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HayateAce
09-06-2005, 05:03 PM
This post is banned from Oleg RR.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Have you similar experience with 109 that takes many many hits to die and seem to fight on and on? Thanks for reading, and please email tracks and observances to:

PF@1C.RU



Hi Oleg and 1C.

Seems the 109 damage model is faulty. The airframe and wings can take several hits with very little degradation of flight ability. Most later 109 series retain their ability to continue the fight even after several hits from either .50 or 20mm.

Testing a K4 yesterday I received 1-2 Mk108 hits to the underside of the canopy area. Not only did I continue to fly, I turned the table and destroyed my attacker. In the same flight I had also received several 20mm hits along with some 12.7mm.

Please review the 109 series and in particular the later series for damage model bugs. Thanks.

http://www.pritchettcartoons.com/illustrations/bad_idea.gif

Jaws2002
09-06-2005, 05:09 PM
Did you send your sig too? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

GBrutus
09-06-2005, 05:11 PM
No fish in these waters, better luck next time. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SeaFireLIV
09-06-2005, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
This post is banned from Oleg RR.



Perhaps they wouldn`t be banned if you`d learn to be more UNBIASED in your opinion about buggy aircraft. Try to be fair on all sides for a change and someone might back you up.

HayateAce
09-06-2005, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
Did tou send your sig too? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Damm 190 flier sense of hoomur.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

HayateAce
09-06-2005, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
This post is banned from Oleg RR.



Perhaps they wouldn`t be banned if you`d learn to be more UNBIASED in your opinion about buggy aircraft. Try to be fair on all sides for a change and someone might back you up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SHOOT!

It's my passion shining out again.

Nice art.

MEGILE
09-06-2005, 05:30 PM
wha

NorrisMcWhirter
09-06-2005, 05:47 PM
No track I notice....just words http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

Chuck_Older
09-06-2005, 05:58 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifThe thread is locked, not banned

It's locked, and Ivan gave you the e-mail address for the bug report. Seems fair to me. Report it, and if it's actually a bug, you've gone the only route that will get it addressed. Oleg doesn't lurk the boards hoping to get wind of a new bug

JG53Frankyboy
09-06-2005, 06:16 PM
what oleg realy dont like is the sentence "it seems..." http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

normaly it means he will ignore totaly the rest

NorrisMcWhirter
09-06-2005, 06:23 PM
Like Victor Kiam said, I was so 'impressed with this claim, I though I'd...' try it out for myself. Just been and had a go in QMB and here's a track of that oh-so-tough 109 vs 'undermodelled .50s'

http://www.brayllo.plus.com/sig/noobstang.trk

Not many hits required for either, I think you'll find http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

JG53Frankyboy
09-06-2005, 06:28 PM
i dont know how the topic startet made his test.
but in general weapon test should be made only offline. online are to many factors that are hurting the whole system.

how it influences when playing on LAN i dont know.

danjama
09-06-2005, 06:55 PM
i dont like this thread(post count +1 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif )

Targ
09-06-2005, 07:16 PM
Is this thread a joke?

Luftwaffe_109
09-06-2005, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by Targ:
Is this thread a joke?

If only...

Pirschjaeger
09-06-2005, 07:48 PM
In before locked. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Fritz

3.JG51_BigBear
09-06-2005, 07:57 PM
This isn't going to go anywhere anyway. +1

partic_3
09-06-2005, 09:50 PM
Don't be so hard on the poster. I've noticed many strange occurrences with this game. For instances sometimes when I shoot at a 109, I miss! I mean, come on! All the movies I've seen prove that you only need to wave your gun in the general direction of a German in ww2 and you kill 'em!
We all know that Oleg favours the 109, hence the fact that the .50's are screwed, US planes are porked and the fish are boned!
And another thing, have you noticed how over-modelled the parachutists are? They hit the ground running! This is the worst game ever! I'm off to play with myself! (talked about over modelled!!)

*edited because I like my spelling to be correct when I'm being a smart-****. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BelaLvgosi
09-06-2005, 10:36 PM
That sig is wrong, so no one can take you seriously. The brick is actually in the elevators, not in the airframe http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

FritzGryphon
09-06-2005, 10:44 PM
Wrong plane too. 2-bladed prop, wrong wing shape, wrong tail shape.

No mass balances on the ailerons...

Badsight.
09-06-2005, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Targ:
Is this thread a joke? do you show up once a month just to post stuff like that ?

Pirschjaeger
09-06-2005, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
Wrong plane too. 2-bladed prop, wrong wing shape, wrong tail shape.

No mass balances on the ailerons...

The landing gear is too far apart also.

Fritz

wayno7777
09-06-2005, 11:31 PM
That plane in the sig is P-47.... Lead said so....

HayateAce
09-06-2005, 11:38 PM
OOPS!

Specifically this issue is OnLine play.

msalama
09-06-2005, 11:45 PM
...ignore totaly the rest

And for a bloody reason too!

msalama
09-06-2005, 11:46 PM
...just to post stuff like that ?

Dunno about him, but I seem to http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Xiolablu3
09-07-2005, 12:52 AM
109???

Do you have the 9 and the 0 in the wrong place??

No problems here with shooting down 109's, or being shot down in them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pirschjaeger
09-07-2005, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
109???

Do you have the 9 and the 0 in the wrong place??

No problems here with shooting down 109's, or being shot down in them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Excuse me sir, this is not place for honesty. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

Luftwaffe_109
09-07-2005, 02:12 AM
109???

Do you have the 9 and the 0 in the wrong place??

No problems here with shooting down 109's, or being shot down in them

Responce from HayateAce:
"Pffft, what's the difference? They both have swastikas on their tails."

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Disclaimer: The above is a joke.

LeadSpitter_
09-07-2005, 02:29 AM
He is correct numerous times your able to survive multiple passes from hispano cannon from 2-3 spitfires being completely intact no clipped cables and just a fuel leak.

Fly spits vs 109s and use hispano only with no .303s, fly both sides to see. Being on the recieving end of hispanos in a 109 along with being the one firing them.

Luftwaffe_109
09-07-2005, 02:36 AM
LeadSpitter_, HayateAce claims he received 2 30mm Mk 108 hits(!), and several 20mm and 12.7mm hits without having his flying characteristics seriously degraded and managed to down one of his pursuers.

How many time has this happened to you, because honestly it has not ever happened to me.

LeadSpitter_
09-07-2005, 02:44 AM
I have but from 2-4 108s and multiple mg151s the 109 is barley able to stay in the air with one wing dipping extremely bad having to use full right aileron to keep it airborn. Performance in speed does not drop much at all like most ac in game when hit is what hes saying which is correct. every other ac in game when shot even once looses 30-40kmph, the only people who seem to cry about this are the 190 pilots but it does happen to every ac in game the 109 being least effected by damage and speed loss.

still its from multiple passes no clipped cables, no wounded pilot, able to land successfully.

carguy_
09-07-2005, 03:00 AM
Me109 DM is not very complicated aswell as all aircraft in the game.I though that when you hit a tip of an airframe you don`t do damage.I`ve done this many times without effect but I had also been hit with 30mm Russian gun which created a big explosion at the tip of the wing(not the frame).It seems those 30mm scattered everywhere but didn`t hit any structures.Noticed this on all planes.


And yes,I do feel the 109 takes more damage now but IMO some of you guys don`t have any idea that the fight is over once you hit a 109 in the wing.A 109 with a hle in the wing loses speed,worstenes stall speed and has a terrible behaviour of damaged wing flipping.

Most reasons why I bail are:
1.Oil leak.
2.Control cables shot up(mainly elevator).
3.Flak hit.
4.Kommandogereat failure.

The tail of 109 is the toughest part of its airframe but any part in front of the windshield is bound to jamm,stop,leak from 7mm MG damage.

Pirschjaeger
09-07-2005, 03:00 AM
I don't fly all the planes, but once the 109 receives a few hits, very few, it doesn't fly so well anymore. It stalls very easily when I try to turn. The speed is noticably reduced also.

The engine is very weak and pukes oil over the windscreen often. It also overheats very easily.

I'm not complaining about it. It is still my favorite plane and my first choice. All planes have their strengths and weaknesses. The 109 is how it is. This is only a sim and although it is the best sim, it still lacks a lot, but that's no one's fault.

Fritz

F19_Ob
09-07-2005, 06:53 AM
I fly different planes all the time and the ability to take hits and fight on isn't present more in the 109 than some others.

Just one example from online.
I was flying a La5 and suddenly were surrounded by 109's comming from above. My wingman immediately got two 109's on him and I tried to assist but I myself got two on me and I passed several others. I tried to get atleast one before bailing because escapetime was long gone.
I took several hits in the wing and got big holes in it and then because of lessened performance took hits in the other wing aswell losing an aileron and at this point was fairly out of action. There was nothing to do more than put in landingflap and trim up and be slow and try to keep altitude wich is hard for most planes. Most of this time I had the two 109's making passes behind me , trying to pull enough deflection in their forced low speed.
So with a severly disabled fighter I could keep the 2 bf 109's from shooting me down before the map ended.
I think skill was one factor but I alsobelive the abilty of my plane enabled me to do this.
A fun track to watch, although my wingmate wasn't as lucky . they got his elevator early on, but he rolled out of harm surprisingly often before he finall was too low to do anything more.

With background of the above I could give many examples in the 109 and La5 where a few hits only disabled the plane so bad that similar maneuvering as above would have been impossible.
This tells me atleast that many levels of damage is possible and many hits that dont damage vital controlls may keep U flying while a single or a few hits on a vital spot may dissable u from further fighting or even flying.

So just pointing at the 109 is not right.
There is however one factor with the 109 wich one must take into account and that is the gentle stall. With damage in a wing a wing usually dips and a plane mays snap or stall when countering it. In my opinion a plane with gentle stall would handle damage like this better than a plane with a very bad snappy stall.

well a few thoughts.

HayateAce
09-07-2005, 08:23 AM
I'm not saying the 109 is 190 invincible.

Just some odd places or Hit Boxes on the 109 allow for some whacky things. Sadly no track of the online experience with the K4. I was shocked when my opponent slammed two mk108s to my gut yet I was able to turn on him.

In Yak3, hits to fuse leave very many fragment holes and flight performance drops off steeply. In this K4, I saw and noticed no problems after the 30mm hits.

And don't say Mk108 porked either, hits of this 30mm to Yak or Spit are devastating as they should be.

Pirschjaeger
09-07-2005, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
I'm not saying the 109 is 190 invincible.

Just some odd places or Hit Boxes on the 109 allow for some whacky things. Sadly no track of the online experience with the K4. I was shocked when my opponent slammed two mk108s to my gut yet I was able to turn on him.

In Yak3, hits to fuse leave very many fragment holes and flight performance drops off steeply. In this K4, I saw and noticed no problems after the 30mm hits.

And don't say Mk108 porked either, hits of this 30mm to Yak or Spit are devastating as they should be.

Why is it that I can hit a P-51 with 3-4 mk108s and it still flies? Mind you, this is offline so I don't know if it is different online.

My point is, that if you can easily blast an La7 or Spit (as you claimed) into history, but can only tickle the p-51 to death with the Mk108, can you blame the Mk108?

It seems more like the dm is wrong on the planes rather than the mk108 being overmodelled.

In real, how many fighters survived Mk108 hits relative to all fighters that were hit with the Mk108? I doubt many lived to tell about it. You've seen what one hit can do to a bomber's fuselage.

Fritz

HayateAce
09-07-2005, 09:55 AM
Noooo,

Mk108 is NOT overmodeled. Maybe even undermodeled in hit power but too accurate? In real life mk108 is not used on fighters.

The issue is quirky 109 DM, so yes several fighters still have funny DM. P51 you say? Ok to weaken in som areas MAYBE, but this instant propellor stop is stupid and unreal.

You must understand that glass jaw P51 reputation is from ground fire AAA while these pilots are strafing low. Yes ONE hit to the lower engine could knock out any glycol cooled inline fighter. HOWEVER, instant prop stop is wrong in P51. Bf109 is 85% of the time allowed to continue with squeeky-creeky motor and RTB often. P51 with hits to engine could also motor on for a time to try for a belly landing or the like. Oleg has it wrong with 100% instant prop stop.

Back to 109, DM will be fixed for 4.02 we hope. It is important fighter and 1 of only 2 German fighter types. Get it right, because accurate Western Front scenario is not possible in 4.01.

JG52Karaya-X
09-07-2005, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Testing a K4 yesterday I received 1-2 Mk108 hits to the underside of the canopy area. Not only did I continue to fly, I turned the table and destroyed my attacker.

Sounds like an interesting server... Bf109s vs ... Bf109s? Anyway - ever heard of lag? And 1-2 Mk108 hits arent really much in this game. It usually take 4-5 to down a P51 or a comparable bird for example.

JG52Karaya-X
09-07-2005, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Noooo,

Mk108 is NOT overmodeled. Maybe even undermodeled in hit power but too accurate? In real life mk108 is not used on fighters.

The issue is quirky 109 DM, so yes several fighters still have funny DM. P51 you say? Ok to weaken in som areas MAYBE, but this instant propellor stop is stupid and unreal.

You must understand that glass jaw P51 reputation is from ground fire AAA while these pilots are strafing low. Yes ONE hit to the lower engine could knock out any glycol cooled inline fighter. HOWEVER, instant prop stop is wrong in P51. Bf109 is 85% of the time allowed to continue with squeeky-creeky motor and RTB often. P51 with hits to engine could also motor on for a time to try for a belly landing or the like. Oleg has it wrong with 100% instant prop stop.

Back to 109, DM will be fixed for 4.02 we hope. It is important fighter and 1 of only 2 German fighter types. Get it right, because accurate Western Front scenario is not possible in 4.01.

Corky Meyer - a USAAF test pilot who flew many fighters from the major countries of WWII including the P51B/D/H said they all had bad lateral stall conditions in clean and in combat gunnery situation and that the engine vulnerability was its biggest drawback - a rifle calibre bullet anywhere in the colling system would result in the engine stopping. More or less quick, depending on the situation...

Pirschjaeger
09-07-2005, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Noooo,

Mk108 is NOT overmodeled. Maybe even undermodeled in hit power but too accurate? In real life mk108 is not used on fighters.

The issue is quirky 109 DM, so yes several fighters still have funny DM. P51 you say? Ok to weaken in som areas MAYBE, but this instant propellor stop is stupid and unreal.

You must understand that glass jaw P51 reputation is from ground fire AAA while these pilots are strafing low. Yes ONE hit to the lower engine could knock out any glycol cooled inline fighter. HOWEVER, instant prop stop is wrong in P51. Bf109 is 85% of the time allowed to continue with squeeky-creeky motor and RTB often. P51 with hits to engine could also motor on for a time to try for a belly landing or the like. Oleg has it wrong with 100% instant prop stop.

Back to 109, DM will be fixed for 4.02 we hope. It is important fighter and 1 of only 2 German fighter types. Get it right, because accurate Western Front scenario is not possible in 4.01.

Hayate, the Mk108 is very inaccurate when I'm flying but that's 100% my fault. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I agree with you about the engine in the P-51. It's too weak and yes, I think the instant prop stop is silly.

As for the 109 I have noticed it to be very inconsistant. Sometimes the smallest hit is worth a Ctrl E. But something else I have noticed, is that online I can take more hits before being ripped apart. Online, anytime I'm hit in the wing, even the smallest hit, the performance is gone. Just trying to turn takes everything, but, I can still fly. But offline, the AI rip me apart instantly if I mess up and give them a chance.

It seems that online, the fuselage is stronger than offline. But, is the inconsistancy with the dm or does it depend more on the plane attacking? I do know that each plane has different firepower and ofcourse this would have different effects, but I've yet to see consistancy in the dm.

Fritz

Von_Rat
09-07-2005, 10:16 AM
all planes take ungodly amount of hits somtimes and just keep flying fine. if you think its just the 109 you don't fly enough.

as for 108 being to accurate, you try flying with no effective guns except 108 for a couple of years, you''ll get extremely accurate with it too.

its not that its the 108 being to accurate, its all the experten that have been forced to shoot it for years,because of porked 20mm, that are to accurate.

Pirschjaeger
09-07-2005, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
Testing a K4 yesterday I received 1-2 Mk108 hits to the underside of the canopy area. Not only did I continue to fly, I turned the table and destroyed my attacker.

Sounds like an interesting server... Bf109s vs ... Bf109s? Anyway - ever heard of lag? And 1-2 Mk108 hits arent really much in this game. It usually take 4-5 to down a P51 or a comparable bird for example. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah yes, lag. I used to have so much trouble online. There was no way I could miss a shot but yet, I missed. Planes were hitting me when I could clearly see it was impossible. I told me teammates and they said it was my SA. They said "make tracks and study them". So I did.

One interesting track was I was turning tighter in a sustained circle. I could clearly view, from the top of my canopy, the top of the enemy plane. But imagine, he was still hitting me. From my buddies track the view was completely different. He could show that I was in his sights. From my track it was clear it was impossible to hit me.

Lag can play a lot of tricks. Maybe the best way to test dm's is on a lan set up. This could also explain why we get so many varied opinions or experiences with same planes.

Fritz

lrrp22
09-07-2005, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:

Corky Meyer - a USAAF test pilot who flew many fighters from the major countries of WWII including the P51B/D/H said they all had bad lateral stall conditions in clean and in combat gunnery situation and that the engine vulnerability was its biggest drawback - a rifle calibre bullet anywhere in the colling system would result in the engine stopping. More or less quick, depending on the situation...

Corky Meyer was a civilian test pilot for Grumman. He was the project pilot for the Hellcat, as well as the F7F and F8F. You have to realize that when he referes to the Mustang's stall characteristics, he is relating it to carrier operations suitability. To be sure, the Mustang was no Hellcat in the stall regime.

As for engine damage, the Mustang shouldn't be any more susceptible to one hit engine stoppages than any other inline fighter. The effect in PF is just that- an effect. If the Mustang's engine should instantly stop on being hit, so should the engine of every other inline, water-cooled engine. The Mustang's reputed 'glass jaw' comes from it being compared to the USAAF and USN's robust radials and not because it had some unique flaw.

Pirschjaeger
09-07-2005, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by lrrp22:
The Mustang's reputed 'glass jaw' comes from it being compared to the USAAF and USN's robust radials and not because it had some unique flaw.

I have a documentary , "Target Berlin", where the P-51 is discussed. They, Anderson, Yaeger, and others, said the exact same thing. They were comparing it to the radials (P-47 IIRC).

Fritz

plumps_
09-07-2005, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
In real life mk108 is not used on fighters.
Wrong. Of course fighters that were equipped with an MK 108 cannon used it against enemy fighters. What else should they have done at the sight of an enemy? Fly home and tell the mechanic to mount a smaller cannon so they could re-enter the fight? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

In fact the MK 108 was a very good weapon to shoot down fighters, because a widespread tactic in a situation where the air above Germany was crowded with the 8th and the 9th Air Force, the RAF and VVS, was not to dogfight but to sneak up on the last aircraft of a flight, fire a quick burst, and run away before anybody knew what was going on.

The strong hitting power of the MK 108 was essential in that situation. There are pilot accounts that describe how they shoot down fighters with the 30 mm cannon. One can be found on page 301 of Julius Meimberg's book "Feindberテシhrung". On December 26, 1944, within a few minutes he shot down three P-47 from three different flights that were looking for ground targets over southern Germany (firing at anything that moved), before his Bf-109 G-14 equipped with a 30 mm cannon was damaged in the explosion of the last P-47 and he got shot down himself.

Luftwaffe fighters shooting down other fighters with the MK 108 in Forgotten Battles late war servers is absolutely realistic.

WOLFMondo
09-07-2005, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
Corky Meyer - a rifle calibre bullet anywhere in the colling system would result in the engine stopping. More or less quick, depending on the situation...

More or less quick? You can't base any argument on a comment like that. Does he mean quick as in instant or in 30 seconds time?

My old Pentium 1 90mhz was quick, now its slow...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kocur_
09-07-2005, 02:50 PM
In thread on P-47 bug of cutting fuselage behind cocpit, FritzGryphon performed tests of how many hits by different weapons it takes to break P-47 nad Bf-109 fuselage. His reault was:

-----M2--Ho--Hisp-MG151-MK108
P47: 33.6 10.4 9.7- 5.5- 2
109: 10.8 6.2- 4.4- 4.2- 1.3

All following is my post from that thread edited a bit:

Lets replace above results with quantity of explosive statistically delivered by those hits. Lets drop M2 as it doesnt bring explosive(Japanese cannon too not to blur the picture)

We should refer to actual hits and types of projectiles hitting but I think it will be fair to use average.

Hispano:
belting:
SAPI,HE, so in ten hits
5 x 10,4g = 52g explosive
5,2g per hit

for MG151/20:
belting:
AP,HE,MG,MG,MG

2 x 3,68g + 6 x 20,24 = 7,36 + 121,44 = 128,8g explosive
12,8g per hit

for MK108:
belting:
MG

82,5g per hit

So in the test following quantities of explosive were deivered to both planes fuselages to achieve failure:

--------M2-----BH------------MG151/20------------MK108
P47: ---M2-----50,4g-----------70,4g-------------165g

--------M2-----BH------------MG151/20------------MK108
109: ---M2----22,9g------------53,8g-------------107g



Lets now calcualte "KE + chemical energy", that is values in 粐ぎナ電amage" (d) column from Table 1 here http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

M2:
10 x 46= 460d
46d per hit

Hispano:
5 x 194 + 5 x 201 = 1975d
197,5d per hit

MG151/20
2 x 109 + 2 x 110 + 6 x 236 = 1854d
185,4d per hit

MK108
10 x 580 = 5800d
580d per hit

So comparison of following quantities of "d", which is combined kinetic and chemical energy of explosive and weight of explosive deivered by different weapons to achieve breaking in half fuselages of P-47 and Bf-109 is as follows:

-------------------------------M2-----------BH------------MG151/20--------------MK108
P47: damage ----------------1545,6d--------1915d----------1019d----------------1160d
P47:explosive ----------------M2-----------50,4g------------70,4g----------------165g



-------------------------------M2-----------BH------------MG151/20------------MK108
109:damage ------------------496,8d---------869d-----------778d-----------------754d
109: explosive-----------------M2----------22,9g-----------53,8g----------------107g

What we see is different resistance of both planes to different ways of 粐ぎナ電elivering粐ぎツ of destructive energy, i.e kinetic (KE) or chemical (CE):
In P47 we see that it takes 1545d by M2 (KE) and 1160d by MK108 (CE mostly), i.e. it takes delivering more KE to achieve critical damage than CE, which is logical.

In Bf-109 its 496,8d by M2 (KE) and 754d by MK108 (CE mostly), ie. it takes delivering more CE to achieve critical damage than KE, which is nonsence.


BH delivered 1915d and 50,4g of explosive to destroy P47 fuselage, and MG151/20 delivering 20g more explosive it took only 1019d to deliver to achieve that. That is: bringing more explosive reduces quantity of KE required to destroy structure 粐ぎ" looks ok.

In Bf-109 case BH delivered 869d and 22,9g of explosive to achieve critical damage, and MG151/20 delivering almost twice as much of explosive achieved it with little less, i.e 778 of d. That is delivering TWICE more explosive reduced very little quantity of KE required to destroy structure, almost as if explosions never happened! Rubbish!

Comparison between BH and MK108 for both planes makes the picture even clearer.

In conclusion:

Bf-109 DM is messed up a lot, that is Bf-109 is way too strong against HE type projectiles.
And IMO ten .50 hits were not enough IRL to cut Bf-109 fuselage in half.

HayateAce
09-07-2005, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by plumps_:
.....

Nyet.

Most accounts state that mk108 was not the preferred fighter to fighter weapon. One anecdote of a lucky 109er finding Thunderbolts at low level ground strafing ain't gonna cut it.

Regardless, I will not be sucked into further mk108 debate as a diversion. The topic is that the 109 DM is quirky and it's too important of an a/c to remain this way.

NorrisMcWhirter
09-07-2005, 03:18 PM
'Ace' is correct although this problem isn't confined to online play.

In QMB, I took a K4 out against 2x ace K4s. First run I collided with another K4 during BNZ so I had another go. This time, I hit one of the K4s in my first bnz pass and it took a MK108 straight in the cockpit without any damage whatsoever. No lag involved.

I then flew the P51 again against 2xK4s. This time, I managed to make a hash of things and was hit by a MK108 in the fuselage - no damage
whatsoever.

So, he's correct in saying that his 109 took no damage. Only it's not the 109 DM that's at fault - it's the MK108.

We've all seen planes flying off w/o damage after a 108 hit online but this was offline.

Maybe Oleg should investigate this, instead?

Ta,
Norris

Jetbuff
09-07-2005, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Targ:
Is this thread a joke? do you show up once a month just to post stuff like that ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nah... I think Targ, like myself, is not always compelled to respond to every troll. Once in a while though one can't help but post; you gotta admit that a lot of these FM/DM whines are funny! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

JG5_UnKle
09-07-2005, 04:06 PM
Too funny http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

This thread isn't even a whine, like the author it's just a big joke

MOH_MADMAN
09-07-2005, 04:20 PM
sending box o kleenex asap..

HayateAce
09-07-2005, 04:25 PM
Awright.

Just checking in to confirm we are staying on topic that 109 DM is faulty.

Danke.

plumps_
09-07-2005, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by plumps_:
.....

Nyet.

Most accounts state that mk108 was not the preferred fighter to fighter weapon. One anecdote of a lucky 109er finding Thunderbolts at low level ground strafing ain't gonna cut it.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>"Not the preferred fighter to fighter weapon" is a worthless statement in a situation where the Luftwaffe had to fight anything from Spitfires to P-47s, P-51s, B-25s, B-26s, B-17s and B-24s that were coming in all the time in strategic or tactical missions without asking for permission or introducing themselves.

The Luftwaffe had to be prepared to shoot down bombers, which was the primary task, that's why they were equipped with 30 mm cannons. But that wouldn't stop them from using their weapons against fighters if they came across them in a patrol.

There may have been certain units that would specialize in detracting the fighter cover while some heavier armed units were fighting large scale strategic bombing attacks.

But that kind of specialization was not omnipresent; those strategic bombings were not the only menace the Luftwaffe faced, und you shouldn't use it as an excuse to request unrealistic restrictions for the opposite side.

While it may not have been the "preferred" weapon against fighters, the MK 108 was a weapon that was also used against fighters simply because it was in widespread service. If you don粐ぎ冲 find many accounts on its use against fighters the reason may be that it was too common to even mention.

plumps_
09-07-2005, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Awright.

Just checking in to confirm we are staying on topic that 109 DM is faulty.

Danke. No problem. Simply post your comprehensive damage model tests with tracks that prove your case. You might even become a respected member of the community.

Brain32
09-07-2005, 05:26 PM
Just to add, I really don't know how things are online(I'm 56k) but if they weaken 109 offline it will be...funny(insert a lot of swearing here).
One, ONE burst from .50 cal and 109 becomes not only uncapable for fighting but completely unusable!!!(extreme drag if shot in wings or oil splatter) do I even have to say what happens if shot with hispano/shvak...

Pirschjaeger
09-07-2005, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
Bf-109 DM is messed up a lot, that is Bf-109 is way too strong against HE type projectiles.
And IMO ten .50 hits were not enough IRL to cut Bf-109 fuselage in half.

Kocur, thx my friend, that's what I meant when I said there was an inconsistancy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


Fritz

Badsight.
09-07-2005, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Noooo,

Mk108 is NOT overmodeled. Maybe even undermodeled in hit power but too accurate? In real life mk108 is not used on fighters. apparently Eric Hartmann liked the power of the Mk-108

mind you he was point blank killer , but hes one who preferred the Mk-108 for all A2A killing

seems to me that Bf-109s may be taking more 20mm now , but thats just my assumption from trying to bust them up in a DF

one thing is for sure tho , ever since a late FB v1.X patch - Bf-109s have an actual measure of strength from dead six - waste of ammo shooting them if you are following one level