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View Full Version : Something you don't see every day (or night)



HayateAce
07-31-2008, 02:58 AM
Wacky Russkies (http://www.strategypage.com/military_videos/military_photos_20080720235350.aspx)

PanzerAce
07-31-2008, 03:44 AM
That's pretty cool. Probably one of the few areas that the Russian military will be clearly ahead of us in terms of capability for a few years will be naval aviation. Now that we have retired the -14s, and waiting for the -35s to be built, the Su-33 is probably a superior aircraft compared to the super hornets. The only thing that really lets us stay ahead of them right now is that our pilots get WAY more stick time, and we have more carriers.

HayateAce
07-31-2008, 08:12 AM
Zen Master says, "We will see."

JG53Frankyboy
07-31-2008, 08:19 AM
the experience and the flexebility of a modern USN Air Wing counts thousand of times more than a possible supperiority of a single Fighter type i belive !

jasonbirder
07-31-2008, 08:24 AM
Probably one of the few areas that the Russian military will be clearly ahead of us in terms of capability for a few years will be naval aviation.

WTF!!! I'm no fan of everything American...but surely when it comes to Naval Aviation...the US are Champions League and the Russians are still kicking the ball about on the park with their mates hung over on a Sunday morning...

What about Night/Adverse weather operations...what about availabilty...downtime...what about in flight refuelling...what about the ability to load/maintain these planes...what about the Russians ability to generate flights of Su33's on a consistent basis...What are the safe launch/recobver weights for Su33's...

Just remember its not top trumps...its not as simple as looking at the top speed of the Superbug and the top speed of the Su33 and concluding that one is better than the other...doh!

ElAurens
07-31-2008, 10:43 AM
In any confrontation with the USN, the Russian Navy will have a glorious, but brief engagement.

If they choose to commit, their surface navy will be gone in a week, tops.

PhantomKira
07-31-2008, 09:39 PM
the Russians are still kicking the ball about on the park with their mates hung over on a Sunday morning...

I'd stay away from implying that Russian pilots are drunkards. Russian aviator standards with regards to alcohol are far more strict than NATO's, particularly American.

Sama51
07-31-2008, 10:29 PM
I'd take two lightweight 18's scrambled and put in the air quickly over a single expensive Su-33.

Russian efficiency and safety in Carrier Ops. leaves a lot to be desired from what I've read. But I could be totally wrong.

WTE_Galway
07-31-2008, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by Sama51:

Russian efficiency and safety in Carrier Ops. leaves a lot to be desired from what I've read.

Uh huh ... and why did the marine corp have a bit of a rep for smashing up their AV8B's ?

Uzunov
07-31-2008, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
In any confrontation with the USN, the Russian Navy will have a glorious, but brief engagement.

If they choose to commit, their surface navy will be gone in a week, tops.

That statement rings a bell ... Hmm. Operation Barbarossa?

And regarding in-flight refueling -- I was under the impression that Russian aviation had that capability for very long time, sometime in the 50s:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/bomber/m-4.htm

Blottogg
08-01-2008, 01:58 AM
Neat movie, thanks for posting the link.

Check the date stamp on at least part of this compilation of Russian Navy home movies...1998. The Kusnetsov and her air wing aren't getting as much at-sea time as they'd like, nor have they for the last decade or so, a point which the title of this post implies.

The Russian carrier is an impressive achievement, especially considering that the only fixed wing experience they had to build on prior to her was with the Yak-38 FORGER VTOL. The Russians have a right to be proud of her (or since it's named after a man, should it be referred to as "he"?) Having said that, the Su-33 is probably not a major concern for the USN Airdales. The resurgence of BEAR activity, and the proliferation of Kilo class diesel-electric subs, are probably much more concerning to them. The Su-33 has a couple of advantages over current USN fighters, such as range (limited by ski-jump takeoff weight limits and availability of tankers), P/W ratio (depending on loadout), and maneuverability. They lack mission flexibility however, and until money from the oil industry filters down to the Russian Navy coffers, the Su-33 avionics and training budgets are going to lag behind those of the only others operating CTOL carrier aviation, the U.S. and France.

I'm not a big fan of the F/A-18, especially the E/F versions. Huggy87 actually flys them though, likes them, and speaks with more authority than I do. I know which one I'd rather be flying in a fight though, and it ain't the FLANKER.

PhantomKira, I'm not familiar with current Russian military alcohol policies and their enforcement, but from your post I'm assuming things are more strict than in the 70's, when the MiG-25 was nicknamed the "Flying Resturant", referring to the ethyl alcohol used to cool the HIGH LARK radar. As for NATO, yeah, the Germans would knock back a beer with lunch before flying in the afternoon. I don't know the specifics of their policy, but I didn't find the practice alarming, and that's from a guy who doesn't drink (despite my callsign). The Americans have, and strictly enforce, an "8 hour bottle-to-throttle" rule, which is less accurate, but easier to measure, than BAC.

Schwarz.13
08-01-2008, 02:01 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
In any confrontation with the USN, the Russian Navy will have a glorious, but brief engagement.

If they choose to commit, their surface navy will be gone in a week, tops.

Oh Really? (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492804/The-uninvited-guest-Chinese-sub-pops-middle-U-S-Navy-exercise-leaving-military-chiefs-red-faced.html)

jasonbirder
08-01-2008, 03:11 AM
My analogy was not one implying they are actually hung over (thats why its an analogy...)...it was more of a comment on their comparative professionalism...given their lack of at sea time...lack of flying hours...limited training schedules - the Russian Naval Aviators would be far less prepared and professional than their American counterparts...
Do they even have a proven capability to operate at Night and under Adverse Weather Conditions...Is their any possibility of them utilising force multipliers such as In Flight Refuelling,Airborne Early Warning, Electronic Warfare support for their blue Sea operations?
Given the SkiRamp STOL set up...what are the take off weights for the planes...the SU33 is a big Plane remember...
What loadouts are signed off for Carrier Operations...are there any Air-Ground munitions it can operate with from the carrier or is it purely configured as an Air to Air platform...
What sort of operations schedule would they be able to maintain...especially given that the airframes have relatively short operating life spans compared to western platforms...despite their reputation for building simple..solid..rugged Airplanes the Luftwaffe found the Mig29's they inherited to be very maintance intensive and found it difficult to sustain high operational availability...
Most importantly do they have the skilled technicians able to maintain and generate the planes for extended at sea deployments...without a realistic capability to replenish at sea and a very limited availability of foreign operating bases...what sort of magazine/bunkerage capacity does the carrier have for sustaining flight/combat operations...
All boring stuff compared to saying...oooh aren't Sukhoi's Cool...they're really maneuverable you know...I saw one at an Airshow once...I bet they kick *ss, but far more relevent to their performance during combat operations.

stathem
08-01-2008, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
In any confrontation with the USN, the Russian Navy will have a glorious, but brief engagement.

If they choose to commit, their surface navy will be gone in a week, tops.

Surely that should be 'two weeks'?

Ollivaan
08-01-2008, 04:37 AM
Originally posted by Uzunov:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
In any confrontation with the USN, the Russian Navy will have a glorious, but brief engagement.

If they choose to commit, their surface navy will be gone in a week, tops.

That statement rings a bell ... Hmm. Operation Barbarossa? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL

joeap
08-01-2008, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by Ollivaan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Uzunov:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
In any confrontation with the USN, the Russian Navy will have a glorious, but brief engagement.

If they choose to commit, their surface navy will be gone in a week, tops.

That statement rings a bell ... Hmm. Operation Barbarossa? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm Barbarossa was a land operation, so wrong analogy. More like Imperial Germany or Napoleonic France against the UK.

Bewolf
08-01-2008, 07:03 AM
Originally posted by joeap:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ollivaan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Uzunov:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
In any confrontation with the USN, the Russian Navy will have a glorious, but brief engagement.

If they choose to commit, their surface navy will be gone in a week, tops.

That statement rings a bell ... Hmm. Operation Barbarossa? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm Barbarossa was a land operation, so wrong analogy. More like Imperial Germany or Napoleonic France against the UK. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hardly the UK, as that is an island nation and thus naturally protected against Invasions. The Barbarossa comparison was quite right, or that of the US and Japan, where both Japan and the USSR were seen as incapable backwards nations until the big suprise.

Xiolablu3
08-01-2008, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by jasonbirder:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Probably one of the few areas that the Russian military will be clearly ahead of us in terms of capability for a few years will be naval aviation.

WTF!!! I'm no fan of everything American...but surely when it comes to Naval Aviation...the US are Champions League and the Russians are still kicking the ball about on the park with their mates hung over on a Sunday morning...

What about Night/Adverse weather operations...what about availabilty...downtime...what about in flight refuelling...what about the ability to load/maintain these planes...what about the Russians ability to generate flights of Su33's on a consistent basis...What are the safe launch/recobver weights for Su33's...

Just remember its not top trumps...its not as simple as looking at the top speed of the Superbug and the top speed of the Su33 and concluding that one is better than the other...doh! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent post

ElAurens
08-01-2008, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by Uzunov:

That statement rings a bell ... Hmm. Operation Barbarossa?

Thinking more along the lines of Tsushima.

http://www.brianwood.com/newsarama2/ryan.jpg

An ill trained, poorly maintained, unmotivated, and technically obsolete Russian Navy meets it's predictable demise.

Uzunov
08-01-2008, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Uzunov:

That statement rings a bell ... Hmm. Operation Barbarossa?

Thinking more along the lines of Tsushima.

An ill trained, poorly maintained, unmotivated, and technically obsolete Russian Navy meets it's predictable demise. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are firing in so many directions that I am afraid that if I oblige this may turn into something unpleasant. I'd prefer to disengage.

VW-IceFire
08-01-2008, 08:30 PM
That is a neat video...something I'd never seen before. Actual video of Russian carrier operations! Pretty impressive in its own right especially given their previous lack of experience in the field.

Thanks for sharing!

huggy87
08-02-2008, 03:38 AM
Seems like a real waste of resources for the Russians. It makes sense for us Americans, being in practical terms an island nation, but what are the Russians thinking?

If I were them I would put that money into cruise missiles and subs.

HayateAce
08-03-2008, 06:16 AM
For the same reason they tried this:

http://www.columbiassacrifice.com/images/gen_graphics/buran/buran_landing.jpg