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avramis
10-29-2005, 05:24 AM
28th of October 1940, is the day Greece entered WWII on the Allies side. On this day, Italian forces crossed the Greek_Albanian border, meeting fierce resistance by the Greek army. Altough this is not some history lesson, its about the airmen, both Greek and foreigners who fought over the skies of Greece, during 1940 and early 41'. When Greece fell to the Germans, the greek air force(at the time Royal Hellenic AirForce -RHAF)moved to the middle east front, eqquiped with RAF fighters(mostly Hurricanes, later on Spits), and continued the fight. Many greek pilots emerged from this era, along with famous Allied aces like J. Pattle (52 kills according to some historians), who fell over Eleusina(near Athens), defending Greece from Axis powers. Greek obsolete fighters like polish PZL's, were reinforced with British Gladiators and Hurricanes, flown by both Greek and 'Commonwealth'(British, South Africans, Australians etc.) pilots. Links below provide order of battle, organization, and general historic information concerning the Battle of Greece, and the actions of the Hellenic airforce during WWII.
It would be very nice to have a balkan map in il2, and would be especially interesting for the many greeks that enjoy this wonderful game for the past years. Of course with BoB comin, this would be extremely difficult.


http://www.haf.gr/ The official site of the Hellenic(Greek) Air Force.

http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/027_greece/40-10-28/_40-10-28_airforce.htm (Order Of Battle)

http://world.std.com/~Ted7/minorafe.htm#Greece

http://www.gmu.edu/org/hellenic/oct28.htm

http://math.fce.vutbr.cz/safarik/ACES/aces1/greece-ww2-raf.html (Greeks fighting with RAF, after german occupation)

http://math.fce.vutbr.cz/safarik/ACES/aces1/greece-ww2-eva.html (Royal Hellenic Air Force stats, before german occupation)

http://members.aol.com/balkandave/greece40.htm

Jatro13th
10-29-2005, 09:21 AM
S~!

HotelBushranger
10-29-2005, 11:00 AM
Very nice, thanks for this http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

CHDT
10-29-2005, 01:03 PM
Anybody have recent pics of the Helldiver preserved in Athens?

Buzzsaw-
10-29-2005, 01:09 PM
Salute Avramis

Thanks for the great information and links.

If you are interested in getting a Greek map, please contact Ian Boys regarding this. He is the author of a number of very good maps, and has asked what people are interested in having created next. I would encourage you to advocate for a Northern Greece/Southern Albania map.

We do have a lot of the aircraft which would be needed for such a campaign, including:

Gladiator
Pzl 11 (sub for Pzl 24)
Hurricane Ia
Blenheim I and IV

CR-42
G-50
109E4 and E7
110C
He-111H
Ju-88A

There is also a good possibility we will get an SM-79 in an addon.

Cheers Buzzsaw

You can find threads with Ian Boys' comments about his other maps on this board or on the SimHQ board, here:

http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=144

If you post on that board, you should be able to get a reply from him.

neural_dream
10-29-2005, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by CHDT:
Anybody have recent pics of the Helldiver preserved in Athens?
Where's that? You mean the 1930s' helldiver? Are you sure?

Jatro13th
10-29-2005, 02:46 PM
Well, went through google a little, and yup!... there it is!

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Aircraft/Helldiver.htm

We've also got a spit MkIXc too.

Don't know what else... sorry.

HelSqnProtos
10-29-2005, 03:41 PM
S~!!!!

Zito Hellas !!!


http://www.13th-hellenicsqn.com/phpBB2/templates/Classic/images/folder_big.gif

neural_dream
10-29-2005, 04:00 PM
forgive my Greek non-Greeks,

Eixa ksekinisei prin kana mina na etoimazw mia mikro-egkyklopaideia (san afti gia ta aeroplana tou paixnidiou pou exw sti sig mou) gia ta aeroplana pou eixame otan epitethikan oi Italoi (eidos, arithmo, mikrh istoria, statistika, istorikes photos ktl) kai afto pou vrika itan xaos. O kathenas o,ti thelei leei, ektos apo dyo-treis piges pou lene liga kai prosegmena, alla oxi arketa.
Exete vrei pote kapoion pou na exei kalypsei afto to thema kai na ton empisteveste gia to ti leei? Vivlio, site, o,ti na'nai.
P.x. eidika gia ton arithmo twn P.24 pou eixame kai akrivws ti custom typou kai ti armament itan to kathena, e ekei einai na gelas me to poso diaferoun oi diafores phges. P.x. to link tou avrami den anaferei katholou ta P.24A pou eixame. Me ton oplismo na deite ti ginetai. H entyhpwsh pou kyriarxei einai oti eixame vgalei ta oerlicon cannons kai eixame mono machine guns giati den eixame arketa vlimata ekeinh tin epoxh. kai ta loipa, kai ta loipa.

joeap
10-29-2005, 04:28 PM
Yasou neural_dream you are Greek too? That's 3 I know of here, Luftwaffe 109, Protos and myself (Greek Canadian to be exact)

HelSqnProtos
10-29-2005, 04:36 PM
S~! Neural Dream

Megali ekpliksi pou matheno oti eisai Ellinas. Xapika Para Poli!

Os to thema gia links kai ta lipa, nai exeis apolito dikio, liga pragmata iparxoun. Exoume emeis eftixos bri ena site pou mas edwse mia poli kali istoriki analisi gi tin 13th. Apo ola ta site auto pou exw bri einai to kalutero. Pisteuw oti exei kai gia tis alles moipes eki mesa. Euxome na bris auto pou zitas.

Auto to site einai stimeno apo ton Kupio Micheal Solonakis. Ama ton kaneis email bori kai na exei perisoteres plirofories. Kali epetixia.

http://koti.welho.com/msolanak/istoria.html


Originally posted by joeap:
Yasou neural_dream you are Greek too? That's 3 I know of here, Luftwaffe 109, Protos and myself (Greek Canadian to be exact)

Jatro 13th is Greek as well.

neural_dream
10-29-2005, 06:54 PM
Efxaristw http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, tha to psaksw.

Jatro13th
10-30-2005, 06:12 AM
S~! Neural, me thn eukairia wraios odhgos gia pilothria. Wraia douleia!

joeap
10-30-2005, 08:05 AM
Cool http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

GreekGuy
10-30-2005, 08:25 AM
Thanks for this very timely info. It gives me a better appreciation of the Battle of Greece, of which I know very little about.

BTW, in a couple of hours, I'm on my way to the "OXI" Parade on the Danforth (in Toronto, Canada) -- as a matter of fact, both of my kids are marching in it -- doing our part to commemorate the sacrifices made by the Greeks and Allies.

A Greek map would be a great addition to this already amazing flight sim.

Zito Ellas....

Jim Mastorakos
(aka Greekguy)
Toronto, Canada

avramis
11-01-2005, 01:51 AM
I'm currently doing some research on the Bloch MB.151 fighters that fought in the RHAF during this time, but sources are severely limited, for both greek and french air forces. I managed to find some info in the web and in aviation magazines, but thats just it. The Bloch's combat history in greek service is the least documented from all the a/c that fought in the war. The Italians and Germans where propably unaware of their presence in the greek arsenal, often reporting contacts with Hurricanes and Spits, with the latter never participating in the Battle of Greece. Any help would be appreciated. I m a history student, and aviation history is kind of a hobby for me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

*Euxaristw gia ta ypoloipa links, boh8hsan arketa.

neural_dream
11-01-2005, 04:33 AM
A few things I wrote when I started writing the little encyclopedia of Greek Aircraft at the Italian Invasion:

Bloch MB.151 C1 Greek (1938)

Engine 1080HP Gnome-Rhone 14N-25 radial engine (or maybe the 1030HP 14N-21)
Speed approx. 505km/h
Range approx. 540km
Service Ceiling approx. 10000m
Climb to 5000m in 6mins
Dimensions wingspan 10.54m, length 9.10m, height 3.03m
Armament wings - 2x7.5mm MAC MG's (or less probably 2x20mm Hispano Suiza Cannon), cowling - 2x7.5mm
Type Fighter
Country of Origin France
Quantity 9
Year of Delivery 1940
Crew 1

The MB.151 was a redesign of the totally unspectacular MB.150. It first flew the 18th of August 1938 and production started a little later. The MB.151 C1 had the 1030HP Gnome-Rhone 14N-21 engine and the MB.152 was almost the same aircraft with the slightly better Gnome-Rhome 14N-25. Another difference was the armament, since the MB.151 had 4x7.5mm MAC machine guns (two in the cowling, two in the wings), while the MB.152 had swapped the two wing guns for 2x20mm Hispano Suiza cannon.
The MB.151 and 152 performed very badly against the Germans, not only because their pilots were much less experienced and were following older and less inspired tactics, but also their Gnome-Rhome 14N engines were not optimised for high altitudes (3000m comparing to the 5000-6000m of the BF109E's DB601 engine). The MB.151 of the Greeks show limited service, but performed quite well. It would outperform most Italian fighters in all respects but manoeuvrability (at least the G.50 and probably the MC.200). They were acquired just before Germany attacked France, and that is why they received only 9 of the 25 ordered. They were organised in the 24th Mira in Elefsina. The Greeks had many problems with the maintenance of these aircraft, especially with the engine's overheating and the lack of spares following France's collapse, but they managed to always have airworthy 4 or 5 of them (like the Finns they could do magic by combining parts). It is speculated that the exact type used by the Greeks was probably the MB.151 with the machine guns, not with the 20mm cannon (due to lack of 20mm ammunition in Greece). Since there were so very few Greek MB.151's they were often misidentified by the enemy aircraft, which makes identifying their fate and their victories very difficult. The only two victories confirmed by the enemy records were by Smyrniotopoulos an Italian Cant Z.1007bis and by Ikonomopoulos a German Do.17Z. Ikonomopoulos had one more victory against a Cant Z.1007 (unconfirmed by Italian records) and Mokkas against a German Bomber. Mokkas was killed after a few minutes by a German fighter, but both events have not yet been confirmed by German sources.

Orion_GR
11-01-2005, 10:34 AM
For any information about Greek sources for the WWI - WWII, the planes, Squadrons and pilots you can visit the Hellenic Community of Combat Flight simulators (http://www.aces-high.gr)

There is 250 Greek members on the website and 55 on forums to help anyone for any Historical or technical information you need.

also techical and historical information, you can find on the Greek Model Club community(http://www.modelclub.gr) and e-haf Falcon 4 Community http://www.e-haf.org .

A member of Aces-High.gr make a Historical Campain mission (we publish this mission westerday) about the first days of Greek - Italian war 1940 with many information on PDF file.

Salute!

HFC_Dolphin
11-01-2005, 12:17 PM
Oh yes Orion, this campaign looks amazing!
I already started playing it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.
Congrats to Sierraxray who did it!

And, Salute to the Greek heroes of WWII!