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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 12:44 AM
I thought you might like the results of some tests fot patch 07. These are not for accurate climb rates, but just to compare some of the planes to each other. I started at 1000m, and climbed at 270 km/h for two minutes. I wrote down the altitude at one and two minutes. Then I dove down to see at what speed they broke apart. All the planes overheated during the climb, except the La5FN/La7. Here's the results.

................1 minute.......2 min........broke apart

Yak3............2750m.........4100m.........740 km/h
Yak9U...........2800m.........4050m.........780 km/h
La5FN...........2700m.........3800m.........680 km/h
La7.............2850m.........4000m.........680 km/h
P-39 Q-10.......2700m.........4000m.........790 km/h
P-47............2300m.........3400m.........920+
109 K4..........2950m.........4700m.........900 km/h
109 F4..........2700m.........4000m.........800 km/h
D9 45...........2900m.........4100m.........930 km/h

Couple of notes. I couldn't get the P-47 to go any faster at the altitude I started from (5000m) It was just starting to shake at 920, but never broke. The planes that broke was usually a control surface. The La7 blew off both wings, and caught fire.

Da Buzz
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<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 12:44 AM
I thought you might like the results of some tests fot patch 07. These are not for accurate climb rates, but just to compare some of the planes to each other. I started at 1000m, and climbed at 270 km/h for two minutes. I wrote down the altitude at one and two minutes. Then I dove down to see at what speed they broke apart. All the planes overheated during the climb, except the La5FN/La7. Here's the results.

................1 minute.......2 min........broke apart

Yak3............2750m.........4100m.........740 km/h
Yak9U...........2800m.........4050m.........780 km/h
La5FN...........2700m.........3800m.........680 km/h
La7.............2850m.........4000m.........680 km/h
P-39 Q-10.......2700m.........4000m.........790 km/h
P-47............2300m.........3400m.........920+
109 K4..........2950m.........4700m.........900 km/h
109 F4..........2700m.........4000m.........800 km/h
D9 45...........2900m.........4100m.........930 km/h

Couple of notes. I couldn't get the P-47 to go any faster at the altitude I started from (5000m) It was just starting to shake at 920, but never broke. The planes that broke was usually a control surface. The La7 blew off both wings, and caught fire.

Da Buzz
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<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 12:48 AM
Nice... gotta love the K4... no 190s (other than Dora) though Buzz?

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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 12:54 AM
I was getting tired, and it's my favorite../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Da Buzz
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<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 01:14 AM
BuzzU wrote:
109 F4..........2700m.........4000m.........800 km/h

That's funny, I just dove a 109F-2 from 5000m and started to broke at about 1000km/h, when the right aileron went of...
Right now I am fighting with AOL to posta pic here... I...must ...do...it.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"The show must go on..."
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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 01:28 AM
Heh maybe the patch will make FB n00bproof again.In one of every seven missions some n00b get`s on my tail and even though I blink like a neon he shoots at me.I tell ya if a guy can`t recognize another guy flying the same plane from closer than 200m then he`s either a Tker or an idiot./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Sorry Buzz, had to vent somewhere.

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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 01:28 AM
TAS or IAS?

Da Buzz
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<center>
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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 01:32 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- TAS or IAS?

TAS

"The show must go on..."
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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 01:33 AM
Mine is IAS. I don't use Wonder Woman view../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Da Buzz
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<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 01:36 AM
I did it only as a test after I've seen this thread.

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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 01:38 AM
If your going to test. At least use the same method. You basically called me wrong.

Da Buzz
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<center>
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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 01:41 AM
Sory for that, That wasn't my intention, but I tought you used TAS, seemed more logical then./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 01:43 AM
Rule #1 of posting test data here: say what units and insturments you're using.

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 01:45 AM
Why would that be logical? I fly in the cockpit. That's the speed I see when I fly. That's the speed I want to know when the plane breaks apart.

Da Buzz
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<center>
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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 01:48 AM
OK. don`t get your knickers in a twist. Thanks for info, but as we know it`s not THE patch. It could still change quite a bit before we see the finished article.

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 01:50 AM
Sweet, Russian birds finally fall apart/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif That seems pretty slow, for them to break though. Dora holds together much better than before also.

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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 01:50 AM
Von_Zero

WTF! In another thread. I just found out you don't have the patch. I clearly said these are results from the patch. What you got in your test in a unpatched game. Means nothing!

The speeds that the planes break apart is one of the things that has changed in the patch. This is what I was trying to show.

Da Buzz
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<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 02:29 AM
Old Grouch would be a little more fitting. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 02:40 AM
Just trying to give some info to those without the patch. How did I end up the bad guy?

Da Buzz
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<center>
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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 02:50 AM
Cause you arn't as popular as me/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif .

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 02:52 AM
Oh, it's very much appreciated. how are your wingmen doing in offline play. Is the bug fixed with your wingmen hitting squad when the enemy is making a shallow turn? Do they still 'team up' on one lonely enemy?

offtopic: I wish for the next Maddox flightsim cutscenes between a couple of missions in offline play. Some newsreel, or getting bit by bit information about planes in development during the war.

blackTIE

BuzzU wrote:
- Just trying to give some info to those without the
- patch. How did I end up the bad guy?
-
- Da Buzz

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 03:12 AM
Well, I'm grateful for the info. Buzz, you could post "the sky is blue", and sooner or later the thread will deteriorate into a 56 post long technical discussion complete with graphs and charts, and eventually you will be seen as the bad guy.

Interesting info. Many say VVS should be superior in later years and at a disadvantage in early years. With the 262, Dora ('44 & '45), and 109K-4 it seems the LW certainly has the edge in later years, and should hold the advantage in early years as well. It seems to me that the only year the VVS will hold any advantage is in 1943, and that may not be the case depending on the strength of the FW-190A-5. I guess it turns out this way since the planes mentioned above saw limited production. I wish/hope servers will place a limit on the amount of these planes available. It would seem silly to have (on a '44 server) swarms of 109K-4's and Dora's flying around when the total production of these planes likely totalled around 1,500 aircraft (with much of this going into 1945). This compared with the thousands of La-7's, P-51's, and Yak-3's that were produced. Remember the Ta-152 is coming also and that will only strengthen my point. Hopefully the future may see a 1945 server with planes like the Yak-3M with 37mm cannon, Yak-9U with increased caliber armament, P-47N, P-51H, and maybe later Spitfire model like the Mk.22 (which is being made). Just my thoughts.

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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 03:16 AM
I host some early 1944 dogfight maps and missions. These usually have Fw 190A8's and Bf 109G14's vs Yak 3/9U and La-5FN's. It is a little more fair and still realistic.

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 03:46 AM
thanks buzzu. i also heard from a very reliable well known source that the new mk108s are like mini nukes. one shot one kill normally and almost track the target they are so accurate. BUT it was also said the K4 is now slower and can be caught easier by yaks...in the level and k4 turns even worse after the patch. also hurri stalls a little now and cant climb as good anymore.and the fw190A9 is a rocket. much faster now and faster than the K4 by a loooong shot. many will be switching from K4s to the FW A9s now i hear.all cannons seem to do more damage now and all planes seem not to take as much damage.all fws now are more forgiving and stall less and turn a little better and are faster overall.the jug is faster and retains energy better. guns might not be improved on it. will post more when i find out more. this all is on the latest patch

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Message Edited on 07/17/0302:48AM by RedDeth

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 03:53 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- Just trying to give some info to those without the
- patch. How did I end up the bad guy?
-
- Da Buzz


I go away for a few days and you've gone from complaining about leaked patches to posting this?

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 04:09 AM
You know what i'm really curious about, is whether the damage model of the controls has changed. It happens all the time flying the IL2, sometimes a single .303 round makes you lose both rudder and elevators. I would estimate that around 33% to 50% of the kills are caused by losing controls. Most probably more than happened IRL.
Especially planes that take a lot of damage are almost always shot down by losing the elevators (IL2 for example).

Also, i strange bug in 1.0: bombs and torpedoes don't do damage when they explode after you died. Kinda strange isn't it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ?

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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 04:11 AM
I guess I got tired of waiting. I already apologized for my weakness.


The top speed of the K4 is way down now. The D9 and La7 are the fast planes now.

The 108 is much more accurate, and I think the 37mm on the P-39 is too, but maybe not.

The P-39 is a little uber now. Look at the climb rate.

.50's on the P-47 do a good job now. I can saw off a wing of a Fw190 easily, and they sound like real guns now. Not so much recoil either. Stall is a little better.

Stall on Fw190 is nasty again like IL2. Maybe worse. Not a noob plane now. Stall on P-39 is still not there. Hurricane still won't stall without alot of effort.

Yaks are still Yaks. Overheat easy is all, and slower.

La7 is still a good plane, but 20mm still weak. Overheats quicker on Wep. As do all planes.

F4 is beautiful. Flys like a Yak3.

Da Buzz
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<center>
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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 04:26 AM
I've been thinking the P-39 is a bit uber too now. It climbs VERY well now, almost as good as an I-153 without the beta patch. The Fw 190's are no newbie planes. They do turn better, but with that has come higher energy bleed and a terrifying high speed stall. Anyways, Bf 109 flyers won't be very happy, but Fw 190 fans will be. Overall most planes have been toned down. Russian planes overheat, are often underpowered and 109's no longer fly 80km/h faster than they should. The only planes that recieved a boost are the Fw 190's (agility) and He 111 (speed). There will be alot of whining once the patch is released. Mostly about "this plane is unflyable because it stalls all the time". But I think that the 08 beta is far more realistic than the origanal FB 1.0 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 05:09 AM
So where are we now? Beta 7 you boys are discussing? So hopefully 8 will be it for downloading. Are we finally getting close?

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Message Edited on 07/17/0312:11AM by Chadburn

ShadowHawk__
07-17-2003, 05:34 AM
Have you tried the test in a P-40? I'm interested to see if she'll still go bang or if it'll dive like it's supposed to.

-Death From Above

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 05:44 AM
Just did a fast test. Only went up once. It overheated so bad, that I got bored waiting to get any higher. From 3500m I dove to 740 km/h. It was shaking, but nothing fell off, and no boom../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Da Buzz
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Message Edited on 07/16/0309:45PM by BuzzU

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 05:50 AM
I think I'm playing test08 now. To me the DM and weapons haven't changed much if at all. The P-47's .50's may seem a little better and more stable. The 108 is nasty. All planes harder to fly. Most improved planes to me are FW-190 (handling, energy retention), P-47 (handling, energy retention), and P-40 (much better energy retention, but it is actually less agile. I had a blast in it but it still doesn't take much damage. Dive bug seems fixed). I think it is more of a case of the other planes being brought closer to P-47 and 190, than the P-47 and 190 being improved (but they certainly are). FW-190, I-16, etc. still immune to samll caliber mg's, hoping this will be changed. The same planes are still too tough: FW-190, I-16, Yaks, Macchi 202 (resistant to cannons). Hope this is changed as well. Macchi-202 still had alot of graphical errors when damaged. Heavier planes seemed to gain energy in dives faster. P-39 seemed to kick a whole-lotta a$$. FW-190's and La-5/7's 20mm cannons still seem weak.

I'm fairly happy with the FM's in 08, I just want the DM's to be fixed and I'll be VERY pleased.

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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 05:54 AM
I hear the only difference between 07 and 08 is the sound.

Da Buzz
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<center>
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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 06:02 AM
That's right, 08 fixes most of the sound problems in 07.

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 06:21 AM
My post was a comparison of FB 1.0 and test08.

Personally, I think I liked version05 better than 08 but then I haven't tested it nearly as much. Btw, I never had 07.

Major Death, what is your server called and what settings do you use?


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Message Edited on 07/17/0305:22AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 06:25 AM
kyrule2 wrote:
- My post was a comparison of FB 1.0 and test08.
-
- Personally, I think I liked version05 better than 08
- but then I haven't tested it nearly as much. Btw, I
- never had 07.

Never seen 6,7, or 8 but 5 was buggie as a mo fo! The drag in the Me262 was... fixxed? Or should I say changed.. eitherway, try and take off in it from the runway.. talk about popin wheelies!

That and the sound was allways dying out... The P47 still sucked... and that is when I went back to ver 1.0 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


TAGERT
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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 06:29 AM
Folks, these betas probably don't reflect the changes in the game accurately. Not that I don't appreciate the effort you put into this buzz...But everything could change before we get the real deal...

Speculation, even with hard numbers, is still speculation.

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</img>.
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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 06:33 AM
Oleg has indicated they are getting close to a release version. The 08 beta that I have is the newest version. As for 05 being better than 07 or 08, I don't think it is. 05 had the same old flight models. 07 and up have new flight models that feel much more realistic.

As for my server name, it is Stab.I/JG1Death at HL. I don't normally host at Ubi.com. My settings are full + SB + GPS usually.

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 06:39 AM
Maj_Death wrote:
- Oleg has indicated they are getting close to a
- release version. The 08 beta that I have is the
- newest version.

That is good news!

- As for 05 being better than 07 or 08, I don't
- think it is. 05 had the same old flight
- models. 07 and up have new flight models that feel
- much more realistic.

Well, I guess it depends on your definition of what is and isnt a flight model... but it is clear that something was changed on the Me262 in test05 in that the drag problem was... Addressed... but overall it was broke



TAGERT
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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 06:55 AM
Yes, the Me 262 no glide or single engine flight bug was fixed. And it remains fixed in all versions after 05.

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 06:59 AM
SO the 20mm on the 190's are still pea shooters? argh

http://www.geocities.com/bs87cr/Wurger2.txt

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 07:03 AM
I wouldn't say that. I fire all guns together, but one blast from Fw will take out any plane, including the P-47.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 07:05 AM
Salute

Something wrong if 109K4 is holding together at 900 km/hr in a dive.

This plane was built no more sturdily than the G models.

It should be a lawn dart at those speeds, with no hope of pulling out of a dive.


Cheers RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 07:10 AM
I was surprised too. It had no problem pulling out, but I wasn't in a steep dive.

Da Buzz
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<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 07:21 AM
I have a BIG prob here...
IU just downloaded the 07 patch(35Mb)and when I try t unzip it, ask for a password.
I just wasted bout an hour on HL asking everybody for it, but no succes..
It seems thatt here are alot ppl that have this patch, so could anyone be so kind to gimme a password?????
PLEASE!!!!

"The show must go on..."
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Message Edited on 07/17/0309:41AM by Von_Zero

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 07:33 AM
Delete that link. You'll get this thread deleted.

Da Buzz
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<center>
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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 07:42 AM
Sorry for that....


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XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 07:44 AM
Thanks. I didn't need a password, so I can't give it to you.

Da Buzz
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<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 08:28 AM
Why not run a quick mission with a high starting alt?

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 08:41 AM
Holy crap! Put some serious seat time in tonight and yes, 08 is definitely better than 05. Like I said before didn't get to play it as much. The "holy crap" was mainly intended for the P-47, in '43 it is a freakn' monster. I NEVER thought I could enjoy the Jug but damn is it a good time in 1943. I've always thought the razorback was cooler than the bubble boy. In '44 the P-47 is still good but in '43 it really is one of the top mounts. Machine guns seem to have less spread and the silly recoil is gone. Damn, it is going to be hard to get me out of the Thunderbolt for awhile.

And as someone else said, it is much more difficult to pull out of dives at super high speeds.

The FW-190 in 08 handles like a dream, it is so much more forgiving. Damn, I can't wait for the official patch so everyone can start flying different planes. I gaurantee there will be many converts from the 109 and Yak (which are still awesome). I just hope the DM gets sorted out, if it is, then we are golden.

Oh, and MD, your server sounds perfect, hats off to you. As soon as official patch comes out I will seek it out.

Cheers.

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http://www.brooksart.com/Typhooncountry.jpg



Message Edited on 07/17/0307:48AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 09:23 AM
For a 44 server, the "new" A-8 can do the job /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Cheers,

Cpt.LoneRanger
07-17-2003, 09:30 AM
Wow!

Thanx for the infos. That sounds really good!

I LOVE the P47 (and P40) and it's good to hear their strengths are implemented finally /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Didn't play IL2FB that much recenty, cause it was more frustration than fun in these crates.

Really looking forward to that patch!


greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 09:32 AM
Oh yes, don't want to say any details, but now I've found again the joy of flying, almost lost for some months!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 09:37 AM
i just want more powerful 20mms at the moment they are like pea shooters.

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 09:57 AM
Do you agree with that?

http://oldsite.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=002032

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 10:22 AM
I don't agree with most of what he said.

Da Buzz
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http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 10:25 AM
Me too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 10:45 AM
kyrule2 wrote:

- The "holy
- crap" was mainly intended for the P-47, in '43 it is
- a freakn' monster. I NEVER thought I could enjoy the
- Jug but damn is it a good time in 1943.

I managed to get hold of a copy of 07 and the first thing I did was give the P-47 a go /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .

I haven't had chance to do any accurate side-by-side tests with the out of the box game, but it definitely feels faster and better at retaining energy. The whole experience is more in line with what I expected a P-47 to feel like. Today I'll have a go at out-diving Bf 110s and see if I can finally loose them in a dive.

One thing that surprised me with the P-47 was that it didn't feel to roll that much faster, certainly not as briskly as I was expecting. I'd have to do a careful check against 1.0 to see if it really is better, but I was left a bit nonplussed by the roll.

Other things I noticed (and again, just impressions not backed up by data), the Fw 190s roll very fast indeed now and the 109's roll gets very sluggish at high speed.

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 10:53 AM
109 always was known for horrible turns and manuevers at high speeds. maybe itll get modelled now. seems to me most planes will be more true to life after the patch. i love FB now but i think ill truly adore it after the patch. and when i finally get my mustang ill frame the game on a wall!

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/p47-22.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 10:59 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- I don't agree with most of what he said.
-
- Da Buzz

well, that is good.

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"The picture repeats itself when operations, which began with great intent and local successes, degenerated into senseless, wild hammering at fixed front-line positions once they encounter initial heavy losses and unforeseen situations. This incomprehensible phenomenon appears again and again. But, even in extremis, the Russian is never logical; he falls back on his natural instinct, and the nature of the Russian is to use mass, steamroller tactics, and adherence to given objectives without regard to changing situations."

German 9th Army report after repulsing the Soviet offensive "Mars" in Rzhev bulge, December 1942.