PDA

View Full Version : What was so great about the He219?



XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 01:27 PM
Sure it had a couple of spectacular successful nights, but what else.



http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/taylor-greycap2.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 01:27 PM
Sure it had a couple of spectacular successful nights, but what else.



http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/taylor-greycap2.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 01:30 PM
Any reason you posted this twice?

I'd never join a club that would have ME as a member!!.

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 01:31 PM
ELEM wrote:
- Any reason you posted this twice?
-
- I'd never join a club that would have ME as a
- member!!.

Yup, was on pg 2 and did not relize it - did not show./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Thought a typical Ubi SNAFU./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/taylor-greycap2.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 01:31 PM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif




-----------------------------------

"I don't know what weapons World War 3 will be fought with, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
-A. Einstein
"And any leftover assault weapons" -Fallout Fan


I am an Arado whiner. And proud of it.

http://www.vectorsite.net/avar234.html
Not my site. But a good place to start if you want to join the Arado-whining. The Arado needs *you* today!

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 01:38 PM
Maybe the ejectionseat?...maybe the ability not only to fly with only one engine but also to start with only one?...maybe the position of the weapons without any blinding while shooting in the night?... maybe the number of the weapons and the power of them? ...maybe the canopy with the real good visibilty for the crew? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
I./Gruppe

http://www.jg53-pikas.de/
http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/Ani_pikasbanner_langsam.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 01:48 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Sure it had a couple of spectacular successful
- nights, but what else.

It was claimed to have outstanding performances (on paper), but they were hindered by the weight of the plane itself and of its many heavy guns and equipments (like aerials and radar).
Probably, if it had been used just like an heavy fighter or a JABO it would have been better.
Finally, it was produced in a (relative) limited number to achieve a real impact on the air war.

<center>

http://www.goblins.it/immagini/Logo/tdglogo.gif </p>

fluke39
09-02-2003, 01:51 PM
high speed for a twin (416 mph for A-7)
heavy armament eg A-2/R1:

2 x MG 151/20 wing roots
up tp 4 x MG 151/20 in belly tray
2 x MK108 in schrage musik installation

or A-7 /R1

2 x MK108 in wing roots
2 x MK108 and 2 x MG 151/20 in belly tray
2 x MK108 in schrage musik installation

ejector seats, turbo charged engine
highly manovaurable
(excuse spelling)
claimed 20 bombers in first 6 sorties 6 of which were the previously almost untouchable mosquitos ( i guess these encompass the two nights you referred to though )

Seemed pretty good to me /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 02:02 PM
fluke39 wrote:
- high speed for a twin (416 mph for A-7)
- heavy armament eg A-2/R1:
-

-
- ejector seats, turbo charged engine
-

416mph(670kph) was for an a/c that had been striped - no radar antenna, guns removed(not sure how many), no exhaust shrouds,.... Hard to find an enemy a/c at night without antenna for the radar.

Ejection seats were not dependable.

"turbo charged' engines???




http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/taylor-greycap2.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

fluke39
09-02-2003, 02:03 PM
ooooooo i see /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

i guess this thread has been born from the whats so good about the B26 marauder thread.

it's was OK but there were better planes - don't see particulary why that thread was started anyway /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

i'd rather bump this one if any /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 04:55 PM
The bird looks mean. In my opinion, there are only few military aircraft that look like real war machines: Fw-190A, Sukhoi Su-27 and Heinkel He-219. The idea is to make your enemy s*it his pants once he sees you. For example, I would really hate to see MiG-15 in my six. It looks really scary.

In comparison, Spitfire looks like a nice racing airplane, beautiful? - Yes. Nasty looking? - No. Get the point?

Kursula

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 05:18 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- fluke39 wrote:
-- high speed for a twin (416 mph for A-7)
-- heavy armament eg A-2/R1:
--
-
--
-- ejector seats, turbo charged engine
--
-
- 416mph(670kph) was for an a/c that had been striped
- - no radar antenna, guns removed(not sure how many),
- no exhaust shrouds,.... Hard to find an enemy a/c at
- night without antenna for the radar.
-
- Ejection seats were not dependable.
-
- "turbo charged' engines???
-

So basically, you're not really looking for answers to the question you posed, rather you're just looking for people to argue with you about why you already think the He219 was NOT great. Some might call that trolling, but I just call that being a punk-*** biatch. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

Message Edited on 09/02/0304:27PM by A.K.Davis

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 05:23 PM
Well mods, shouldn't we ban this troll?


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 05:32 PM
Maybe because it was fast, very heavily armed, long ranged and enduranced, first serial a/c to have ejection seat, first specially designed nightfighter, or maybe because most authors agree it was the finest nightfighter that saw service in meaningful numbers during WW2 ?

Nice troll thread, BTW.

http://vo101isegrim.piranho.com/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 07:12 PM
What's the matter Davis, don't want the misconceptions of the He219 brought out?

Are you like Issy and Huckie that believe that the Germans built absolutely perfect a/c without any faults./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif If only they could keep their posts civil.


Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
-
- Maybe because it was fast, very heavily armed, long
- ranged and enduranced, first serial a/c to have
- ejection seat, first specially designed
- nightfighter, or maybe because most authors agree it
- was the finest nightfighter that saw service in
- meaningful numbers during WW2 ?
-
-

Yes had good guns, depending on which model - some better than others -, good cockpit visibility./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


The work on the prototype He 219 began in Feb. 1942 and did not fly until Nov 6 1942. The P-61 protoytpes were being constructed in the summer of 1941 and flying on 26 May 1942.

One of the Mosquito prototypes was to be a night fighter and that was in 1941. (Spec F.18/40) Operational debut April 3 1942 to intercept a "Baedecker" raid.


The He219 had, at economical cruising, range simular to the Mosquito NF30's range. The max. speed of the A-5 was ~65 > 45kph slower (NF 30 407mph(650kph) - taken from Heinkel documents. And before Issy does his usual, the NF 30 was not without its own problems - the exhaust shrouds caused problems. The A-7 could have a higher ceiling than the NF30(36,000ft/10.9km)) but that depends on where the He data comes from.(9000 > 12.7km) The A-5, with the DB603E engine, was slightly slower than the P-61A but faster with another DB603 engine (can't make out the lettre). The NF30 had a better rate of climb than the A-5.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/taylor-greycap2.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 07:15 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- What's the matter Davis, don't want the
- misconceptions of the He219 brought out?

So that WAS the original intent of this thread...

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 07:33 PM
A. K. Davis
i agree with you .
maybe he (milo )is not looking for an answer, but for some entertainment/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
good entertainer are rare

http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

Message Edited on 09/02/0306:34PM by Boandlgramer

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 08:00 PM
Why is top speed so important? Did the mosquitos run to germany and back at top speed? I seriously doubt it.

The goal of the 219 is to find the bombers, sneak on them and kill them; I'm sure if he spots a Mossie or whatever else at cruise speed he can catch up and kill it.

And also it was supposed to destroy all the other (and slower) bombers like lancaster, hallifax or whatever. So in this regard more firepower vs speed is a good trade.

But maybe you're right, maybe the 219 sucks because it's not the fastest plane.

Nic

http://www.randomhouse.com/kids/art/authorphoto/cookie.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 08:06 PM
I don't know if this actually true, but I remember reading it several times:

The He-219 was so beloved by its crew that, despite Hitler's orders, production was started up several times just to serve demand. And some 5 additional were cobbled up from spares even after production definitively ended.

Like I said, I dunno if the above is true. But if it was, it speaks well of the design.



<img src=http://www.johnsonsmith.com/images/p1039.jpg>

Eeeeeeeeeee.......

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 08:13 PM
Oh man.. now you made be drool this bird /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif It sure looks pretty:

http://www.brooksart.com/Owls.jpg</a>

____________________________________



Official Sig:



<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/vipez/shots/Vipez4.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 08:24 PM
nicolas10 wrote:
- Why is top speed so important? Did the mosquitos run
- to germany and back at top speed? I seriously doubt
- it.
-

Next time you have someone closing on your 6 and wishing for more speed, ask why top speed is important./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

- The goal of the 219 is to find the bombers, sneak on
- them and kill them; I'm sure if he spots a Mossie or
- whatever else at cruise speed he can catch up and
- kill it.
-

No doubt/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif , but the reverse is also true for the NF Mosquitos hunting German NFs which did not fly at full throttle all the time./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


- And also it was supposed to destroy all the other
- (and slower) bombers like lancaster, halifax or
- whatever. So in this regard more firepower vs speed
- is a good trade.
-

So true./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif There was a special anti-Mosquito version of the He219 that had some success.

- But maybe you're right, maybe the 219 sucks because
- it's not the fastest plane.
-
-

Who said it sucks? You really should try to improve your English comprehesion.

---------

Yes Icarus999 that is true.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/taylor-greycap2.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

Message Edited on 09/02/0303:25PM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 09:20 PM
The He219 was a plane with a performance not too
dissimilar from either the Mosquito or P-61. It was
a little slower, but on the other hand, it packed
more offensive firepower.

It did suffer from being underpowered compared to
what was ultimately hoped for it, but I think part
of that was the fact that development was not all it
could have been, due the political problems at the
RLM. Granted, lots of different versions were trialled
at various points (high altitude, 3 seaters, schnell
bombers etc) but it never really got the backing.

On the other hand the Mosquito got the backing it
needed to get improved, with good improvements in
engine power.

I suppose the true comparasion would be between the
He219 and some other sidelined project that started
out looking promising but died on the vine due to
lack of support. After all, the whole project was killed
off 2 years after the first flight, which would have
been equivalent to the P-61 being canned in May 1944,
which is the month it entered service. In other words,
the P-61 pre-service development was longer than the
entire life cycle of the He219 from first flight
to end of project. The He219 might have been rather
better if it had had the luxury of such relatively
extended pre-service development.

So basically in the Mosquite NFs, P-61, and He219
we have 3 planes with moderately similar performance,
armed with 4 or more 20mm cannon, mounted low to
avoid muzzle flash blinding, and with two engines.
Fairly similar overall.

(Edit - I'll add some performance figures for
versions - P61A&B, He219, Mosquito NF XIX, NF30
Max speeds are, respectively, 366, 365, 378, 416mph. All
very similar up until the NF30 which was introduced in
the second half of 1944 and represents the point that the
219 was canned. The P61C was faster again, but it
was post VE day).







Message Edited on 09/02/0308:31PM by AaronGT

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 09:41 PM
Milomorai, why did you start this thread if all you wanted to do is attack people who state the ups of the He-219? What's the matter? Can't hear anything positive about other country's plane's and nothing negative about US planes?

<center>
---------------------------------------
Fokker G.I
http://www.defensie.nl:30280/home/pictures/7370.jpg
http://www.uvika.dn.ua/av/PLANE/HOLLAND/FOKKER_G-1/Fokker_G-1b_03a-n.jpg
</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 09:52 PM
You have a English reading comprehension problem as well?

I said nice things about the He219 and never said it sucked as Nicolas tried to say I did./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Or is pointing out errors an attack?

Dutch a/c were crap though./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Red_Storm wrote:
'snip, snip'

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/taylor-greycap2.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 10:12 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Sure it had a couple of spectacular successful
- nights, but what else.


Look at it Milo./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Breathtaking lines, the front/cockpit section looks like the head of a snake, sleek fuselage, twin rudder, strong undercarriage. Maybe one of the most perfect shapes of WWII designs.

http://www.geocities.co.jp/MotorCity-Race/3895/he219a73.jpg




"Kimura, tu as une tªte carrée comme un sale boche!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif



Message Edited on 09/02/03 10:13PM by KIMURA

Message Edited on 09/03/0308:51AM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 10:26 PM
Tell me KIMURA, if I say the He219 is crap (and you imply I say ugly), why I have a 1/48 plastic model He219 waiting to be built?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Here is the box cover
http://www.hobbiesr.com/images/tam.jpj/TAM-AIR.JPG/61057.jpg


There is also a Hs129 and a Ta154 waiting. Not exactly spectacular a/c either.

I have no Spits, P-51s or P-47s. Why is that if I love Allied a/c so much?

Would like a Tempest though.

Someday I will do a Spitfire XVI because a friend's father flew one.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/taylor-greycap2.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 10:31 PM
Milo, I got 2 of those Tamiya goodies and 2 Aires detail sets./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BTW I didn't said with one word the bird is ugly - it's perfect./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


http://www.rlm.at/galerie/03/fdarg_04.jpg




"Kimura, tu as une tªte carrée comme un sale boche!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif



Message Edited on 09/03/0308:51AM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 11:17 PM
Ha ha! kimura, you know Takahashi's work too! I love his stuff, even if the rivets are a little overdone:

http://www.geocities.co.jp/MotorCity-Race/3895/bf109g-6grislawski2.jpg


Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/corsairs.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 02:22 AM
Kimura,

Agreed on that, it is a real beauty.

However, my personal preference for looks for twins would go to the Junkers Ju 188D-1 or the Ju 188A-2/A-3, with the He 219 close second & then Me 410B.

Do 217P

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 02:38 AM
MiloMorai wrote:

- 416mph(670kph) was for an a/c that had been striped
- - no radar antenna, guns removed(not sure how many),
- no exhaust shrouds

Are you sure it was stripped?

My source says the following:

"The advent of the Mosquito fighter escort to RAF bombers resulted in the introduction of the He-219A-6 variant based on the A-2/R2. This was a specially stripped variant powered by two 1,980 hp DB 603L engines and with armament reduced to four MD 151/20 cannon, and it had a maximum speed of 650 km/h (404 mph) and and inital climb rate of 550 m/min (1,805 ft/min)"

or perhaps the following

"Fastest of all A series aircraft was the He-219A-7/R6 which was experimentally fitted with two 2,500 Jumo 222A/B engines and achieved a maximum speed of 700 km/h (435 mph)."


Same source lists the production He-219A-7/R1 as having a maximum speed of 670 km/h (416 mph). The A-7 was armed with eight cannon, two Mk 108s in the wing roots, two Mk 103s and two MG 151/20 in the ventral tray, and two Mk 108s in a Schrage Musik installation aft of the cockpit.

Source: Putnam's "German Aircraft Of The Second World War"





Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/corsairs.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 05:01 AM
On the brochure for the He219, the performance was impressive. But in actuality, a He219A-5, only had a top speed of 364mph and wing loading of 70lb/sq.ft. Wasn't as good as the existing Ju88G-6 with 389mph and 49lb/sq.ft. Consequently, its further development and mass production wasn't really justified at that in Germany.

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 06:05 AM
Excellent Pictures, guys. thx

http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 06:52 AM
SkyChimp wrote:
-
-
- Are you sure it was stripped?
-
-

Butch once gave a breakdown of what was removed to reach the 670kph speed.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/taylor-greycap2.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 07:16 AM
Maj_Kursula wrote:
- The bird looks mean. In my opinion, there are only
- few military aircraft that look like real war
- machines: Fw-190A, Sukhoi Su-27 and Heinkel He-219.
- The idea is to make your enemy s*it his pants once
- he sees you. For example, I would really hate to see
- MiG-15 in my six. It looks really scary.
-
- In comparison, Spitfire looks like a nice racing
- airplane, beautiful? - Yes. Nasty looking? - No. Get
- the point?
-
- Kursula
-
-

Absolutely brilliant point, considering we're talking about a nightfighter here. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 08:55 AM
SkyChimp wrote:
- Ha ha! kimura, you know Takahashi's work too! I
- love his stuff, even if the rivets are a little
- overdone:

Little overdone, you're right. But I like that one the best

http://www.geocities.co.jp/MotorCity-Race/3895/g6y5jg274.jpg




"Kimura, tu as une tªte carrée comme un sale boche!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 10:02 AM
Kimura - that's a beautiful model of an He219. Did you
build that?

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 10:04 AM
No, I didn't. I tooksome pics of my model some days ago and will post them in a few days. Surely my standard is not that high - in best close to./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



"Kimura, tu as une tªte carrée comme un sale boche!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 07:36 PM
Insane pics of both the 109 and the 219. That is one dedicated modeller. Wonder if he's still married /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kimura where did u get that pic of the 219 in front of the hangar? That was awesome!

S!

<center>

http://www.webforum.nu/member/Fornixx/190.JPG</p>
<center>

CWoS Asshat since 2003</p>