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View Full Version : four point oh patch: P51 outdives Me-262?



Hawgdog
07-08-2005, 06:13 AM
Just one offline flight, me in a 262,and four of them in P-51's. Several times I'm diving at 700kph and I've got the acemaker on my tail! It took quite a bit to outdive them. I assumed a turnfight would kill me. But I was suprised to see the 262 couldnt outrun the P-51's unless I already had a good jump on them. Better not try and outclimb them either. I always thought the jetjabo could outclimb the 51's.
started at 10k, 50% fuel (AI had 100% and were experienced) Do the AI still have the advantage?

Badsight.
07-08-2005, 06:24 AM
first of all which P-51 ? the new super fast MkII Mustang ?

& 2nd , the 262 cannot dive past 1050 Kmh , anything past 900 is dangerous but still survivable , over 1050 however is not

Bearcat99
07-08-2005, 06:30 AM
Actually from what I read that was the only way a P-51 could catch a 262.... in a dive... believe it or not...

MEGILE
07-08-2005, 06:37 AM
Hmmm, doubtfull full power dive though? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Me262 should be in a league of its own. Where is Robban when you need a test? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

lbhskier37
07-08-2005, 06:41 AM
they could catch up with a 262 if they dove on a level flying one. Any jet should be able to pull away from prop planes because as speed increases a prop starts acting like a brake, while a jet makes more thrust. If the P-51s caught you at low speeds (under450kph) or had higher energy than you to start with, they would be able to hold with you in a dive long enough to kill you. About climbing, you should climb with the 262 at 400kph or more, to keep with your rate of climb other planes will have to go much slower, so you will rocket away from them. If you try to climb at 280kph in a 262 you will be dead soon.

Slickun
07-08-2005, 07:25 AM
P-51's dove extremely fast, and retained that energy well.

Hawgdog
07-08-2005, 08:37 AM
The one that plugged my engine was the D20na
I just redid the QM and they caught me in a shallow dive, I hit 840 and shaking severely. I was able to pull away for a few moments but they caught me in the climb- After I got 2 clicks away.
Theres no way a P-51 could outdo a ME-262, if pilots are equal.
The only reason the 51's hammered the jets were the odds- they got overwhelmed and jumped them on the ground!

edit: I've flown long enough to understand how to outdo the AI, no vertical climbs, the 262 is nuetered. At least they didnt fix the overheat bug..

geetarman
07-08-2005, 08:58 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hawgdog:
The one that plugged my engine was the D20na
Theres no way a P-51 could outdo a ME-262, if pilots are equal.
The only reason the 51's hammered the jets were the odds- they got overwhelmed and jumped them on the ground!

You're wrong here

Waldo.Pepper
07-08-2005, 09:22 AM
THIS IS A GAME!

Me thinks some research ino the two planes MACH number would be in order.

F19_Ob
07-08-2005, 09:28 AM
I don't know much of the 262, but how was it's accelleration compared to the p51?
The accelleration wasn't great in the p51 but it accellerated fast in dives.
I have a vague memory that the 262 accellerated slowly??
Could this be why the p51's caught up?

lbhskier37
07-08-2005, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by F19_Ob:
I don't know much of the 262, but how was it's accelleration compared to the p51?
The accelleration wasn't great in the p51 but it accellerated fast in dives.
I have a vague memory that the 262 accellerated slowly??
Could this be why the p51's caught up?

262 accelerated slow at lower speeds, but once at higher speeds it should accerate much faster than prop planes. Could someone try this with a P-80? That should be able to outdive p51s too.

F0_Dark_P
07-08-2005, 10:13 AM
i should not say this, couse it is a little embarrasing

...my squadmate outdived my 262 and shoot me dead in a J8A http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

i dived in 700+ and he got me

BBB_Hyperion
07-08-2005, 10:22 AM
High Alt Modeling and Close to Mach Speed behaviar is off on all planes.

Slickun
07-08-2005, 11:11 AM
Early jets accelerated poorly. In fact, in jet transition, my Dad said that was the main difference.

P-51's running 21 or 25 pounds boost, like nearly all were in late 44/early 45, accelerated much MUCH better than their cousins that ran at 18 lbs boost. Mustang 3 and 4's, running 25 pounds boost, accelerated better at some altitudes than P-38L-5's @ 3450 hp.

P-51's were dove at over mach .8, didn't really show signs of compressability until then, and retained controllability at mach .83. This is circa 600 mph TAS. Fast enough. Starting at the heigths the ME's were operating to get at the Heavies, one can see how P-51's could get the drop on an ME.

If the P-51 was faster than the ME, after a dive, the ME's options were limited.

Slickun
07-08-2005, 11:14 AM
Don't get me wrong. IMHO, the Me-262 was the outstanding fighter plane of WW2.

That didn't mean it was invulnerable, especially if forced to maneuver.

Get fast, stay fast, and they pretty well WERE invulnerable.

Except on landing and take-off.

Hawgdog
07-08-2005, 01:15 PM
What I tried to say was:
I was clipping along at 450, got jumped, started to dive at 100%, hit 750+, and the p51 was still there, as I went past 800 only then was I able to begin pulling away- in a shallow climb once I was 2 clicks in front of the p-51 it caught me!
I also said I'd never try and turn fight in that thing, however it should be a vastly superior B&Z'er no??

game facts:
P-51 wieght 3992kg
climb to 6000k 7 minutes

262 wieght 6896 kg
climb to 6000k 6.8 minutes

The heavier jet should dive like a demon! sustained E and outclimb the P51

Stackhouse25th
07-08-2005, 01:25 PM
aviation is one big mystery, most pilots cant even land well

TAGERT.
07-08-2005, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Hawgdog:
Just one offline flight, me in a 262,and four of them in P-51's. Several times I'm diving at 700kph and I've got the acemaker on my tail! It took quite a bit to outdive them. I assumed a turnfight would kill me. But I was suprised to see the 262 couldnt outrun the P-51's unless I already had a good jump on them. Better not try and outclimb them either. I always thought the jetjabo could outclimb the 51's.
started at 10k, 50% fuel (AI had 100% and were experienced) Do the AI still have the advantage? Early Jets are known for not accelerating very well relitive to props.. Thus a 262 pilot in game has to be the ultimet BnZer to stay alive.. Trading speed for alt and then alt for speed.. If you start trying to turn fight with a prop and loose your speed advantage, the prop will than use it's acceleration advantage and get on your six and will eat you up before you get a chance too spool back up to speed.

VMF-214_HaVoK
07-08-2005, 02:57 PM
Bud Anderson stated that the Mustang slowly but surely could catch a Me262 in a dive. I think I will take his word for it.

Slickun
07-08-2005, 03:51 PM
Hawgdog, which P-51?

Again, if you are talking about the "new" Mustang III in the game, with 25 lbs (81"hg map)it climbs way WAY faster than a P-51D running at 18" boost.

It starts at almost 2000 hp at 0 feet, and actually exceeds 2000 at around 4000 feet.

The effects on every performance aspect is huge. Acceleration, speed, ROC, dive acceleration, zoom climb, ALL are way superior to Mustangs running lower boosts.

The Mustang III @ 25 lbs is probably a better historical match than P-51's @ 18 lbs boost.

lbhskier37
07-08-2005, 03:59 PM
I believe jets accelerating at low speeds getting beat by props, but as you get closer to a prop planes max speed, the acceleration drops off pretty fast. In this range, a jets acceleration should be much better than a prop planes. If you start a 262 and a p51 both at 550kph, the 262 should pull away from the p51 pretty quickly, but if you start them both at 300khp, the p51 should walk away from the 262. About the zoom climb, in a shallow zoom the 262 should walk away from anything in this game being so heavy and having very slick aerodynamics, if the P51 at the same speed is out zooming a 262 there is something wrong.

Aaron_GT
07-08-2005, 04:02 PM
The RAF rated dive performance in the order: Meteor, Tempest, P47, P51. I would imagine that the Me 262 would be similar, but then it might not be. Also it would depend on dive entry conditions. If the P51 still had excess power at a particular altitude and speed it would be able to 'spool up' its engine faster than the 262.

Aaron_GT
07-08-2005, 04:05 PM
I believe jets accelerating at low speeds getting beat by props, but as you get closer to a prop planes max speed, the acceleration drops off pretty fast. In this range, a jets acceleration shoud be much better than a prop planes

Prop efficiency drops off as speed increases, so it is possible to imagine that in a high speed dive the P51s prop would have to be adjusted so as not to overrev it, whereas the 262s jets would still be relatively efficient, so even if the drag/mass was the same for each plane at high speed the 262 might have some capacity for acceleration.

lbhskier37
07-08-2005, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I believe jets accelerating at low speeds getting beat by props, but as you get closer to a prop planes max speed, the acceleration drops off pretty fast. In this range, a jets acceleration shoud be much better than a prop planes

Prop efficiency drops off as speed increases, so it is possible to imagine that in a high speed dive the P51s prop would have to be adjusted so as not to overrev it, whereas the 262s jets would still be relatively efficient, so even if the drag/mass was the same for each plane at high speed the 262 might have some capacity for acceleration. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would be willing to bet the 262 and other jets of the time had much better mass/drag ratios than prop planes. You dont have a big prop on the front, no cooling radiators, etc.

Slickun
07-08-2005, 04:59 PM
Well, P-51's drag was pretty low.

There IS an envelope that the P-51, or other fast props, would have a chance.

That said, again, IMHO the Schwalbe was the best fighter in WW2.

hobnail
07-08-2005, 05:36 PM
The 262 would be very aerodynamic if it wasn't for the HONKING BIG engine pods under each wing, spoiling its profile. I am not surprised that in a dive the Mustang can catch up.

NorrisMcWhirter
07-08-2005, 06:45 PM
Everyone is assuming that the P51 started off with an advantage over the 262. It's quite possible that it didn't.

Perhaps the developer should do some tests rather than people with their own agendas to fulfill?

Ta,
Norris

darkhorizon11
07-08-2005, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Actually from what I read that was the only way a P-51 could catch a 262.... in a dive... believe it or not...

Initially yes. In a prolonged dive though? Just compare the shape of a 262 to a Mustang... much more aerodynamic, plus the swept wings of the 262 are far more favorable than the straight winged Mustang in the high speed regime. I mean I always thought diving wass what the Germans relied on to get away...

JG7_Rall
07-08-2005, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
Everyone is assuming that the P51 started off with an advantage over the 262. It's quite possible that it didn't.

Perhaps the developer should do some tests rather than people with their own agendas to fulfill?

Ta,
Norris


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

LStarosta
07-08-2005, 07:47 PM
I'm an Me-262 Ace.

FritzGryphon
07-08-2005, 09:48 PM
Tested P51MkIII vs Me-262 in 45 degree dive.

Crimea, noon. 2000m to deck. 110% power (P51 only) and 100% fuel. 300km/h TAS start speed.

Recorded speed every 5 seconds.

Me262 / P51

5s: 449 / 449
10s: 602 / 590
15s: 746 / 710
18s/19s: 830 / 790

Initially the dive is similar, but the Me-262 accelerates better throughout the 450+ range, especially at high speed. Throughout the dive, Me-262 accelerates average of 2.22 m/s2 better, or about 5%.

However, it does show that, in a shallower dive at lower speeds, a P-51 with a small inital energy advantage, maybe 50km/h or so, or a few hundred meters, could catch the Me-262. At least, close enough to shoot.

In the game. I've got no idea about real life. Though, I'd be surprised if a prop plane could out-accelerate a jet in any regime, least of all dive.

Fehler
07-08-2005, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Hobnail:
The 262 would be very aerodynamic if it wasn't for the HONKING BIG engine pods under each wing, spoiling its profile..

Actually, this was one of the most ingenius ideas for the plane. Guess how long it took to completly replace an engine... Less than 60 minutes! Try that in any prop plane and you are looking at hours.

The 262 was a very clean design. However, early jet engines were very inefficient. I dont find it at all surprising that a P-51, P-47, or any other fairly well diving plane could stay with the 262 in a dive for quite a long time; until the prop stopped making thrust, that is. Then it would be "See ya Sally!" away goes the Schwalbe!

MoeLarryCheese
07-09-2005, 04:14 PM
A point of intrest is the new Me-262s being
built by the stormbird project.
Powered by GE J-85s thay are 60% more powerful
but are limited to no more level speed
than a stock Me-262.

Why?

Very simple. The wings are the old style
non laminar flow type, while looking like
a modern design they were just a swept version
ov a 1930's high performance fighter's wing.

The Me-262 flew VERY close to it's maximum
performance envelope in level flight.

I seriously doubt a stock P-51 could out run
a well flown Me-262 in any attitude. But the
max speed where the airframe would take no more
was likely very close. Thus in a dive they
would have been close.

In level flight the Me would easily out run, and when near the top speed of the P-51, easily
out accelerate it.

For a practical comparison, jets don't loose
their thrust as speed increases (yes, some do, some don't).
Prop planes make maximum thrust at or near
stationary (zero air speed).
As speed increases thrust drops as the prop
changes pitch. Just like a car in top gear
you loose thrust.

To sum it up, a smart Me pilot would stay near
the top sustainable speed in a hostile combat
situation and avoid diving or climbing against
Allied planes, especially P-51s and P-47s.

By the way, the P-80 was faster, had a better rate of climb
and a higher terminal airspeed than the Me-262.
The reason was primarily a much thinner laminar
wing and a tad more power to weight.

I don't know who could turn tighter, but my
money would be on the P-80.

MLC

VW-IceFire
07-09-2005, 10:31 PM
As I understand it, the P-51, although extremely fast in dive due to very clean aerodynamics and flow over the wings, will still be held back by the break that is a propeller. Meanwhile, the Me262, which is also very clean, has no propeller and should be better.

Yes?

lbhskier37
07-10-2005, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
As I understand it, the P-51, although extremely fast in dive due to very clean aerodynamics and flow over the wings, will still be held back by the break that is a propeller. Meanwhile, the Me262, which is also very clean, has no propeller and should be better.

Yes?

Thats what I am thinking, it should also be true for the P-80 and other jets.