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XyZspineZyX
06-10-2003, 04:39 PM
Hi!

Well, I don't know how many threads we had recently, and some of you are probably annoyed because I started another one. But I started this project a few days ago and just didn't want it to rot on my hard drive. I don't care if Oleg doesn't care, maybe some of you find this interesting. I initally wanted to show a cockpit view with corrected head position an refraction considered, but this seems to be beyond my skills. It is definatly beyond my will to do work that doesn't change a thing. So I'll stop where I am now.

So, what is with the head position? My first findigs were:
1. The graphical head position doesn't correspond to the actual head postion.
2. The head position of in relation to the 3D-model of the plane is in an different place, than the head position in relation to the cockpit. (Both from in cockpit perpective.)
3. This means that the entire cockpit is in the wrong place.

How did I get this?

Longitude:

inside, 90‚? right.

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/FW190/sideview.jpg


puts the pilot into this level:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/FW190/pilotlineoutside.jpg


Level:

Aiming over one wingtip:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/FW190/overwing.jpg


Aiming again, this time from the outside:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/FW190/overwingoutside.jpg


Eventually this leads to this eye position:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/FW190/outsideeyeposition.jpg


Now what's with the inside? I hope you are all familiar with basic optics, if not, look at this.

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/FW190/intro.jpg


So I had a Pe-8 flying 200 meters in front of me and a ruler in my hand, which leads to this:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/FW190/math.jpg


As written, these 54.7 cm only apply to my screen, in zoom view and are the distance between my very own eye and my very own computer monitor, if I want to see the virtual IL-2 world at correct size.
With the same math you can now find out the distance of every object if you know how big it is. The FW 190 gunsight has a width of 60mm.

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/FW190/sightdistance.jpg


Now what, I am 41.5 cm behind the sight? This puts my head into this position:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/FW190/insideeyeposition.jpg


??? Totally different and imho wrong.

So far, so good. I just want to mention that with the distance gunsight-eye lowered by 15 cm and refraction considered, the distance gunsight center -> lower rim upper edge would grow by 150% (to 250%), 100 of which are due to refraction, 50 are due to reduced distance. I addition, as long as you don't have MG 131's in front of you, your view still wouldn't be blocked by the nose, because 4cm@50cm make only 4.6‚?, less than the 5.5‚? nose-decline.

If you don't understand how I drew these conclusion, it doesn't matter. Thrust me, I know what I am talking about.

If you don't believe me, I don't care. I wouldn't argue about exact numbers, but the dimension is correct. Believe it or not, it's up to you.

For me, that's it.

XyZspineZyX
06-10-2003, 04:39 PM
Hi!

Well, I don't know how many threads we had recently, and some of you are probably annoyed because I started another one. But I started this project a few days ago and just didn't want it to rot on my hard drive. I don't care if Oleg doesn't care, maybe some of you find this interesting. I initally wanted to show a cockpit view with corrected head position an refraction considered, but this seems to be beyond my skills. It is definatly beyond my will to do work that doesn't change a thing. So I'll stop where I am now.

So, what is with the head position? My first findigs were:
1. The graphical head position doesn't correspond to the actual head postion.
2. The head position of in relation to the 3D-model of the plane is in an different place, than the head position in relation to the cockpit. (Both from in cockpit perpective.)
3. This means that the entire cockpit is in the wrong place.

How did I get this?

Longitude:

inside, 90‚? right.

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/FW190/sideview.jpg


puts the pilot into this level:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/FW190/pilotlineoutside.jpg


Level:

Aiming over one wingtip:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/FW190/overwing.jpg


Aiming again, this time from the outside:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/FW190/overwingoutside.jpg


Eventually this leads to this eye position:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/FW190/outsideeyeposition.jpg


Now what's with the inside? I hope you are all familiar with basic optics, if not, look at this.

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/FW190/intro.jpg


So I had a Pe-8 flying 200 meters in front of me and a ruler in my hand, which leads to this:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/FW190/math.jpg


As written, these 54.7 cm only apply to my screen, in zoom view and are the distance between my very own eye and my very own computer monitor, if I want to see the virtual IL-2 world at correct size.
With the same math you can now find out the distance of every object if you know how big it is. The FW 190 gunsight has a width of 60mm.

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/FW190/sightdistance.jpg


Now what, I am 41.5 cm behind the sight? This puts my head into this position:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/FW190/insideeyeposition.jpg


??? Totally different and imho wrong.

So far, so good. I just want to mention that with the distance gunsight-eye lowered by 15 cm and refraction considered, the distance gunsight center -> lower rim upper edge would grow by 150% (to 250%), 100 of which are due to refraction, 50 are due to reduced distance. I addition, as long as you don't have MG 131's in front of you, your view still wouldn't be blocked by the nose, because 4cm@50cm make only 4.6‚?, less than the 5.5‚? nose-decline.

If you don't understand how I drew these conclusion, it doesn't matter. Thrust me, I know what I am talking about.

If you don't believe me, I don't care. I wouldn't argue about exact numbers, but the dimension is correct. Believe it or not, it's up to you.

For me, that's it.

XyZspineZyX
06-10-2003, 04:42 PM
Upload errors!!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif


<hr>

<p align=center style="width:100%;filter:glow[color=#33CCFF,strength=2)">

<img src=http://mitglied.lycos.de/eldur190d9/bilder/willey110.jpg border=0 alt="Hier geht's zur I/JG78"> (http://www.jg78.de)

&lt;script>var specwin=window;function openspecs(){specwin=window.open("http://mitglied.lycos.de/eldur190d9/specs.htm", "specs", "hotkeys=0,width=640,height=480,left=64,top=64,scro llbars=yes");}</script>Die olle Rechenkiste vom noch olleren Willey (java_script: openspecs[))

<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">Seit &lt;script>var eventdate=new Date("March 20, 2003 00:00:00 GMT");d=new Date();count=Math.floor((eventdate.getTime()-d.getTime())/1000);count=Math.floor(count/(60*60*-24));document.write(count);</script> Tagen<sup>*</sup> gibts Il-2 Sturmovik: Forgotten Battles. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
BTW: In &lt;script>var eventdate=new Date("June 14, 2003 00:00:00 GMT");d=new Date();count=Math.floor((eventdate.getTime()-d.getTime())/1000);count=Math.floor(count/(60*60*24));document.write(count);</script> Tag(en) gibt's das n√¬§chste Development Update von Oleg Maddox, wenn alles schiefl√¬§uft /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<font size="1"><sup>*</sup> In Europa . In den USA gabs FB schon 16 Tage vorher am 4.3. Link (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkyee)</font></font></p>&lt;script>c0="#000000";c1="#400000";c2="#000040";c3="#000050";c4="#000060";c5="#000070";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-3].bgColor=c1;a[a.length-4].bgColor=c2;if(a[a.length-5].innerHTML.indexOf("User Options")!=-1){a[a.length-5].bgColor=c3;a[a.length-6].bgColor=c0;a[a.length-7].bgColor=c1;a[a.length-8].bgColor=c4;a[a.length-9].bgColor=c5;}else{a[a.length-5].bgColor=c0;a[a.length-6].bgColor=c1;a[a.length-7].bgColor=c4;a[a.length-8].bgColor=c5;};image="http://mitglied.lycos.de/eldur190d9/bilder/bar1.jpg";oa=a[a.length-2].style;oa.backgroundImage="url("+image+")";oa.backgroundPosition="left center";oa.backgroundRepeat="no-repeat";var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src="http://mitglied.lycos.de/eldur190d9/bilder/transparent36.gif";o.height=36;o.width=36;a=document.all.tags["td");for[i=0;i<a.length;i++)if[a[i].innerHTML.indexOf["Willey")!=-1)ii=i;a[ii+2].innerHTML="Focke-Wulf Testpilot";</script><font color=000040>

XyZspineZyX
06-10-2003, 04:47 PM
yeah, same here, cant see the pics, only part of em or not at all http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif( can u make those same calculations with pictures from other planes too, like La:s ?

good point of view u got here

XyZspineZyX
06-10-2003, 04:52 PM
Interesting, but the last picture is broken. What is your conclusion?

--
<font size=-2>A little known fact to most WW2 historians, the Luftwaffe selected only midgets and dwarves to fly the Fw 190. This practice put the little people to good use while also serving the despicable "final solution" of eliminating undesirable persons through combat losses. Thanks to proprietary historical documents (which cannot be revealed to the public) Forgotten Battles is the ONLY flight sim to model this historic detail.</font>

XyZspineZyX
06-10-2003, 04:53 PM
Willey wrote:
- Upload errors!!!

This must be a conspiracy!

XyZspineZyX
06-10-2003, 05:21 PM
I can see all the pictures, and it looks interesting.

We all knew that the head was too far behind since gunsight looks so small, but I'm not sure about the exact vertical coortinate.

Good post.

XyZspineZyX
06-10-2003, 05:43 PM
you migzt find things like that for many aircrafts. the fw190 is observed very well /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

---------------------------------------



under 30k?

Thera
06-10-2003, 05:50 PM
The exterior model is simply a representation. It doesn't reflect the interior model. They're modelled totally seperate.

Try your "technique" with every other airplane in this game and you'll see the same differences. So what? If you're going to attemp a "head in wrong place" argument you need to do it using only the interior model as the quide, period.

EDIT: In my opinion. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



Message Edited on 06/10/0312:55PM by Thera

XyZspineZyX
06-10-2003, 07:22 PM
Strafnaya wrote:
- yeah, same here, cant see the pics, only part of em
- or not at all /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif ( can u make those same calculations
- with pictures from other planes too, like La:s ?


I have done this with an La-5FN, too. This cockpit also is a bit wrong, but this time it favours vision.

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/pp.jpg


It's the same in the Yak 9 series, the vison is to good. I lost that picture somewhere.




Message Edited on 06/10/0307:36PM by JtD

XyZspineZyX
06-10-2003, 07:28 PM
NuFoerki wrote:
- you migzt find things like that for many aircrafts.
- the fw190 is observed very well

Actually you will find this for every aircraft, but the FW 190 is the only one (I found), where one head position is worse than it should be, while one is just as good as historically correct.

Other planes feature a head position that is just as good as it should be, while the other is definatly better.

XyZspineZyX
06-10-2003, 07:43 PM
Thera wrote:
- The exterior model is simply a representation. It
- doesn't reflect the interior model. They're modelled
- totally seperate.

??? Are you talking about the pilots head position? If so: I already know. This is not about the exterior reprensentation. I only used the exteriorer view to represent my findings.

- Try your "technique" with every other airplane in
- this game and you'll see the same differences.

I found different differences.

- So
- what? If you're going to attemp a "head in wrong
- place" argument you need to do it using only the
- interior model as the quide, period.

And this is exactly what I did. Everybody can see where the pilots head is in the external view. But I found out where it is from the inside

a) relative to the cockpit
b) relative to the 3-D model (inside as well)

Sadly it was neccessary to make both approaches, because the cockpit position always seems to be wrong.

Thera
06-10-2003, 09:12 PM
Which F1 view are you using for the La? The near or far?

"Sadly it was neccessary to make both approaches, because the cockpit position always seems to be wrong."

The exterior view doesn't matter at all actually. The pilots head could be pointing out the exhaust manifold for all that it matters. If you're concerned with interior vision then you need to only use that as the benchmark. The exterior model is totally unrelated technically.

Message Edited on 06/10/0304:18PM by Thera

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 01:32 AM
looking nice with that La ‚¬īpit‚¬ī only bout 10cm higher (4") pilots eye position..

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 01:47 AM
Thera wrote:
- Which F1 view are you using for the La? The near or
- far?

I always used the gunsight view, shift-F1. Should be the one closer to the sight.

- "Sadly it was neccessary to make both approaches,
- because the cockpit position always seems to be
- wrong."
-
- The exterior view doesn't matter at all actually.
- The pilots head could be pointing out the exhaust
- manifold for all that it matters.

Yes, I know. But my point is: If you sit IN the cockpit and look right and find the elevator to be right beside you, the implemented cockpit is in the wrong place. This is comparism with 3-D model. (This matters for visibility over the nose or visibility over the wings.)
And second, if you look right and find the side of the gunsight blocking your view, the in cockpit-perspective is wrong. This is comparism to cockpit. (This matters for visibility over lower rims of windshields.)
I put both in the external model just for presentation. I could very well use a 1/48 scale FW 190 model to show the spots but this isn't good for the internet. You could also remove the pilots head from my external pictures and it still wouldn't change anything.

- If you're
- concerned with interior vision then you need to only
- use that as the benchmark.

And that is what I did.

- The exterior model is
- totally unrelated technically.

I still know this. I somehow get the feeling that we miss each others point. Maybe I'll do another picture later once I am fed up with my paper.

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 01:51 AM
JtD wrote:

- So, what is with the head position? My first findigs
- were:
- 1. The graphical head position doesn't correspond to
- the actual head postion.
- 2. The head position of in relation to the 3D-model
- of the plane is in an different place, than the head
- position in relation to the cockpit. (Both from in
- cockpit perpective.)
- 3. This means that the entire cockpit is in the
- wrong place.
-
- -
-
-
-
-


This I will agree with, but half way only:

The cockpit is not in the wrong place, but the graphical representation of the pilot's head is too close to the instrument panel in the graphic shown in-game. That really doesn't bother me- that the pilot's head is too close, but the panel and gunsight look just about right, and dead on, compared to actual pics of combat FW 190s, with the exception that I think the canopy bracing struts MAY be a cm. too wide or so in FB.

If you look at photos of a real '190, the head rest is far behind the instrument panel. Very far. The pilot's head doesn't rest on it, you'll say. OK, fair enough, but the pilot also didn't double over. But consider the whole 'pit: you have to fit in it, and the control stick must move 360*. Some of the pics being posted by folks here ignore that, IMNSHO. Consider some of the "proof the 'pit is wrong" pics, that show the cotrol column quite close to the instrument panel...if the control column was really in it's nuetral position in those pics (Which it isn't- every pic I've seen- 3 different ones- of the '190's 'pit show the stick near the panel, and close to the rudder pedals, which also accounts for the bogus 'midget' theory, in part, to my mind) how would you nose down?? By putting the stick into the instrument panel?? No. In my experience with aircraft (University), the stick could be forward for many reasons besides it is in a nuetral position. Do not assume the stick goes to center like a sim joystick when the systems are off. The stick is probably there for a combination of reasons- no engine power to supply hydraulic pressure (I am not 100% certain the 190 had boost for control surfaces, I'm not technically expert on it's systems, this is a for- instance), and the pilot shoved it forward and to one side to exit the aircraft! Similarly, the pilot's head would have to be relatively far away from the panel, so he could pull the stick back without his body being in the way. It's also assumed that, in the pics that are being used as "proof" that the aircraft must have a control stick that stands straight up and down- but the pics are on the ground, and the plane is a tail dragger- the stick wouldn't stand up perpendicular to the ground anyway, even if the floor of the plane were 90* to the ground. It's also very within the realm of possibility that the stick did not stand up perpendicular to level in flight- the stick could easily have been angled, for ease of use, (ergonomics for the pilot), and ease of entry/exit from the cockpit. The '190 was sophisticated for it's time. I cannot say for certain whether the stick was angled back slightly at a nuetral position, having never flown one, but from an engineering standpoint, there is no reason it couldn't have been, so I must consider the possibility it was.

I get sucked into these discussions because I love the planes. I don't think talking about it is wrong, but maybe we shouldn't talk about it in ORR anymore...which I'm guilty of, too.




Message Edited on 06/11/03‚ 01:54AM by BBB462cid

Message Edited on 06/11/0301:57AM by BBB462cid

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 10:51 AM
IF the La-5FN exterior model looked like it should from internal eye position, it would look like this.
(in other words: this is the plane you fly as long as you use internal views)

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/ww.jpg


(If the cockpit was modelled at the right size.)



Message Edited on 06/11/0311:40AM by JtD

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 10:54 AM
Thera wrote:
- The exterior model is simply a representation. It
- doesn't reflect the interior model. They're modelled
- totally seperate.
-
- Try your "technique" with every other airplane in
- this game and you'll see the same differences. So
- what? If you're going to attemp a "head in wrong
- place" argument you need to do it using only the
- interior model as the quide, period.

I agree the exteriors doesn't look representative. Look at the I153 for instance. I wonder how the pilot can see anything at all in the forward direction. (well not that you see much in a I153 anyway).

Nic


http://nicolas10.freeservers.com/images/et.jpg


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XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 02:03 PM
@JtD: I think it would be easier to understand if you take the pilots position relative to the aircraft and than show where the cockpit/gunsight is (should be) relative to this pilot position. (like showed with the La5)


has someone an idea how to check the orientation of the cockpit? Maybe with the MG bullets?
I think the whole 190 cockpit is slightly rotated upwards (thats why the bar is in the gunsight)


quiet_man

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 02:14 PM
I already posted and would like to repeat.
PLEASE don't use as a refrence external model of the plane with the pilot position inside. In some planes positions of pilots don't correspond top real things at 100%. It is done especially that to avoid cross positions with the movements of the head. Such simple things...
However inside the cockpits they are true. Cockpits are other models and for them we spend sometime more polygons in development than for the plane + pilot itself....
Take it please in account and don't spend you time for nothing please if you do not read my answers in the past.

Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 02:55 PM
This is the corrected cockpit and headposition as is for the FW 190. Doesn't look as spectacular as the La-5FN.

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/ff.jpg


(Again: Only if the cockpit is modelled at the correct size.)

I really doubt the FW 190 cockpit is incline to the front. If anything, this would be down to wheter or not it had a nose down attitude in flight. I don't have clue about that other than some folks saying it had, others saying it hadn't.

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 03:02 PM
Oleg_Maddox wrote:
- I already posted and would like to repeat.
- PLEASE don't use as a refrence external model of the
- plane with the pilot position inside.

I'd like to repeat: I didn't. I used the external model for presentation only.

- However inside the cockpits they are true. Cockpits
- are other models and for them we spend sometime more
- polygons in development than for the plane + pilot
- itself....

Which is something I am totally aware of. Still, I don't think the pilots eye was 41.5 cm behind the gunsight in the FW 190. 25 to 30 cm suits better.

- Take it please in account and don't spend you time
- for nothing please if you do not read my answers in
- the past.
-
- Oleg Maddox
- 1C:Maddox Games

I read your answers. Don't worry about me. I didn't spend my time for nothing, I was looking for my opinion.

Anyway, thank you for replying. And get well soon!

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 03:51 PM
I know Oleg fully understands what you are talking about JtD.

I'm very surprised he would brush it aside so easily. Perhaps he meant to model it this way.

XyZspineZyX
06-11-2003, 04:33 PM
James_Gang wrote:
- I know Oleg fully understands what you are talking
- about JtD.

How do you know?

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 10:37 PM
it would be nice if all cockpits would show the historical view

bumb

quiet_man

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 06:41 PM
hi,
nice to here from You..
totally agree to this...

+ I'm looking forward to the future fixed FW pilots view +gunsight view..

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 06:48 PM
????? Does somebody know something that I don't about a future fix here on the FW view?????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????