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View Full Version : How do I get out of a flat spin?



Skarphol
06-20-2007, 04:48 AM
Hi!

I've been playing this sim for quite som time now, but one thing never seems to stop bugging me: How do I get out of a flat spin?
I usually fly some sort of Bf-109, and quite often I get into a flat spin while doing evasive manouvers. Sometimes even when I try to shoot at someone who I'm about to overtake. Trouble is, I have serious problems getting out of the flat spin again! The way I have found that seem to work most of the time is this: I cut the throttle, kick full rudder in the oposite direction of the spin, full elevator down, and lower the flaps. This usually ends the spin, but not before I've lost about 700-1000m altitude. Any other ways that usually works? The best thing would of course be to stay away from flat spins, but thats another problem...

I took a tour with an experienced pilot in a SAAB Safir once, and he deliberately put the plane into spins several times. These were not flat spins, though. He pulled the plane out whenever he wanted to... it seemed so simple!


Thanks in advance for any usefull hints!

Skarphol

Scorpion.233
06-20-2007, 05:02 AM
Press the nose down, and give counter rudder.

I also tried lowering the landing gear a few times but not sure if that helps.

CrazySchmidt
06-20-2007, 05:12 AM
Jump!

There is no interference modelling on flesh. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

CS. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

K_Freddie
06-20-2007, 05:26 AM
The usual things that you've done and a little extra bit..
Use the engine torque to roll the plane onto it's side, when it does this kick rudder in direction of the roll.
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leitmotiv
06-20-2007, 05:54 AM
KF, if you are in a flat spin, you can't roll your airplane, you can't do anything until you recover. I got out of one in the Go 229 by dropping everything in the house: full flaps, landing gear, its dive brake, and, of course, all the usual remedies---anything less did not work. The one which absolutely refused to respond to anything I did, no matter what, was the Beaufighter. I haven't used it in ages, and I don't know if this is still the case, but it was the only pre-Peska patch IL-2 FM I could not get out of a flat spin. There may be quite a few nasties now, but I am unaware of them.

Viper2005_
06-20-2007, 07:21 AM
The best advice I can give is to avoid getting into a spin in the first place.

If you get into a spin you need to

Cut power.
Apply full opposite rudder.

Pause.

Stick centrally forward.

Now wait for the aircraft to recover. This can take a while. One of the leading causes of failure to recover from spins is that people don't give their control inputs long enough to work.

If recovery isn't happening, application of in-spin aileron can help, counter-intuitive though it sounds. Some aircraft need it and some aircraft don't - since you've got a refly button you can find out easily enough and gain some experience into the bargain.

MrMojok
06-20-2007, 07:42 AM
Maybe to help avoid the spins in the first place, change your stick settings a bit, make the curves max out at 95 or so. This way the plane will not react so sensitively too every minute joystick input.

K_Freddie
06-20-2007, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
KF, if you are in a flat spin, you can't roll your airplane, you can't do anything until you recover.

Done it in a FW190, flat as a pancake. Max throttle, min throttle, and max again. Wing dipped (rolled over from torque) and then a full recovery. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

leitmotiv
06-20-2007, 08:20 AM
Thanks for the tip!

K_Freddie
06-20-2007, 08:30 AM
It does roll over that much so one must be ready to catch it, and use the rudder to accelerate the roll.

But it's enough to get out of 'pancake mode'
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BrotherVoodoo
06-20-2007, 08:43 AM
Jump!
If it's a P39 in a flatspin, jumping really is the best advise. Anything else you should be able to pull it out assuming you have ample altitude and follow the advise above.

Xiolablu3
06-20-2007, 09:20 AM
Throttle back to 0%, RUdder to opposite of the SPin, push stick forward.

If its not working, try throttle to full, but usually 0% is best so try that first.

LStarosta
06-20-2007, 09:32 AM
NEVER EVER EVER NEVER EVER EVER EVER deploy landing gear or apply ailerons in a spin. You will only further ruin the airflow over the wing, keeping it stalled and you will make it that much more difficult to recover.

P-ower -- ****** the throttle

A-ilerons -- Neutral

R-udder -- Full opposite

E-levator -- Forward immediately in a quick thrust after applying rudder and hold the anti-spin configuration for the duration of the maneuver.

D-ive -- Recover from it. This is why your throttle was pulled to idle.

In Il-2 you can use the torque of the engine to counteract the spin and you will have quite a while from the time you exit a dive to your maximum maneuvering or even redline speed. I was trained in stalls and spins in light aircraft that would rapidly accelerate in a near-vertical dive to their Vne, therefore I was trained to ****** the throttle. However, Il-2 planes are a different kind of bird, so do what gets the job done.

M2morris
06-20-2007, 09:48 AM
An inverted flat spin is even worse, as you can see here:
http://www.check-six.com/Crash_Sites/N8581.htm


BTW, if you guys remember the Bi-plane project I was giving away a few months ago, this guy was the builder of that project. They mention in the link that he was building another plane at the time of his crash; that was the plane I had.
I ended up giving it to Attitude Aviation in Livermore CA, they are going to finish it.

Divine-Wind
06-20-2007, 09:54 AM
Ctrl-E.

Nah, just kidding. I mean, you can, and it works, but usually what LStarosa (He posted something useful and relevant!!1) said works good.

leitmotiv
06-20-2007, 10:19 AM
I haven't tried KF's method to get out of a flat spin in a Go 229 yet, but, unless the FM has been changed, you won't get out of a flat spin in that beast by using conventional spin recovery techniques, Luke. Believe me, I tried and tried, and all I accomplished was having to bail before cratering time and again. I believe I thought of lowering flaps and l.g. because I recalled that test pilots were forced to resort to deploying this stratagem to recover from flat spins in the early Corsairs (I think).

LStarosta
06-20-2007, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
I haven't tried KF's method to get out of a flat spin in a Go 229 yet, but, unless the FM has been changed, you won't get out of a flat spin in that beast by using conventional spin recovery techniques, Luke. Believe me, I tried and tried, and all I accomplished was having to bail before cratering time and again. I believe I thought of lowering flaps and l.g. because I recalled that test pilots were forced to resort to deploying this stratagem to recover from flat spins in the early Corsairs (I think).

True, what I posted is a very general technique involved in manipulating only the aerodynamics of the aircraft.

Thinking about it again, it makes sense because you can manipulate your pitch by having your line of thrust above or below a source of drag such as a fuselage, or in this case the extremely draggy landing gear of the Corsair. Since the thrust vector is above the draggy landing gear, this will produce a pitch-down tendency when thrust is produced as the throttle is advanced. I can see this working only with a VERY large amount of thrust, which may be entirely possible with a ~2000HP engine.

This also makes sense why nowadays everyone is taught to keep the wing clean in stalls and spins in GA aircraft.

neural_dream
06-20-2007, 10:49 AM
When I get in a flat spin, I:

* cut throttle and propeller pitch to 0%. I assume both are in a slider or easy to cut anyway.
* lower gear and flaps. I assume speed below 350 km/h.
* full opposite rudder. Not always good, but unless things get worse keep holding it there.
* throw the cat out.
* ballet and quick thinking to hold the nose downwards and in a way which does not bring more oscillations. Be a gentleman. Gentle and strong.
* When the plane stops spinning and is increasing speed towards the ground raise gear and flaps to combat (before 350km/h) and gradually increase pitch until you zoom back up when both throttle and pitch should be max.


Flat spins make you a terribly easy target for long time. If you are above friendly ground and there are enemy fighters nearby, CTRL-E. All other options are madness or arcade gaming.

general_kalle
06-20-2007, 10:55 AM
P39 is my Favorite plane, unfortuatly its got a very nasty Flat spin, first you need a certain amount of hight, if you are below 500 meters you can wave goodbuye,

if you are higher apply full flaps and Gear.
then pull the Stick Forward and opposite of Spin Direktion, which always seams to be left, therefore pull the stick forward and right while applying rudder right.

besides that all there is to do i Pray http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LStarosta
06-20-2007, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by general_kalle:
P39 is my Favorite plane, unfortuatly its got a very nasty Flat spin, first you need a certain amount of hight, if you are below 500 meters you can wave goodbuye,

if you are higher apply full flaps and Gear.
then pull the Stick Forward and opposite of Spin Direktion, which always seams to be left, therefore pull the stick forward and right while applying rudder right.

besides that all there is to do i Pray http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Disagree. A true flat spin where your airspeed is next to nill especially in an aircraft where the CG is behing the CP, such as the P39, deploying flaps and gear and using ailerons will only get you killed. Try doing what I posted above. It will take several revolutions but your nose will begin to nose down and you will start gaining airspeed and the wings will begin to unstall.

K_Freddie
06-20-2007, 11:28 AM
This is part of a movie I made some time ago...

Notice that I'm trying to force the left wing down (by any means possible) and on the 2nd motor rev attempt it drops enough to recover.

http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/FlatSpin.wmv = 13MB

Forgot another point. the spin started high up and after my first recovery attempt I realise the air was to thin (game), so waited a while for the 2nd attempt so the prop could bite more of the air and create more torque... seemed to have worked.
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EDCF_Rama
06-20-2007, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
Disagree. A true flat spin where your airspeed is next to nill especially in an aircraft where the CG is behing the CP, such as the P39, deploying flaps and gear and using ailerons will only get you killed.

Disagree... I did it plenty of time in IL2 (deploying flaps and gear in a nasty flat spin), and it allways saved my ***.

Remenber we're talling about the game... not RL.

LStarosta
06-20-2007, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by EDCF_Rama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
Disagree. A true flat spin where your airspeed is next to nill especially in an aircraft where the CG is behing the CP, such as the P39, deploying flaps and gear and using ailerons will only get you killed.

Disagree... I did it plenty of time in IL2 (deploying flaps and gear in a nasty flat spin), and it allways saved my ***.

Remenber we're talling about the game... not RL. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I just did this about 10 times each way like Kalle describes and how I described it in a P39-Q10. I start at 3000m, keep the spin up to 2500m where I begin to try to get out of the spin. Each time I did what Kalle suggested and dropped gear, full flaps, full forward stick, full right aileron and full right rudder, I crashed into the ground. Each time I did nothing but full right rudder and full forward stick, I recovered in about 1000-1200m.

Skarphol
06-20-2007, 12:58 PM
Thanks for all of your advices!

It seems like the thing is to
1. cut throttle
2. full rudder oposite to spin
3. full down elevator
4. full throttle

This seems to allways bring the Bf-109 out of it anyway. But with a significant loss of altitude..

Skarphol

Viper2005_
06-20-2007, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
NEVER EVER EVER NEVER EVER EVER EVER deploy landing gear or apply ailerons in a spin. You will only further ruin the airflow over the wing, keeping it stalled and you will make it that much more difficult to recover. Not if you apply in-spin aileron. Consider a spin to the left. The aircraft is spinning because the left wing is stalled, producing little lift and lots of drag. Meanwhile the right wing isn't stalled, and is therefore producing relatively little drag and lots of lift.

Ailerons work by changing the camber of the wing. To a pretty good 1st approximation, the CLmax of any given wing is fixed, as is the gradient of the linear portion of the lift slope. Changing camber just shifts the curve about. If you apply in-spin aileron (ie left aileron in a spin to the left) then you're reducing the camber of the down-going wing. This will actually increase its lift and reduce its drag because it's on the wrong side of the lift curve. Meanwhile the up-going wing is un-stalled. Increasing its camber will bring it closer to the stall, increasing drag considerably whilst not doing a great deal to lift. The overall result is to promote the conversion of the spin into a spiral dive.



P-ower -- ****** the throttle

A-ilerons -- Neutral

R-udder -- Full opposite

E-levator -- Forward immediately in a quick thrust after applying rudder and hold the anti-spin configuration for the duration of the maneuver.

D-ive -- Recover from it. This is why your throttle was pulled to idle.

In Il-2 you can use the torque of the engine to counteract the spin and you will have quite a while from the time you exit a dive to your maximum maneuvering or even redline speed. I was trained in stalls and spins in light aircraft that would rapidly accelerate in a near-vertical dive to their Vne, therefore I was trained to ****** the throttle. However, Il-2 planes are a different kind of bird, so do what gets the job done.

1) The main reason for reducing power is that you want to slow the prop down in order to reduce the effects of gyroscopic precession. If you're unfortunate enough to be spinning the "wrong" way then the gyroscopic precession of the prop will act in a nose-up direction, which considerably hampers recovery. You don't want to be mucking about asking yourself which way the precession is going to act in this spin (Which way is the prop turning? Which way are we spinning? So what does that mean?). As such the best "fail-safe" policy is to take the precession out of the equation by taking the power off. Even if you've got a wobbly prop, at idle the CSU won't be governing so the rpm will decay and life will become much simpler since now you're (almost) flying a glider.

Torque is far less of a demon than most people make it out to be. Most of the time, unless you're flying helicopters, the real villains are gyroscopic precession, propwash and P-factor. Next, if you don't have a wobbly prop you need to worry about the engine redline. Having power on isn't an issue for recovery from a vertical dive - you've just got to use g to keep your speed under control. Or to put it another way, try looping. If you've got a wobbly prop then there's no need to touch the power all the way round - if you're stuck with fixed pitch then you might need to reduce power to avoid redlining the engine - in the Robin I fly at the moment you need to take power off prior to reaching loop entry speed of 130-135 knots. As you go up you put the power back on, and then you take it back off on the way down if necessary - pull hard enough and it won't be, though your loop will be far from circular and you'll gain height. But anyway, I digress. The point is that power isn't really much of an issue for dive recovery - the reason for taking power is to reduce rpm & therefore reduce potentially harmful gyroscopic effects.

2) The most important feature of dive recovery is to avoid a rolling-pullout. The stressing calculations responsible for setting your max manoeuvre speed were based upon the assumption that you used one control at a time. So stop the roll. Then pull. BTW, light aircraft are generally very draggy and have quite high Vspeeds. Spin recovery in gliders can be quite "interesting" (since they aren't and often don't!), and is arguably more important given the amount of time they spend at less than 1.1Vstall turning with lots of rudder...

Oh and the CoG of a P-39 is certainly not behind the CoP. If that were the case it would be pitch unstable. Not unstable like the "wobble whine" that used to infest this board, but actually genuinely unstable. Pitch oscillations would diverge, the aircraft would be impossible to trim and nobody would fly it. Most people on these boards have no idea what "unstable" really means, and the endless crying wolf on the subject is really tiresome. There are no unstable aircraft in the game (other than the Lerche in the hover which is roughly neutrally stable, has an autostabiliser for the lazy and is flown by almost nobody anyway...). Suffice it to say that if an aeroplane is unstable you know about it very quickly, and if the instability anything other than slight, the chances are high that it's game over unless you've got a computer to control the beast for you...

IL2-chuter
06-20-2007, 05:58 PM
yay - Viper.

well said - especially about the P-39. With that plane it's the polar moment (or lack of it, rather) not the "CG".

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neural_dream
06-20-2007, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by Skarphol:
This seems to allways bring the Bf-109 out of it anyway.
BF109 in flat spin? how did you manage that? Our advice was for P39, beaufighters, Ta152 etc.
I presume

LStarosta
06-20-2007, 07:31 PM
Good points Viper, thanks for clearing things up.


And Neural, I can't get the 109 into a flat spin no matter what I try either. The CG is too far forward and the moment of the engine is probably too great, but I don't know that much about 109 weight and balance so i dunno.

EDCF_Rama
06-21-2007, 03:56 AM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
I just did this about 10 times each way like Kalle describes and how I described it in a P39-Q10. I start at 3000m, keep the spin up to 2500m where I begin to try to get out of the spin. Each time I did what Kalle suggested and dropped gear, full flaps, full forward stick, full right aileron and full right rudder, I crashed into the ground.

I just talked about flaps and gear... Each time I enter a flat spin in P39, I put the throttle iddle, drop flaps and gear, wait for the flat spin to convert in a standard spin), then apply the standard recovery procedure.
For me, in game, it works 90% of the times... (and I tried again yesterday evening for the same result)

Something I also found (by trial)... is that shuting down engine accelerate the stall conversion (but of course then you need enough altitude after spin recovery to gain sufficient speed to restart engine without problems)

All this comes purelly from game trials, and is in no way related to physics (considering that the simulations has limits)

rnzoli
06-21-2007, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by CrazySchmidt:
Jump!

There is no interference modelling on flesh. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I think jumping is a death sentence. Every time my little virtual pilot jumped from a spinning P-39, the plane soon descended on him and cut his parachute to pieces, and then he fell to his death immediately. The P-39 also lost one wing in the process, but it didn't matter.

Bremspropeller
06-21-2007, 06:59 AM
LoL, aileron against the direction of spin is a quite stupid attempt.
Adverse yaw would only affect a more stable spin-attitude.

If applying aileron at all, then into the direction of the spin.
That way you'd get two benefits:
Adverse yaw decellerates the outward wing and the roll leads to a decreased AoA on the inner wing. Of course aileron should only be applied after you have your rudder against the rotation and the elevator down.

As for doing it IRL, I'd strongly recommend following the flight-manual instructuions.

Whirlin_merlin
06-21-2007, 07:11 AM
That's weird L 'cos a while back I did some playing around with the p39 and found exactly the opposite to you.

P.S I'm noting trying to argue against your spin advice, just saying that 'in game' my experience has been different.

Skarphol
06-21-2007, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
BF109 in flat spin? how did you manage that?

Weeeell, I don't know! I just happen to get that 109 into something that appears to me as a flat spin. Quite often when in combat. I admit that I'm a fairly poor pilot, given the fact that I've flown this sim/game for 5 years now.. I'm not flying often though, maybe 2 hours a week.

Usually, when I see tracers flying around my cockpit, I pull the stick back and to the left or right to get out of my opponents line of fire. Moments later I'm in a spin, with no airspeed, the horizon fairly level in front of me, turning with about a revolution per second. Decent is not at all that fast, but as this often happen at low altitude, it is fast enough....

Skarphol

slappedsilly
06-21-2007, 05:01 PM
If playing online, getting blown out of the sky usually works well for me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif