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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:10 PM
I've been assembling WW2 Aircraft models for quite a while now and each time I've been doing a Luftwaffe design I noticed there were no Swastika in the stickers.

It's strange because during the war Luftwaffe planes always had a Swastika on their tail.

Can anyone give me a straight answer?

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:10 PM
I've been assembling WW2 Aircraft models for quite a while now and each time I've been doing a Luftwaffe design I noticed there were no Swastika in the stickers.

It's strange because during the war Luftwaffe planes always had a Swastika on their tail.

Can anyone give me a straight answer?

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:12 PM
Political Correctness

47|FC
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-6.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:12 PM
In some countries it is illegal to display the nazi symbol in video games or stuff like that. So it's out for political reasons.

But there are several programs (Il2manager for instance, but also like Il2stab I think) that allow you to enable the swastikas.

Nic

http://nicolas10.freeservers.com/images/et.jpg


OK I -->[]

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:12 PM
Did you know that the sales of Navaho Indian weave blankets were non-existent during World War 2?

<center>http://af-helos.freewebspace.com/1NewHelos1.gif
<center><font face="verdana" size="1">Whop!-Whop!

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:14 PM
Blackjack_XV wrote:
- I've been assembling WW2 Aircraft models for quite a
- while now and each time I've been doing a Luftwaffe
- design I noticed there were no Swastika in the
- stickers.

Yes there are.

- It's strange because during the war Luftwaffe planes
- always had a Swastika on their tail.

No they didn't.

- Can anyone give me a straight answer?

No we can't.





Be seeing you.

Cpt.LoneRanger
08-07-2003, 07:16 PM
If the game had swatiskas, it would be illegal in Germany.

The allied feared, that Germans right arms would rise, if they'd look at a swatiska ever again... =/



greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/CptLoneRanger.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:21 PM
I like the innocence act, Blackjack_XV ! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif




"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:27 PM
necrobaron wrote:
- Political Correctness


Why am I not surprised?

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:34 PM
I hate it but it's true. I'm no Nazi,heck I'm not even German,but I don't like it when people try to forget or erase a certain part of history simply because it was "unpleasant".

47|FC
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-6.jpg

Cpt.LoneRanger
08-07-2003, 07:46 PM
It's not that they want to erease it. It's more like many of the former allied states still blame generations of today for what was done then. THAT is the thing I hate about this.

Besides that, forbidding this sign of history, which was btw not even a nazi "invention", is not a really good way to deal with those hollow-brains, who still believe in the glory of the "Third Reich". Silence was never a good method to teach somebody...

Well, that's my opinion.


greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/CptLoneRanger.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:55 PM
Cpt.LoneRanger wrote:
- Besides that, forbidding this sign of history, which
- was btw not even a nazi "invention", is not a really
- good way to deal with those hollow-brains, who still
- believe in the glory of the "Third Reich". Silence
- was never a good method to teach somebody...
-
- Well, that's my opinion.

That's also how I feel about this.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:55 PM
hmmm. I more than anyone would prefer the Swastika to be on aircraft in WWII sims and would vouch for it, even though the sign is an OFFENCE to me. I WANT the realism, but it is a MISTAKE to blame political correctness (which I also tire of).
Also we must not confuse it with other similar symbols. We are talking about the NAZI sign and its meaning as created by Adolf Hitler.

There are good reasons for this: Certain people (yes, today and now) out there want to hijack this symbol from a simple simulation (as well as other means) and use it for other means. Even creating converts if they can... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

We all have to be careful that we are not subtly swayed by clever words into supporting something evil by mistake. We do NOT want another nightmare.


Be careful.





"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

Message Edited on 08/07/0306:57PM by SeaFireLIV

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:59 PM
http://www.milkboy.com/broken.gif


http://www.johnsbit.com/b3ta/images/My%20b3ta%20pix/swas.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:05 PM
Wasn't the swastika originally some sort of Buddhist symbol?

47|FC
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-6.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:09 PM
EVIL SIGNS ???

Signs, signs, everywhere a sign, blocking out my vision, making me lose my mind, don't do this, do that, can't you read the sign?

CC



Message Edited on 08/07/0307:10PM by Coon-Chow

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:11 PM
But at least they couldve implemented the finnish national markings cos those had nothing to do with the nazis whatsoever. I realize tho that the swastika in any form is illegal in countries like Germany. So...i just use that il2hk.exe instead /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:33 PM
... because russian red star is better. Belive me ! I lived under think named comunism/socialism some years and it really "rocks" ...

-----------------------------
Jiri Fojtasek
HyperLobby author
http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz
-----------------------------

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 09:24 PM
USAFHelos wrote:
- Did you know that the sales of Navaho Indian weave
- blankets were non-existent during World War 2?
-


Because....the Navaho symbol for the sun which is woven into almost all Navaho blankets is the swastica.

Its a symbol that has been forever linked to the Nazis.

Its not liked, some fear it, some have died trying to defeat what it stood for.

For the most part...it isn't wanted.

Do you really need the symbol for historical correctness?



<center>http://af-helos.freewebspace.com/1NewHelos1.gif
<center><font face="verdana" size="1">Whop!-Whop!

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 09:44 PM
Hell, the Red Star is just as "offensive" as a swastika. Stalin killed more people than Hitler did, yet only a few people know that.

There's no reason to give the models ahistorical markings, so that the liberal bureaucrats in Germany can feel good about themselves.

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0yn9h/notpostcount.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 09:57 PM
BPond wrote:
- Hell, the Red Star is just as "offensive" as a
- swastika. Stalin killed more people than Hitler
- did, yet only a few people know that.
-
- There's no reason to give the models ahistorical
- markings, so that the liberal bureaucrats in Germany
- can feel good about themselves.
-
- <img
- src="http://mysite.verizon.net/res0yn9h/notpostcou
- nt.jpg">

Its the victors who get to write the history books. All nations are guilty of some little horrors in their past.

<center>http://rageman.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sigs/su25.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 04:01 PM
Hi guys,

It's a bit complex in some situations, but generally speaking the main reason for omission of the swastika when (historically) it should be present IS political correctness.

Even in those countries where it's illegal, you'll find that the primary motive today is, broadly, POLITICAL CORRECTNESS. Governments today are hyper-sensitive to lobby group opinion and they don't want to 'offend' anybody.

The original intention behind such legislation was to outlaw the use of the swastika on flags, posters, in magazines or in the media generally, where such use could offend the victims of Nazism or become a rallying point for neo-nazis and other extreme right wing movements.

While I would agree with this in principle, such sweeping 'blanket' legislation that has not been properly thought through has some unfortunate side effects.

Example - builders of scale models from the WW2 period are, in some situations, required to forego the tailfin swastikas on German aircraft. This kind of defeats the object of serious scale modelling, which is to produce a replica that is authentic in details, including the markings.

I notice that on the box art of many of the kits of German aircraft I have purchased, there is NO swastika visible. However, when I open the box, the decal sheet DOES have the swastikas on it, because these are not illegal in Australia. Reason? The box art is common to all export markets around the world, but the decal sheet can still be varied according to destination.

While there is photographic proof of a few WW2 German military aircraft without tailfin swastikas, the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY had them.

As for the question of accuracy being important (in model kits or in PC flight sims), for me the answer is a resounding and passionate YES, but manufacturers are compelled to respect the legislation in those countries where it applies.

I'm just glad I don't live in one of those countries. I'd become a political agitator without hesitation - fighting for what I believe is MY right, to finish my models with historical accuracy. No doubt, I would find that if I was perceived as a threat to the status-quo, some quite severe methods might be used to suppress me!

IMHO, if the markings on German aircraft cannot be both AUTHENTIC AND COMPLETE, then what's the point of bothering to make ANY of the markings, on ANY of the aircraft, authentic at all?

Another thing (mentioned by some others on this thread) is the SELECTIVENESS of this censorship. The communist regime under Josef Stalin was arguably every bit as evil as Nazism and lasted at least twice as long as the Third Reich. Many more people were murdered, enslaved and repressed. But I don't see any of this regime's symbology being banned.

Now, you might think that this is a trivial issue and in a sense I would agree - the presence or absense of a tailfin marking on a plane is IN ITSELF quite trivial.

But the importance of the principle is ANYTHING BUT trivial and if I found myself in the situation, I would fight for it. To ban the swastika as a public symbol or rallying point is fair enough, as far as it goes.

To ban it from all areas of life, including personal hobbies conducted in the privacy of one's own home, is a violation of rights - political correctness gone mad. Those who insist on it are, in my view, almost as bad as the evils they ostensibly oppose.

Or, to put it another way, it's not the symbol - it's how you intend to use it.

My two bob's worth.

Best regards to all,
panther3485

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 04:09 PM
The swastika is usually cut in two 'S' like halves...


http://sivusto.servepics.com/~lahnat/werre2s.jpg

veiting foor p¤ts

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 04:12 PM
panther3485,

There`s the odd point I might argue with but, the majority I wholeheartedly agree with. Some points you`ve made were exactly what I was trying to say...





"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 04:28 PM
panther3485 wrote:

- The original intention behind such legislation was
- to outlaw the use of the swastika on flags, posters,
- in magazines or in the media generally, where such
- use could offend the victims of Nazism or become a
- rallying point for neo-nazis and other extreme right
- wing movements.
-

The regulation of forbidding the svasticas, in addition to beeng:
- offensive against the basic rights of free speech etc,
- incomplete (why nazi and not communist symbols)
- self-destructive (if we don't allow displaying svasticas, in a couple of year we don't know how it looks like, so we have no means to control)
- plain stupid

...is just not working, since the NeoNazis rally even without it. This is just you have to create some positive examples, opportunities, hope for young people to prevent them from falling into a stupidity (be it an extremist 'political' organisation, be it drugs) rather than plainly forbidding them. Moreover, a forbidden thing gets even more attractive, especially for young people.

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 04:35 PM
Governments today are
- hyper-sensitive to lobby group opinion and they
- don't want to 'offend' anybody.
-

Having lived in Japan I think most who clammer for Swasticas don't understand the emotional issues of pain & cultural guilt associated with some symbols.

Remember both the victims & the people who suported Hitler are still alive today. The swastika also I am sure is a reminder to many who lost loved ones-including children in the war that left cities of millions in rubble. That kind of pain runs very deep. The idea that these people should change their laws to please hobbiests who buil plastic models and youth who play video games is incredibly shallow IMHO.
many on this forum speak of honouring those who fought in WW2. We should honour all who died & honour those who suffered so terribly & still managed to go on and to build new lives after the war.

Personally the clamor for swasticas in the name of "Realism" is very inappropriate & I suspect for SOME has to do with a glamorous view they hold of Germany's great fighter pilots. The swastica is not a symbol of honor & I prefer not having it out of respect for people in my family who fought against it & for all those who were victims of the war.
I am not bothered by those who want the swastica (esp the Finnish cross used since 1914) but I prefer not to add it to my game out of respect.

ps- the Buddhist sybol is reversed from the Nazi symbol.

just had to get this off my chest
S!

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/yak11/autresyaks/df002.jpg

"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 04:55 PM
I think its also sad that becouse of swastika there is not that old finnish airforce mark in the game.http://www.pienoismalli.com/haka_low.gif
There is a pic of that mark. In ww2 there were that mark in all finnish planes. And that mark has nothing to do whit swastika. That mark was finnish airforce mark from early 1910`s or so.

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 04:59 PM
OH MY GOD, YOU MEAN THE SWASTICA ON FINNISH PLANES ISNOT A NAZI SYMBOL?!? WOW I"VE NEVER HEARD THAT BEFORE!!! I REALLY WISH SOMEONE ANSWERED QUESTIONS LIKE THESE IN TTHE <h1>FAQ</h1>.



Be seeing you.

Message Edited on 08/08/0312:03PM by Earwicker

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 05:01 PM
Oblivion is not an option on these matters I think. Stalin killed 20+ million people & the Red Star is included in the game - why shouldn´t the Swastika? It´s history & it´s sometimes painful but you can´t just pretend it didn´t happen. Leave them off if you feel better this way but don´t try to forget - if we all forget - I´m pretty sure it will happen again...

S!

M0NS



"Blow up the outside world"

http://www.flugwerk.de/images/01k.jpg
My garage!

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 06:04 PM
M0NS wrote:
- Oblivion is not an option on these matters I think.
- Stalin killed 20+ million people & the Red Star is
- included in the game -

why shouldn´t the Swastika?

Because it was outlawed in Germany & the Red Star wasn't outlawed at the end of the CCCP.
I'm just saying we should respect Germanies laws/desires on this matter.
There are some differences between Stalin & the Communist /Socialist movement & Hitler & the Nazi movement. The repalcement of the German Republic's flag by the Nazi one shows this. STalin didn't change the symbols people had to honor he just used them for his own ends etc

Also putting the swastica in a game in NO WAY means that all who see/play it remember what happened. American youth are suprising ignorant of history. Many do not know who fought who in WW2 -just watch Jay Leno sometimes.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/yak11/autresyaks/df002.jpg

"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 06:20 PM
There is no 'clamouring for the swastika' as far as I am aware - only the desire - and the RIGHT - to see realism and authenticity in the finish of model aircraft and in the appearance of simulated aircraft when playing on the PC.

It's got NOTHING to do with liking or disliking things German. I build models of aircraft from all nations with equal enthusiasm. I have no preference for German types. But I am very passionate about my hobbies and I'm a stickler for realism and detail in every area.

My sentiments would be just as strong if it were British RAF tailfin flashes that were not allowed. Either way, it's just plain stupid and as far as model building or flight simming are concerned, has no logical connection with any valid sentiments regarding war crimes.

Amending legislation would not be pandering to hobbyists, nor should it be considered an offence against anyone's sensibilities. It is merely restoring balance and common sense to what is currently a ludicrous situation.

An ocean net, intended to stop 'dangerous' sharks, can trap and kill innocent dolphins. The dolphins are victims of people's paranoia about sharks. You've got about 10,000 times more chance of being killed in a car accident driving to the beach or home afterwards, than of being attacked by a shark.

I would suggest that there was a degree of emotionalism and paranoia involved in the creation of legislation to ban the swastika. The legislation was of dubious effectiveness to begin with and adversely impacts on people it was never intended to affect.

Again, I re-iterate that I agree in principle with the INTENT of these laws, but I strongly disagree with the sweeping and all-encompassing nature of their effects. One can argue that such laws should never have been enacted but if they had to be, they could certainly have been more carefully worded.

I take issue with the suggestion that my desire to see models authentically finished, and if necessary amend legislation to allow this (which wouldn't hurt anyone) is somehow 'shallow'. What nonsense!

If anything, it is the support of emotionally-based knee-jerk blanket legislation, without properly considering all the implications, that is shallow. It is the sledge-hammer mentality.

Worse, it is repressive and, when extended to a person's home hobbies, a violation of personal freedom and the rights of the individual. Defending these rights was one of the main reasons my father, his comrades and many of his generation fought AGAINST Nazism.

Of course, it might depend on which country you come from and what sort of lifestyle and ideals you are accustomed to. Here in Australia, excessive government interference in people's personal lives simply isn't tolerated.

panther3485

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 07:05 PM
Panther wrote :I would suggest that there was a degree of
- emotionalism and paranoia involved in the creation
- of legislation to ban the swastika. The legislation
- was of dubious effectiveness to begin with and
- adversely impacts on people it was never intended to
- affect.

Emotionalism & paranoia....after discovering what was happening at concentration camps around "civilized" Europe.

I think shock & Horror were more likely reposnsible. In the chaos of Germany immediately after the end of the war it was not so clear that the Nazi party would not rise from the ashes...better to err on the side of caution.

"dubious effectiveness" I 'm not sure wasnt there have not studied post war Germany except for tales of raping looting & refugees.

My friend's parents met in a German concentration camp in Poland as teenagers. They walked to Halland & snuck across the border. He came home one day with a short haircut very much like those of the German army. When his Mother turned & saw him she was stunned. heasked what was wrong & she explained that he looked like the guards at the camps.
He didn't get that haircut again, though i suppose he could have. Personal freedom brings with it a responsibility to others. All human life is communal. A mature individual has to balance freedom & consideration. pure personal freedom is anarchy after all.


The tail flash thing...I think you're awfully anal for an Aussie, but that just me, heh.

Of course, it might depend on which country you come
- from and what sort of lifestyle and ideals you are
- accustomed to. Here in Australia, excessive
- government interference in people's personal lives
- simply isn't tolerated.

yes it does depend on what country you come from. I'm saying we should not complain about a lack of "realism" out of respect for others.
& her's the ironic part. The swastica is precisely a symbol of gov't interference in the personal lives of folks. That you think of having swasticas banned from your hobby is a violation of your rights is , frankly sad. Having your wife & kids dragged into the streat & beaten in the middle of the night & then being thrown into a concentration camp to work until dead because you said the country's leader is a wanker; now that is a violation & an intrusion against which we all must fight. swastica stickers on plastic airplanes ain't.




http://perso.wanadoo.fr/yak11/autresyaks/df002.jpg

"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 09:12 PM
Saburo_0

I must completely agree with everything you say about all these terrible things!

What you are saying is OK, in the sense that you meant it. Of course the horrors of dictatorship and war are terrible stains on humanity. OF COURSE being dragged out in the street, beaten, sent to camps etc is much, much worse than being denied relatively minor freedoms of expression.

Nobody is arguing about that, and if you think I am trying to argue it, then put simply, you are either misunderstanding me or missing my point.

When you ban the use of swastikas and other Nazi symbology in parts of the world where people are very sensitive to these symbols, then you have a compelling reason to enact legislation. After all, we don't want to hurt or offend anyone. As I've said before, fair enough in principle.

I merely believe that if such laws extend to areas like home hobbies that don't have public exposure, this gives no additional benefit to the people we are trying to protect. There is, however, unwarranted interference in people's private hobbies.

Most people would consider missing tailfin swastikas - or any missing marking - relatively trivial and in itself, it IS trivial. But the principle bothers me.

If we accept government interference in our PRIVATE activities at this level, what else do we accept?

From one of your previous posts, you appeared to believe there were other motives for wanting to see swastikas on the tailfins of German planes. In my case at least, there are no such motives.

I am compelled ONLY by the desire for historical and technical accuracy. I'm not too sure where you get this 'ANAL' idea from. If it's my passion for authenticity that makes me 'ANAL', then so be it. I'm ANAL.

The example of RAF tailfin flashes was merely given to show that I am NOT biased towards German things or intent on idealizing German/Nazi symbols. I was explaining that ANY loss of detail at that level is unacceptable to me.

My finishing of model airplanes and playing of PC simulations, in the privacy of my own home - WITH OR WITHOUT swastikas on tailfins - does not impact on other people's lives, freedom or sensibilities.

In pursuing such activities and appreciating the realism and detail, I am simply enjoying my hobbies the way I want to, without hurting anyone else. Nobody has the right to interfere with this, and there is NO GOOD REASON to interfere with it.

In such activities, there is no requirement to 'balance freedom with consideration', because nobody else is involved and nobody else is affected. The idea that my doing this could be a threat to anybody IS paranoia.

Obviously, it would be a very different matter if I was using Nazi symbols in public, or in some way that would upset or hurt another person. Even though there are no specific laws against Nazi symbols in my country, I don't do it and I never would. No decent person would. In fact, I would strongly oppose anyone else doing this.

As for 'anarchy' how the hell did you read THAT into what I said?

In any case, because I do model all my planes with full markings and have the IL-2 Stab software to enable swastikas on tailfins when I want them, the discussion for me is a 'what if'. In other words, what would I do if such legislation as this affected my hobbies?

I would certainly fight it, as I have stated before, because I think it would be both stupid and wrong for the law to extend THAT FAR.

Best regards,
panther3485

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 10:03 PM
this topic has made intersting reading for me, as i recently had a conversation with my grandfather about this, when he saw no swasitkas on the german planes in il2&fb, he was pleased! he fought the during ww2 (royal navy. atlantic, mediterainean & far east) and he finds the symbol offensive, as do the victims of the nazis.

and there are a couple of points i would like to make, in response to other posts.

1. the swastika was the symbol of the nazi party, not of the german armed forces, but people are offended by the nazi regime and what they did, so by extension are offended by the symbol aswell, it is therefore absolutely right not to include it in the game.

2. the finnish "swastika" was actualy a good luck symbol in finland dating back perhaps 200 yrs, now someone said in this forum that the finnish symbol had nothing to do with nazis. well this is true, before the war started, after that they were allies, now for this reason and because it looks very similar to the german swastika, it should not be included

3. the soviet red star was and still is, just a symbol of the military and is no more offensive than a raf roundel or a german black cross.
yes stalin did butcher millions of his own people, but i fail to see how anyone can object to a national symbol rather than that of the nazi party.

4. on the question of accuracy of plane markings, get a grip guys! its a small piece of the texture that isnt there, and has no effect on the gameplay whatsoever!
who has time to look at the exterior of thier planes in a dogfight anyway?

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 10:10 PM
I prefer the swastika as well but it offends some people who's lives were affected adverlsy by the idology behind the symbol. I think it is a shame to try and bury the historical fact. but it wont erase what happened. When my mom was a child in Germany at the end of the war she was punnished severly for drawing what she thought was a pretty design in the sand. the design was a swastika and she was only six, but the school headmaster beat her silly and nearly had my grandfather arrested. Hows that for injustice?

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 10:27 PM
idont think anyone is trying to bury historical fact, everyone knows what happened, the swastika should be forgotten out of respect for the victims and the service men who fought against it. of course you're right this cant change history, but some people would like to forget thier experience of the nazis, and the community as a whole should respect that.

BM357_Raven
08-08-2003, 10:45 PM
Interesting arguments... I for one am glad that the 109 and 190 do NOT include the swastika. For me it's a personal thing about wanting to fly a plane without carrying the banner of Nazism, which is what the swastika has come to mean.

I enjoy flying the 109 for the plane--NOT for the politics.

I think the argument about the Soviet star is a good one and a good point. Stalin was a mass killer and a mirror image of Hitler in almost every respect from my viewpoint. It's strange that I don't perceive the red star as being as evil as the swastika..

I also think the argument about freedom of speech made by some in this thread is a good one. If a line is drawn, who is to say where it should be drawn, becomes a matter of dispute and always deprives someone of freedom in respect to censureship.

I am glad that the FB didn't come with swastika's and if someone feels they need to ride around with a Nazi symbol on their plane, they should be free to install the program that lets them do so... I think it works out in the end this way, doesn't it?

On the issue of the Nazi symbol being illegal in some countries is a totally different matter. But I believe that Maddox and Ubi have been politically sensative to a complex and contraversal matter. And I would rather see more countries' citizens be able to participate in FB, than see certain countries excluded from joining our arena.

By the way, my great grand father fought with the Germans and perished during WWII. I have him in my thoughts just as much as another grandparent who fought on the side of the Americans-- when I speak about this topic. Perhaps I would have met my great grandfather if Hitler had never come to power. But that's another matter altogether.

Nope, for me I don't mind not seeing the swastika on the 109...I prefer it the way it is. But that's just me...

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 11:13 PM
necrobaron wrote:
- Wasn't the swastika originally some sort of Buddhist symbol?


Actually you can find some Ancient Greek clay vases (early 500 B.C.) where the painters used swastikas for decoration.

Regardless of the historic background of the swastika thing, this symbol is banned in Germany. Equally banned are German military flags from the First World War although not many people are aware of that.

German legislation is very strict on those things and Germans are very sensitive. They would not have been able to circulate IL2 in Germany had it not been removed.

I guess it is one of the downsides of "globalisation". The IL2 SW is the same in all countries so they had to respect that rule.

The same problem occured many years ago with some other games, too. I think it was "castle Wollerstheim" and some of the secrets levels of DOOM which contained offending symbols and the games had to be recalled from the German market.

I would also prefer to fly in an airplane with correct (historical) details but I do not mind respecting others' sensitivities. Besides, it does not make my plane fly worse (ME109K fun...)

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 11:35 PM
vonbattenburg3 wrote:
- 2. the finnish "swastika" was actualy a good luck
- symbol in finland dating back perhaps 200 yrs, now
- someone said in this forum that the finnish symbol
- had nothing to do with nazis. well this is true,
- before the war started, after that they were allies,
- now for this reason and because it looks very
- similar to the german swastika, it should not be
- included


I´m not sure did I undestand this correct, but are you saying that here shouldn´t be Finnish hakaristi in this game? If so, I disagree. If you was saying otherwise, I will then make some views heard.
Actually Finns have used swastikas generally much longer than 200 years, actually over 1000 years when it was the symbol of Finns main god Ukko Ylijumala and known as Mursunsyd¤n (heart of walrus). That was long before christians arrived to Finnish tribes areas. It´s same as saying to Asians that they are nazis because they are using swastikas as religious symbol. Lithuanian (or was it Latvian?) air forces used red swastika. Just how many thinks they were nazis because of red swastika?
As you said, Finns used swastika before Finland was in co-operation with Germany (Finland wasn´t blood-brother ally but co-operated with Germany to take that back what was taken by Stalin earlier in war called Winter War). Actually Finns used swastika already in time long before Germany was ally of Soviet Union and they invaded Poland together.
If people are judging all swastika symbols just because of one Austrian amateur painter who used one of the forms of swastika in his own party without that they understands why here is such symbol, then somewhere is something wrong, IMO.

- 3. the soviet red star was and still is, just a
- symbol of the military and is no more offensive than
- a raf roundel or a german black cross.
- yes stalin did butcher millions of his own people,
- but i fail to see how anyone can object to a
- national symbol rather than that of the nazi party.

Just like Finnish blue swastika is just the symbol of Finnish Air and Tank Forces, it should be here originally.
You would surely object to red five pointed star if your relatives would be killed by Stalinists in Stalin´s holocaust...
I say that both symbols are equally evil and good, All is just about in what context you are speaking of those.
History is guiding our opinions after all IMHO. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/~avalpas/KruunuPieni.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 11:50 PM
Actually Swastika is in IL-2 FB.....you just have to know how to enable it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former"
Albert Einstein

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 11:51 PM
Actually Swastika is in IL-2 FB.....you just have to know how to enable it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.assonetart.com/BigBeauDoll.jpg





"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former"
Albert Einstein

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:11 AM
One more time ......

EVIL SIGNS ???

Signs, signs, everywhere a sign, blocking out my vision, making me lose my mind, don't do this, do that, can't you read the sign?

CC

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:14 AM
In a less-detailed sim, the absence of swastikas would probably be a lot less noticible. For me it's a 'sin of omission' that looks as odd as leaving the number off a racing car. As has been noted earlier, it is possible to enable them. I have, so can anyone else, so the issue is moot.

Hunter82
08-09-2003, 12:15 AM
because I said so that's why /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



Blackjack_XV wrote:
- I've been assembling WW2 Aircraft models for quite a
- while now and each time I've been doing a Luftwaffe
- design I noticed there were no Swastika in the
- stickers.
-
- It's strange because during the war Luftwaffe planes
- always had a Swastika on their tail.
-
- Can anyone give me a straight answer?
-
-



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XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:30 AM
WarWingz wrote:
- Actually Swastika is in IL-2 FB.....you just have to
- know how to enable it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-

I know it is here. I was just saying that is should have been there when game did come out /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

----------------------------------------
"Only Finland - superb, nay, sublime - in the jaws of peril -
Finland shows what free men can do."
Winston Churchill 1940
<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/~aval2/F19_Kunkkula.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:32 AM
hello kunkkula,
I must admit that my knowledge of finnish history is rather limited, so if you say the swastika was used in finland over 1000 years ago, then i'll bow to your superior knowledge on that.

now i did try to make a distiction between the red star and the swastika ( the red star was a national symbol, the german swastika a nazi, not german, symbol), and as i said because the finnish "sw" was so close to the nazi one and because the finns were allies, the finnish symbol should not have been used.
whatever their tactical or strategic aims during the war, and regardless of what territory stalin had taken, the finns were allied to germany, and in my view germany, or rather nazism was the the greater of two evils.

and to paraphrase winston churchill " i would join forces with the devil to defeat hitler" ( i cant remember the correct quote) that says it all does'nt it?

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 01:02 AM
Yep, political correctness is the right answer. Well, actually it would be more accurate to cite "fiscal correctness"; removing swasticas will NOT hurt sales, but including swasticas MIGHT hurt sales.

Ubi is in the video game business for money, not to provide historical information. Interestingly, Janes IS in that business, and they do include swasticas on the German planes.

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 01:27 AM
because hypocrisy runs through every individual !

http://users.pandora.be/vnnet/FBforum/swastika.gif

<center>http://users.pandora.be/vnnet/FBforum/sig9.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 01:29 AM
In my opinion, historically realistic markings such as the Finish and German swastica should have been included in the interest of historical realism. This game is, after all, a simulation and should therefore have as much realism in terms of aircraft, etc as is possible. I do understand that many could be offended by the markings based on the horrendous crimes perpetrated by the Nazies from 1933-1945.

However, it is for this reason that they should have offered the choice to enable historical markings during installation. In that way, those who dont want to be reminded of the darker pages of human history could enjoy the game just as much as those who appreciate aspects of historical realism.

To suggest that swasticas would serve as a rallying point for neo-Nazies, etc, in a simulator or on model decals is simply absurd and is a foolish though (pc gone wrong). Once again, I would rather build/fly a replica aircraft with markings that it actually had in real life rather than ommiting details that can offend people. After all, its history, and that we cant (or shouldnt) erase. After all, would you erase a chapter in history books that deals with Nazi attrocities because it brings back bad memories amoung some?

And just one question, does this IL-2 Stab program have a significant cost in frame rates? I would much prefer to fly luftwaffe, finish aircraft with historical realism (just as i expect to with VVS, British, American, Japanese, etc.)

Regards,
luftwaffe_109

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 01:39 AM
Panther, 1st let me say i did go off the dep end a bit there. & i had meant to put a wink in there after that anal remark because frankly all serious model builders are anal. The WWi Aerodrome site had some great threads on this tendancy labeled as Advanced Modelers Syndrome. Now I build models but i am crap at it so do not suffer from AMS. There is a cure for it but it involves , well i wont get into that now....

You said :I merely believe that if such laws extend to areas
- like home hobbies that don't have public exposure,
- this gives no additional benefit to the people we
- are trying to protect. There is, however,
- unwarranted interference in people's private
- hobbies.
1. i hadn't thought of the lack of public exposure because i was thinking of box art etc & publishing a game is a public act. And I don't think people should be so disrespectful of Germany's decision to ban the Nazi symbol.

Didn't mean to suggest YOU had other motives for wanting swastica's included but can't help thinking of the appeal of unusual symbols to young people, & being anxious about this. though as i think i said it doesn't bother me if people enable swasticas, I do think UBI or Oleg made the right decision not to include them. I think labeling their decision as "politically correct" in a dismissive way as many have done is wrong. I agree that now we have the best possible compromise as each person can have the game as they like. But what happens online if skin down loads are enabled ? Is that a problem for German FB flyers ??

Most here seem to have a reall sense of WW2 not a sanitized & oversimplified notion of it. I'm glad to learn this.

if i went overboard it's because of .. well i suppose as i age & look back on things i've heard & that my grandfather's generation went through the scope of the horror of all htat senseless death just boggles the imagination. And the foolishness of it all. To think that my grandfather & my wife's could have been trying to kill each other even though they were both farmers and family people.

Anyway not too long ago i decided that i felt better flying without the swasticas & would not enable them. Besides I like to aim at the light blue under bellies of my opponents. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Peace.




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"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 01:52 AM
Blackjack_XV wrote:
- Why no Swastika?
-
- I've been assembling WW2 Aircraft models for quite a
- while now and each time I've been doing a Luftwaffe
- design I noticed there were no Swastika in the
- stickers.
-
- It's strange because during the war Luftwaffe planes
- always had a Swastika on their tail.
-
- Can anyone give me a straight answer?



Swasticas are banned in certain countries.

Models are a toys, and this is a game (not a sim .. even Oleg admits this)

Straight enough for you?


<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
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XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 03:06 AM
vonbattenburg3, we can´t argue about opinions /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

However, I hope you do understand differences (both cultural and political) between Finnish swastikas (both von Rosen´s swastika from 1918 and Ancient Finnish God symbol from since about 2000 years ago) and Nazi swastika. Finns used swastikas long before here even was so called nazis. I hope that also other people does understand difference. It isn´t very nice just to believe, when you can know for sure the truth. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


I don´t know how well you do know history of Finland in WW2, but here comes some info. This surely helps people undertand IL-2: FB better too, so I recommend that everyone reads it, even it is bit long:

Simply, Finland was democratic nation fighting with Axis. We had 3 presidents during 1939-1945, all elected in constitutional order (so, no dictators here). As well we had Parliament, where was political parties form right wing Nationalists to leftish Social-democrats (Communist party was banned... surprise, surprise). Nationalist never had more than 6% of seats in Finnish parliament. Leftish had 2-3 times more seats. Rest seats were manned by Conservatives and Centrist parties.

Finland went to war in 1941 because Stalin was in winter 1939-40 attacked to Finland, as Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement allowed Stalin to do. That war (Winter War) lasted 105 days and as result of it Finland was forced to give 40.000km2 of its so called "Finnish part of Karelia" and Salla to Soviet Union and 400.000 Finn was homeless (I´m biased here /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif ).
During Winter War Germany was actually the hostile for Finland; they stopped Italian airplane and supply cargos, even they (Germans) were not official enemies of Finland. Now we know why Nazis were delaying material aid transportations for Finns in their battle against Stalin and his form of Communism. That was quite surprising, because 10 years earlier Finns were helped Germans with their U-boat program (World´s first II and VI type u-boats were buil in Finland for Germans). That first II type sub is now museum in Helsinki, Finland. You are welcomed to come see it if you are interested for U-boats and submarines generally. I can be your guide if needed /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Also Americans and Brits as well other later known Allied nations helped Finland (as you know) with planes and material aid.

After Winter War Finland was alone. Germans did invade Norway, so here was now Nazis in West, North, South and Stalin´s Red Army was in East and South (Baltic states didn´t fighted at all, they were invaded. Finland did fight.). Baltic Sea was now sealed from western ships, and Finland didn´t have any hope to get more weapons from western Allies using planes or ships. Except via Petsamo on shore of Arctic Sea, but ti was impossible because it was so near Norway (and Soviet Union too).
So Finland asked from Germans maybe they can help, and Hitler was willing to help. Maybe because he was seen how well Finns were fighted against Red Army, maybe he thinked that Finns would be good allies in future. Well, Finland wasn´t any good "ally" later, when it refused to attack Leningrad, refused to cut murmansk rail road and later in war made perhaps the largest diplomatic "backstabbing" of WW2 to Germans in 1944.
NOTE that Finland never made official Agreement Of Alliance, like Italy or Japan for example, with Germany.

In summer 1941 Finland attacked to Soviet Union with weapons Germans were sold to Finland (and what was took from massive Soviet divisions and plane armadas destroyed inside Finland during Winter War). Finns recaptured lost areas of Finnish Karelia.
In that point (september-october 1941) Brits and Americans congratulated Finland for its victories. Can you imagine? Country in co-operation with Germans was receiving congratulations from western Allies for its success against Soviets. These same leaders were almost all in war with Germans and allies of SU in this point (USA joined later as we know).
Finns went soon into Soviet Karelia over old Soviet-Finnish border and invaded Soviet Karelia to get better defence line called "Thee isthmus´ line" for defence and as pawn for planned negotations with Russians after Germans would win war. Looking map it should become clear why it was called 3 isthmus line.
In that point Churchill declared war to Finland by pressure of Stalin in december 6th 1941. Finns were very disappointed for this.
Roosevelt said no to Stalin, because he knew that Finland went to war take back that what was "stolen" from Finns (and because Roosevelt had Finnish born advisor whispering to his ear /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ). Finns also made political agreement not to cut Murmansk railroad or attack to Leningrad. If Finns can keep that agreement, USA won´t declare war. And that agreement was kept. Finland also paid its debts to USA and other western allies during 1941-1944 normally, even those were enemies of Finland.

Not coming any deeper to events in 1942-1943 and trench war, I can tell that after Stalingrad in spring 1943 Finland asked, with help of US diplomats and Swedsih embassies, what terms would be OK for Stalin to stop Finnish-Soviet war (in Finland war 1941-1944 is known as Jatkosota, Continuation War, it was direct continue to Winter War as people may guess). Stalin demanded unconditional surrending, which was unacceptable for Finns. Negotiations were disconnected. Same thing happened again in spring 1944 too. To summer 1944 here were 250.000 Finns from originally 400.000 returned to their old home areas (also my family returned).

Soviets launched their major Counter Offensive against Finns with 40 divisions (Finns had total 7 divisions + dozen of brigades and smaller units and those few planes compared to Soviets) 9th June 1944, that was happening just 3 days after D-Day as it was agreed beforehand.
You see, Westerns were thinking that Stalin would attack south of Leningrad but no, he attacked north of Leningrad, against Finns. That was proven to be minor surprise for Roosevelt at least, after all. Soviets advanced during following 2 summer weeks that same distance, what was taken 3 months just 4 years earlier in winter time.
But Finns managed to stop Soviet assault with help of Germans. You see, Finland´s President Ryti prepared a trap to Germans in this point with his private show which was that "backstabbing" I mentioned earlier:
He did wrote to Hitler that Finns would fight against Soviet to bitter end, if Germans would sell weapons and food for Finland. He put his name and some nice stamps to letter and sended it to Hitler. Hitler accepted Ryti´s suggestion and so Finns received for example Stuka squadron Kuhlmey and tank killing weapons etc. With these German weapons and bitterly fighting Finnish soldiers, Soviets were finally stopped during June-July and such battles as Tali-Ihantala and Vuoksenniska etc. occured.
Tali-Ihantala´s battle is greatest battle ever in Scandinavias history, 15.000 Finns and maybe even 60.000 Red Army soldiers wounded or died in that few weeks battle. My grandfather was there after bloodiest battles were over and he survived even Soviet air raids were occured and tanks were in their positions periodically until september. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Finns took now contact to Soviets, after they were stopped and Stalin finally agreed to terms of conditional peace with Finns. Partly because Western advance in France was going well and Stalin needed those 40 divison (or maybe 30 now) in Central and Southern Fronts on his way to Berlin.
In this point Germans wake up and started to speak something about Ryti´s letter. Here was just one problem with letter; it hadn´t any diplomatic value. It was just piece of paper because Ryti´s letter was technically international agreement, and all international agreements should be accpeted by democratically elected and ruled Finnish Parliament. Ryti´s letter wasn´t approved by Finnish parliament, so his promise to keep fighting to bitter end was nothing but just short sentence in paper /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif . Because of this Ryti´s solo in diplomacy, he resigned because it was crime in constitutionally speaking. Morally it was one of the greatest sample of great love toward fatherland what democratically thinking politician can have, IMO. He (and dozen of other leading Finn) was later put to jail for 10 years in Soviet organized (but with Finnish laws) courts. Finnish laws didn´t allowed capital punishment for civilians and such law was neither ever done.
But hey, no problem now. Finland elected Mannerheim as president and he made peace with Soviets few days later, with approval of Finnish Parliament, as it was supposed to go! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Continuation War ended 4th september 1944. Surprisingly, Soviets continued their artillery firing in some places to 5th day. Reason was unsolved question about German troops.
Germans were now whining like little kids whose lollipops were stolen middle of day by bigger boys. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Finland lost majority of Finnish Karelia and some extra areas for total 50.000km2 and now total 420.000 people was homeless. Project to build homes for them was biggest repopulation project compared to population density until end of ex-Yugolavian Wars in 1990s. Many nations used Finns plan later with their own repopulation projects. Except Stalin, we know his "projects"... Swastika was also banned from FAF planes.
but it is still in official use, for example president´s official flag does include it as part of medal in it:http://www.presidentti.fi/fin/instituutio/presidentin_lippu.gif


Finns and Germans went soon after that to "war" called War of Lapland. It wasn´t at first any war; Finns and Germans agreed that Germans does leave Finland peacefully. Finns followed and Germans were shooting back gently and retreating from southern Lapland.
But Soviets were demanded in peace agreement that Germans should be driven off in 2 weeks from Finnish northern soil. Now can you get 200.000 German with their warehouses out of Lapland in that time? Impossible for every nation.
Soviets threatened to send Red Army "help" Finns if something doesn´t happen and soon. So Finns invaded coastal town of Tornio and few others in middle september, which caused that Germans did literally speaking burn down whole Lappland as revenge. Last Germans went to Norway in spring 1945 and Finland was out of wars.

Here was still 3 more years of political "battle" in Finland during 1944-47, but after all Finnish democracy won communism (and before that nazism).

Sometimes things are not as they seems to be just watching Allied/Axis map. I have noticed that not many people remmeber, that here is no just only black (evil) and white (good); here is also gray scale and Finland was in that color, IMO

----------------------------------------
"Only Finland - superb, nay, sublime - in the jaws of peril -
Finland shows what free men can do."
Winston Churchill 1940
<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/~aval2/F19_Kunkkula.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 03:14 AM
Hmm, I can´t edit that my earlier posting for some reason, but I forgot to add that Churchill does also say in this same radio speech, from where this my quote is from, some rude words about communism and its soul rottening effect and Soviets.
Soviets did that same with their own propaganda. To summer 1941 Brits were just workers bloodsucking banker enemies, after summer 1941, they were gift from gods of money (and material).

Just interesting sample how things can change in international political life from other end to another just in few months.


----------------------------------------
"Only Finland - superb, nay, sublime - in the jaws of peril -
Finland shows what free men can do."
Winston Churchill 1940
<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/~aval2/F19_Kunkkula.jpg </center>

Message Edited on 08/09/0304:17AM by Kunkkula

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 03:19 AM
I amazed how the guy from japan talking about sensitivity to swastika enstead of talking about sensitivity to US star and hiroshima with nagasaki. Personaly Im very sensitive to red star and I know that there is millions who sensitive to red star just same as me, but nobody care about it. Well, Im not saying that red star should be prohibited or banned and Im not saying that UBI should put swastika in to the game and because off that couldnt sell IL2 in some countries.
If we will talk about fairness - swastika became symbol of evil because of Adolf and red star became symbol of evil because of proletarian dictature. BTW red star became symbol of evil and madness few decades earlier then Swastika. And obviously regime wich were using red star as a symbol killed much more people then regime as a symbol using swastika.

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 04:27 AM
OK, Saburo_0 - thanks, mate.

I respect you difference of opinion, which now turns out to be not such a great difference after all. I think we are now in a position of mutual respect.

Just a few notes I would like to add.

Being as it was my father's generation that fought against Nazism (rather than grandfather or great-grandfather), I am somewhat 'closer' in time to the feelings and sentiments of this generation. I was born not long after the war and grew up with the 'post-war' syndrome. The topic of the war and all it's attendant evils was still very much in people's minds.

During my earlier career, I worked for many years in a Jewish community (though I am not Jewish myself). During this time, I befriended a good number of families and found that many of them had at least one member with experience of the holocaust.

I am therefore very aware of how the Nazi symbol can offend and upset some individuals - and with good reason in their cases. Even those not directly involved, but close to or sympathizing with these people can be offended and I'm also aware of that.

It if for this reason more than any, that I would oppose the use of Nazi symbology in Public.

What I object to is the idea that the 'long arm of the law' could reach into the deails of my home hobby, conducted in privacy, that doesn't hurt or offend anybody. Of course, this doesn't actually happen in Australia - it's just the thought of it happening than angers me, because I'm so passionate about authenticity and detail. ('Anal' is the term I think you used?)

Ubi's exclusion of the tailfin swastika is no problem to me, because I can enable it with later software. On the other hand, if I had no means to enable it, I would be pi***d off every time I saw a German plane, because in an otherwise hightly detailed and accurately finished sim it wouldn't be right. Yeah, OK, this is further proof that I'm 'Anal'.

Of interest to me is, having played a number of WW2 flight sims, IL-2 and FB are the only one's I've known that don't include the swastika on German planes. Mind you, I do understand their reasoning and respect their choice - I'm just happy that MY German planes are correctly marked!

One contributor to this thread wanted to emphasize that the swastika was merely the symbol of the Nazi party, not of Germany as a country or its armed forces generally. (Did I get this right?).

If I did get that right, I should remind him of two things:

*During Hitler's reign as Dictator (1933-1945), the Black Swastika, on a white cirle, on a red background, was the official national flag of Germany.

*Before the onset of WW2, the entire armed forces of Germany swore a personal oath of loyalty to Hitler and the Nazi party. By this time, most of the people were behind him and enthusiastic about what they thought was going to be a great future for Germany. Of course, they did not suspect the terrible conflict that lay ahead.



Best regards to all,
panther3485

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 04:58 AM
Whew I took the time of reading it all, and I sure liked to see what I read, very interesting

But as for Hitler and Stalin duking it out the most appropriate way to describe that would be to call that the clash of 2 evils.

An interesting thing is the medals though, the German medals such as the Knight's Cross or Ritterkreuz are even banned from being sold on e-bay unless you can proove it's a real Ritterkreuz.

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 05:39 AM
do u guys know why history is taught in schools and colleges and etc in the first place? its for a very simple reason. so history doesn't repeat itself. what happens when things start "disappearing" out of textbooks and other material because of the stupid and foolish reason of being politically correct. yea we all see the videos and all read the textbooks about what happened. but goshdarnit, its the end of the world if we see the damned swastica, and u guys know it!!!

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 06:52 AM
I totally agree with statements about the danger of trying to erase swastikas from history...

If my children never see it, they won't know what it is... It is open door for allowing history to repeat itself, once more, in the future...

And i want to point at the "political correctness" thing also...

The swastika wasn't outlawed in 1945, neither in 1946, it wasn't until 80's that it was outlawed... I very well remember when it began disappearing of model kits...

And i still ask myself why italian fascist symbol isn't outlawed as well... It was as bad as nazism, and on the losing side...

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 03:34 PM
Thanks KUNKKULA for your interesting contribution....I learned a lot !!

Good luck

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 03:47 PM
D-Spade wrote:
- Yep, political correctness is the right answer.
- Well, actually it would be more accurate to cite
- "fiscal correctness"; removing swasticas will NOT
- hurt sales, but including swasticas MIGHT hurt
- sales.
-
- Ubi is in the video game business for money, not to
- provide historical information. Interestingly, Janes
- IS in that business, and they do include swasticas
- on the German planes.


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XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 10:57 PM
-Wasn't the swastika originally some sort of Buddhist symbol?

Yes it was an it's Hinduist symbol too. You can see it painted on the houses all over India.

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 05:37 PM
Panther,

edit dont miss this from another thread: http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/east/08/10/hk.store.ap/index.html

See why i worry http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

thanks for taking the time to explain your feelings & views on this topic. And the same goes to the many others who have done the same.

I'm sure you understand how for me i feel better not having the swastica on my German planes because I like to imagine I'm always the good guy when I fly. The Red Star i see as representing the Soviet Armed forces-tho my Lithiuanian friends tell me that living under communism is like being at war-quite miserable. So perhaps i am being a hypocrite.
It is a very difficult & complex subject isn't it?

i think i reacted so strongly because i'd had the impression that i was the only one who found the lack of a swastica as no great loss. I'm glad to see that others share my opinion. i certainly have no problem with someone as knowledgeable & respectful of history as Panther from having accurate markings on their planes.
I disagree with those who think including the Swastica in the game somehow educates people about history though. Il2 educates us about the air war not about Naziism.

As for the gov't reaching into our homes to control something like decals on models , well yes you have a very good point. I would argue that in Germany in this one case such action is justified & perhaps even neccessary . But the Germans Must be ultra sensitive to this issuefor obvious reasons.

In america i often run into people who are hypersensitive about their own rights but rather insensitive to others. It leaves me worried for our future sometimes. Anyway it is good to meet such intelligent & good people.

Oh BTW, I am not japanese, my wife is & i lived their for 7 years but i am a simple boy from the farmland of Southern Illinois. Just pick the nickname on the spur of the moment, tho i have come to have a lot of respect for Saburo Sakai & esp the views he expressed condeming the emporer of Japan for not taking responsibility for all the oreders issued in his name.

Happy Virtual Hunting Folks!

Saburo/Doug





http://perso.wanadoo.fr/yak11/autresyaks/df002.jpg

"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

Message Edited on 08/10/0311:47AM by Saburo_0

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 06:40 PM
Cpt.LoneRanger wrote:
- If the game had swatiskas, it would be illegal in
- Germany.
-
- The allied feared, that Germans right arms would
- rise, if they'd look at a swatiska ever again... =/
-
-
-
-
- greets
- Cpt.LoneRanger
-
-
<img
- src="http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/C
- ptLoneRanger.jpg">
-

Again with the Swastika thing lol. I guess if the game came with them it would be illegal. But I know that people do paint the planes with them in Germany. Most all add-on German skins will have them. And then there is the swastika program thing. I'm not sure how it works though. The planes are fine to me as they are.

...and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been and there you long to return.
~leonardo de vinci

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 07:55 PM
My opinion is that truth is the most importamt thing. Where a distortion of the truth is allowed in order to 'protect' people or the state then a step has been taken which Hitler and Stalin would have had no problem with. Freedom of expression is like virginity; you either have it or you do not.

There is a world of difference between organising a Nazi Party in Germany and using the symbol in a non political manner, but the paranoid bureaucrats cannot see this and in any case maybe their insticts are still totalitarian?

Another point, if German aircraft in games have no Swastika then maybe the war was against Germany, and not against Nazi Germany? Surely the whole point of the war was to defeat Nazism, and now we are trying to avoid any display of the swastika in anything that represents the war?

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 08:08 PM
Really, swastikas on planes arent important...I just like to have them on aircraft when I am playing for photo-realism reasons. A german plane just looks like it is missing something without a swastika on the tail, if you are flying it or shooting it down.




www.windhund.org (http://www.windhund.org)

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 05:25 PM
Hiya Saburo 0

Thanks for you post, much appreciated.

Mate, if you feel better flying German planes without the tailfin swastika, good on ya!

And if you are a model builder, and feel better finishing the WW2 German planes without the tailfin swastika, then once again, good on ya, mate!

In my book, as long as you don't hurt anyone else, that's what it's all about - freedom of choice!

And if I am going to ask you to respect MY freedom of choice, then it goes without saying that I must also respect YOURS.

As for the intrusion into home hobbies being necessary anywhere - even in Germany - well, I respect your difference of opinion but in my view, it still seems somewhat questionable.

So long as whatever is done happens in the privacy of the hobbyist's home, I don't see how it can be a problem for anyone.....but.....

On the other hand, I CAN see practical difficulties happening along the line, BEFORE the hobbyist gets his hands on the merchandise. The goods could not be legally displayed in public, or in shops, or advertised in the media, or even electronically transmitted in any way that would show the swastika......

So I guess the German hobbyist who wanted absolute historical accuracy would have to rely on his own resourcefulness and ingenuity to a considerable extent. In fact, I suspect that's what actually happens.

My feeling is that the dedicated ('anal?') home hobbyist was never INTENDED to be caught by such laws - I think he just became 'the dolphin in the shark net'.

I'm just glad it doesn't affect me, and I know I'm really lucky to live in Australia. Perhaps that says it all.

Once again, thanks for the post.

You are a Gentleman!


Salute!

panther3485

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 05:35 PM
For political reasons, But you can have them by using Il2manager.