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Brutal67
05-08-2006, 04:26 PM
I have been away dealing with the real world and now have time to get back into IL2 FB. The one thing I am noticing is that the official patch being run is 4.04 but many of the servers on Hyperlobby are running 4.05. So I take it that the PE-2 addon has updated to version 4.05. So am I correct in that this essentially splits the community to those with the PE-2 addon and those without? If this is true what a stupid move this is.
Don't get me wrong I appreciate all the hard work Maddox games has put into this simulation. As well it has been wonderful how they have added so many new flyable aircraft over the years. If they want to make money by adding even more flyable aircraft then my hats off to them. But do it in bundles and sell them as addons like AEP and Pacific Fighters. (yes I know PF was a stand alone as well but most of us don't fly stand alone PF.) Releasing rag tag individual flyable planes shifting everyones version around is not a great way to keep this community togeather and flying.
Obviously I don't have the PE-2 addon. Quite honestly I am not interested in even flying the PE-2. But if I am going to fly on the servers that I enjoy I have to purchase the PE-2 add on. Again this would be fine if there were other AC that I was interested in flying and they were bundled as a addon. I hope this does not get too out of hand because I could see this as every one trying to keep up with the Jone's and people dropping out due to financial situations.
So someone at 1C please answer me Whats up? How many more of these individual add-ons are in the works? Can I expect to get hit up every couple months for some more cash just so I have the right game version to be compatible with most of the community? Why not just hold on to these add-ons and bundle them up like you have done in the past? You have such a beautiful game and have done such wonderful things with it. It is just very troubling to see it go down this path.

ImpStarDuece
05-08-2006, 04:47 PM
These addons were initially planned for release in the Russian market alone. It wasn't planned to be released in the west.

As a result, there was a strong campaign on these and other boards to have UbiSoft release the 3 add-ons to the western market.

When UbiSoft decided to release the Pe-2 and forthcomming add-ons they did it in the most commercially viable way it saw possible: a paid for, electronic download.

There was some consternation at this for several reasons:

1) Some in the community percieved that content that would of been traditionally released free by 1C:Maddox as 'patches' was now being released as a paid for 'add-on'
2) Some people didn't understand why it was only available for electronic download, not a physical CD/DVD available in stores.
3) Some people were upset about the e-commerce download manager "BoontyBox" that was bundled in with the add-on download. Much mudslinging of the terms 'spyware', 'virus', 'starforce in disguise' were slung around, wthout any real understanding. One of the major issues was that Boonty Box doesn't function properly under Windows 98.
4) Finaly, some individuals experianced problem with the download and or installation process itself.


What you are saying is this:

1) I don't have the Pe-2 add-on
2) I don't like the planes in the add-on so i'm not interested in buying it, but
3) Everyone else has the add-on and if I don't have it, I can't play online with everyone else.
4) Make the add-on interesting for me, otherwise I won't buy it and can't play online.

What you have to remember is that

1) Lots of people wanted a Pe-2
2) The community DEMANDED these add-ons be released in the west
3) This is the business model UbiSoft is using to distribute them, like it or not
4) The same situation is heppening in Russia, where the 3 add-ons are being released piece-meal as well
5) 1C:Maddox and UbiSoft are businesses and need to turn a profit to ensure their own survival, releasing the add-ons in this way ensures that.

crazyivan1970
05-08-2006, 04:58 PM
6) You just received couple of months ago FREE addon that contains ALOT of aircraft that could make paid addon with ease, but still you received it for free.

MrMojok
05-08-2006, 05:03 PM
Ivan, have you heard any talk about a patch, just to fix AI issues and whatnot for us 4.4 jockies?

PF_Coastie
05-08-2006, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by MrMojok:
Ivan, have you heard any talk about a patch, just to fix AI issues and whatnot for us 4.4 jockies?

If there is a patch, it will be 4.06 and you will have to be using 4.05 to use it.

But, I doubt they do that. They will likely incorporate any fixes into the next add-on.

So, release the moths from your wallets ya stinghy bastages and get the freakin add-on already. Geeeze, I never seen so much fuss over $20 for something that gives so much enjoyment.

crazyivan1970
05-08-2006, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by MrMojok:
Ivan, have you heard any talk about a patch, just to fix AI issues and whatnot for us 4.4 jockies?

I am afraid that future patches will be only applicable to version 405 and up.

Brutal67
05-08-2006, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
6) You just received couple of months ago FREE addon that contains ALOT of aircraft that could make paid addon with ease, but still you received it for free.

Okay sorry I understand now we are on a whole new level of corporate greed here. Yes I did recieve an add on with a number of new flyable AC. A few of which I enjoy being able to fly but my point is why not bundle all of these into add-ons. I bought FB, AEP, and PF and have recieved hours of enjoyment with them. I don't mind laying down another 30 dollars for even another expansion pack. What I do have a problem with is getting charged 20 dollars for each new "exclusive add-on". Essentially if I do not choose to buy this "exclusive add-on" there is no way that I will be able to patch my game to the latest version. So even if 1C releases 4.06 I must first purchase the "exclusive add-on" first.
Let's assume then that happens and then another "exclusive add-on" (heck lets call it what it really is it is a patch) is released that adds a flyable C6N Nakajima. Now this is an AC that few of us would have any interest in flying. But in order to keep our game up to date with the current version we will be forced to purchase. Especially if we are interested in any other future updates. This makes no sense other than a new level of corporate greed. I don't know if I am going to purchase any of these "exclusive add-ons" until I see how the future pans out here.

RAF92_Moser
05-08-2006, 06:34 PM
It's not really a patch, Brutal. Oleg has just been releasing free addons and we have been taking them as patches. Now he needs some money and is selling the addons. Not really greed, just business. It will split the community, but I guess we all voted for it.

WTE_Galway
05-08-2006, 06:44 PM
if it were corporate greed you would being paying per month to play

BfHeFwMe
05-08-2006, 06:46 PM
If this addon was truely originally "only for Russian market", than can someone please provide a link to a Russian who is selling disk versions!

Otherwise your really blowing a bunch of smoke. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Where's the Russian online orders? Where's the links to Russian CD version retailers? I've seen no evidence they exist so far.

MLudner
05-08-2006, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by Brutal67:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
6) You just received couple of months ago FREE addon that contains ALOT of aircraft that could make paid addon with ease, but still you received it for free.

Okay sorry I understand now we are on a whole new level of corporate greed here. Yes I did recieve an add on with a number of new flyable AC. A few of which I enjoy being able to fly but my point is why not bundle all of these into add-ons. I bought FB, AEP, and PF and have recieved hours of enjoyment with them. I don't mind laying down another 30 dollars for even another expansion pack. What I do have a problem with is getting charged 20 dollars for each new "exclusive add-on". Essentially if I do not choose to buy this "exclusive add-on" there is no way that I will be able to patch my game to the latest version. So even if 1C releases 4.06 I must first purchase the "exclusive add-on" first.
Let's assume then that happens and then another "exclusive add-on" (heck lets call it what it really is it is a patch) is released that adds a flyable C6N Nakajima. Now this is an AC that few of us would have any interest in flying. But in order to keep our game up to date with the current version we will be forced to purchase. Especially if we are interested in any other future updates. This makes no sense other than a new level of corporate greed. I don't know if I am going to purchase any of these "exclusive add-ons" until I see how the future pans out here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Typical.
They do a lot of work for us FREE of charge, then when they ask to get paid for some of it someone has to start spouting mindless drivel like "a whole new level of corporate greed".

Do you work for free? Does your hypocrisy know any bounds? I never complain of paying those who work for me.

Buy it, or don't buy it; just drop the mindless MERDA. You call them greedy! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SeaFireLIV
05-08-2006, 07:08 PM
Well, it does technically split the community... until they get it.

I myself was unable to fly my usually online Campaign server cos I didn`t have the 4.05 version. (Still waiting for my bank transfer to go through....)

Normally, I would have bought it out of the store on the 1st day, but now I have to go thru this payment-thru-net ****, which isn`t easy for everyone. It`s an annoying pain.

Once I would`ve looked forward to add-ons from IL2, now I`m dreading the next 2.

First 4.04 AI gets busted so I can`t fly offline, now I can`t fly online for over a week cos the 4.05 download ****, so I can`t fly online either now.

I`m getting the growing feeling that fate`s trying to tell me something here....

willyvic
05-08-2006, 07:22 PM
So, if I understand correctly, there will be no patches for 4.04m. The only patches to come will be for the addons. And within these there may be "patches" to the game.

Does that mean we are now paying for patches to fix the game? That there will be no more patching without upgrading to the next addon?

Totally confused here now.

WV.

crazyivan1970
05-08-2006, 07:28 PM
Nothing to be confused about mate. This sim moved to next version. So, support will continue to the next version.

willyvic
05-08-2006, 07:33 PM
Got it Ivan. But does that mean that whatever is wrong, if anything, with the PE addon that we will have to buy the next one to fix it?
I'm not sure that would be the ideal thing to do. Ideal for the customer that is.

WV.

Brutal67
05-08-2006, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by MLudner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brutal67:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
6) You just received couple of months ago FREE addon that contains ALOT of aircraft that could make paid addon with ease, but still you received it for free.

Okay sorry I understand now we are on a whole new level of corporate greed here. Yes I did recieve an add on with a number of new flyable AC. A few of which I enjoy being able to fly but my point is why not bundle all of these into add-ons. I bought FB, AEP, and PF and have recieved hours of enjoyment with them. I don't mind laying down another 30 dollars for even another expansion pack. What I do have a problem with is getting charged 20 dollars for each new "exclusive add-on". Essentially if I do not choose to buy this "exclusive add-on" there is no way that I will be able to patch my game to the latest version. So even if 1C releases 4.06 I must first purchase the "exclusive add-on" first.
Let's assume then that happens and then another "exclusive add-on" (heck lets call it what it really is it is a patch) is released that adds a flyable C6N Nakajima. Now this is an AC that few of us would have any interest in flying. But in order to keep our game up to date with the current version we will be forced to purchase. Especially if we are interested in any other future updates. This makes no sense other than a new level of corporate greed. I don't know if I am going to purchase any of these "exclusive add-ons" until I see how the future pans out here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Typical.
They do a lot of work for us FREE of charge, then when they ask to get paid for some of it someone has to start spouting mindless drivel like "a whole new level of corporate greed".

Do you work for free? Does your hypocrisy know any bounds? I never complain of paying those who work for me.

Buy it, or don't buy it; just drop the mindless MERDA. You call them greedy! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I fail to understand my hypocrisy. I stated that I am willing to pay for a add-on with some substantial content. I fail to see where there is any substantial content here. In my opinion they should hold on to these small "patches" until they have substantial content to release a expansion pack. Or why don't we just just shread this whole thing and goto a pay to play system.

LEBillfish
05-08-2006, 07:42 PM
Why is it every patch or add on we get this group that says "it is splitting the community"....Naturally that group being those that would like to have everyone stay at the version "THEY" are at or prefer......We have only heard this though at the following revisions:

IL2 Sturmovik to IL2 Forgotten Battles
1.0 to 1.10
1.10 to 1.11
1.11 to 1.21
1.21 to 1.22
1.22 to 2.00
2.00 to 2.01
2.01 to 2.02
2.02 to 2.03
2.03 to 2.04
2.04 to Pacific Fighters Merged 3.00m
PF 3.00 vs. PF 3.00m
3.00/m to 3.01/m
3.01/m to 3.02/m
3.02/m to 3.03/m
3.03/m to 3.04/m
3.04/m to 4.00/m
4.00/m to 4.01/m
4.01/m to 4.02/m
4.02/m to 4.03/m
4.03/m to 4.04/m
4.04m to 4.05m (PE2)

So in that the complaints of "I quit", "You're splitting the community" have gone on each of the above and any I missed, I sincerely expect to see them when;

4.05m to 4.06m
4.06m to 4.07m
Any other little fix patches in between......

and can't wait for the cry of injustice to ring out when all are eventually told;

"Good News!! today 1c/Maddox Games with support from UbiSoft presents...BoB the Battle of Britain with the most advanced blah blah blah...."

Look at all the effort above........and I don't know about you but I only had to pay for FB/AEP/PF/PE2........I don't get that much bang for the buck anywhere else......Sorry Dear (husbands are so sensitive http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

WTE_Galway
05-08-2006, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Brutal67:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brutal67:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
6) You just received couple of months ago FREE addon that contains ALOT of aircraft that could make paid addon with ease, but still you received it for free.

Okay sorry I understand now we are on a whole new level of corporate greed here. Yes I did recieve an add on with a number of new flyable AC. A few of which I enjoy being able to fly but my point is why not bundle all of these into add-ons. I bought FB, AEP, and PF and have recieved hours of enjoyment with them. I don't mind laying down another 30 dollars for even another expansion pack. What I do have a problem with is getting charged 20 dollars for each new "exclusive add-on". Essentially if I do not choose to buy this "exclusive add-on" there is no way that I will be able to patch my game to the latest version. So even if 1C releases 4.06 I must first purchase the "exclusive add-on" first.
Let's assume then that happens and then another "exclusive add-on" (heck lets call it what it really is it is a patch) is released that adds a flyable C6N Nakajima. Now this is an AC that few of us would have any interest in flying. But in order to keep our game up to date with the current version we will be forced to purchase. Especially if we are interested in any other future updates. This makes no sense other than a new level of corporate greed. I don't know if I am going to purchase any of these "exclusive add-ons" until I see how the future pans out here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Typical.
They do a lot of work for us FREE of charge, then when they ask to get paid for some of it someone has to start spouting mindless drivel like "a whole new level of corporate greed".

Do you work for free? Does your hypocrisy know any bounds? I never complain of paying those who work for me.

Buy it, or don't buy it; just drop the mindless MERDA. You call them greedy! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I fail to understand my hypocrisy. I stated that I am willing to pay for a add-on with some substantial content. I fail to see where there is any substantial content here. In my opinion they should hold on to these small "patches" until they have substantial content to release a expansion pack. Or why don't we just just shread this whole thing and goto a pay to play system. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


If i understand correctly you are not upset at the cost of the addon itself as you do not actually want it.

You are upset that its too popular and a lot of people online are buying it (and hence you can't play with them).


thats a bit odd.

SeaFireLIV
05-08-2006, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Why is it every patch or add on we get this group that says "it is splitting the community"....Naturally that group being those that would like to have everyone stay at the version "THEY" are at or prefer......We have only heard this though at the following revisions:

IL2 Sturmovik to IL2 Forgotten Battles
1.0 to 1.10
1.10 to 1.11
1.11 to 1.21
1.21 to 1.22
1.22 to 2.00
2.00 to 2.01
2.01 to 2.02
2.02 to 2.03
2.03 to 2.04
2.04 to Pacific Fighters Merged 3.00m
PF 3.00 vs. PF 3.00m
3.00/m to 3.01/m
3.01/m to 3.02/m
3.02/m to 3.03/m
3.03/m to 3.04/m
3.04/m to 4.00/m
4.00/m to 4.01/m
4.01/m to 4.02/m
4.02/m to 4.03/m
4.03/m to 4.04/m
4.04m to 4.05m (PE2)

So in that the complaints of "I quit", "You're splitting the community" have gone on each of the above and any I missed, I sincerely expect to see them when;

4.05m to 4.06m
4.06m to 4.07m
Any other little fix patches in between......

and can't wait for the cry of injustice to ring out when all are eventually told;

"Good News!! today 1c/Maddox Games with support from UbiSoft presents...BoB the Battle of Britain with the most advanced blah blah blah...."

Look at all the effort above........and I don't know about you but I only had to pay for FB/AEP/PF/PE2........I don't get that much bang for the buck anywhere else......Sorry Dear (husbands are so sensitive http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

The situation with these Patches are quite different. First 4.04 AI is busted (even you mentioned how good 4.03 was I remember), 2nd and most important, 4.05 does not make life easy for some of us, especially if we wish to play online.

But I don`t you care much for that, since from your tone it seems you`ve decided to condemn anyone who doesn`t jump up and say, "It`s wonderful!"

willyvic
05-08-2006, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Why is............................




Noted. Don't agree with the notion that splitting the community whines were around during patch releases but will give you the whines when each new addon arrived.

WV.

Tooz_69GIAP
05-08-2006, 08:06 PM
Man, I am really sick of reading this nonsense about "why are paying for a patch?" " why are are we paying for one aircraft?" "Where is the patch to fix bug A and bug B, wah wah wah??"

Right, these add-ons were announced in Russia well over a year ago (probably longer than that) and were not going to be released outside the former USSR.

This was revealed to us here and we revolted and demanded that the add-ons be released worldwide. This was finally agreed on by 1C:MG and so we have received the first add-on.

The Peshka add-on gives us 2 different types of aircraft, the Pe-2 (4 variants) and the Pe-3 (2 variants), 4 really nice hand crafted offline campaigns, and a bunch of really really sexy new ground objects. All for the measly sum of around $18 USD (9.99 in the UK, which is nothing really - it's like 4 pints, or 2 packs of ***s!).

Now, how much would equivalent sims charge for something like this? Like FS2004 for example? Maybe $30-$40 dollars for ONE AIRCRAFT ONLY??

Also, look at what we already have - around 200 flyable aircraft, the majority of which we received FREE in various patches and add-ons, as well loads and loads of ground objects and campaigns, and so on.

Name me one developer which has supported their product over a lifespan of 6 years with such dedication to their fan base, rarely asking for any monetary reimbursement? The only things you've had to pay for are Forgotten Battles, Aces Expansion Pack, Pacific Fighters, and now the Peshka, Manchuria and VVS-46 add-ons. At full price in the UK, that would have cost you approximately 100, and with the next two add-ons, if they're the same price as the Peshka add-on, it will go up to probably 120. Make that 150 if you bought the Original IL-2 at the release price in the UK too. That's 25 per year you've paid to play this sim over the last 6 years!!! Is that really too much?

And BfHeFwMe, in the former USSR, these add-ons are being sold on CD, and you will find them in the larger cities such as Moscow, St Petersburg, Kiev, and so on.

Now, here's how it's gonna work from here on out, according to what has been posted here and elsewhere by people in the know:

There are two more add-ons coming in the next few months. The next one is going to be the Manchuria add-on, which will add the IL-10, the A-20C, some Japanese fighters and AI bombers, plus whatever ground objects may come with that, and a 1:1 map of Manchuria, with Vladivostok on the map, and I assume there will be a couple of campaigns in addition to this content.

There have been one or two bugs reported with the Peshka add-on, and Saqson has said that these will be fixed in the Manchuria add-on.

This will take the version to 4.06m and you will need the Peshka add-on (4.05m) to install the Manchuria add-on.

After this, there may be a patch containg a few aircraft and maps including Burma, Norway, Slovakia, and maybe an Italian dogfight map. The content has not been confirmed, but this is what has been posted about this so far. This will be 4.07m.

After this patch, the third and final paid add-on will be released, which is the VVS-46 add-on. In this will be a Ukrainian map around the area of Kiev, the Ar-234 Blitz bomber, the Ta-183, a few Russian jet-prop hybrid aircraft, and I think the MiG-9, as well as some ground objects, and I think a couple of "what if" campaigns(?). This will take the version to 4.08m.

If you don't like this, then I'll see ye in the next life. Otherwise, if you want to stay current quit yer moaning and fork over yer cash!!!

LEBillfish
05-08-2006, 08:16 PM
Actually SeaFire and willyvic you forget how there is always the call out of how difficult a patch or addon is to download for some players. Now I honestly feel for these folks in that they want to keep up yet the nature of dialup and the size of these patches is a beast. Yet often the call goes out from a few, I can't get it easily, so don't make the shift wanting others to accomodate.

Next comes the FM change crowd.....They master a particular FM, and AFTER the change state what garbage the new one is wanting everyone to revert back, this group often stating they "quit".

Any "pure patch" with nothing added (though those are few) is griped about from both groups above.....One having a reason for distress yet unreasonably asking others to stay....The others always having an upset of some form. However, the effort alone by 1c to address problems and continually try and improve the sim is lost on mostly the second group.....Sad to say but writing software my guess is not a cut and dry thing, so at times new code will conflict with remaining code and hence a bug.

However, 1c addresses them......many others do not...period. So "patches" from a dedicated developer is simply a nature of the beast.

Lastly, look through your readme's......You'll find the "pure patches" are few us almost always getting something if not a whole lot of somethings for the trouble......Heck in 4.03 or 04 we I believe recieved a whole bunch of new "default skins".

I'm not saying "quit complaining because it's wonderful".......I'm saying quit looking a gift horse in the mouth and bi*ching about a developer who has gone above and beyond to insure YOUR good time at little to no profit for them........Frankly we're damn lucky for anything we've gotten past the missing content of 3.0.......As it's my understanding maddox games did not get paid for it....4.0 a way to give yet get a little to keep their heads above water as well working with the BoB FM.

Point blank buy the damn thing......If you just got a single plane, you've been more then compensated for it in the past......Is the addon splitting the community?...Nope...Those that claim it is vowing "to not submit to the forced add on" are.

Where there is a will there is a way, an honest way....so find it.

willyvic
05-08-2006, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
Man, I am really sick of reading this nonsense about "why are paying for a patch?" " why are are we paying for one aircraft?" "Where is the patch to fix bug A and bug B, wah wah wah??"
----------------------------------------------
Sorry it's making you ill. Perhaps you should take something for it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
_______________________________________________



Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
...After this, there may be a patch containg a few aircraft and maps including Burma, Norway, Slovakia, and maybe an Italian dogfight map. The content has not been confirmed, but this is what has been posted about this so far. This will be 4.07m.

After this patch, the third and final paid add-on will be released, which is the VVS-46 add-on. In this will be a Ukrainian map around the area of Kiev, the Ar-234 Blitz bomber, the Ta-183, a few Russian jet-prop hybrid aircraft, and I think the MiG-9, as well as some ground objects, and I think a couple of "what if" campaigns(?). This will take the version to 4.08m.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Where can I read up on the 4.07 and 4.08? Can't seem to find it.
__________________________________________________ ______________
Thanks in advance,
WV.

willyvic
05-08-2006, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Actually SeaFire and willyvic you forget how there is always the call out of how difficult a patch or addon is to download for some players. Now I honestly feel for these folks in that they want to keep up yet the nature of dialup and the size of these patches is a beast. Yet often the call goes out from a few, I can't get it easily, so don't make the shift wanting others to accomodate....



I will take it that this portion was addressed to me and not the rest of it.

No, I didn't forget about the difficulties for some to download. But that never, i repeat never, kept the servers from changing over as soon as the new software was available. We were all playing the same version within a week of the release.

This time it is different. Take a look at hyperlobby.

Like it or not, at this time we are a split commmunity. 4.04m vs 4.05m.

I, along with you, hope that all get on board. But I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon.

Not here to argue or disagree. Was just wondering about any "fixes" we may need and how they would be handled.

Respectfully,
WV.

LEBillfish
05-08-2006, 08:42 PM
Fixes?......My guess is if someone refuses to move past 4.04 they have all they're going to get. Any subsequent "fix/patch/addon" will require you have all before it.....

Honestly, think about it.....If the sim was "backward compatible" or fixes/patches were made for every version....Then the community WOULD be split over 22 some odd versions due to whatever reason.....

Like it or not most are moving on.....Those that choose not to, more power to ya, enjoy 4.04. I however see no reason that I should not get what we ALL griped for, just because a few want it for free or can't won't find a way.

Who's being unfair to who?

ForkTailedDevil
05-08-2006, 08:43 PM
Somedays I can't belive the number of cheap people on here. $18 for an add-on that will allow you to add even more fantastic aircraft is incredibly cheap if you ask me. I would have paid that much for every patch since the release of PF. 1C is suddenly a "evil" company cause they want to charge $$$$ for a patch? So what does that make Microsoft? Or Wal-Mart??

AKA_TAGERT
05-08-2006, 08:47 PM
WOW
All this debate and hang wringing over spending $18US.

Flight simming is not a cheap hobby, never has been, never will be, so buy it or stfu and leave allready.

As for the onezie, twozie folks who can not use mommies credit card or dont know how to DL a file, they are a very small percentage of people and thier loss will in no way shape or form cause a split in the community. As a mater of fact, getting rid of those kiddies and smacktards might improve the community. Did you ever consider that? This could be a good thing! Think of it as a drivers test that cost $18US, it will keep the kids and bad drivers off the road and make life for the rest of us (read MOST OF US) better.

willyvic
05-08-2006, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Fixes?......My guess is if someone refuses to move past 4.04 they have all they're going to get. Any subsequent "fix/patch/addon" will require you have all before it.....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you are ok with the notion that any fixes for the current addon (4.05) are only going to be available by buying the next addon? And that subsequent addons will be dealt with in the same way?

Just doesn't seem right to me, paying for a fix. But I guess that's where we are.

And I may be arguing a moot point. Perhaps they will release the addons without any major bugs.


WV.

LEBillfish
05-08-2006, 09:28 PM
Sure I'm alright with it......as you're NOT JUST getting a fix......and as was pointed out by another there is going to be a free "fix" patch inbetween.

Frankly.....Be it whatever reason....I'm just missing the whole issue here.....as if I bought everyone who was complaining a copy of 4.05.....they'd be griping at the newcomers to get it....Funny how that works huh?

So "It's a matter of principle" just doesn't cut it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Tooz_69GIAP
05-08-2006, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by willyvic:
Where can I read up on the 4.07 and 4.08? Can't seem to find it.
__________________________________________________ ______________
Thanks in advance,
WV.

http://rrgstudios.com/

willyvic
05-08-2006, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by willyvic:
Where can I read up on the 4.07 and 4.08? Can't seem to find it.
__________________________________________________ ______________
Thanks in advance,
WV.

http://rrgstudios.com/ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the link Tooz. So if Manchuria will be 4.06 and 46 will be 4.08 where is the info about 4.07? Perhaps I am just blind.

Not trying to be an ***. Just want to read it for myself.

Thanks again,
WV.

VW-IceFire
05-08-2006, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by Brutal67:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
6) You just received couple of months ago FREE addon that contains ALOT of aircraft that could make paid addon with ease, but still you received it for free.

Okay sorry I understand now we are on a whole new level of corporate greed here. Yes I did recieve an add on with a number of new flyable AC. A few of which I enjoy being able to fly but my point is why not bundle all of these into add-ons. I bought FB, AEP, and PF and have recieved hours of enjoyment with them. I don't mind laying down another 30 dollars for even another expansion pack. What I do have a problem with is getting charged 20 dollars for each new "exclusive add-on". Essentially if I do not choose to buy this "exclusive add-on" there is no way that I will be able to patch my game to the latest version. So even if 1C releases 4.06 I must first purchase the "exclusive add-on" first.
Let's assume then that happens and then another "exclusive add-on" (heck lets call it what it really is it is a patch) is released that adds a flyable C6N Nakajima. Now this is an AC that few of us would have any interest in flying. But in order to keep our game up to date with the current version we will be forced to purchase. Especially if we are interested in any other future updates. This makes no sense other than a new level of corporate greed. I don't know if I am going to purchase any of these "exclusive add-ons" until I see how the future pans out here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The exact same thing happened with AEP, and then PF, and then the Pe-2 addon, and probably the IL-10 addon and probably the 1946 addon. Its no surprise or shock to the critical thinkers out there.

Corporate greed would be if they charged us $20 for every patch. We got alot of stuff FREE. FREE. I even got my Tempest free. I didn't pay to download it...the developer gave it to us. A beautiful and unexpected bonus. So it doesn't pain me in the slightest to pay for the addons to keep up. This is far better than $10 a month for a multiplayer game I may or may not have time for this month.

Even if I spend $60 on this game this year...I'm still way ahead of the game and I haven't spent a penny on this game since PF was released. Thats longevity!

Brutal67
05-08-2006, 10:12 PM
Okay so I get the point just buy the add on if you want to keep up. Just a little less food for a few weeks for a college student. Whats food anyways.
I wonder what all this does for someone new to flight sims. Its just unfortunate that 1C could not just complile these add-ons into a expansion pack. It would make the process of patching to the most recent version much easier.
By the way if 1C is out of ideas for an expansion pack I have several for them. Make the big bombers flyable. I would love to get behind the stick of B-17's, B-24's, and the B-29's. As well to man the turrets on those bad boys. Now that would be a nice expansion that I believe most of us would be willing to pay some good money for. A flyable TBF Avenger would as well be a most awsome addition. How is it that there are no US cruisers? That would be a nice ship to have. A few more maps of the western front would be great. An American campaign on the western front as well would be a nice add on. I purchased "The Last Days" and it was okay but I would really like to see what 1C could do with this if they set their mind to it.
I really don't mind throwing some money to 1C for all the hard work they do and the wonderful support they have given us over the years. It just would be nice to have this all condensed into a larger package. They just released that all in one DVD why couldn't they have included this in that package and bumped the price up a few dollars? That would have been much nicer than this.

Bearcat99
05-08-2006, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Brutal67:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
6) You just received couple of months ago FREE addon that contains ALOT of aircraft that could make paid addon with ease, but still you received it for free.

Okay sorry I understand now we are on a whole new level of corporate greed here. Yes I did recieve an add on with a number of new flyable AC. A few of which I enjoy being able to fly but my point is why not bundle all of these into add-ons. I bought FB, AEP, and PF and have recieved hours of enjoyment with them. I don't mind laying down another 30 dollars for even another expansion pack. What I do have a problem with is getting charged 20 dollars for each new "exclusive add-on". Essentially if I do not choose to buy this "exclusive add-on" there is no way that I will be able to patch my game to the latest version. So even if 1C releases 4.06 I must first purchase the "exclusive add-on" first.
Let's assume then that happens and then another "exclusive add-on" (heck lets call it what it really is it is a patch) is released that adds a flyable C6N Nakajima. Now this is an AC that few of us would have any interest in flying. But in order to keep our game up to date with the current version we will be forced to purchase. Especially if we are interested in any other future updates. This makes no sense other than a new level of corporate greed. I don't know if I am going to purchase any of these "exclusive add-ons" until I see how the future pans out here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This has nothing to do with greed. It was an add on. A paid add on. We all knew that. Greed would be trying to sell the thing for $29.99.... in fact greed would have been making say... 50% of the free stuff we got available only in a paid add on... that would be greed. This is a paid add on and either buy it or dont... but if the community gets split it wont be Oleg's , UBIs or 1Cs fault....

You have guys here griping about a $18 add on.. un real.

Lets see now..... a movie is what $8-$9... for two thats .... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif $18!!
How many times have you gone to see a movie you hated...... and you bought that overpriced garbage they call food too.... but does anyone hear you complaining about that?....

man o man this is getting so old....

NonWonderDog
05-09-2006, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Why is it every patch or add on we get this group that says "it is splitting the community"....Naturally that group being those that would like to have everyone stay at the version "THEY" are at or prefer......We have only heard this though at the following revisions:

IL2 Sturmovik to IL2 Forgotten Battles
1.0 to 1.10
1.10 to 1.11
1.11 to 1.21
1.21 to 1.22
1.22 to 2.00
2.00 to 2.01
2.01 to 2.02
2.02 to 2.03
2.03 to 2.04
2.04 to Pacific Fighters Merged 3.00m
PF 3.00 vs. PF 3.00m
3.00/m to 3.01/m
3.01/m to 3.02/m
3.02/m to 3.03/m
3.03/m to 3.04/m
3.04/m to 4.00/m
4.00/m to 4.01/m
4.01/m to 4.02/m
4.02/m to 4.03/m
4.03/m to 4.04/m
4.04m to 4.05m (PE2)


You forgot the unofficial 4.00 betas! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif You forgot the most rediculous example!

Tooz_69GIAP
05-09-2006, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by willyvic:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by willyvic:
Where can I read up on the 4.07 and 4.08? Can't seem to find it.
__________________________________________________ ______________
Thanks in advance,
WV.

http://rrgstudios.com/ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the link Tooz. So if Manchuria will be 4.06 and 46 will be 4.08 where is the info about 4.07? Perhaps I am just blind.

Not trying to be an ***. Just want to read it for myself.

Thanks again,
WV. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

4.07m is supposed to be a patch containing the maps created by Ian Boys & Co (Burma and Norway), and the Slovakia map done by Jurinko & Co. And possibly an Italian dogfight map, if it gets finished (I don't know the current status of that one).

But, it's not confirmed when this patch will be released. It may not be released until after the VVS-46 add-on, or it might be released before it. And the content is in no way confirmed either, but there is a good amount of aircraft that might possibly make the cut, and which may not.

I.E. Avia B.534, Fokker D.XXI, CW-21b, among others.

AKA_TAGERT
05-09-2006, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by Brutal67:
Okay so I get the point just buy the add on if you want to keep up. Just a little less food for a few weeks for a college student. Whats food anyways. If $20US is going to make or break your budget to the point you have to wonder about your next meal.. you have bigger issues in your real life and thus no time for gamming anyways

carguy_
05-09-2006, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by Brutal67: Make the big bombers flyable. I would love to get behind the stick of B-17's, B-24's, and the B-29's. As well to man the turrets on those bad boys. Now that would be a nice expansion that I believe most of us would be willing to pay some good money for. A flyable TBF Avenger would as well be a most awsome addition. How is it that there are no US cruisers? That would be a nice ship to have. A few more maps of the western front would be great.

Totally uninterested in this.People aren`t flying US only you know.For big part of those flying axis only the mentioned addon idea serves no value and would not be a good addon.People don`t like bombers,vast majority is not interested in flying them and certainly not willing to pay money for vast work needed to throw into bombers development.

You whine bout one $18 Russian addon cuz you`re not interested.Well to say the truth I`m not interested in any Western Front cuz I`ve seen it all plus adding western planes spoiled the sim big time.Nothing but P51/P38/50cal/Spitfire red whiteandblue yankee doodle threads.With the release of FB h3ll has been released and Oleg knew bout that.I had to pay for this cuz I wanted to play online so bad.I had to pay for AEP too but the amount of German/Russian content was satisfactory so I actually pomped cash into something I wanted.

Pacific front?Totally uninterested.I rarely fly any plane from that set.Never flew a Corsair sortie.Don`t plan to.But I had to pay for this too.

The only thing I wanted to pay was for LW/VVS content.All the rest of planeset with western planes I don`t care about.Normandy map is the worst available.




I really don't mind throwing some money to 1C for all the hard work they do and the wonderful support they have given us over the years. It just would be nice to have this all condensed into a larger package. They just released that all in one DVD why couldn't they have included this in that package and bumped the price up a few dollars? That would have been much nicer than this.

I agree(I think).I do not understand why MG released the Pe2 download because it`s harder to pay for one plane you`re not interested in.I`m also your average university student never having enough cash to not worry about stuff like food or train ticket.This Pe2 addon derailed my online flying and I`m done here trying to come up with $18.One moree month I`ll have it I wager.

IMO this should never be released as separate addon but in a tripack addon for like $30.I wanted to wait but that will happen in like September so I have to caugh up money earlier.

But hey!Wake up!That`s life.Nobody is gonna wait for you if you can`t get along.They will drop you like a bad habit if you can`t keep up.Somehow ppl here represent a thought that if you need money you WILL find a way to make so,independent of your present occupations.
MG is a profit company too and asks you to pay their workers so caugh up the $18 already.
People die from hunger on the streets and you think anyone cares bout you think or that maybe you can`t make money?Which dream world are you living in?


In upcomming two more addons I see no content of interest to me.Won`t fly any of those fantasy planes online.Who cares?Buy the addon ticket to online flying or not.
I treat it as a show that if you need to stay in it and have good fun with your passion pay admittance once a few months.

VV_Holdenb
05-09-2006, 02:00 AM
IMHO I think whats causing the precieved "split" on hyperlobby community
is the method by which we have to pay for and download/install rather than
the cost. Not everyone shops on-line or is able to shop on-line, or in some of my flying mates cases, really don't want to be forced into shopping on-line just to "keep up". Personally I would prefer to wait for a "bumper bundle" DVD /CD that could be purchased over the counter, regardless of how good the
content /cost of the next version.

alert_1
05-09-2006, 02:16 AM
Oleg (or SaQson, cant remeber) said that AI (AI planes energy preservation too good) will be corrected in "next" patch/addon (4.06-4.07). So even for offliners there's no way to not buy these addons. (not complaining though)

Bearcat99
05-09-2006, 04:21 AM
...... and for the record..Pe-2 is more than just one plane.

Missions
95 Campaign Missions
5 Single Missions
5 Multi-Player Cooperative Missions

New Flyable Aircraft
Pe-2, 1940 (1 series)
Pe-2, 1942 (84 series)
Pe-2, 1942 (110 series)
Pe-2, 1944 (359 series)
Pe-3, 1941
Pe-3 bis, 1941
New Ground Vehicles and Objects
61-K 37mm AAG
Flak 37
Flak 18 88mm AAG
SdKfz6 with Flak 37
Demag D7 with Flak 38
Demag D7
SdKfz6
ZiS-3 76,2 mm Div gun
Soviet 122mm Howitzer
ML-20 155mm gun
PAK-40 75mm ATG
Dummy Flak
Dummy Gun
Dummy Plane
Dummy Tank

GR142-Pipper
05-09-2006, 05:30 AM
Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
What you have to remember is that

1) Lots of people wanted a Pe-2 Respectfully, I find it hard to believe many wanted the Pe-2. It's safe to say that not many fly/care about bombers to begin with.

2) The community DEMANDED these add-ons be released in the west The only reason that this demand occurred was due to the fact that 4.04 owners couldn't play on 4.05 servers. This is the REAL reason most people have purchased this add-on. It can't be done without it.

3) This is the business model UbiSoft is using to distribute them, like it or not It would help if they gave their business model a little thought before implementing it. If you're going to ask the community to pay for an upgrade, no problem. Just make sure that the upgrade is worth it. The 4.05 upgrade was a joke and the Boontybox technique wasn't thoroughly QA'd. It took Luthier's manual install commentary to get many people up and running (me included).

4) The same situation is heppening in Russia, where the 3 add-ons are being released piece-meal as well
5) 1C:Maddox and UbiSoft are businesses and need to turn a profit to ensure their own survival, releasing the add-ons in this way ensures that. It only ensures that when they provide value-add. I'm actually glad to see Maddox finally shifting to a pay-as-you-go model but they should learn to pick their battles. Don't introduce your new fee-based model with an upgrade that is completely forgettable and that has actually SPLIT the limited group of people that play this game. Sending it to part of the community and not others was a completely idiotic move. Ubisoft's marketing is just about the weakest thing I've seen from a software company. These guys are rank amateurs and Maddox would do well to investigate other companies to distribute his games.

GR142-Pipper

GR142-Pipper
05-09-2006, 05:37 AM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
6) You just received couple of months ago FREE addon that contains ALOT of aircraft that could make paid addon with ease, but still you received it for free. You keep saying that and you don't seem to realize that getting something for free isn't necessarily doing anyone a favor. If things get provided for free they get valued at zero. They become expectations instead of something special. From a business perspective, it's just not a smart thing to do. Patches, yes; updates, no.

So when you say "Gee, we got it for free." it could very well be counter to the longterm health of the company...and it is.

First law of business: Make quality products and don't leave money on the table.

GR142-Pipper

ElAurens
05-09-2006, 05:49 AM
Pipper, on the servers I fly on lots of people fly bombers. Your statement is an opinion, nothing more.

Now the rest of you lot of whiners just get the bloody add on.

Why do we have to go through this every fricking time there is a version change?

I'd swear this is a tacky FPS from the responses of some of you loons.

GR142-Pipper
05-09-2006, 05:53 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
Pipper, on the servers I fly on lots of people fly bombers. Your statement is an opinion, nothing more. Sorry, it's more than just opinion. The number of people flying bombers is a very small fraction of those flying fighters. If you see even 5% of those who are on-line servers flying bombers it would be a lot.

GR142-Pipper

geoffspear
05-09-2006, 06:21 AM
Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
What you have to remember is that

1) Lots of people wanted a Pe-2 Respectfully, I find it hard to believe many wanted the Pe-2. It's safe to say that not many fly/care about bombers to begin with.

2) The community DEMANDED these add-ons be released in the west The only reason that this demand occurred was due to the fact that 4.04 owners couldn't play on 4.05 servers. This is the REAL reason most people have purchased this add-on. It can't be done without it.

GR142-Pipper </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

With respect, Pipper, the demands for the Russian addons date back much further than the release of the Pe-2. It was because of petitions like this one:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m...1082382/r/6671082382 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/6671082382/r/6671082382)

that it was released in the first place.

I share some of the misgivings people have expressed here, but it's only fair to point out the history.

Bearcat99
05-09-2006, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
6) You just received couple of months ago FREE addon that contains ALOT of aircraft that could make paid addon with ease, but still you received it for free. You keep saying that and you don't seem to realize that getting something for free isn't necessarily doing anyone a favor. If things get provided for free they get valued at zero. They become expectations instead of something special. From a business perspective, it's just not a smart thing to do. Patches, yes; updates, no.

So when you say "Gee, we got it for free." it could very well be counter to the longterm health of the company...and it is.

First law of business: Make quality products and don't leave money on the table.

GR142-Pipper </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So.... let me get this straight... you would rather have paid for all the free stuff.... ? Is that what you are saying?!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

It kills me.... people complain because.... marketing the add on to Russia only will.... split the community.. so we get it... after a gazillion multi page polls and "demnds" not to "split the community..." and now it's .... making it an add (as opposed tpo a path) on will split the community... as if they said... "Boy of boy do we have a nice patch coming to you!! It s got a Pe-2 and some other stuff... "

Not how it happened.... We knew it would be a pay add on and we clamored for it.. some of us even demanded it.... we know from past experiene that when new co tent other than just missions and skins is added... the version changes....period.. its a fact.. been that way since IL2... so WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE SO MANY OF YOU CRYING ABOUT!!!!

If Boonty is the issue then there are was around that and if it matters as much as some of you say then you can still do the right thing.... I just cant believe all the griping and moaning and whining and doomsday guff thats coming out about this add on.

UN FRICKIN REAL...... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif


I understand some folks on this issue.. and believe me there are some folks I know personally.. who although I dont agree with them I respect them tremendously because they are real about the whole deal.... no bones.. no BS.

I do tjhings the way I do them as far as this sim is concerned because thats what it means to me.... and I dont complain about new content.... even if I never touch it... even if I have to pay for it.... $18 is the cost of two movie tickets... If you haveever paid to see a movie that sucked.... or better yet bought software that sucked... raise your hand.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

Geeeeze Louise.. this place is incredible...

ForkTailedDevil
05-09-2006, 06:32 AM
Before I startded playing this game series I used to play a lot of console games. Wanna know how many patches exist for those games? Also before this series I used to play Aces over the Pacific and Europe no patches for them either. So getting dozens of free airplanes here and there and having to pay for a few airplanes doesn't bother me. Also I can't imagine why any WW2 airplane nut wouldn't pay $18 for nearly any plane including the Pe-2 & 3. I have never left the USA but I grew up reading about this plane since I was 10. I would pay $40 to fly it.

jasonbirder
05-09-2006, 06:33 AM
Respectfully, I find it hard to believe many wanted the Pe-2. It's safe to say that not many fly/care about bombers to begin with.

Pe2 was probably the most needed plane missing from the game both in terms of numbers...(10,000+ produced) length of service (1941 - 45) and in terms of where it fits in the game - a tactical ground attack eastern front airplane (remember this game used to be Il2 Sturmovik)


Sorry, it's more than just opinion. The number of people flying bombers is a very small fraction of those flying fighters. If you see even 5% of those who are on-line servers flying bombers it would be a lot.

Number of people flying on on-line servers is a very small fraction of people playing FB/AEP/PF, if onliners make up 5% of people flying then it would be alot...and remember us offliners can have loads more fun flying cr*p planes, flying bombers, flying ground attack campaigns...without having to worry about our online DF stats...

LEBillfish
05-09-2006, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
Sorry, it's more than just opinion. The number of people flying bombers is a very small fraction of those flying fighters. If you see even 5% of those who are on-line servers flying bombers it would be a lot.

GR142-Pipper

That is SOOOOOOoooooooooo wrong. First off, look at the nicks of those that fly online in fighters then note the nicks of those in threads about "B17's, 24's, 29's, Lancasters, etc......Next, see how many take out a fighter WITH a bomb loadout, drop their bombs but flew the fighter to either defend themselves or try and get a "grand slam" of points if you will.

Now fly some coops.....It's funny but the old vets here often take bombers wanting the challenge as the same old fighter encounters are simply routine.......Lastly fly in some orginized war events, bombers a must and many going out of their way to fly them.

Now granted, if you fly some dogfight server where the bases are close and folks are just pounding away for plane kill points wanting nothing but immediate action disregarding a "goal" or tactics and so on......Just what is essentially a mosh pit of a server....Well yes, fighters it is.

The theme 'of "this" sim is "ground attack"...Fighters there to escort and try to stop nothing more.....It's not called "who's the best fighter ace" for a reason.....More so, it's true to life in that if all fighters did was shoot down other fighters, then there is no reason for having them......

Fighters only exist for 2 reasons.....To escort bombers, transport and recon planes, or to kill bombers, transport and recon planes......Without them, fighters are worthless.

SeaFireLIV
05-09-2006, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:


Where there is a will there is a way, an honest way....so find it.

There`s so much waffle here I could respond to, but the easiest way to put it is...

Don`t try to teach me to suck eggs.



And just this thread proves evidence of the community beginning to split already...

LEBillfish
05-09-2006, 08:54 AM
Well S.F.IV.....sorry you're taking it so personal as it's not meant to be that way, yet in the end, just as you have the right to not go to 4.05, I and others have the right to move to 4.05. The world will continue to turn whether we want it to or not, seasons to change, and we're all getting older. Maddox Games have to make money to survive just as you and I do......So in the end, if we like it or not, for better or worse it's moving forward....Up to each of us to decide if we want to keep up. Yet never the less, it's moving on.

SeaFireLIV
05-09-2006, 09:02 AM
Well, maybe I sound rough, but I`ve had enough of a crappy day, yesterday, working hard, and then have to tell my kid off (which never pleases me), with the icing on the cake to get kicked from an online game for the nght cos I was the only one who didn`t have 4.05.

Like I said, I`m working on it.

Thursday will hopefully be the day.

AKA_TAGERT
05-09-2006, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
Pipper, on the servers I fly on lots of people fly bombers. Your statement is an opinion, nothing more.

Now the rest of you lot of whiners just get the bloody add on.

Why do we have to go through this every fricking time there is a version change?

I'd swear this is a tacky FPS from the responses of some of you loons. Agreed 100%

AKA_TAGERT
05-09-2006, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
You keep saying that and you don't seem to realize that getting something for free isn't necessarily doing anyone a favor. If things get provided for free they get valued at zero. They become expectations instead of something special. From a business perspective, it's just not a smart thing to do. Patches, yes; updates, no.

So when you say "Gee, we got it for free." it could very well be counter to the longterm health of the company...and it is.

First law of business: Make quality products and don't leave money on the table.

GR142-Pipper That is a good point.. So basicly Oleg has proved another long held saying.. Nice guys finish last. Sad, Oleg goes out of his way to GIVE us free stuff over the years, and then the smacktards use it againts him. I will never.. and actully glad that I dont understand these smacktards.

goshikisen
05-09-2006, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
Respectfully, I find it hard to believe many wanted the Pe-2. It's safe to say that not many fly/care about bombers to begin with.

From what vantage point do you venture this opinion? This is an add on designed for the Russian market that just happens to have become available to the West. Flight sim folks in St.Petersburg and Kiev would probably have a differing opinion than yourself on how important an addition the Pe-2 makes to a Russian product that basically had it's start simulating the Eastern Front.

AWL_Spinner
05-09-2006, 09:49 AM
Respectfully, I find it hard to believe many wanted the Pe-2. It's safe to say that not many fly/care about bombers to begin with.

Actually, a lot of us fly bombers. Just take a look at the average spread on Winds of War. LOTS of blue Ju-88 and He-111 flyers on servers with proper objectives, and LOTS of B-25 and now Pe-2 (much needed, fills a BIG mid/early war hole) flyers on Red.

A server with formations of bombers is a wonder to behold.

I've said it before and I'll no doubt say it again, I've bought every Maddox product available and STILL, in terms of hours played, this is BY FAR the best value gaming investment I've ever made.

I've probably spent whole MONTHS on this product for about 0.000001p an hour!

horseback
05-09-2006, 11:33 AM
I've read this thread with mild amusement. 'Corporate greed?' 'Divided community?' 'Starving college student?'

Please.

A couple more pages and someone's going to accuse someone else of being a nazi sympathizer.

Bottom line: is the downloadable expansion, with all the attendent aggravation of Boonty Box (and frankly, the name 'Boonty Box' seems designed to make an adult English speaker grind his teeth-altho I'm sure it sounds really cool in some other languages), worries about spyware/adware/malware, requirements for a credit card, the right OS, broadband or DSL, mysterious foreign exchange rates, and the international zionist/capitalist/antiAmerican/communist/(fill in your own boogey man) (pick one) conspiracy behind it all, worth your time and money?

I will eventually get this expansion. I'm hoping it will come in a more convenient format, so I'm waiting, not undermining anybody else's chance to get it, or demanding that everyone join me in a boycot.

If Oleg and Ubi see a reasonable chance to make a (well-deserved)profit by doing a final combo-disk with all three expansions, then I'll get it that way.

If they stick to their guns and stay with Boonty Box for the next two expansions, then I'll probably wait and get'em all at once, install, de-Boonty, and run a malware/adware/virus sweep.

But I will get it, I will get it legally (I can't face my kids otherwise), and I will pay Oleg for his product.

Eventually.

The rest of you can make your own choices, and I promise to make no judgements about people who get it legally, or who choose not to get it at all.

cheers

horseback

willyvic
05-09-2006, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:

It kills me.... people complain because.... marketing the add on to Russia only will.... split the community.. so we get it...

.... I just cant believe all the griping and moaning and whining and doomsday guff thats coming out about this add on.




For all:

But unfortunately now we do have a rift in the rank and file of the game. For whatever reason, it is there. Hyperlobby, for one, illustrates this. And the number of people who haven't upgraded is, by no means, not insignificant.

So ask yourself...why, with this particular addon, did this occur? Try and leave out personal opinions and come up with an objective answer. Then tackle the problem as a community. Someone must be listening. We got the addon.


Bottom line is that while a lot of people are tired of hearing the "gripes, moans, groans, and *****ing" I don't see any real effort on their/our part to resolve the fundamental issues. If there has been an effort it is lost amidst all the personal attack who-haw.



If you have nothing constructive to add bag it up and give it to the poor schmoe at the freeway onramp. They're used to getting **** from stangers.


WV.

GR142-Pipper
05-09-2006, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
So.... let me get this straight... you would rather have paid for all the free stuff.... ? Is that what you are saying?!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif Yes. Here's why as there are several reasons:

1. If the upgrades are paid for by the customer base more care and attention will be paid by the developers when delivering them. When released, the upgrades will be meaningful and worthwhile. If they're not people will cease paying for them; if they are, people won't mind doing so.

2. The developer will be rewarded with additional funds, some of which will be invested to improve such areas as better support, better quality assurance, more theater scenarios, better flight/damage modeling, etc.

3. Paid upgrades will allow the development team to have better stability in both their personal and professional lives as well as attract top programming and support talent to their organization.

4. It will strengthen the developer's relationship with the distributor (even things up) in determining how the distributor intends to market and distribute the developer's products. In addition, successful products often interest other distributors to also consider marketing the developer's products. This facilitates a better revenue split as well as opens new markets that may not be presently served.

5. Paying for upgrades (not bug patches) is what successful software companies do and is a reasonable business expectation.

At the end of the day, by charging a fair price for the initial product and then the upgrades the developers as well as the customer base benefit. The developers and distributors make money and have sufficient resources to produce/support quality products and we get to enjoy these better products over the long haul. In addition, the likelihood that the developers will remain in business AND the distributors will remain interested in this product segment are greatly increased.

This is a business and needs to be run as a business...not as a software soup kitchen.

GR142-Pipper

GR142-Pipper
05-09-2006, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
Sorry, it's more than just opinion. The number of people flying bombers is a very small fraction of those flying fighters. If you see even 5% of those who are on-line servers flying bombers it would be a lot.

GR142-Pipper


That is SOOOOOOoooooooooo wrong. First off, look at the nicks of those that fly online in fighters then note the nicks of those in threads about "B17's, 24's, 29's, Lancasters, etc......Next, see how many take out a fighter WITH a bomb loadout, drop their bombs but flew the fighter to either defend themselves or try and get a "grand slam" of points if you will. Respectfully, I'm not wrong. You can go to virtually ANY on-line server and the fighers will vastly outnumber the bombers. It's not even at all close. You're entitled to our opinion but I'm right on this one.

GR142-Pipper

Brutal67
05-09-2006, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by willyvic:

For all:

But unfortunately now we do have a rift in the rank and file of the game. For whatever reason, it is there. Hyperlobby, for one, illustrates this. And the number of people who haven't upgraded is, by no means, not insignificant.

So ask yourself...why, with this particular addon, did this occur? Try and leave out personal opinions and come up with an objective answer. Then tackle the problem as a community. Someone must be listening. We got the addon.


Bottom line is that while a lot of people are tired of hearing the "gripes, moans, groans, and *****ing" I don't see any real effort on their/our part to resolve the fundamental issues. If there has been an effort it is lost amidst all the personal attack who-haw.



If you have nothing constructive to add bag it up and give it to the poor schmoe at the freeway onramp. They're used to getting **** from stangers.


WV.

This is the part of the point I was trying to get at only you stated it much more eloquently than I did. Thats why I made the suggestion that these small add-ons should be held on by 1C and then released as expansion packs. If they are worried about distribution cost then bump the price up to off set the costs. What I don't want is to have to continue to purchase these small add ons every month or two. Just think if 1C had compiled this add on with the sale of its "Complete Edition DVD" (which isnt so complete now) we would not even be having this discussion. But I venture to guess that having it included on the Complete Edition DVD would have made numerous people much happier.
Does anyone else have any suggestions on how these "add ons" should be marketed? Are you ready to just open your wallets every month or two and hand over 20 dollars? Or would you rather 1C hold on to the add-ons and release them every six months for 40 to 60 dollars? I would prefer the latter myself.

GR142-Pipper
05-09-2006, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
You keep saying that and you don't seem to realize that getting something for free isn't necessarily doing anyone a favor. If things get provided for free they get valued at zero. They become expectations instead of something special. From a business perspective, it's just not a smart thing to do. Patches, yes; updates, no.

So when you say "Gee, we got it for free." it could very well be counter to the longterm health of the company...and it is.

First law of business: Make quality products and don't leave money on the table.

GR142-Pipper That is a good point.. So basicly Oleg has proved another long held saying.. Nice guys finish last. Sad, Oleg goes out of his way to GIVE us free stuff over the years, and then the smacktards use it againts him. I will never.. and actully glad that I dont understand these smacktards. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Tagart, you need to look at this in the long term. It's not about being "nice". It's about being able to survive. If you give people things for free, they EXPECT them to be free and, while appreciated, they get increasingly valued at zero and become an expectation.

You have to understand that I WANT Maddox to survive because I enjoy playing his game. That's the spirit in which my remarks are made. Simple as that. It's not that nice guys finish last, Tagart. It's that nice guys who don't know how to run a business often do.

GR142-Pipper

BaronUnderpants
05-09-2006, 02:51 PM
Dont know how to put this in a way so that the " be greateful for everything and anything, u got alot for free, qaugh up the 20$ u stingy bastar`d" - people will understand.

The basic problem is: I would gladly pay for the last add on http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I do not wanna pay for PE-2 addon however. Never asked for another bomber and couldnt care less if i can fly it or not.

But as it is now me and many with me will be forced to pay for a version just to be able to upgrade to later and maby more intresting versions, and more importantly new paches.

Why not just keep it simple and smack all 3 addons togheter....seems to me people would be more than happy to pay 30-40$ or whatever for a addon with some meat on the bones instead of just the bones like in PE-2 addon.

As fars as splitting the online community, its allredy happend..its a fact, and no amount of " cough up the bucks u cheap git" will ever change that....and it will proppably only get worse as the 2 upcomming addons arrives.

It has nothing to do with being stingy, get atleast the fact straight.

On the other hand, in 6-12 months all this wont matter since most of us proppably upgraded to the latest addon/pach ( exept those who wont bother with all the hazzle and moves on to some other game all togheter )...but till then its gonna be a rocky flight.

And to Oleg & Co: I feel for u, i really do..its like running a kindergarten, no matter what u do the kids will scream and stomp their feets in the ground. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Bearcat99
05-09-2006, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by willyvic:
But unfortunately now we do have a rift in the rank and file of the game. For whatever reason, it is there. Hyperlobby, for one, illustrates this. And the number of people who haven't upgraded is, by no means, not insignificant.
So ask yourself...why, with this particular addon, did this occur? Try and leave out personal opinions and come up with an objective answer. Then tackle the problem as a community. Someone must be listening. We got the addon.
Bottom line is that while a lot of people are tired of hearing the "gripes, moans, groans, and *****ing" I don't see any real effort on their/our part to resolve the fundamental issues. If there has been an effort it is lost amidst all the personal attack who-haw.
If you have nothing constructive to add bag it up and give it to the poor schmoe at the freeway onramp. They're used to getting **** from stangers.
WV.

Is that ..... a triple negative..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

I dont quite get your post in relation to the quote from me.. I have offered sever tidbits of constructive advice that are there for those who care to look.. as for personal attacks... I am totally cluerless as to what you are referring to there.. I havent made one of those in a long... long time.. and the last time I did.. it was more than deserved.

and Pip.. I hear ya.. but the bottom line is all the free stuff was free... and Pe-2 isnt... People are grown and they do what they want... all I can control or judge is myself... and so in my small mind.... $18 isnt a lot to pay for this add on. And the whole Boonty protest is a moot point.... You can get rid of Boonty... or if you really want to do the right thing and I might have to ban myself for insinuating this..... but there are other ways to get this add on and still pay for it.. without Boonty... You can go to UBI and buy the thing .. pay for it.. and never open it up and still have it on your HD. Read between the lines. If you want to do the right thing then you can.

$20 is not a lot to pay for this addon. Just flight sells single planes that cant shoot, cant bomb.... they just fly around at modern airports.... Whhoop tee doo.. just what I want to do in my Mustang.... we all know that somewhere between these add ons there will be at least one or two patches.... if for bug fixes alone... it isnt like we have no precedent... thats why I am just floored by all the http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif and the http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif and the http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif.... I know it is impossible to ever see everyone doing this.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif
..... even with the best of stuff there are always those who will just not be happy... but I am really surprised the level of the lack of creativity in dealing with the issues around this addon. I had issues and you know I was there on day one.... and as soon as I got them worked out I did the right thing. Just do the rignt thing and enjoy yourself.

I tell ya one thing.. I bet we dont get as much free stuff with BoB as we did with this series... I bet we taught Oleg very very well... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

VW-IceFire
05-09-2006, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Brutal67:
Okay so I get the point just buy the add on if you want to keep up. Just a little less food for a few weeks for a college student. Whats food anyways.
I wonder what all this does for someone new to flight sims. Its just unfortunate that 1C could not just complile these add-ons into a expansion pack. It would make the process of patching to the most recent version much easier.
By the way if 1C is out of ideas for an expansion pack I have several for them. Make the big bombers flyable. I would love to get behind the stick of B-17's, B-24's, and the B-29's. As well to man the turrets on those bad boys. Now that would be a nice expansion that I believe most of us would be willing to pay some good money for. A flyable TBF Avenger would as well be a most awsome addition. How is it that there are no US cruisers? That would be a nice ship to have. A few more maps of the western front would be great. An American campaign on the western front as well would be a nice add on. I purchased "The Last Days" and it was okay but I would really like to see what 1C could do with this if they set their mind to it.
I really don't mind throwing some money to 1C for all the hard work they do and the wonderful support they have given us over the years. It just would be nice to have this all condensed into a larger package. They just released that all in one DVD why couldn't they have included this in that package and bumped the price up a few dollars? That would have been much nicer than this.
Now your talking more sense! Its not a conspiracy but its not a very well executed campaign either.

If I were in charge...which I'm not...I would be doing much of what you just said there. Everyones been asking for a B-17 flyable for ages so I would have got maybe some third party folks together, paid some money for the contract to do it, and sell the thing. If done right...you'd bring in some holdouts from the old B-17 games that people still play because there's nothing better. If I were in charge, I would hold on releasing the addon packages till all 3 were finished and release them in a whitebox release. Most aviation folks don't care too much if the product has a flashy cover or not so do it right. Make it available in online store form only and ship it out. Amazon, GoGamer, that sort of thing...most of those companies have a far better online distribution system than one software publishers online store.

That all would have been much nicer, much simpler, and far more appealing to virtually everyone here. But nobody in the corporate world listens to the likes of us because we're far too practical http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

goshikisen
05-09-2006, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
You have to understand that I WANT Maddox to survive because I enjoy playing his game. That's the spirit in which my remarks are made. Simple as that. It's not that nice guys finish last, Tagart. It's that nice guys who don't know how to run a business often do.

GR142-Pipper

Pipper,

Did you bring up these concerns when the free add-ons were being distributed? Oleg has always done things a bit differently; if he were to follow accepted business practices then this series would be something entirely different than what it is... and no matter what anyone says this series is exceptional in comparison to it's competition. It may not be perfect but I like Oleg's grassroots way of doing things... he can't please everyone all the time but he also isn't a detached corporation that does things as they "ought" to be done.

To be honest I haven't always agreed with this way of doing things. I thought Pacific Fighters was botched... I guess I've just grown to realize that this series is unconventional in more ways than one. It won't ever be perfect but it makes an honest effort.

Bearcat99
05-09-2006, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by goshikisen:
Did you bring up these concerns when the free add-ons were being distributed? Oleg has always done things a bit differently; if he were to follow accepted business practices then this series would be something entirely different than what it is... and no matter what anyone says this series is exceptional in comparison to it's competition. It may not be perfect but I like Oleg's grassroots way of doing things... he can't please everyone all the time but he also isn't a detached corporation that does things as they "ought" to be done.

To be honest I haven't always agreed with this way of doing things. I though Pacific Fighters was botched... I guess I've just grown to realize that this series is unconventional in more ways than one. It won't ever be perfect but it makes an honest effort.

Exactly... and with it's imperfections... if you look at the way we have beenn treated overall.... the quality of what we have here.... that is where my loyalty comes from. This series is the only piece of software that wasnt an OS that I felt that I actually got what I paid for and more. Thats why most of havebeen flying it for years.... let me ask this.... how many other titles do you have that you have been playing since 2002? Hmmmm that looks like a thread....

GR142-Pipper
05-09-2006, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by goshikisen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
You have to understand that I WANT Maddox to survive because I enjoy playing his game. That's the spirit in which my remarks are made. Simple as that. It's not that nice guys finish last, Tagart. It's that nice guys who don't know how to run a business often do.

GR142-Pipper

Pipper,

Did you bring up these concerns when the free add-ons were being distributed? Oleg has always done things a bit differently; if he were to follow accepted business practices then this series would be something entirely different than what it is... and no matter what anyone says this series is exceptional in comparison to it's competition. It may not be perfect but I like Oleg's grassroots way of doing things... he can't please everyone all the time but he also isn't a detached corporation that does things as they "ought" to be done.

To be honest I haven't always agreed with this way of doing things. I thought Pacific Fighters was botched... I guess I've just grown to realize that this series is unconventional in more ways than one. It won't ever be perfect but it makes an honest effort. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Goshikisen and Bearcat:

I think that there's some confusion between Maddox and Company's work (programming) and good business practice. The two are entirely different and separate but they have not been treated so in this discussion. Yes, I have posted in prior days that I thought it was counterproductive to offer free updates and I stick with that assertion for the reasons that I have previously cited. Interestingly, I also agree with you that the series would be something different than it is today...but from a business perspective and not from a programming one. Again, keep in mind that it does none of us any good to receive free upgrades if it puts the developer under too much fiscal pressure. Restaurants that offer too many free lunches don't last long.

Do you see what I'm getting at here? It has nothing to do whatsoever with the quality of Maddox work (quite good) or with his generosity as an individual. It has only to do with maintaining a viable business.

GR142-Pipper

AKA_TAGERT
05-09-2006, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
Tagart, you need to look at this in the long term. It's not about being "nice". It's about being able to survive. If you give people things for free, they EXPECT them to be free and, while appreciated, they get increasingly valued at zero and become an expectation.

You have to understand that I WANT Maddox to survive because I enjoy playing his game. That's the spirit in which my remarks are made. Simple as that. It's not that nice guys finish last, Tagart. It's that nice guys who don't know how to run a business often do.

GR142-Pipper Well yes and no.

Your correct that *some* people will devalue the product if it is for free, those are typically very selfish me me me ignorant people who don€t have a clue about what goes into this, or any software. On the other hand, there are people that do appreciate it, and don€t devalue it for being free. For these people getting something for free, of this quality, builds a grass roots support for the sim and sim maker and creates a following, which hopefully will serve the sim maker in the long run.

So, business wise it depends.. Clearly Oleg was banking on the later, problem is I think he is wrong and your perspective will be the prevailing one for one simple fact.. The selfish me me me ignorant groups tend to out number the non-selfish non-me me me non-ignorant groups.

AKA_TAGERT
05-09-2006, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by BaronUnderpants:
Dont know how to put this in a way so that the " be greateful for everything and anything, u got alot for free, qaugh up the 20$ u stingy bastar`d" - people will understand.

The basic problem is: I would gladly pay for the last add on http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I do not wanna pay for PE-2 addon however. Never asked for another bomber and couldnt care less if i can fly it or not.

But as it is now me and many with me will be forced to pay for a version just to be able to upgrade to later and maby more intresting versions, and more importantly new paches.

Why not just keep it simple and smack all 3 addons togheter....seems to me people would be more than happy to pay 30-40$ or whatever for a addon with some meat on the bones instead of just the bones like in PE-2 addon.

As fars as splitting the online community, its allredy happend..its a fact, and no amount of " cough up the bucks u cheap git" will ever change that....and it will proppably only get worse as the 2 upcomming addons arrives.

It has nothing to do with being stingy, get atleast the fact straight.

On the other hand, in 6-12 months all this wont matter since most of us proppably upgraded to the latest addon/pach ( exept those who wont bother with all the hazzle and moves on to some other game all togheter )...but till then its gonna be a rocky flight.

And to Oleg & Co: I feel for u, i really do..its like running a kindergarten, no matter what u do the kids will scream and stomp their feets in the ground. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif see what I mean

GR142-Pipper
05-09-2006, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Well yes and no.

Your correct that *some* people will devalue the product if it is for free, those are typically very selfish me me me ignorant people who don€t have a clue about what goes into this, or any software. On the other hand, there are people that do appreciate it, and don€t devalue it for being free. For these people getting something for free, of this quality, builds a grass roots support for the sim and sim maker and creates a following, which hopefully will serve the sim maker in the long run. Noble indeed but it doesn't pay the bills. Remember, our market is a very niche one to begin with so it's even more critical that good business practices be implemented.


So, business wise it depends.. Clearly Oleg was banking on the later, problem is I think he is wrong and your perspective will be the prevailing one for one simple fact.. The selfish me me me ignorant groups tend to out number the non-selfish non-me me me non-ignorant groups. Yes they do and this reality can't be ignored.

Going forward, what I hope comes to be is a coherent program for the release of substantive yet reasonably priced upgrades in the future. Properly done, all parties benefit. Time will tell. (fingers crossed)

GR142-Pipper

GR142-Pipper
05-09-2006, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
and Pip.. I hear ya.. but the bottom line is all the free stuff was free... and Pe-2 isnt... People are grown and they do what they want... all I can control or judge is myself... and so in my small mind.... $18 isnt a lot to pay for this add on. And the whole Boonty protest is a moot point.... You can get rid of Boonty... or if you really want to do the right thing and I might have to ban myself for insinuating this..... but there are other ways to get this add on and still pay for it.. without Boonty... You can go to UBI and buy the thing .. pay for it.. and never open it up and still have it on your HD. Read between the lines. If you want to do the right thing then you can. I think we're in violent agreement. The $18 is meaningless to me and I have no problem purchasing the 4.05 update (which I have done). I would just like to ensure that more of them are available in the future and a sound business model on the part of the developer would help facilitate that.

GR142-Pipper

AKA_TAGERT
05-09-2006, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
Noble indeed but it doesn't pay the bills. Roger, like I said, nice guys tend to finish last


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:Remember, our market is a very niche one to begin with so it's even more critical that good business practices be implemented. Remember? Dood, the fact that it is a niche market is the only reason Oleg's approach is working for him! Say what you will about the future.. guess all you want.. But to date, IL2 is one of the longest lasting flight sims, if not the longest lasting flight sim to hit the market!! Name one other flight sim maker that is selling add-ons 5+ years after the initial release? So, you may be right about the devalue of it.. but up to now Oleg's method has worked and worked well.


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
Yes they do and this reality can't be ignored. True, but that reality is more of a general large scale public.. but.. as you pointed out.. flight sims is a small niche market.. So who knows.. only thing for sure is that up to now Oleg's method of giving free stuff in-between paid add-ons has worked very well.


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
Going forward, what I hope comes to be is a coherent program for the release of substantive yet reasonably priced upgrades in the future. Properly done, all parties benefit. Time will tell. (fingers crossed)

GR142-Pipper You guess is as good as mine.. but at this point it is too close to call.. time is the real enemy of any game.. Sooner or later someone will make a better flight sim that everyone will move too.. Funny thing is that someone will probably be Oleg and all his loyal followers that received free stuff from him will BUY his new product.. Therefore there is value in free.. in that it builds a loyal base of buyers

LEBillfish
05-09-2006, 11:49 PM
I'm really missing something here....

Now this has shifted to "Oleg has given us so much for absolutly free, that we all loved, and want to fly the sim desperately hence our vehement griping..........That we're now going to teach him a lesson for selling us something at very little cost, that multiple threads were made about demanding that it be released outside Russia....To the point some even have had it in their forum sigantures......."

"So now we'll punish him, demanding it for free, stating he's destroying the sim if he doesn't make it so by splitting the community.....However.....We do this to force him to learn to charge us at every turn for everything.....p.s. I cannot afford $18 so I'll not buy it.....some openly stating they'll steal it"



You have got to be kidding me........that is the biggest heap of ungrateful self justifying BS I have EVER heard in my life....This has gone beyond pathetic to downright punk bunk.

What a waste of time these threads are...tell ya what....don't buy it....I'd rather not see those that follow this philosophy on the servers, any who are, having openly refused to buy it...well, it becomes rather clear.

AKA_TAGERT
05-10-2006, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
I'm really missing something here....

Now this has shifted to "Oleg has given us so much for absolutly free, that we all loved, and want to fly the sim desperately hence our vehement griping..........That we're now going to teach him a lesson for selling us something at very little cost, that multiple threads were made about demanding that it be released outside Russia....To the point some even have had it in their forum sigantures......."

"So now we'll punish him, demanding it for free, stating he's destroying the sim if he doesn't make it so by splitting the community.....However.....We do this to force him to learn to charge us at every turn for everything.....p.s. I cannot afford $18 so I'll not buy it.....some openly stating they'll steal it"



You have got to be kidding me........that is the biggest heap of ungrateful self justifying BS I have EVER heard in my life....This has gone beyond pathetic to downright punk bunk.

What a waste of time these threads are...tell ya what....don't buy it....I'd rather not see those that follow this philosophy on the servers, any who are, having openly refused to buy it...well, it becomes rather clear. Agreed 100%

Bearcat99
05-10-2006, 05:46 AM
UBIs questionable policies have never been in question... but for me UBI is a side issue.... for me it is all about being treated by a developer like I have never been treated before. So in my again small little mind.... I want the people who have worked hard to bring this sim to the point it is .. to get paid for thier work.. so that they will be able tokeep on doing it.

The bottom line is if you want to support the sim.. if you want to stay current yiouy will get the add on... if not then dont. But I am willing to put down money that 95% of the folks who fly FB4.04 now will eventually wind up at 5.0.

I realize that many of the "dissenters" for lack of a better term feel the same way.... but thier pissed at UBI... but it isnt about UBI. UBI is just a part of it. So I can suck up that part for the more important part which is 1C and now RRG.... and as far as those who say "I aint buyin it.. I dont want a bobmer.. never asked for another one .. he should fix XXX.. blah blah blah.... " Well that of course is your perogative.... but the coding of ther sim is such that in order for people to be able to fly toghether online they have to have the same sim content wise otherwise there will be glitches. This code is not such that ... if you dont have the right version then the stuff just wont show up.. can you imagine that.....LMAO.. I get in a Pe-2 and go into a 4.04 server... and kill everybody.. because they dont see me... they dont have my plane..... LOL that would never work.. and then you would have a whole different round of http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif The bottom line is... if you want to support the sim and keep the stuff coming you will suppport 1C and RRG when you can. Thats really the bottom line.... either you will or you wont....

This sim has revolutionized flight sims... and set developer consumer <span class="ev_code_RED">r</span>elations on a whole nother level... Dont prove Oleg & 1C wrong in actually GAF about thier customer base enough to provide them with a consistently high quality product and maintaining a solid relationship with said base.... Do you know who the developers are by name of any other software you run... other than the MS stuff... and we all know about that unwieldly behemoth....

Just my two cents... or is that what... a dime now? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Xiolablu3
05-10-2006, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
I'm really missing something here....

Now this has shifted to "Oleg has given us so much for absolutly free, that we all loved, and want to fly the sim desperately hence our vehement griping..........That we're now going to teach him a lesson for selling us something at very little cost, that multiple threads were made about demanding that it be released outside Russia....To the point some even have had it in their forum sigantures......."

"So now we'll punish him, demanding it for free, stating he's destroying the sim if he doesn't make it so by splitting the community.....However.....We do this to force him to learn to charge us at every turn for everything.....p.s. I cannot afford $18 so I'll not buy it.....some openly stating they'll steal it"



You have got to be kidding me........that is the biggest heap of ungrateful self justifying BS I have EVER heard in my life....This has gone beyond pathetic to downright punk bunk.

What a waste of time these threads are...tell ya what....don't buy it....I'd rather not see those that follow this philosophy on the servers, any who are, having openly refused to buy it...well, it becomes rather clear. Agreed 100% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed 200%

Xiolablu3
05-10-2006, 06:26 AM
Lots of bomber pilots where I fly, I'm not such a bad ground pounder myself with that Me110 37mm cannon. Can snipe a tank every couple of passes. Give me fighter cover for ten minutes over the enemy tanks and I can take them all out.

ALso bombing in the B25 and A20/ Ju88 or He111 is the only way to win some maps.

On the servers I play on there are fighter pilots who actually cover the bombers and bomber pilots who are greatful. It all adds up to a wicked game in historical scenario maps. The whole planeset is used on the servers I play on.

Brutal67
05-10-2006, 07:09 AM
You could also argue that the "free updates" with extra content also is what contributed to the ongoing sucess of this game. Every few months there would be a new breath of life given to the game. Would we all still be here today if there had not been any updated content since the release of Pacific Fighters? What makes it so wrong to expect that 1C continues its offering of "free updates?" I purchased FB when released, AEP, PF, and the Complete Edition. I did not have to purchase the complete edition of course but wanted the ease of installing. So I have paid for this game twice now. I think it is important as well to remember that every individuals financial situation is different. I think that is one thing that is really irritating with many of the posts in this thread. I don't have a money tree and I have to be somewhat frugal in what I buy. So therefore I do not believe that it wrong for me to expect good content for what I buy? I can already image that somewhere probably 9 months to a year from now a Platnium Edition DVD release that will include the FB, AEP, PF, PE2, Manchuria, and whatever the last addon is. When that happens I will yet again pay for the ease of install and contribute.

jasonbirder
05-10-2006, 09:53 AM
Does anyone else have any suggestions on how these "add ons" should be marketed? Are you ready to just open your wallets every month or two and hand over 20 dollars? Or would you rather 1C hold on to the add-ons and release them every six months for 40 to 60 dollars? I would prefer the latter myself

Mmmm...whats the difference between $20 every couple of months for 3 spererate add ons and $60 for all three lumped together after 6 months?
I'm all for releasing them as soon as they're ready I got Pe2 as soon as it was released and cannot wait for the Il10/Manchuria content so i'm wholly against them delaying release...

goshikisen
05-10-2006, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
This sim has rtevolutionized flight sims... and set developer consumer *******ns on a whole nother level...

Developer-Consumer *******ns... now there's something new. Would this be a value-added service? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

triad773
05-10-2006, 10:18 AM
GEEZ... there is so much unhappiness here I can't read it all. When it comes down to it, really here's my only and main gripe, if you could call it that: aside from those who are describing the troubles with BoontyBox, it would help to have the order page be in english; maybe easier to find, where you'd expect it, like in the Ubi.com store on line (I couldn't find it looking under PC games,) and offer the option of paying in USD, or even Canadian Dollars. I understand that momentum is slowly sweeping the community toward 4.05. I only wish it were a little easier.

Thats my two cents: no flaming or complaining, really was just surprized that it was so diffucult to get. But I like many others will get it in time. Maybe this first time with Boonty will work the kinks out and the next two will go smoother (we can hope).

<Edit: saw Ivans Install guide. Will try later today.>

~S~ to all.

Triad

Tooz_69GIAP
05-10-2006, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by triad773:
it would help to have the order page be in english

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Erm, since when wasn't it in english? Try going to the UK Ubi site, and you will find it in english.

Bearcat99
05-10-2006, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by goshikisen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
This sim has rtevolutionized flight sims... and set developer consumer *******ns on a whole nother level...

Developer-Consumer *******ns... now there's something new. Would this be a value-added service? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO.. yeah I just noticed that.. I thought it best to leave it for a hoot...

bhunter2112
05-10-2006, 11:20 AM
put all three of the addons on a DVD/CD in a plain jane case like the complete and sell on UBI and a few other sites like gogamer. This is a plea to do what is best for the game.

horseback
05-10-2006, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by goshikisen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
This sim has rtevolutionized flight sims... and set developer consumer *******ns on a whole nother level...

Developer-Consumer *******ns... now there's something new. Would this be a value-added service? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Now, that's what I call a true stroke of marketing genius!

cheers

horseback

MrMojok
05-10-2006, 11:43 AM
Just to clarify:

My main concern at this point in time is fixing the AI strangeness. So there are two options here: go ahead and get the 4.05 Pe2 addon, and wait for a 4.06 patch that might bring the AI back down to earth, so to speak....

The other option would be back-patching to 4.03 and stay there. If I do that, obviously I will never be flying online, and will miss all the new planes and maps, which will eventually result in my not being able to play new offline campaigns that people have made, because by that time they will have used planes or ground objects from 4.05/4.06/4.07.

Is this all correct?

LEBillfish
05-10-2006, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by goshikisen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
This sim has rtevolutionized flight sims... and set developer consumer *******ns on a whole nother level...

Developer-Consumer *******ns... now there's something new. Would this be a value-added service? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that just blows, how come I always get left out around here. After all I've done to be a devoted "fangoil" I come to find out everyone else gets this "value-added service"! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Oh well, being I think all men work for this sim enjoy your service... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BaronUnderpants
05-10-2006, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaronUnderpants:
Dont know how to put this in a way so that the " be greateful for everything and anything, u got alot for free, qaugh up the 20$ u stingy bastar`d" - people will understand.

The basic problem is: I would gladly pay for the last add on http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I do not wanna pay for PE-2 addon however. Never asked for another bomber and couldnt care less if i can fly it or not.

But as it is now me and many with me will be forced to pay for a version just to be able to upgrade to later and maby more intresting versions, and more importantly new paches.

Why not just keep it simple and smack all 3 addons togheter....seems to me people would be more than happy to pay 30-40$ or whatever for a addon with some meat on the bones instead of just the bones like in PE-2 addon.

As fars as splitting the online community, its allredy happend..its a fact, and no amount of " cough up the bucks u cheap git" will ever change that....and it will proppably only get worse as the 2 upcomming addons arrives.

It has nothing to do with being stingy, get atleast the fact straight.

On the other hand, in 6-12 months all this wont matter since most of us proppably upgraded to the latest addon/pach ( exept those who wont bother with all the hazzle and moves on to some other game all togheter )...but till then its gonna be a rocky flight.

And to Oleg & Co: I feel for u, i really do..its like running a kindergarten, no matter what u do the kids will scream and stomp their feets in the ground. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif see what I mean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Clearify would u please.

Wich category do i fall under according to u?

Viper2005_
05-10-2006, 02:00 PM
Thread summary:

You can't please all of the people all of the time.

justflyin
05-10-2006, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
Thread summary:

You can't please all of the people all of the time.

And sadly enough, some around here wouldn't even be pleased if Oleg himself hand-delivered each patch/upgrade/add-on directly to their door, moments after release, installed it, tweaked it and gave them flight tips, for FREE.

Bearcat99
05-10-2006, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by goshikisen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
This sim has rtevolutionized flight sims... and set developer consumer *******ns on a whole nother level...

Developer-Consumer *******ns... now there's something new. Would this be a value-added service? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that just blows, how come I always get left out around here. After all I've done to be a devoted "fangoil" I come to find out everyone else gets this "value-added service"! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

RELATIONS..... RELATIONS....... geeeze...
cant even make a typo around here.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

but if value added is what you are looking for.... from what I have seen.... that line would get pret-ty long pret-ty quick..... and it would move very very slowly...

willyvic
05-11-2006, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by willyvic:
But unfortunately now we do have a rift in the rank and file of the game. For whatever reason, it is there. Hyperlobby, for one, illustrates this. And the number of people who haven't upgraded is, by no means, not insignificant.
So ask yourself...why, with this particular addon, did this occur? Try and leave out personal opinions and come up with an objective answer. Then tackle the problem as a community. Someone must be listening. We got the addon.
Bottom line is that while a lot of people are tired of hearing the "gripes, moans, groans, and *****ing" I don't see any real effort on their/our part to resolve the fundamental issues. If there has been an effort it is lost amidst all the personal attack who-haw.
If you have nothing constructive to add bag it up and give it to the poor schmoe at the freeway onramp. They're used to getting **** from stangers.
WV.

Is that ..... a triple negative..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

I dont quite get your post in relation to the quote from me.. I have offered sever tidbits of constructive advice that are there for those who care to look.. as for personal attacks... I am totally cluerless as to what you are referring to there.. I havent made one of those in a long... long time.. and the last time I did.. it was more than deserved.

and Pip.. I hear ya.. but the bottom line is all the free stuff was free... and Pe-2 isnt... People are grown and they do what they want... all I can control or judge is myself... and so in my small mind.... $18 isnt a lot to pay for this add on. And the whole Boonty protest is a moot point.... You can get rid of Boonty... or if you really want to do the right thing and I might have to ban myself for insinuating this..... but there are other ways to get this add on and still pay for it.. without Boonty... You can go to UBI and buy the thing .. pay for it.. and never open it up and still have it on your HD. Read between the lines. If you want to do the right thing then you can.

$20 is not a lot to pay for this addon. Just flight sells single planes that cant shoot, cant bomb.... they just fly around at modern airports.... Whhoop tee doo.. just what I want to do in my Mustang.... we all know that somewhere between these add ons there will be at least one or two patches.... if for bug fixes alone... it isnt like we have no precedent... thats why I am just floored by all the http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif and the http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif and the http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif.... I know it is impossible to ever see everyone doing this.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif
..... even with the best of stuff there are always those who will just not be happy... but I am really surprised the level of the lack of creativity in dealing with the issues around this addon. I had issues and you know I was there on day one.... and as soon as I got them worked out I did the right thing. Just do the rignt thing and enjoy yourself.

I tell ya one thing.. I bet we dont get as much free stuff with BoB as we did with this series... I bet we taught Oleg very very well... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not trying to resurrect this. Only wanted to answer you Bear. Been away for couple of days. County Fair season and all. Sweet Marie, I had never seen so many pigs before. But I digress.

I guess you missed the "to all:" portion of my input. I only quoted you cause you were the last thread addition I read with those type of senitiments. It was not pointed directly at you. I'll be a little more careful in the future.

As to the triple negative....naw, just a cheap writing trick to get the reader to actually read the sentence.

Sunburnt in Calif,
WV.