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rnzoli
08-14-2005, 12:39 PM
She was standing at the far end of a small hangar, initially obscured by a huge radial engine from a bomber, placed at the middle of the hangar. Still, she attracts the eyes of the visitors immediately - she is still big, and looks majestic. Her beauty and power is gone now, but when you go near, you can feel the lethal powers once she had. She radiates history and that kind of radiation doesn't come across any pictures.

This wreckage has been taken out from the bottom of a lake last year. Hopefully, the pilot and rear gunner survived, their belts were detached, and no human remains were found.

From the shape of the propeller, we think the engine still developed some power when hitting the water, so it could have been a controlled landing.

http://web.axelero.hu/rnzoli/il2_1.JPG

From this picture, you may see a big hole on the side of the engine. This is thought to be an explosive shell, that brought this plane down.

http://web.axelero.hu/rnzoli/il2_2.JPG

FoolTrottel
08-14-2005, 12:51 PM
Thanks!

Pirschjaeger
08-14-2005, 01:16 PM
There's a couple of these at the Beijing aviation museum. These were survivors of the war but not the hosts. I was amazed at the thickness of the armor plate between the pilot's and the gunner's seats. I don't think there was too much that could penetrate it.

Upon seeing the plate I finally fully understood the flying characteristics. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

danjama
08-14-2005, 01:26 PM
very nice pictures. cheers.

Taylortony
08-14-2005, 02:25 PM
The engine was not developing power when it hit, if it was the prop blades would of bent forward.......... before you ask i am using 30 years experience of collecting crashed aircraft to repair, let me explain, a prop blade (like a glider or aircraft wing that when creating lift bends/flexes upwards) bends forwards with the forces on it, when this hits the ground under power the blade bends in that direction, ie forwards, if it was as this plane windmilling or producing no effective power it hits the ground and bends rearwards..... we use it to initially assess what the aircraft was doing on impact for the inquiry etc and the damage incurred to the engine, as this puts more loading on the crank and the cases..


Cool pics BTW.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif there is one being rebuilt near me for the RAF museum

Covino
08-14-2005, 03:02 PM
Very nice pics, rnzoli. Looks a lot like your sig.

rnzoli
08-14-2005, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Taylortony:
The engine was not developing power when it hit, if it was the prop blades would of bent forward [...]
Oh, thanks a million, you are right. The prop was only windmilling then.

What may have confused me - I have seen some other belly-landing pics where the props were bent backwards, but only the 2 lower ones, not the 3rd one on the top. I guess in that case the engine seized, and the blades did not rotate at all at impact.

Old_Canuck
08-14-2005, 03:59 PM
What a beauty! Thanks for posting.

Taylortony
08-14-2005, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Taylortony:
The engine was not developing power when it hit, if it was the prop blades would of bent forward [...]
Oh, thanks a million, you are right. The prop was only windmilling then.

What may have confused me - I have seen some other belly-landing pics where the props were bent backwards, but only the 2 lower ones, not the 3rd one on the top. I guess in that case the engine seized, and the blades did not rotate at all at impact. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

either that or it came down firm and the weight on them stopped the prop in its tracks so to speak

jurinko
08-14-2005, 04:29 PM
http://www.scitech.sk/~donmartinello/Dukla/Dukla-Images/90.jpg

On IL-10 last week.. the armor is cca 8mm thick.

p1ngu666
08-14-2005, 04:44 PM
cool pics http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
aprently the armour is very tough, heard that the guys at hendon tried to drill it, just blunted the drill http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Slater_51st
08-14-2005, 09:31 PM
SWeet pics! I love pictures of planes awaiting restoration.

Do you know anything about the scheme on the plane? It looks like there's a big white stripe running at an angle from the top of the engine towards the wing root. Very intersting whatever the case.

Come to think of it, that's probably just where the nose was burried in the mud on teh bottom, could be wrong though.

Thanks fer posting it!

S! Slater

corvette93
08-14-2005, 10:46 PM
Nice 98K's. I have a "shooter" from 1942 with a piece of shrapnel in the stock.

rnzoli
08-15-2005, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by Slater_51st:
SWeet pics! I love pictures of planes awaiting restoration.

Do you know anything about the scheme on the plane?

I don't think the plane will be restored. Lack of money, of course, and too much structural damage. However, I don't mind at all. The wreckage has more to tell to us this way, than the tidied-up plane it would become after restoration.

The Soviet archives aren't so open for research as US aircraft, so this plane could not be traced back from the engine number (when did it crash, on what mission, where did it belong to, who was the crew etc. ) But the stripes you mention are most probably caused by the nose-heavy sinking into the mud.

Kuna15
08-15-2005, 08:40 AM
Anyway cool pics of a rusty beast... thanks for sharing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hanglands
12-02-2006, 12:55 PM
Hi,

Ive recently started a couple of campaigns in the Il-2. Its ages since I flew one of these, I'd almost forgotten how great they are. Fantastic load-outs and as tough as hell.

I just realised that the top of the nose has a large air intake, and if you use external views at maximum close-up, you can look down the air intake and see the top of (I think) the oil cooler. Probably not true to life! But does anyone have a cross section of the engine compartment of an IL-2, or a schematic or something?

Secondly, while reading what Wiki has to say about the Il-2 I read that in 'Inside the Soviet Army' by Viktor Suvorov, he says the rear gunner pits were crewed by convicts (enemies of socialism) from airfield penal companies. The rear gunner positions were therefore left uprotected. A convict could clear his name by completing nine missions. They never got the opportunity to do that because if they survived to anywhere near nine, they were moved to mine clearing duties.

I just wondered if anyone has read this book and would know if this information is credible? Ive not heard of the author before.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/logo.jpg (http://www.geocities.com/hanglands/)

rnzoli
12-02-2006, 01:27 PM
just realised that the top of the nose has a large air intake, and if you use external views at maximum close-up, you can look down the air intake and see the top of (I think) the oil cooler. Probably not true to life! But does anyone have a cross section of the engine compartment of an IL-2, or a schematic or something?

I have the "...or something".

http://web.axelero.hu/rnzoli/il2_1.JPG

From the thread: "I have seen a real Il-2 yesterday"
http://forums.<b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">ubi[/b].com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/382...821007643#<b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">3821007643[/b] (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/3821007643?r=3821007643#3821007643)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

A "world's first": fully automatic, dedicated COOP server controller. Features and available servers here (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html).
http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/the_full_difficulty_COOP_server_2.JPG (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html)

joeap
12-02-2006, 01:31 PM
Yup the intake was on top...by the way forget about this Suvarov (Rezun) guy, most serious historians have trashed him and torn his books apart. Russian Battlefield page (http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=208&Itemid=108)

Hanglands
12-03-2006, 04:07 AM
They are great pictures rnzoli. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Where were they taken? Was the intention to restore her to any degree?

Still after a cut-away diagram.....<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/logo.jpg (http://www.geocities.com/hanglands/)

Low_Flyer_MkVb
12-03-2006, 04:52 AM
Don't know if this might help:-

Plans and tech drawing - downloadable
http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw/il2.html

Drawings and lots of profiles (Polish text) - downloadable
http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw/il2triada.html

The above links from this very useful site for drawings and pics
http://www.airwar.ru/other/drawe.html


Manual (in Russian. PDF format)
http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/downloads/te...al/il2pilotnotes.pdf (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/%7Echapman/il2guide/downloads/technical/il2pilotnotes.pdf)

General info
http://www.vectorsite.net/avil2.html

http://break-left.org/air/il-2.html
(Including the intriguing lines "Two squadrons of Shturmoviks attacked a German road column over Austria on May 8, 1945. Before the attack commenced they were joined by four American P-38 Lightnings, making it the only joint Soviet/American air operation during World War II.")


Walkaround piccies (Polish text)
http://www.plastikowe.pl/galerie/lotnictwo/iliuszyn-il-2m3<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/Low_Flyer/Screensignew.jpg

Hanglands
12-03-2006, 05:34 AM
Some fantastic links there Low_Flyer.

Thanks a million. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/logo.jpg (http://www.geocities.com/hanglands/)

MadBadVlad
12-03-2006, 06:54 AM
Cutaway showing the radiator intake and dual coolant radiators......... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/markwalters/Aviation/th_il2resize.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/markwalters/Aviation/il2resize.jpg)

I have never read about the rear gunners being specifically from penal units. Nothing about this is mentioned in the single english definitive volume on the IL-2 (Gordon Y. & Komissarov S. Ilyushin IL-2 and IL-10 Shturmovik, Crowood Press, 2004) or the only english language memoirs of an IL-2 pilot (Emelianenko V.B. Red Star Against the Swastika, Greenhill Books, 2005).

The rear gunner positions had armour plating and were not completely unprotected. The fact that they had an open rear cockpit is more to do with visibility and allowing greater horizontal and vertical movement of the machine gun.

rnzoli
12-03-2006, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by Hanglands:
They are great pictures rnzoli. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Where were they taken? Was the intention to restore her to any degree?

Was pulled out of lake Balaton few years ago, currently in Szolnok, at a military-owned collection of combat aircraft. Total budget for her was sufficient to cover her with a tent at the back of the open-air museum. This at least prevents further deterioration.

More pics including recovery:
http://www.repulomuzeum.hu/ARCHFOTO/IL-2/IL-2.htm

Other aircraft at this collection:
http://www.repulomuzeum.hu/ARCHFOTO/ARCHFOTO.htm<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

A "world's first": fully automatic, dedicated COOP server controller. Features and available servers here (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html).
http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/the_full_difficulty_COOP_server_2.JPG (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html)

jamesdietz
12-03-2006, 10:47 AM
Short version: It does kick butt!
Longer version: I bought the Buttkicker while it was on sale sometime ago ( actually I missed the sale by one day & had to pay full price , but never mind...) It stayed in the box for quite a while because:1.) I was waiting on word on BoB & the new PC I was going to have to buy ( as it turns out that's probably a year away...) 2.) the install instructions were not the clearest in the world.
Well with the soon to be released new add-ons I thought maybe just maybe I should give the install a try.As mentioned the instructions are ...uh....written in a convolutes manner & the picture diagram is a bit small & oh there was was the addition of a "Ground Loop Isolator" to add into the connection cables.The install took less than an hour after I went thru the various variations on the 3-4 different male-female connections & cables,the only good news is that it doesn't require a USB port, because I'm all used up in that area.
After finding out my PC didn't melt with this new additional wiring I tried it out...but nothing happened..I had forgotten to turn the Amplifier box on!I did this & immediately my PC locked up.Rebooted...everything fine. Got into game & miracle of miracle it worked1 Boy did it work ...it felt & sounded as if someone was hammering on the back of my chair with a ball-peen hammer.Several re-readings of instructions , dial adjustments & one further rework of cables & I think I've got the hang of it & it is a real positive addition to this sim.The best submersive experience so far/: starting up & flying the B-25...it really shakes you up esp when used with MSFFB stick & Track IR4 & headphones....literally mind numbing!Jets are great too ...can hardly wait to try with allthe a/c to see differences & of course the newa/c due this month.So high marks for the gizmo...I'd say worth the price,but do try to find one on sale ...
Drawbacks?It vibrates the whole house ( my pc is in the basement ...My wife can feel it go on 2 floors up...apartment dwellers you had better tune it down.No hiding the fact you are playing instead of doing "Honey-do's...." And yes my wife still thinks I'm crazy or should I say crazier...I'm trying to convince her its really good for my lower back!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

" God Help me , I love the smell of Computer wiring smoking in the morning!"
http://members.cox.net/doolittle80/DietzPilotSigBlockCropped.gif http://members.cox.net/fliegeroffizier/StukaPilot2.gif

BillyTheKid_22
12-03-2006, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by jamesdietz:
Short version: It does kick butt!
Longer version: I bought the Buttkicker while it was on sale sometime ago ( actually I missed the sale by one day & had to pay full price , but never mind...) It stayed in the box for quite a while because:1.) I was waiting on word on BoB & the new PC I was going to have to buy ( as it turns out that's probably a year away...) 2.) the install instructions were not the clearest in the world.
Well with the soon to be released new add-ons I thought maybe just maybe I should give the install a try.As mentioned the instructions are ...uh....written in a convolutes manner & the picture diagram is a bit small & oh there was was the addition of a "Ground Loop Isolator" to add into the connection cables.The install took less than an hour after I went thru the various variations on the 3-4 different male-female connections & cables,the only good news is that it doesn't require a USB port, because I'm all used up in that area.
After finding out my PC didn't melt with this new additional wiring I tried it out...but nothing happened..I had forgotten to turn the Amplifier box on!I did this & immediately my PC locked up.Rebooted...everything fine. Got into game & miracle of miracle it worked1 Boy did it work ...it felt & sounded as if someone was hammering on the back of my chair with a ball-peen hammer.Several re-readings of instructions , dial adjustments & one further rework of cables & I think I've got the hang of it & it is a real positive addition to this sim.The best submersive experience so far/: starting up & flying the B-25...it really shakes you up esp when used with MSFFB stick & Track IR4 & headphones....literally mind numbing!Jets are great too ...can hardly wait to try with allthe a/c to see differences & of course the newa/c due this month.So high marks for the gizmo...I'd say worth the price,but do try to find one on sale ...
Drawbacks?It vibrates the whole house ( my pc is in the basement ...My wife can feel it go on 2 floors up...apartment dwellers you had better tune it down.No hiding the fact you are playing instead of doing "Honey-do's...." And yes my wife still thinks I'm crazy or should I say crazier...I'm trying to convince her its really good for my lower back!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif LOL!! Buttkicker gamer, http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Wild crazy!!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://members.cox.net/bkid/pacificfighters/PacificFightersSignature.JPG

.................................................. ..............

"All I got was a bellyful of English Channel."

jamesdietz
12-03-2006, 11:21 AM
Forgot to mention that the rat's nest of wires , cables, connections at my feet , under my desk just grew another layer....sigh... not to mention my chair is attached to said mess by a big hunking cable to the BK applifier http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

" God Help me , I love the smell of Computer wiring smoking in the morning!"
http://members.cox.net/doolittle80/DietzPilotSigBlockCropped.gif http://members.cox.net/fliegeroffizier/StukaPilot2.gif

JG54_Lukas
12-03-2006, 11:37 AM
BTW, there's an interesting note about the Il-2 in the new Black Cross/Red Star Vol 3. In 1942, when the Germans started encountering Il-2s with rear gunners, they would note it in their pilot logs as "Il-2 m.H." ("Il-2 mit Hecksch??tze," translated as "with rear gunner). The "m" mistakenly worked its way into the history books as the Il-2M, when in fact there was no such designation.

BillyTheKid_22
12-03-2006, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by jamesdietz:
Forgot to mention that the rat's nest of wires , cables, connections at my feet , under my desk just grew another layer....sigh... not to mention my chair is attached to said mess by a big hunking cable to the BK applifier http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I know.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I am real deaf!! 50% left and 100% right!! I can't ear!! I can feel body , feet!! !! not worry! ok!! just fun!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://members.cox.net/bkid/pacificfighters/PacificFightersSignature.JPG

.................................................. ..............

"All I got was a bellyful of English Channel."

falling-bird
12-03-2006, 02:24 PM
If you???re looking for more info about flying the Shturmovik, you could do worse than read this-

'Red Star Against the Swastika: The Story of a Soviet Pilot Over the Eastern Front' (available at the moment fron Amazon)

It's the wartime memoirs of Vasily B. Emelianenko, a veteran IL2 pilot. A seriously interesting read, with absolutely no mention of criminals in the back seat. What comes across is that the gunners??? dangerous position was highly respected. Indeed some of the gunners were women and much care was taken of them.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://premium.uploadit.org/adamsepps/ARTSIG2.jpg

Hanglands
12-03-2006, 02:35 PM
Great stuff guys. Thanks for the help.

Thanks to both of you for recommending 'Red Star Against The Swastika', a copy of which is now on its way to me.

Many thanks to Vlad for the diagram, thats exactly what I was after. And it does show the air intake funneling down to the rads at the bottom, as it 'appears' to do in game!

Brilliant info fellas, thanks all.

The photos above of the IL-2 pulled from lake Balaton remind me of a skin somebody made of one that had been 'laying in a swamp for 60 years'. Unfortunately I couldnt find it. Looks very close IIRC.

Regards.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/logo.jpg (http://www.geocities.com/hanglands/)

Esel1964
12-03-2006, 09:46 PM
Will these bolt/attach to basically any 'hardbottom'(office) chair,or do you need one of the chairs designed for gaming-"Playseats" or whatever?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/DMFesel/200px-Bomber.jpg

Lyrics from Naked Raygun's "Rat Patrol".
"What we need to take control,we could use the Rat Patrol.What's that coming over the dune?...
Chasing the halftracks across the sandflats,got a nice pine box,for that desert fox,machine guns blaring,and Arabs staring wondering why,the Westerners are there.It's the same old story,and it'll happen again."

jamesdietz
12-03-2006, 10:02 PM
Until I actually got it out of the box I worried about this too,but have no fear: there is an easy- to- use clamp that fits just about any size central vertical support of an office or drafting chair...takes about 3 minutes.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

" God Help me , I love the smell of Computer wiring smoking in the morning!"
http://members.cox.net/doolittle80/DietzPilotSigBlockCropped.gif http://members.cox.net/fliegeroffizier/StukaPilot2.gif

Esel1964
12-03-2006, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by jamesdietz:
Until I actually got it out of the box I worried about this too,but have no fear: there is an easy- to- use clamp that fits just about any size central vertical support of an office or drafting chair...takes about 3 minutes.

Sounds like it's right up my alley.
Thanks for the info. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/DMFesel/200px-Bomber.jpg

Lyrics from Naked Raygun's "Rat Patrol".
"What we need to take control,we could use the Rat Patrol.What's that coming over the dune?...
Chasing the halftracks across the sandflats,got a nice pine box,for that desert fox,machine guns blaring,and Arabs staring wondering why,the Westerners are there.It's the same old story,and it'll happen again."

BillyTheKid_22
12-03-2006, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by Esel1964:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jamesdietz:
Until I actually got it out of the box I worried about this too,but have no fear: there is an easy- to- use clamp that fits just about any size central vertical support of an office or drafting chair...takes about 3 minutes.

Sounds like it's right up my alley.
Thanks for the info. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Cool!!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://members.cox.net/bkid/pacificfighters/PacificFightersSignature.JPG

.................................................. ..............

"All I got was a bellyful of English Channel."

pielkop
12-04-2006, 01:16 AM
Well well well i learnt something very interesting because of this post and that is that the Smithsonian has a IL-2m3 i have not seen it on display at iether the old location or the new one so i suppose it is at the garber ficility along with the horten and the B-17 the swoose .hopefully they will be on display soon at the udvar-hazy location .Something interesting i read about the il-2's a while back and that is that in a pinch two extra people could be carried by putting them in the wheel wells ,with the landing gear staying in the down postion ofcourse

zbw_109
12-04-2006, 03:09 AM
Originally posted by Hanglands:
Great stuff guys. Thanks for the help.

Thanks to both of you for recommending 'Red Star Against The Swastika', a copy of which is now on its way to me.

Many thanks to Vlad for the diagram, thats exactly what I was after. And it does show the air intake funneling down to the rads at the bottom, as it 'appears' to do in game!

Brilliant info fellas, thanks all.

The photos above of the IL-2 pulled from lake Balaton remind me of a skin somebody made of one that had been 'laying in a swamp for 60 years'. Unfortunately I couldnt find it. Looks very close IIRC.

Regards.

Eat this link (http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=1443)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Deutsche Zentralbibliothek fur Wirtschaftswissenschaften

SaQSoN
12-04-2006, 06:36 AM
Originally posted by Hanglands:
Hi,

Secondly, while reading what Wiki has to say about the Il-2 I read that in 'Inside the Soviet Army' by Viktor Suvorov, he says the rear gunner pits were crewed by convicts (enemies of socialism) from airfield penal companies. The rear gunner positions were therefore left uprotected. A convict could clear his name by completing nine missions. They never got the opportunity to do that because if they survived to anywhere near nine, they were moved to mine clearing duties.

I just wondered if anyone has read this book and would know if this information is credible? Ive not heard of the author before.

Any of the books, written by this "Suvorov" (real name Viktor Resun - a defected KGB agent) isn't credible. All his writings are clever bull****, based on 1% of trueth, served in completely wrong context and mixed with 99% of lies.

Most of the IL-2 rear gunners (as well, as gunners on other multi-crew planes), where usual conscripts, selected by medical commision as suitable for flight crews and trained in special air-gunner's schools.
Sometimes, an airfield ground crews, or even regiment stuff officers would take a few sorties as gunners to record some air hours, which was needed to get a decoration, career growth, or additional payment. Sometimes, ground crews would do that just out of "fun", or interest. In either case, before doing that, this people should have been certified as gunners (which could be done right within the regiment, after passing a brief training and respective exam).

However, there really was a form of punishment for a flight crews (and only flight crews), usually officers, who, for certain crimes were discharged into privates and sent to serve their centence as IL-2 gunners. After certain ammount of combat sorties, they were restored in their rank, given back their decorations and sent back to their initial units. But such things were relatively rare, since this would be a big luck for such convict. Because this panishment was equaled to 10 years in GULAG, which was much worse for such person.

As for the IL-2 pilot/gunner death rate. According to the most IL-2 crews memories, in most cases both crewmen would die, because the primary cause of IL-2 losses was an AA fire. Destroyed by an AA shell, the plane would go down, usually killing both crewmen.
And in the case, when enemy fighter attacks and kills the gunner, it usually will go back and destroy the defenceless plane, killing the pilot either.

Offcourse, due to weaker gunners defence, their losses were slightly bigger, then pilot losses, but not too much, actually. May be, a few percents, but definitely, not times...

PS The most funny (and rediculous) part is about the "enemies of socialism". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Any known "enemy of socialism" wouldn't be let even close to the frontlines, not even speaking of aviation, because according to the NKVD mindset, he would immidiately defect (in the best case), or cause a diversion (in the worst case), which, BTW, wasn't far from the real things. Thus, all the "enemies of socialism" were kept far, far away from the front lines and military back then...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Best regards,


SaQSoN (Vladimir Kochmarsky)

major_setback
12-04-2006, 08:01 AM
Unfortunately I live in a flat (apartment). Maybe I could attatch it to my headphones http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif. Anyone tried this?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y129/major-setback/Signaurepic004BESTframe014small.jpg
<span class="ev_code_PINK">My Aim is True.</span>

alert_1
12-04-2006, 10:03 AM
For ONE plit ther was SEVEN rear gunners lost. For criminla acts (as any form of disent against Stalin was quick dead squad final solution), rear gunner position was only for minor misdemanor (sp?), because there was some chance to survive...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

I'm dislectic, so please bear with me...

SaQSoN
12-04-2006, 10:41 AM
For ONE pilot there were SEVEN rear gunners lost.

Who told you that? Mr. Rezun?

The real rate (according to regimental losses reports) was between 1:1,1 and 1:1,03 towards gunner losses.

From other hand, the job of an average sturmovik crew (no matter, pilot or gunner) was the MOST dangerous among all aviation specialities of that time in the VVS. Besides, sturmovik units were most numerous aviation units after the fighter units. That is why they time from time were used as a penal "facilities" for the flight crews.

But the very thought, that some convicted green soldier, who never saw a plane up close, whould be put into gunner's cockpit, is completely absurd! Because to just fire a gun, one must have at least basic training, and to use it with at least 10% efficiency and maintain it for some period of time, one must undergo quite a serious training.
Why wouldn't mr.Rezun suggest, that "enemies of the socialism" were hanged under the IL-2 fuselage for penal purposes? It would be as efficient (from both punishment and rear defence points of view) as putting them into the cockpit, but in this case, they, at least, wouldn't be able to brake anything. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Best regards,


SaQSoN (Vladimir Kochmarsky)

WWSensei
12-04-2006, 10:51 AM
I got one as well recently for $40 (after rebate) from eDimensional. Fortunetly, I didn't need over half the cables that came with it as I have a straightforward headphone setup and not 5.1 etc. Just a Y-Splitter to connect to the Amp and my headphones and I was good to go in about 20 mins.

Once you get the volume set right (I also turned on the high and lo end cutoffs) it really does add a bit extra to the immersion. I've only flown the P-38 with it so far but it is something to "feel" the engines starting up and then smoothing out as you accelerate.

Not the same level of added immersion that trackIR offers but it does add to the game.

OH! and the first time a flak burst goes off near your aircraft you do almost literally "jump" out of your chair.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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"A lady came up to me on the street, pointed to my leather flight jacket and said, "Don't you know a cow was murdered for that jacket?" I replied menacingly, "I didn't know I left witnesses. Now, I'll have to kill you too."