clarify.
Can anyone name me a game made by big developer and publisher with successful franchise name, made recently that is using 2D graphic?
All successful games and franchises switched to 3D even if they didn't need too. Fallout, Civilization, Settlers to name a few.
Game industry is business. If no serious developer chose to use 2D in any part of their product for such a long time it says something. Its not that 2D is not used frequently is that its not used at all by big companies. Companies that can choose how they will make games.

Do you honestly still think that 2D is as good as 3D but its not used because... no idea why... Or you just think that veteran developer companies make mistake by using 3D graphic?

Fixed camera or not no other technology can transfer motion and effect as smoke, ripples on the water, moving leaves and branches, light, dust, atmospheric effect as lightning, clouds, rain, snow or fog. Results can be impressive, but you already know that.

There is no sentiment involved when it comes to making money - there is just question for what kind of graphic people are going to pay for and its clearly 3D games for many reasons. I won't explain further all advantages of 3D technology just because you play naive to prove your point.

And again about functionality - Fixed camera was already introduced in Heroes VI because somehow Heroes players get confused when they have to rotate camera. People who can drive a car trough traffic, who can play FPS or RTS, somehow cant find which side is up on adventure map even with unlimited time to do it. Thats why I can settle with fixed camera in town screens - if adventure map have fixed camera, town screens might as well, just as long as I have enough people to play with.

With this franchise, this level of production and this developer I expected nothing else but perfection. I wont get it this time. Disappointing. But I hope there will be next time. Next Heroes.

Xenofex_086
02-06-2011, 04:31 PM
@Dark-Whisperer, you didn't have to type all this Captain Obvious post, my point is completely different. I'm not willing to discuss the transition to 3D chosen by the majority of the devs/publishers, that's beside the point. We are discussing whether 2D town screens look better/worse/as good as 3D town screens and in the context of this discussion it's completely irrelevant how many 2D games are out there nowadays. 2D town screens in Heroes have enough supporters, so don't worry - they won't hurt the sales at all especially given that the rest of the game is fully 3D.

Ya5MieL
02-06-2011, 04:36 PM
There is no question that the *game itself* should be 3d.

However both 2d and 3d town screens are acceptable. Some parts of the game don't profit from 3d as much.

I would compare H6 town screen to WoW's talent tab screen. It is 2d for a reason - 3d would make it overcomplicated without need. And if it works for some details in wow which is biggest money making game at the moment, then it certainly could work in Heroes. Keyword is could, as I'm not promoting either of the options, just saying that both can work.

Whether they end up being 2d or 3d is completely irrelevant, as long as they play out well in the grand scheme of the game overall.

Thunion
02-07-2011, 12:06 AM
Just wanted to say civilizations(at least 4th) and fallout dont have real townscreens (Fallout even have nothing to do with townscreens dont see a point of puting it here...of course its amazing game but still far from rts and townscreens which we disccusing)so no need to compare them here.Homm5(and 6 it seems) got adventure and battle in 3d as does fallout(at some point) and civ.

Dark-Whisperer
02-07-2011, 12:55 AM
When I "zoom out" to show big picture why 3D should be used in all segments of the game including town screens you just play naive. I was just saying that games that used to be 2D now are completely 3D and not without reason. As you said whole post is obvious so my point should be too.

I will quote parts of my post http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



No other technology can transfer motion and effect as smoke, ripples on the water, moving leaves and branches, light, dust, atmospheric effect as lightning, clouds, rain, snow or fog. Results can be impressive, but you already know that.

Do you honestly still think that 2D is as good as 3D but its not used because... no idea why...

I won't explain further all advantages of 3D technology just because you play naive to prove your point.

This goes for town screens as well as rest of the game. Clear enough or should I draw a picture? :P

If every aspect of the game goes from idea to artwork to 3d model why should town screens stay on second step and not continue to the end as rest of the game?

Thunion
02-07-2011, 03:09 AM
Well first of all they should go to 3D only when they will make a good 3D Homm5 Those townscreens were horrible i explained why i think so and i wont do that again.If they dont have time/recources etc to do somthing better they should stay with 2D..I think some of team should try to make a Locked 3D townscreen and frequintly post images on forums of theyr work.And when most of the community will be happy with that then they should implement it to the game.Problem is not in 3D itself but in making it..In 3D its much easier to make a mystake then in 2D.

Dark-Whisperer
02-07-2011, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by Thunion:
If they dont have time/recources etc to do somthing better they should stay with 2D.I think some of team should try to make a Locked 3D townscreen and frequintly post images on forums of theyr work.And when most of the community will be happy with that then they should implement it to the game.

Finally we agree.

Thunion
02-07-2011, 04:28 AM
Finally we agree.
At some point yes...But well you sayed kinda of 3D ALWAYS better then 2D and i say that it depend on how its done,but well thats personal opinion and we can discuss forever on it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Xenofex_086
02-07-2011, 05:52 AM
Originally posted by Dark-Whisperer:
I was just saying that games that used to be 2D now are completely 3D and not without reason. You are just repeating what you said without answering the question - why is 3D better than 2D in terms of aesthetics and what does it have to do with the fact that most of the devs nowadays use 3D? If this is your answer:

No other technology can transfer motion and effect as smoke, ripples on the water, moving leaves and branches, light, dust, atmospheric effect as lightning, clouds, rain, snow or fog ... then it is just wrong. You can see many of these effects even in the notoriously 2D 1999 Heroes III. What else?

Ro.Floro
02-07-2011, 06:13 AM
As you all said, functionality is everything...I agree 100%
I don't care if the town screen is fully 2D or 3D.
I prefer 3D over 2D, even if it doesn't have as much functionality, because I want to see something nice in the game...as I said...I was amazed by the town screens in H5 even if they didn't had functionality.
2D or 3D, players will still buy the game...
CAN THE DEVELOPERS PLEASE POST SOME SCREENSHOTS OF THE TOWN SCREEN.
Hey, do you have the guts to make some spam somewhere on this forum so the developers can see and post some screenshots of the town screen? (you=all those who replied to this post)

Thunion
02-07-2011, 06:19 AM
First of all Who sayed you townscreens are done?

As you all said, functionality is everything...I agree 100%
I don't care if the town screen is fully 2D or 3D.
I prefer 3D over 2D, even if it doesn't have as much functionality
One small qustion:Why are you arguing with yourself?

Dark-Whisperer
02-07-2011, 06:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> No other technology can transfer motion and effect as smoke, ripples on the water, moving leaves and branches, light, dust, atmospheric effect as lightning, clouds, rain, snow or fog ... then it is just wrong. You can see many of these effects even in the notoriously 2D 1999 Heroes III. What else? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I can see on those screens is how some of those effect looked like in 1999.
You must be joking if you think thats the best computer graphic can do in 2011 or that town screen is acceptable to be used in new heroes.
Its shocking that effect as lightning seam identical to you either drawn or animated with 3D effect.
If you honestly think that graphic didn't progress since 1999 I have nothing else to say to you or anybody else that think in the same way.

Ro.Floro
02-07-2011, 10:18 AM
First of all, I wasn't argueing with myself.
Second, I meant I would prefer 3D over 2D, but if it's not possible I will play it anyway because I really like Heroes. H5 especially.

Xenofex_086
02-07-2011, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Dark-Whisperer:
What I can see on those screens is how some of those effect looked like in 1999.
You must be joking if you think thats the best computer graphic can do in 2011 or that town screen is acceptable to be used in new heroes.
Its shocking that effect as lightning seam identical to you either drawn or animated with 3D effect.
If you honestly think that graphic didn't progress since 1999 I have nothing else to say to you or anybody else that think in the same way. Man, read carefully and don't twist the meaning of the other people's posts just to help your case. I said that such effects can be made on 2D as well and you can see many of them even on the ancient by today's Standards Heroes III. Heck, even Heroes II has some. And yes, today they could be drawn far better - something that I'm expecting to see in Heroes VI. Praise these 3D town screens of yours as much as you want but leave the other people judge for themselves, OK?

justthefool
02-14-2011, 11:37 PM
3d all the way ;D

edyc1989
02-16-2011, 09:27 AM
I'm for 3D. I liked the way towns looked in H5, especialy academy.But doesn't matter to me how it comes out, if it's going to be 2D at least hope it looks good.

Alextriad
02-25-2011, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Dark-Whisperer:
Can anyone name me a game made by big developer and publisher with successful franchise name, made recently that is using 2D graphic?
All successful games and franchises switched to 3D even if they didn't need too.

They switched to 3D because they didn't need to? They do these things for a reason you know. When 3D came out it looked new and it was unbelievable that it could be done. Eventually it has turned into an artistic preference, however large companies want 3D to be the artistic preference. So they are like the media they feed to you what they want you to like so they can manipulate. Getting to my point, 3D is now a way to put a strangle hold on small companies that want to make video games. It takes and absurd amount of people and money to make 3D environments. They have people that all their career specialize in just making the hair on 3D models. With small companies stunted, unable to afford this technology, they can continue to be number 1. However, the truth is like I said. This is now just an artistic preference, nothing amazing and profound anymore as it was in 1996-2004 (as much as they try to say it is now pushing 3D TVs). It's better to have competition in the business world. A lot of huge companies were just small companies from the 80s. Blizzard is a damn good example.

The 3D trend is also just shifting because I'm going to use the "come on it's 2011" now... come on it's 2011! Being stuck at just 3D pushing high resolution is old and boring. It's not 2002 anymore. In the Renaissance people pushed to make drawing/sculpting in art as realistic as possible and slowly it changed as society was slowly changing... By early 90s Picasso was what people raved about, (and if you think his stuff is realistic... ... moving on). The trends and technology in the world have progressed so dramatically in the recent century than in the past several hundred years.

Also back in 1996, 3D took us functionally to new heights, but has leveled out and we know where it works and where it doesn't. I VOTE FOR 2D, and I like both, but functionally the argument is sound. Artistically 3D only topples 2D because that's what the big boys want you to believe and it's what random internet people will say because its the "latest and greatest". However, where ever you go there will be people who love 2D more... 2D or 3D artistically is not arguable. Each can be used to promote different feels. Opinions are opinions. Functionality is logical and provable.

DjiXas
02-25-2011, 10:35 PM
Oh, lets just bring HOMM2 engine, add new story and call it Heroes 6.

Also, make it 256 colors only because that's how older games looked like.

Then make it run on Win 95 only so every fan would be happy.

Happy now?

GoranXII
02-25-2011, 11:36 PM
Oh, lets just bring HOMM2 engine, add new story and call it Heroes 6.
You say that after what they did to H5?

Dark-Whisperer
02-26-2011, 12:17 AM
@Alextriad

If I understood correctly you are saying that big companies manipulated gaming community into thinking that 3D is better when clearly it isn't? That they somehow brainwashed enormous number of people by serving only 3D? So conspiracy theory on large scale mixed with inception brainwashing sounds viable... NOT http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You say things like:

Artistically 3D only topples 2D because that's what the big boys want you to believe and it's what random internet people will say because its the "latest and greatest". or

So they are like the media they feed to you what they want you to like so they can manipulate. Getting to my point, 3D is now a way to put a strangle hold on small companies that want to make video games.
with such confidence without any shred of proof. If you state something like that back it up with evidence.

Also as I mentioned before don't mix computer graphic with painters or sculptors because its not the same. Obvious but I had to repeat, I hope that's clear now.

When you claim that 2D is more functional than 3D you are stating something that isn't always and 100% true. Again!

I don't want to be dragged to level where I have to prove that computer graphic has evolved since 2002 or 1999. And frankly saying stuff like that borders with trolling.

'nuff said.

Niphire
02-26-2011, 10:34 AM
O, cmon people, can't you see? 3D is always strictly better than 2D! Do you know why only Japanese people still are making cartoon movies, while everyone else has moved on to 3D? This is why:

http://img.squakenet.com/screenshot/4d_tennis.jpg
4D Tennis: 3D at its best!

So stop arguing!

*Irony warning*

Dark-Whisperer
02-26-2011, 11:14 AM
This is clearly better http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/126/pongfk.jpg (http://img30.imageshack.us/i/pongfk.jpg/)

Ro.Floro
02-26-2011, 04:41 PM
This argument will stop as soon as we'll see a town screen.
Some of us will be happy, some will be saddened by the developer's decision.
I'm still for 3D, even if the functionality isn't it's strong point.
I just want to see something nice on my screen, cutting edge...not a dulled one(joke http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).
There won't be long until the developers will show us some screens from inside the towns...I'm sure they'll be pretty awesome.
3D with fixed camera is ugly. Let it rotate, spin, free roam....just don't make it fixed.

Alextriad
02-26-2011, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Dark-Whisperer:
@Alextriad

If I understood correctly you are saying that big companies manipulated gaming community into thinking that 3D is better when clearly it isn't? That they somehow brainwashed enormous number of people by serving only 3D? So conspiracy theory on large scale mixed with inception brainwashing sounds viable... NOT http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You say things like:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Artistically 3D only topples 2D because that's what the big boys want you to believe and it's what random internet people will say because its the "latest and greatest". or

So they are like the media they feed to you what they want you to like so they can manipulate. Getting to my point, 3D is now a way to put a strangle hold on small companies that want to make video games.
with such confidence without any shred of proof. If you state something like that back it up with evidence.

Also as I mentioned before don't mix computer graphic with painters or sculptors because its not the same. Obvious but I had to repeat, I hope that's clear now.

When you claim that 2D is more functional than 3D you are stating something that isn't always and 100% true. Again!

I don't want to be dragged to level where I have to prove that computer graphic has evolved since 2002 or 1999. And frankly saying stuff like that borders with trolling.

'nuff said. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If what I said as an argument is trolling, than saying anything about "this is 2011" is trolling. My point was not to parallel the type of art medium that computer graphics is to other art, simply people's preference over time.

If I was not clear before. I will be more clear now.

I read what you said about other art styles.
The connection between other art styles was not the styles but the trends in interest. I am drawing a parallel between how interests change.

Second you don't need proof to know that every big company wants to stay big and keep other companies out of competition. That's common sense. If you want me to prove how much bigger development team sizes have become and how much more funding it requires because of the third dimension I can.

Next, big game companies was not the only force behind why 3D had gotten big. I did mention that 3D had taken us to new heights in functionality.

Finally, when I ended my post with that I vote for 2D being more functional, maybe you forgot what this forum was voting for. I voted for 2D in this game: Heroes of Might and Magic 6. I am sorry for one thing that may have thrown you off. I like 3D and I could even argue for it here. 3D towns could work as functional 3D dynamic towns and static 2D towns. You simply have an option if you want to turn the dynamic camera off although it can turn off after a click too. Then the 3D model would be designed to look good in one fixed camera where people can click on the objects they want. They would need to take further notes though, because it wasn't just the towns in Heroes V having a dynamic 3D environment that made it less functional. Most buildings looked very similar and there were too many scattered in a way that would still make it difficult to use it as a GUI. I am an Electronics Art major and I could go into further detail to my studies, because you want proof, but it's unnecessary. The 3D art could be then designed functionally on a static camera even with the dynamic camera without making a whole new model. 3D art isn't 3D functionality so it could work with both here. If the dev. company has the time and money to create the 2D functionality and making a 3D model with a dynamic camera then I guess they could go for it. However, it doesn't make my experience better so I still vote 2D.

If you want to argue about 2D/3D in general we could over IM without being off topic. Although you might be surprised what good things I can say about 3D as well. I just like to fight for the little guy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In defense to my remark on what I said... No conspiracy on video game business, just typical business. Businesses want to defeat competitors. Companies go out of business because they failed to defeat their competitors. If the big companies (companies with much greater capital) don't use their extra power to make 3D games and rather lower their standards to where smaller companies can compete; they are adding just further risk to losing with more competitors at hand. 3D costs money that small companies cannot afford. I do have some information on this massive cost because of my background but that would skew this even further off course than simply responding to your comment and defending that response. PM me if you want to talk, but I'm done here on this extent unless you want to talk.

Nxss
02-26-2011, 06:22 PM
Wow! I never realized people were so passionate one one or the other! I always thought it was the gameplay that made a difference not if it was 2d or 3d. Hell, I didn't even know people would give a crap about how the towns looked until I came to this forum.

There are five of us in my family that have played the Heroes series since the second one. I have heard some arguments spanning the length of the series, but the 2d/3d town thing has never came up. Every time we talk about HoMM, it is always about what is new and different from the last.

We like every version of Heroes for what they are or try to bring to the series. Yes, even four. Not sure why people hate that one. I, we, really do not give a crap about the 2d/3d thing. What we do care about? When it is released and how long it is going to take for new maps to come out.

The whole 2d/3d thing does not matter! It is always the gameplay. Hence the term game! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Alextriad
02-26-2011, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by Nxss:
Wow! I never realized people were so passionate one one or the other! I always thought it was the gameplay that made a difference not if it was 2d or 3d. Hell, I didn't even know people would give a crap about how the towns looked until I came to this forum.

There are five of us in my family that have played the Heroes series since the second one. I have heard some arguments spanning the length of the series, but the 2d/3d town thing has never came up. Every time we talk about HoMM, it is always about what is new and different from the last.

We like every version of Heroes for what they are or try to bring to the series. Yes, even four. Not sure why people hate that one. I, we, really do not give a crap about the 2d/3d thing. What we do care about? When it is released and how long it is going to take for new maps to come out.

The whole 2d/3d thing does not matter! It is always the gameplay. Hence the term game! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

lol you are right it isn't the most important thing, but I think it adds some immersion too not just functionality. Honestly, it was said on this thread somewhere that music was the most important thing, but that was a different topic. I just like the immersion of clicking on the buildings rather than using the UI. That's really what I'm fighting for. So optional static 2D functionality that could also be dynamic where you could move the camera or following the camera path animation would probably suite the most people. I also just know 3D art is a lot of extra work and I'd rather the developers spend time on the bulk of the game. 2D art works just fine for me (since 2D art is easier and quicker to produce).

Thunion
02-27-2011, 05:52 AM
Wow! I never realized people were so passionate one one or the other!
Game is not out yet,and for now i guess 2D/3D is worth of greater disccusions that anything else they introduced...

Ro.Floro
03-07-2011, 07:47 AM
I guess this is it...

2D town screens there will be...

http://might-and-magic.ubi.com...buildings/index.aspx (http://might-and-magic.ubi.com/heroes-6/en-GB/game/buildings/index.aspx)

See for yourselves!
If someone doesn't agree, he has to prove that I'm wrong.

wdcryer
03-07-2011, 09:15 AM
Are you referring to the hand-drawn quality of the pictures? That could be concept art. After all, the mines aren't gonna be in towns, and they don't look like that in-game. But I do believe it has confirmed that the town screens will be fixed-camera.

Ro.Floro
03-07-2011, 09:23 AM
they look pretty much like the real thing...I don't think the artwork is far from the real in-game graphics...I think I'm right...but I can be wrong...but I don't think so. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
03-08-2011, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Ro.Floro:
I guess this is it...

2D town screens there will be...

http://might-and-magic.ubi.com...buildings/index.aspx (http://might-and-magic.ubi.com/heroes-6/en-GB/game/buildings/index.aspx)

See for yourselves!
If someone doesn't agree, he has to prove that I'm wrong.

Just so you know, nearly everything on that page is for ADVENTURE MAP buildings. Including the dwellings. The only things on that page that are for the town-screen are the unique buildings. But as you can plainly see, those are only concept arts because they're still designing the actual town screens. As for 2d vs 3d...it sounds to me like it'll be a combination of the two. But I, like everyone else, haven't seen them yet...so it's just guessing at this point.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
03-08-2011, 04:42 PM
http://static9.cdn.ubi.com/en-GB/images/UNIQUE%20BUILDINGS%20-%20Stronghold%20Hall%20Of%20Raiderstcm2113833.jpg

And for those Might and Magic historians...name for me the ancient relics strewn about the Stronghold's Hall of Raiders? :O)

Avonu_de_Odihs
03-09-2011, 01:22 AM
You should leave your lamp more often. (http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=308963#308963)

Thunion
03-09-2011, 02:34 AM
And for those Might and Magic historians...name for me the ancient relics strewn about the Stronghold's Hall of Raiders? :O)
i know only 2 my guess is that blade is angels(or archangels dont remember correctly) blade and shield with lion(or griffin) is part of angels blade my guess is that was called Lions(or griffins ;D) Shield ;p but dont remember name to..It was so much time ago when i collected that shield :O
Edit:Found real names in H3 map editor.Blade is called angelic alliance while shield is called Lions Shield of Courage so i was close http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.However after i saw ingame picture i am no more sure about is it really the shield i am thinking off..I am 95% sure about Angelic alliance trough.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
03-09-2011, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by Avonu_de_Odihs:
You should leave your lamp more often. (http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=308963#308963)

LOL. Well played Avonu. :O) It's been a busy week for me, so I'm playing catch-up.

Ladlo
03-19-2011, 01:33 PM
The 3d town screens added so much to the game. You could look around your entire castle and see all there was to see from every angle! it made me a lot more proud of what i had built in the game. It think that it is a big mistake to take that away.

Dark-Whisperer
03-28-2011, 03:39 AM
Any news about infamous windows?

najmul88
03-30-2011, 08:11 AM
Hey guys, just caught up on this debate had to share my 2 cents http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

First of all Full 3d town screen wth moving camera angles etc with lighting and atmospheric elements will be really hard.

Heroes 5 was pretty awesome, the concepts of the town were really awesome, which is why they stood out as much as they did. Graphically though, it didnt make such a big difference, some of the buildings that were built were small and unnoticable, especially as the camera turns. Also there wasnt as much lighting and other after effects used anyway, but well get to that later.

If you want awesome looking 3d town screens, it will be great oy i done properly, but that will require a HUGE workload to make it look up to par. Which is probably why japanese rpg developers have scrapped cities in their games eg. Final Fantasy.

With high definition, and awesome graphics and computer power, its really hard to make something look totally awesome 3d wise, especially if its a town screen which doesnt add anything to gameplay, infact may obstruct it due to lag loading times etc.
To make a full 3d town look awesome, you need to have many people working on it, may take months of rendering and detailin o get things right, you wold have to wrk on textures, lighting, shadow, particle effcts, and other physics etc etc. To make a town look awesome, al of these checks would have to be ticked.

Imagine Starcraft 2 with all the 3d graphic featured turned on, looks awesome..but youll need a stronger computer tor un it, otherwise you will have to scale the shaders etc down, and then it looks really crap.

Now yes 3d is awesomeif done right, but is it worth risking months on a feature that is unaffective to gameplay, or may reduce it? Because with the current grade of awesome monitors, and high res, which are cheap and available to most, it has to be done to a ridiculous level of standard to achieve that.

This option has got to go because if you look at 3d fixed camera towns, or 2.5D it is more much viable, it is much more easier to have pre rendered graphics, and apply the effects on top way better. The details from this angle can b done to a high degree, and can be worked on as if it was a picture or paintingor scene that loops over, think dragons, monsters lurking and moving in shadows, weather elements, perspective to make the buildings look ominous from tat partcular angle, imo it would be way more awesome than 3d full camera view, because artist can work and creat an orgasmic eye fest from that paticular view and not worry how it would look from other angles.

Also the functionality would be improved aswell, no need of a UI, you can click on he buildings too.

Think Mortal Kombat (new one), street fighter 4, Starcraft 2, Diablo 3, most games are going with fixed camera angle, because it works the best. And the amount of depth and detail you can bring to this view would be perfectly suited to the gameplay. (ok i kno 3d towns are not gameplay, but still i think Homm6 really udnerstanding the polishing and gameplay mechanics better than before)
Even on diablo 3 they had a 3d character model, for the inventory armour selection screen, but they decided to change it to 2D.

I think what homm6 will have is an awesome blend of both 3d and 2d, and that is how it should be, bring in all the artistic elements where they excel and shine in, instead of going with the 'trendy' approach because that is what everyone else does.

As for my opinion, i actaully prefer 2D but thats cause im a freelancer, and im trying to break into concept art and stuff too ^^

I believe that an awesome 2D hd painted picture would look awesome considering the skill of the artist in mind. Ive seen 9999999999999 concept art, and enviros, and believe me when i say some things can only be done via painting. Given that, like those websites eg Wow Cataclysm etc, you can apply lighting and other elements over the picture to make it even more immersive. Also its things like this that would make the game seem nostalgic later on, imo anyway.
Ive played Wow for like 2 years (quit now thankfully xD) where the gaming depth etc is probably unmatched, yet the time when i went back to it after long breaks, there was never any sense of nostalgia, idk maybe just me.

But when it comes to other games, like older rpgs, older pc games, people always come back to em because they have more heart n soul in em then some recent ones.

But probably all in all, i think fixed camera pre rendered 3d - 2.5D is the best bet, best of both worlds, and if done right will definitely shock n awe both sides of the debate. As well as keep functionality and keeping to modern requirements going.

Thing with homm 3 is that its been doen a long time ago, no hi def, the effect on t were purely 2d animations reather then seperate after effects. Imagine seeing a new 2d in hi def with all the extras, in terms of HOMM it will definitely be something very new and breathtaking.

I bet you any money, none of you could remember exactly how each and every dwelling looked per faction in homm5,ive played homm 5 for years, still have it installed but cant remember. Though homm3 and 3 i can easily remember each one. The fact that each dwelling was designed to have a different look and silhouette, having to click on them to recruit creatures, made it even more immersive and noticable. That is a STRONG designing feature.

With homm5 there were problem, the castle was degigned quite awesomely, but some dwelling were like a hole in the floor, or a small insignifact house played to scale proportionately perfectly with the rest of the town made it kinda hard to distinguish. The fact that you would need 5 minutes to look around in it, to find and notice what you have built is a design flaw for a game like homm where you need functionality to make it easily playable. And that shouldnt be done by just throwing in UIs, things should work together seamlesly, instead of having filler in buttons doing the job.

Lol long post sorry xD im currently playing through homm 3 again, i raped through homm 2 a week earlier in preparation haha http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Cant wait!

alficon
03-30-2011, 11:25 AM
[quote]I bet you any money, none of you could remember exactly how each and every dwelling looked per faction in homm5,ive played homm 5 for years, still have it installed but cant remember. Though homm3 and 3 i can easily remember each one. The fact that each dwelling was designed to have a different look and silhouette, having to click on them to recruit creatures, made it even more immersive and noticable. That is a STRONG designing feature.


QFT. And that's why i would like 2D town screens. Ofc i might be biased by the H5 town screens which had 0 functionality and buildings with little or no "personality" or "feel" to them. There might be a way to make 3D towns work awesomely. I just have the H5 towns in mind. Definately i don't want H6 towns to be like that.

Dark-Whisperer
03-30-2011, 01:14 PM
OK this thread officially has no point anymore, because there will be NO town screens at all. It doesn't matter if we prefer 2D or 3D we will get town windows, smaller non interactive version of screens. Shame.

alficon
03-30-2011, 02:52 PM
there will be NO town screens at all

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Source?

This would be very disappointing for me... I was always under the impression that the town window was a placeholder for so that the demo would work, until the real town screen was finalized.

Dark-Whisperer
03-30-2011, 04:03 PM
Check out this thread:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...1060878/m/3921096319 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5861060878/m/3921096319)
and then this:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...1060878/m/1221041819 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5861060878/m/1221041819)