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Freiwillige
08-12-2009, 08:45 AM
You have to see this, If they did it was quite a job to do!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...feature=channel_page (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMjhihuuX8&feature=channel_page)

megalopsuche
08-12-2009, 09:08 AM
Any reason you can't explain further than just posting a YouTube link?

SeaFireLIV
08-12-2009, 09:12 AM
I`ve been flying in an Online campaign in the Spitfire and been having serious trouble outturning 109s. I know what i`m doing too, but I have to turn on the total teetering edge of a stall, trimming, with flaps down before the 109 guy behind me falls off. The 109 sticks on my six in quite a long SUSTAINED TURN because he`s on heavy flaps as well.

I always though this was wrong.

As far as I knew 109 pilots hardly ever used flaps in combat..

megalopsuche
08-12-2009, 09:16 AM
Using flaps in a Spitfire is wrong. It decreases your turn rate.

Edit

Unless you're in a flat scissors fight trying to force an overshoot, or landing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Freiwillige
08-12-2009, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by megalopsuche:
Any reason you can't explain further than just posting a YouTube link?

I thought I did with this
"You have to see this, If they did it was quite a job to do!"

Basically it takes quite allot of cranks on the wheel for even 10 degrees of flap. Makes sense because fighting wind resistance means the gearing would have to be quit low.

So to be turning and burning fighting G forces concentrating on your target and taking your hands off the throttle for 15 seconds to crank down some flaps....I don't think so.

RegRag1977
08-12-2009, 09:27 AM
Well it doesn't look difficult at all...Or am i missing something?

Thanks for the link anyway! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Is there a similar video showing how the elevator trim works?

Hannibales
08-12-2009, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by RegRag1977:
Is there a similar video showing how the elevator trim works?

It's the parallel wheel to the one being used in the video, hence you can use them both at the same time to trim out the a/c as you lower/raise the flaps, quite a clever, if very dated, bit of technology!

If you mean how it works on the elevator then I can't remember if it's an anti-balance or balance tab. No doubt someone in the know will post!

SeaFireLIV
08-12-2009, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by megalopsuche:
Using flaps in a Spitfire is wrong. It decreases your turn rate.



http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

That`s what I have to do to beat a 109 in a turn! And it may be wrong but it works, so what`s more wrong? The Spit that has to use flaps to maintain a sustained turn to shake off a 109 or the 109 that uses flaps and keeps in a sustained turn with it?

By the way I use a controlled flaps, not ya base `combat` then `full` flaps of course, so I can still maintain a good turn rate.

MD_Titus
08-12-2009, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by RegRag1977:
Well it doesn't look difficult at all...Or am i missing something?
Thanks for the link anyway! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Is there a similar video showing how the elevator trim works?
the sheer amount of time to drop flaps to "combat" that simply can't be replicated with a single button press. even having combat - take off - landing settings would seem generous.

interesting though, didn't know that was how they operated.

Kettenhunde
08-12-2009, 01:32 PM
Basically it takes quite allot of cranks on the wheel for even 10 degrees of flap.

IIRC, It is four turns on the wheel to move through the entire range of motion for the flaps on a Bf-109.

~1/4 turn will get you ~10 degrees.

All the best,

Crumpp

JZG_Thiem
08-12-2009, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I`ve been flying in an Online campaign in the Spitfire and been having serious trouble outturning 109s. I know what i`m doing too, but I have to turn on the total teetering edge of a stall, trimming, with flaps down before the 109 guy behind me falls off. The 109 sticks on my six in quite a long SUSTAINED TURN because he`s on heavy flaps as well.

I always though this was wrong.

As far as I knew 109 pilots hardly ever used flaps in combat..

Thats not a sustained turn. Thats an inward spiral with your plane slowing down all the time up to the point where -with the flaps dropped and their awesome drag- you finally will indeed end with a kind of sustained turn at the end. A turn that thight, with such a bad turn-rate and airspeed as your dropped flaps allow.

A Spit MkIX (in game) can sustain a 3g+ turn without flaps at speeds from 300-450km/h.
With full flaps its <2g at 240-270km/h.

You are fighting in a stalling contest, while you think you are in a turning contest.

SeaFireLIV
08-12-2009, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by JZG_Thiem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I`ve been flying in an Online campaign in the Spitfire and been having serious trouble outturning 109s. I know what i`m doing too, but I have to turn on the total teetering edge of a stall, trimming, with flaps down before the 109 guy behind me falls off. The 109 sticks on my six in quite a long SUSTAINED TURN because he`s on heavy flaps as well.

I always though this was wrong.

As far as I knew 109 pilots hardly ever used flaps in combat..

Thats not a sustained turn. Thats an inward spiral with your plane slowing down all the time up to the point where -with the flaps dropped and their awesome drag- you finally will indeed end with a kind of sustained turn at the end. A turn that thight, with such a bad turn-rate and airspeed as your dropped flaps allow.

A Spit MkIX (in game) can sustain a 3g+ turn without flaps at speeds from 300-450km/h.
With full flaps its <2g at 240-270km/h.

You are fighting in a stalling contest, while you think you are in a turning contest. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fine, but I never ever get to the ground and the trimming helps keep me up. Did I mention I control my flaps as well? I don`t just drop `em and leave them. Nevermind.
The point is, HE (in the 109) should stall way before I do, not be able to keep at it until I nearly stall out myself.

megalopsuche
08-12-2009, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JZG_Thiem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I`ve been flying in an Online campaign in the Spitfire and been having serious trouble outturning 109s. I know what i`m doing too, but I have to turn on the total teetering edge of a stall, trimming, with flaps down before the 109 guy behind me falls off. The 109 sticks on my six in quite a long SUSTAINED TURN because he`s on heavy flaps as well.

I always though this was wrong.

As far as I knew 109 pilots hardly ever used flaps in combat..

Thats not a sustained turn. Thats an inward spiral with your plane slowing down all the time up to the point where -with the flaps dropped and their awesome drag- you finally will indeed end with a kind of sustained turn at the end. A turn that thight, with such a bad turn-rate and airspeed as your dropped flaps allow.

A Spit MkIX (in game) can sustain a 3g+ turn without flaps at speeds from 300-450km/h.
With full flaps its <2g at 240-270km/h.

You are fighting in a stalling contest, while you think you are in a turning contest. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fine, but I never ever get to the ground and the trimming helps keep me up. Did I mention I control my flaps as well? I don`t just drop `em and leave them. Nevermind.
The point is, HE (in the 109) should stall way before I do, not be able to keep at it until I nearly stall out myself. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really. Comparable Spits and 109s have similar stall speeds. The Spitfire has a turn-rate advantage, not a radius advantage. That's why you should never be dropping flaps in the Spit if you're trying to out-turn a 109, otherwise you bleed way too much energy. There aren't too many aircraft that drastically degrade their performance with flaps, but the Spitfire is one that does.

SeaFireLIV
08-12-2009, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by megalopsuche:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JZG_Thiem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I`ve been flying in an Online campaign in the Spitfire and been having serious trouble outturning 109s. I know what i`m doing too, but I have to turn on the total teetering edge of a stall, trimming, with flaps down before the 109 guy behind me falls off. The 109 sticks on my six in quite a long SUSTAINED TURN because he`s on heavy flaps as well.

I always though this was wrong.

As far as I knew 109 pilots hardly ever used flaps in combat..

Thats not a sustained turn. Thats an inward spiral with your plane slowing down all the time up to the point where -with the flaps dropped and their awesome drag- you finally will indeed end with a kind of sustained turn at the end. A turn that thight, with such a bad turn-rate and airspeed as your dropped flaps allow.

A Spit MkIX (in game) can sustain a 3g+ turn without flaps at speeds from 300-450km/h.
With full flaps its <2g at 240-270km/h.

You are fighting in a stalling contest, while you think you are in a turning contest. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fine, but I never ever get to the ground and the trimming helps keep me up. Did I mention I control my flaps as well? I don`t just drop `em and leave them. Nevermind.
The point is, HE (in the 109) should stall way before I do, not be able to keep at it until I nearly stall out myself. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really. Comparable Spits and 109s have similar stall speeds. The Spitfire has a turn-rate advantage, not a radius advantage. That's why you should never be dropping flaps in the Spit if you're trying to out-turn a 109, otherwise you bleed way too much energy. There aren't too many aircraft that drastically degrade their performance with flaps, but the Spitfire is one that does. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you`re telling me after 5 years of fighting 109s in Spits in IL2 with an online squadron, and in a Online wars, I`ve been doing it wrong?

Well, I`ll hold judgement on your words and test because I do pretty well in my flying in general.

JZG_Thiem
08-12-2009, 03:33 PM
You have to keep one thing in mind, especially when hes on your 6 (aka attacking you) and not vice versa:

For about 90deg (maybe more, depending on pilot quality, both pilots) he will turn better. The 109 has a better initial turn than the Spit. He will maybe give up speed and advantage, but he got those few seconds to aim at you.
After that he will not be able to pull enough lead anymore, unless you drop your speed.
You may see his nose behind you, but he wont be able to shoot.

If you want to compare plane performance in a turning contest, it makes a huge difference on "whos chasing who". The positional advantage is worth a helluva lot of performance advantage....for some time.

You may also consider that -most probably- the 109 saddled up on you with excess speed/alt, or how can a 109 get behind a Spit?
If so, hes got some energy/speed to trade in an inward spiral non-sustained turn. your advantage in sustained turns doensnt play much of a role until you are co-E in that turn.

Maybe you even should ask yourself "how did that 109 pop up behind me" rather than "why couldnt i turn away." http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Waldo.Pepper
08-12-2009, 03:53 PM
If anyone is interested in hearing what a real Luftwaffe pilot's opinion on the use of flaps in combat with the 109 - hear the words of Franz Steigler.

Q. "Did you every use flaps only for take off and landing, or did you use them during combat as well for tighter turns?"

A. "Not in combat, no…no, never…only for take-off and landing."

From the interview of him here ...

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/...igler/stigler_p6.htm (http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/articles/pilots/stigler/stigler_p6.htm)

SeaFireLIV
08-12-2009, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by JZG_Thiem:


Maybe you even should ask yourself "how did that 109 pop up behind me" rather than "why couldnt i turn away." http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And maybe you should consider yourself as one of 6 spitfires approaching 12 Stukas with 8 or more 109s over the top in an online BOB. All Human and you have to stop the Stukas rather than coming out with dumb talk.

But you Axis guys wouldn`t know that because you`d ignore any orders to come low and instead fly in the stratosphere failing your mission objective.

Of course, this is the Luftwaffe `blue` flyer who will automatically try and talk down to the Spitfire flyer. You are already so biased it`s pointless even expecting a fair answer.

Waldo pepper explains, it, but oh no, you Axis flyers would rather tell me not to let a 109 on my 6 rather than admit that 109s should not be using their flaps in combat.

K_Freddie
08-12-2009, 04:20 PM
Waldo.. the general Axis tactic was BnZ which worked well, so Stiegler wouldn't have used flaps.
I would say that this tactic is sensible when you have many a/c about, but when it decends to one-on-one, the flaps tactic is advisable http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

My 'old timers has kicked in' - I read an excerp from a Luftwaffe ME109 pilot that was in a 1-vs-1 with a spit. I thiink it was early war, but the story is..



We twisted and turned, each getting a shot in but with no hits. Soon we were at sea level, flying just above stall speed (I cannot remember if they used flaps here - but would think so), and we weaved around each other, but no one could get the advantage.
And here's the funny part


This went on for a long time, then when the spitfire was slightly above me, it banked hard, and I could see the pilot clearly, smiling at me and waving goodbye as he flew towards England.. I could never understand the British, to make a joke at such a time when we were trying to kill each other. I flew back to base...

This is the general story, and quiet 'amusing'
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

megalopsuche
08-12-2009, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by megalopsuche:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JZG_Thiem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I`ve been flying in an Online campaign in the Spitfire and been having serious trouble outturning 109s. I know what i`m doing too, but I have to turn on the total teetering edge of a stall, trimming, with flaps down before the 109 guy behind me falls off. The 109 sticks on my six in quite a long SUSTAINED TURN because he`s on heavy flaps as well.

I always though this was wrong.

As far as I knew 109 pilots hardly ever used flaps in combat..

Thats not a sustained turn. Thats an inward spiral with your plane slowing down all the time up to the point where -with the flaps dropped and their awesome drag- you finally will indeed end with a kind of sustained turn at the end. A turn that thight, with such a bad turn-rate and airspeed as your dropped flaps allow.

A Spit MkIX (in game) can sustain a 3g+ turn without flaps at speeds from 300-450km/h.
With full flaps its <2g at 240-270km/h.

You are fighting in a stalling contest, while you think you are in a turning contest. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fine, but I never ever get to the ground and the trimming helps keep me up. Did I mention I control my flaps as well? I don`t just drop `em and leave them. Nevermind.
The point is, HE (in the 109) should stall way before I do, not be able to keep at it until I nearly stall out myself. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really. Comparable Spits and 109s have similar stall speeds. The Spitfire has a turn-rate advantage, not a radius advantage. That's why you should never be dropping flaps in the Spit if you're trying to out-turn a 109, otherwise you bleed way too much energy. There aren't too many aircraft that drastically degrade their performance with flaps, but the Spitfire is one that does. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you`re telling me after 5 years of fighting 109s in Spits in IL2 with an online squadron, and in a Online wars, I`ve been doing it wrong?

Well, I`ll hold judgement on your words and test because I do pretty well in my flying in general. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please do so.

JZG_Thiem
08-12-2009, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JZG_Thiem:


Maybe you even should ask yourself "how did that 109 pop up behind me" rather than "why couldnt i turn away." http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And maybe you should consider yourself as one of 6 spitfires approaching 12 Stukas with 8 or more 109s over the top in an online BOB. All Human and you have to stop the Stukas rather than coming out with dumb talk.

But you Axis guys wouldn`t know that because you`d ignore any orders to come low and instead fly in the stratosphere failing your mission objective.

Of course, this is the Luftwaffe `blue` flyer who will automatically try and talk down to the Spitfire flyer. You are already so biased it`s pointless even expecting a fair answer.

Waldo pepper explains, it, but oh no, you Axis flyers would rather tell me not to let a 109 on my 6 rather than admit that 109s should not be using their flaps in combat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why personal attacks? Out of reasons? Did i talk down to a Spit pilot? You claimed you cant outturn a 109 and i told you why/under what circumstances that maybe was. Is that bias? I was giving you hints. You could have tried/evaluated it, but looks like you didnt bother. Its your choice to believe me or not.

Fair answer? What kind of fair answer regarding your problem did you expect?
If you picture this Bob scenario, the answer is: yes, your at a disadvantage being the attacker. Thats why in real life also the 109 prefered to be on top covering the bombers. Thats why the P51s liked to stay above the B17s.
Do you want/expect to be able to safely come out of a disadvantaged position by plane performance alone? Then try the P80 with some Fiat as high cover.

If you only gripe is the usage of flaps in combat in game or reality, then i have some shocking news for you:
This is a game. Something like usage of flaps can not be controled according to your wishes. Deal with it!

Blue players like to stay in the stratosphere and ignore misison objectives? Whos biased now?
Go to "War Clouds" server, and you will find red guys only in stratoshpere. Theres also a bunch of Spit pilots who can teach you in less than 30mins how to deal with a 109 (dropping) on your six. They will also tell you that its in no way 100% safe. If you want to be 100% safe, then dont take off at all.

Metatron_123
08-12-2009, 05:48 PM
''In a dogfight, in particularly when attacking Allied aircraft in a Lufbery circle, Marseille would often favour dramatically reducing the throttle and even lowering the flaps to reduce speed and shorten his turn radius, rather than the standard procedure of using full throttle throughout.[37] Emil Clade said that none of the other pilots could do this effectively, preferring instead to dive on single opponents at speed so as to escape if anything went wrong. Clade said of Marseille's tactics:

Marseille developed his own special tactics, which differed significantly from the methods of most other pilots. (When attacking a Lufbery circle) he had to fly very slowly. He even took it to the point where he had to operate his landing flaps as not to fall down, because, of course he had to fly his curve (turns) more tightly than the upper defensive circle. He and his fighter were one unit, and he was in command of that aircraft like no-one else.''

Freiwillige
08-12-2009, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Basically it takes quite allot of cranks on the wheel for even 10 degrees of flap.

IIRC, It is four turns on the wheel to move through the entire range of motion for the flaps on a Bf-109.

~1/4 turn will get you ~10 degrees.

All the best,

Crumpp </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you even watch the video?

I counted 21 full turns to get the flaps all the way down to a landing configuration. And that is a real museum Bf-109. The video is from the Firepower team that does the FSX 109 add on.

Freiwillige
08-12-2009, 05:57 PM
Yes, I read one article from a guy who flew with Marseille and he was saying that Old Hans Jochim would enter into a turn fight with Spitfires and P-40s and he would pull his 109 around so hard that contrails would be coming off his wing tips!
He went on to say that Marseille could shoot with the enemy plane obscured below his cowling and still hit right where he wanted and that he could make his 109 do things that no other guy in JG-27 could do or even admit was possible.

Many Luftwaffe guy rank him as the greatest Luftwaffe pilot ace ever. For the short amount of time he flew he racked up more kills per sortie average, by a long shot than any other pilot in not only the Luftwaffe but ever and all against western pilots.

Kettenhunde
08-12-2009, 06:36 PM
Did you even watch the video?


Nope.

I did just look it up and the manual says 8 turns to 20 degrees. That means 16 turns to 40 degree landing setting and 4 turns to 10 degrees. So I did not recall correctly.


Crumpp says:
IIRC,

My information comes from the manual and a flyable BF-109F a friend owns.

I could care less about the youtube FSX junk. I have seen airplanes in museums with wood screws holding them together so I am not easily impressed just because the airplane is in a museum.

Remember, we do restorations for other museums too.

ASH_HOUSEWARES
08-12-2009, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by Freiwillige:
You have to see this, If they did it was quite a job to do!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...feature=channel_page (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMjhihuuX8&feature=channel_page)
Holly cow.. That is a lot of work! If I didn't see the wing I would sware that guy trying to open a valve on a sewage tank! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif As a mater of fact I thi.. Ahhh naaa I beter not go there! Too many 109 lovers in this forum! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kettenhunde
08-13-2009, 05:09 AM
Obviously none of you have timed flap deployment on the ground for electric or hydraulic actuation if you think that is a long time.

I think some practical experience would alter perspectives here. Spend your money on flying lessons not MP3 players and PS3 gadgets.


You need several turns to get the flaps fully down to 40 degrees and the idea is that you can crank both together.


It was a fine "pilot's airplane" and there was no big complaints about the technical side, as long as you operated it within envelope, inside the performance parameters. It is hard to find any negative things about the plane from pilot's perspective when taking the development of technology into account.


The cockpit arrangements in the plane were good


The cockpit arrangements were good, though close-fitting to a large man.


The performance and handling of the plane were excellent and all systems were in their correct place.

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/fe...e/articles/109myths/ (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/)

All the best,

Crumpp

Freiwillige
08-13-2009, 05:45 AM
The Bf-109 is easily my favorite aircraft of WWII.

My point of this post is that unlike the FW-190's push button flap system in the 109 it was manual and a bit time consuming in a fight. Luftwaffe fleigers did not use them doctrinally but maybe indevidually (Marseilles) but in General no.

Most comments I have read on the subject like the one earlier in this post is "nope not used in a fight."

Could they have? Sure! But I think that the workload would have ruled that out as uncommon not to mention that at lower speeds the 109 was a capable aircraft without them anyways.

Xiolablu3
08-13-2009, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
Obviously none of you have timed flap deployment on the ground for electric or hydraulic actuation if you think that is a long time.

I think some practical experience would alter perspectives here. Spend your money on flying lessons not MP3 players and PS3 gadgets.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> You need several turns to get the flaps fully down to 40 degrees and the idea is that you can crank both together.


It was a fine "pilot's airplane" and there was no big complaints about the technical side, as long as you operated it within envelope, inside the performance parameters. It is hard to find any negative things about the plane from pilot's perspective when taking the development of technology into account.


The cockpit arrangements in the plane were good


The cockpit arrangements were good, though close-fitting to a large man.


The performance and handling of the plane were excellent and all systems were in their correct place.

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/fe...e/articles/109myths/ (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/)

All the best,

Crumpp </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are just as many quotes saying that the cockpit was terribly cramped and that vision from it was poor. Why do you choose to believe just the positive from a Bf109 fans website?

eg. :-

" The Mustang had the best visibility, important for a fighter aircraft, the Messerschmitt the worst. The Spitfire cockpit fitted like a glove, the Messerschmitt like a strait-jacket, the Mustang like a too comfortable armchair. "

Fitting like a 'straight jacket' is obviously not good.


On the flaps discussion. I have seen many P51 pilots talk about putting down '10 degrees of flap' in combat. But I am not sure if that system was any easier to use than the Bf109's?

I'm sure a couple of turns of flap in combat would be OK on that system. Much more would be a real effort.

Freiwillige
08-13-2009, 08:00 AM
Flight journal summer 2001

"the cockpit is a bit cramped although the view out (In flight) is better than you might expect."

"The profusion of canopy struts is not a problem in addition the small cockpit makes you feel more apart of the plane."-Mark Hanna RIP

Flying the 109G-10 F-FEHD with the "Galland hood"

Gammelpreusse
08-13-2009, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
Obviously none of you have timed flap deployment on the ground for electric or hydraulic actuation if you think that is a long time.

I think some practical experience would alter perspectives here. Spend your money on flying lessons not MP3 players and PS3 gadgets.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> You need several turns to get the flaps fully down to 40 degrees and the idea is that you can crank both together.


It was a fine "pilot's airplane" and there was no big complaints about the technical side, as long as you operated it within envelope, inside the performance parameters. It is hard to find any negative things about the plane from pilot's perspective when taking the development of technology into account.


The cockpit arrangements in the plane were good


The cockpit arrangements were good, though close-fitting to a large man.


The performance and handling of the plane were excellent and all systems were in their correct place.

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/fe...e/articles/109myths/ (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/)

All the best,

Crumpp </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are just as many quotes saying that the cockpit was terribly cramped and that vision from it was poor. Why do you choose to believe just the positive from a Bf109 fans website?

eg. :-

" The Mustang had the best visibility, important for a fighter aircraft, the Messerschmitt the worst. The Spitfire cockpit fitted like a glove, the Messerschmitt like a strait-jacket, the Mustang like a too comfortable armchair. "

Fitting like a 'straight jacket' is obviously not good.


On the flaps discussion. I have seen many P51 pilots talk about putting down '10 degrees of flap' in combat. But I am not sure if that system was any easier to use than the Bf109's?

I'm sure a couple of turns of flap in combat would be OK on that system. Much more would be a real effort. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably for the same reasons you always chose those sources that show the negative sides of the 109 and believe only in the 109's shortcomings, given you only post in 109 discussions to prove how cramped it was, how bad it maneuvered and how old fashioned its design was. That is called "bias" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

megalopsuche
08-13-2009, 10:21 AM
Fwiw, Soviet pilots held the 109 in higher esteem than the 190. Some insist that this is only because 190s were frequently used for ground attack in the East, but even the 190D-9 failed to improve opinions.

Manu-6S
08-13-2009, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by megalopsuche:
Fwiw, Soviet pilots held the 109 in higher esteem than the 190. Some insist that this is only because 190s were frequently used for ground attack in the East, but even the 190D-9 failed to improve opinions.

Probably because they were used to not fly pure energy fighters... it's like if you ask the opinion of a spitlover about 109 or 190... sure he'll say he prefers the 109...

Anyway the russians didn't like Spitfires too, bud probably because were old Vb.

IIRC the russians never tested D9 with MW50.

Manu-6S
08-13-2009, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Fitting like a 'straight jacket' is obviously not good.


If was obviously not good enough for the average pilot I wonder how Alfred Grislawski scored 109 (oh, the irony!) kills in his Me109 when he was a really massive person...

Here a picture of him in his new 190...
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9506/snc00123p.jpg

Spitfire cockpit was small as the 109's one... but, don't know why, "The Spitfire cockpit fitted like a glove".

I'm not bashing you Xiola.. I only feel that this is another story like the Galland's "an outfit of Spitfires for my squadron". Myths...

PS: my first picture from my new book!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Manu-6S
08-13-2009, 11:14 AM
To remain On Topic..

Damn!! So IL2 flap system is really unrealistic! In the same way of trims on slider (I hate the guys who are using it... totally unrealistic)

No problem.. I never use them if not in takeoff/landing or in a 190 (but there they are eletric, luckly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

BillSwagger
08-13-2009, 12:01 PM
i saw something on the P-40 flaps. It involves a few more coordinated movements than turning a wheel or moving a lever.

I think any pilot could use flaps when needed in turns, it just takes some anticipation and great familiarity with your aircraft.
I saw the video, and it would be like rolling down a window in an older car.

Another thing, is the pilot in a 109 could wheel down a very minute amount of flaps to help in a turn, and if he needed more, he could wheel down more. (1 rotation = 2.5 degrees of flap).

This doesn't seem unrealistic to me considering the automated controls inside the 109s.

With this said, you cant compare tactics in a sim where we sit a desk uninhibited by death, and most of our controls are at our fingertips.
There are many controls that probably go over/under used when compared to practical uses in real life.

TS_Sancho
08-13-2009, 12:44 PM
In the game (IL2 that is) it takes about 7 seconds for full landing flaps to deploy on the BF109 series. Probably unrealistically fast but certainley not instantaneous.

You guys crack me up smashing on Crumpp. The guys one of about 3 people on this board that actually has real world experience with high performance aircraft not to mention he just happens to restore WW2 warbirds.

Ditching the Ipod and PS3 for some basic real life flight instruction is a brilliant idea. It would certainley end the wanderings of those who want to know if their education in IL2 will provide them with the skills and knowledge necessary to pilot an aircraft in real life.

Gentlemen, a little respect and credit where it is do would be nice to around here sometimes.

Freiwillige
08-13-2009, 01:44 PM
Now I was not Crump bashing, In fact I happen to like the guy! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

He has always been polite and respectful towards me as I have him and he has even taken the time on more than one occasion to explain things to me deeper on many subjects. He's always willing to answer questions although it may not be to the posters liking. So two thumbs up for Crump!

Anyways what I find odd about IL2 is people using spit flaps in a dogfight. FYI Spitfire flaps had two settings up and down! There were no combat flaps, takeoff flaps Only no flaps or landing flaps and if you have ever seen them their landing flaps are straight down creating not only extra lift but much needed drag.

muffinstomp
08-13-2009, 03:26 PM
Xiolablu3

Oh my, who will make us stay on topic if not a moderator? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
(pardon and hats off for your free efforts)

It's kind of bogus discussing flap-handling time spans when the reason for the topic might be down to nothing else but a bigger short-coming of this sim.

Flaps and trim action have been modelled way too fast (as well as had been told about roll in general), much to our dislike.

IRL I think none of us here should be out turned by slider-Joes and flapmasters.
Historically speaking there shouldn't have been many pilots pulling 142 High G Turns under constant roll input in a row.

I'm fed up too with AI dropping unhistorical notions of flap in a Spit/I-16 or doing max trim 10 G bat turns that would break a human wrist even in an eager attempt.

Still human players are in full control of their 800 bucks mega-HOTAS to decent online merits while never having learned sh*t about energy management and ductus of combat.

So please everybody, do not fall back to discussing other aspects of A/c outweighing/downsetting this and that or even calling each other fanboys who would exclusively post propaganda links. Otherwise we should consolidate this thread with the zillions existing about German master-race scientists (not being useful for any side willing to win teh war), user "XY" being demasked as noone else than tagert once more and so on and so on...

Just: Please http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Greets,
muffinstomp

stalkervision
08-13-2009, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Freiwillige:
Now I was not Crump bashing, In fact I happen to like the guy! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

He has always been polite and respectful towards me as I have him and he has even taken the time on more than one occasion to explain things to me deeper on many subjects. He's always willing to answer questions although it may not be to the posters liking. So two thumbs up for Crump!

Anyways what I find odd about IL2 is people using spit flaps in a dogfight. FYI Spitfire flaps had two settings up and down! There were no combat flaps, takeoff flaps Only no flaps or landing flaps and if you have ever seen them their landing flaps are straight down creating not only extra lift but much needed drag.

ya spitfire flaps are two position and are pressure driven aren't they with a limited supply of air? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

stalkervision
08-13-2009, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
i saw something on the P-40 flaps. It involves a few more coordinated movements than turning a wheel or moving a lever.

I think any pilot could use flaps when needed in turns, it just takes some anticipation and great familiarity with your aircraft.
I saw the video, and it would be like rolling down a window in an older car.

Another thing, is the pilot in a 109 could wheel down a very minute amount of flaps to help in a turn, and if he needed more, he could wheel down more. (1 rotation = 2.5 degrees of flap).

This doesn't seem unrealistic to me considering the automated controls inside the 109s.

With this said, you cant compare tactics in a sim where we sit a desk uninhibited by death, and most of our controls are at our fingertips.
There are many controls that probably go over/under used when compared to practical uses in real life.

I'd sure as heck wheel down a bit of flap if it got me a a edge in a fight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Kettenhunde
08-13-2009, 08:08 PM
ya spitfire flaps are two position and are pressure driven aren't they with a limited supply of air?

Correct and they actually deploy almost instantly with a very loud bang when not under an air load to 85 degrees. There is only two positions, up and deployed. They are only used for landing and must be deployed at 160 mph or slower.

There is absolutely no way on God's green earth deploying flaps will improve the Spitfires turn. The airplane will turn much worse with 85 degrees of flaps deployed.

It is not that I am necessarily a huge Bf-109 fan, it just seems that most of the erroneous statements get made about the German airplane because folks do not seem very familiar with them.

Facts are all of these airplanes are very similar leaving little to choose between them.

All the best,

Crumpp

stalkervision
08-13-2009, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> ya spitfire flaps are two position and are pressure driven aren't they with a limited supply of air?

Correct and they actually deploy almost instantly with a very loud bang when not under an air load to 85 degrees. There is only two positions, up and deployed. They are only used for landing and must be deployed at 160 mph or slower.

There is absolutely no way on God's green earth deploying flaps will improve the Spitfires turn. The airplane will turn much worse with 85 degrees of flaps deployed.

It is not that I am necessarily a huge Bf-109 fan, it just seems that most of the erroneous statements get made about the German airplane because folks do not seem very familiar with them.

Facts are all of these airplanes are very similar leaving little to choose between them.

All the best,

Crumpp </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that I can believe. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

TheGozr
08-13-2009, 08:54 PM
Look at 2:20mn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIw5WtqYJRg

megalopsuche
08-13-2009, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> ya spitfire flaps are two position and are pressure driven aren't they with a limited supply of air?

Correct and they actually deploy almost instantly with a very loud bang when not under an air load to 85 degrees. There is only two positions, up and deployed. They are only used for landing and must be deployed at 160 mph or slower.

There is absolutely no way on God's green earth deploying flaps will improve the Spitfires turn. The airplane will turn much worse with 85 degrees of flaps deployed.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm still waiting for SeaFireLIV to tell me about the results of the test he was going to do to try to show otherwise.

SeaFireLIV
08-13-2009, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by megalopsuche:


I'm still waiting for SeaFireLIV to tell me about the results of the test he was going to do to try to show otherwise.

Are you?

Well keep waiting. i`ll do it when I have the time.

Freiwillige
08-13-2009, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by TheGozr:
Look at 2:20mn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIw5WtqYJRg
\
Those flaps are not under any load. Try putting 140 MPH of airflow over them and see how it does.

In fact I do believe that only some American fighters had a "Combat flap setting" while most nations had just an up or down switch or crank.

Obviously the 109 you could control the degree of flap manually but things like the spitfire no you couldn't. In fact I was reading that a few 109E pilots during the BOB used the flap technique in an effort to turn with the Spitfire which could not use any flaps.

Kettenhunde
08-14-2009, 05:58 AM
Wow!

Don't have much experience with a Yaks system but that looks like a pneumatic system. Like the German Planes, the VVS birds are not very well known on this side of the pond.

Is that one of the Allison engined new builds with updated systems?

I bet the trim change is pretty violent in that thing. Deploy those puppies and spend the next 20 seconds trying to keep altitude and speed, LOL. Certainly they are different under air load.

Same friend that owns the Bf-109 also has one of the Yak 3U but I am not sure if he still owns it. I did an analysis of the Yak and in talking to him I was surprised at how high the stall speed was on the Yak series due to the Clark Y series airfoil and small wing area. I will have to ask him more about that little plane.

I always thought the Yak series was similar to the Spitfire but in reality it is not even close in design philosophy.

I wouldn't hold that up as an example of typical flap deployment speeds for WWII fighters though.

All the best,

Crumpp

megalopsuche
08-14-2009, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by megalopsuche:


I'm still waiting for SeaFireLIV to tell me about the results of the test he was going to do to try to show otherwise.

Are you?

Well keep waiting. i`ll do it when I have the time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dog eat your joystick? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

BGs_Ricky
08-14-2009, 08:08 AM
I've just re-read Raymond Lallemant's (a belgian pilot in the RAF) book "Rendez-vous avec la chance". On several occasion he states that he used to lower a bit of flaps to help him out-turn FW-190s at low level.
I think that on some rare occasion, given their arcraft would allow it, somme pilot would use a bit of flap to gain the upper hand. But I think that lowering the flaps as a standard method in a turning dogfight is just something we see in our sims because they allow us to do so.
I think that a WWII pilot would first do anything to avoid ending in a slow speed turning fight, except if they were in really slower and more nimble aircraft (e.g. a I-153 vs a Bf-109) or because your mission/orders obliged you to fly slower/lower than your opponents.

Waldo.Pepper
08-14-2009, 08:16 AM
I think that a WWII pilot would first do anything to avoid ending in a slow speed turning fight

+1. Thus rendering the entire discussion nearly moot.

megalopsuche
08-14-2009, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by BGs_Ricky:
I've just re-read Raymond Lallemant's (a belgian pilot in the RAF) book "Rendez-vous avec la chance". On several occasion he states that he used to lower a bit of flaps to help him out-turn FW-190s at low level.


You need to specify what aircraft he was flying. Am I supposed to assume it was a Spitfire? If so, have you noticed that Spitfire flaps are binary?

"Out-turn" is ambiguous. The term is used interchangeably to mean a smaller radius or a faster turn rate, and sometimes it means both. Lowering the flaps will most certainly decrease a Spitfire's turn radius.

BGs_Ricky
08-14-2009, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by megalopsuche:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BGs_Ricky:
I've just re-read Raymond Lallemant's (a belgian pilot in the RAF) book "Rendez-vous avec la chance". On several occasion he states that he used to lower a bit of flaps to help him out-turn FW-190s at low level.


You need to specify what aircraft he was flying. Am I supposed to assume it was a Spitfire? If so, have you noticed that Spitfire flaps are binary?

"Out-turn" is ambiguous. The term is used interchangeably to mean a smaller radius or a faster turn rate, and sometimes it means both. Lowering the flaps will most certainly decrease a Spitfire's turn radius. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haha, I didn't realize I forgot to put the most important factor in my answer: he was flying Typhoons, and from his decription it seems that on the Tiffie you can gradually lower the flaps. He says he used to lower a bit sometimes just to help him turn inside a FW-190 a get a firing solution.
Of course I know that in the Spit you have just two positions, the main point of my post was just to show that some pilots used the flaps in certain situations, even though in WWII it was much more an exception than what we see online in Il-2, where a lot of people use the flaps in combat.

megalopsuche
08-14-2009, 01:52 PM
Haha, yeah, that it was a Typhoon is an important piece of info. I haven't tested it precisely, but the Typh does seem to gain in rate and radius with a bit of flaps.

Tully__
08-14-2009, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by Freiwillige:

Did you even watch the video?

I counted 21 full turns to get the flaps all the way down to a landing configuration. And that is a real museum Bf-109. The video is from the Firepower team that does the FSX 109 add on.

I did and I counted 22 movements of the operators hands. They were no-where near full turns, more like quarter turns of the wheel. This would equate to approximately 5 ~ 5.5 full turns (360 degree rotations) to fully lower the flaps.

Tully__
08-14-2009, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by Manu-6S:
...In the same way of trims on slider (I hate the guys who are using it... totally unrealistic)...

Not so much in later versions of the game as it was in the earlier versions. If a slider user applies full slider, it will still take 3 - 4 seconds for the trim to reach full trim. In early game versions it was instant.

robtek1957
08-15-2009, 02:57 AM
@tully

i believe that manu meant the use of the slider with spitfire flaps and that one can use intermediate positions this way.

Manu-6S
08-15-2009, 03:17 AM
Originally posted by robtek1957:
@tully

i believe that manu meant the use of the slider with spitfire flaps and that one can use intermediate positions this way.

I mean really trim slider. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I've never used it but it's easy to recognize the guys. You are chasing a 109 at high speed and you see them turning at 10 G.

My squadmate tried it a long time ago and referred me that the only danger is reaching more the 15G limit (wings snap).

Anyway you can reach intermediate position in Spit too. The flaps take some second to fully drop: you only need to raise them after 1-2 seconds... IIRC no damage even at high speed.

Sillius_Sodus
08-15-2009, 01:02 PM
Seafire,

Do you use a lot of elevator trim when you turn in your Spit? I've been told that this works better than combat flaps, especially if your trim is on a slider. All I know is that a Spit is nearly uncatchable if the pilot does that. I have mine mapped to a button and it works pretty well too.