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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 06:47 PM
I'm sick of people saying don't model this aircraft or that. These people who seem to think that Il-2 is just for them. "Oh don't model the P-80 I don't want it." 1) DON'T USE IT, if you don't want it don't fly the thing. 2) You can RESTRICT the ac allowed in a server. 3) You can fly offline, then you really have total control over what ac are in the mission. I know some will say the AI isn't as good, but remember, Oleg is improving the AI for FB. My appologies if this is in the wrong part of the forum, but this angers me, just because you don't want to see a particular aircraft doesn't mean you have the right to take it away from others who might enjoy it.

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 06:47 PM
I'm sick of people saying don't model this aircraft or that. These people who seem to think that Il-2 is just for them. "Oh don't model the P-80 I don't want it." 1) DON'T USE IT, if you don't want it don't fly the thing. 2) You can RESTRICT the ac allowed in a server. 3) You can fly offline, then you really have total control over what ac are in the mission. I know some will say the AI isn't as good, but remember, Oleg is improving the AI for FB. My appologies if this is in the wrong part of the forum, but this angers me, just because you don't want to see a particular aircraft doesn't mean you have the right to take it away from others who might enjoy it.

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 07:36 PM
Here here.

I don't particularly want to fly the p80 - but knock yourself out if you do!

Seems like there's a lot of intolerance going around today. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 08:31 PM
I figure that I'll try the P-80 if it shows up, but I sincerely doubt that I'll use it online much.

I'll bet most of the whining comes from those folks who don't want to be bothered with running their own servers or building their own Coop missions, otherwise, as you've said, they could just disallow those planes that they didn't want to see.

I think the "full-real" and the "arcade" whiners are cut from the same cloth.

-- 777_Cossack_AVG (One day, you're terrorizing the Ukraine on horseback, the next day, flying a P-39!)

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 08:38 PM
Well I guess I am kinda responsable for this rant since I am the one bringing the P-80 into IL2. It seems to be causing a lot of debate and contraversy. This is MY point of view. Personaly, I dont want the P-80 in the game. I would never build the damn thing if the Me-262 was never going to be flyable. If I had it MY way, IL2 would stay piston engine only! I just dont want to be on a multi-player server with VVS Vs. Ge and the Germans flying 262's against Soviet props. It just wont work. Not without a counter. Thats the ONLY reason I am building the P-80. I think the 262 will have a few weeks of glory, and then it will be restricted from most servers. The thing that really PISSES me off, are the wussy Luftwhiners that WANT the Me-262, but DONT want the P-80. Why? They want to use the 262 against props with inpunity and rule the sky's. I know there will be a few servers out there once the P-80 is flying that will BAN the P-80 for "Historicle accuracy" and allow the Me-262. Something tells me that those servers will be run by Luftwhiners. Those servers I wont join. Just like servers that BAN the LA5FN or most Yak's because the admin just cant use proper tactics and thinks his FW 190 should out turn a I-16.

Gibbage

Die_Ritterkreuz wrote:
- I'm sick of people saying don't model this aircraft
- or that. These people who seem to think that Il-2 is
- just for them. "Oh don't model the P-80 I don't
- want it." 1) DON'T USE IT, if you don't want it
- don't fly the thing. 2) You can RESTRICT the ac
- allowed in a server. 3) You can fly offline, then
- you really have total control over what ac are in
- the mission. I know some will say the AI isn't as
- good, but remember, Oleg is improving the AI for FB.
- My appologies if this is in the wrong part of the
- forum, but this angers me, just because you don't
- want to see a particular aircraft doesn't mean you
- have the right to take it away from others who
- might enjoy it.
-
-
- ________________________________________
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- I didn't catch my mistake until I had made some
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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 09:18 PM
Actually Gibbage, I just used your aircraft as an example, its not just the P-80, but other ac as well (Like the P-51). I think its great that your modeling, and what you model is your choice, I guess thats my point, you choose to model this plane, when you could have chosen not to model anything at all, in which case we all lose. That applies to all third party modelers, you guys volunteer to do this stuff, and when somebady complains about what you guys choose to model it bothers me. It's modelers like you who have given us the flyable Ju-87B-2, the BI-1, and several planes in FB, and more for this talked of post-FB upgrade.

I guess my complaint was also a way of saying thanks to guys like you for not listening to those who rant against your work.

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 09:24 PM
Hey, if those 262 guys want realism, put them in coop missions where they and their wingmen and landing with almost no fuel and no ammo and a dozen Mustangs bounce 'em!

Wanna bet it would be a little too realistic!!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Gibbage, I hope you aren't taking this as any problem with the work you are doing. Eventually, everything that ever flew and fought is going to be modeled in this game. Some folks just gotta quit whining about it and start building the missions and servers that they want.

-- 777_Cossack_AVG (One day, you're terrorizing the Ukraine on horseback, the next day, flying a P-39!)

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 10:17 PM
If you go back on this forum about 6-8 months, you'll find a carbon copy of this thread, except you'd need to substitue Bi-1 for P-80. How often do you see the Bi-1 flown now?

I think we'll probably see more P-80's flown than Bi-1, but still, it's more an emotional issue than one of true significance to the long term playability of the sim. I'm just glad the developers are willing to put so much time into providing the standard of quality control we're getting for add-on planes, rather than taking the M$ way out and leaving the architecture open.

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 10:34 PM
If you want to make this p-80,cool,dig it,the more the marrier.However,there is already a soviet jet aircraft to counter this me 262(b1-16 or something).If the p-80 was not in the eastern front theatre then maybe you should not waste your valuable skills on modeling it and work on something else that was.Im american so freedom of choice is the important thing here.Do what you can,not everyone will be happy no matter what you do.Just make sure it is done right.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 10:47 PM
ZZZZzzzzz

Salutes!

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 10:57 PM
I am only interested in realism. I don't give a flying f*ck about fairness. If I did, I would restrict the La5FN and Yak 9U in all my maps. Fairness isn't the issue for full real fans, its was the plane deployed in combat. In the case of the Me 262 this is a definate yes. The Me 262 was THE standard LW fighter in 1945. Over 1,200 of them were built and atleast 300 of them saw combat. The rest crashed, were destroyed on the ground or were simply stripped for parts. As for the P-80, only 4 of them were deployed and zero of them saw combat. I don't mind Gibbage modeling it, but it isn't even remotely realistic to have it in IL2 and in my oppinion it should be rejected by Oleg. But that is only my oppinion. Many people here don't care about realism and prefer the arcade type style and for them, the P-80 would be a wonderful addition. There is no point in debating this, Gibbage is going to model it no matter what I say and Oleg will either accept it or reject it on his own.

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Message Edited on 10/22/0204:59PM by Maj_Death

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 11:04 PM
To adog37 and Maj_Death, first off I don't want to start a fight, but I think you missed the point of my original post.

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 11:18 PM
Maj_Death wrote:
- I am only interested in realism. I don't give a
- flying f*ck about fairness. If I did, I would
- restrict the La5FN and Yak 9U in all my maps.
- Fairness isn't the issue for full real fans, its was
- the plane deployed in combat. In the case of the Me
- 262 this is a definate yes. The Me 262 was THE
- standard LW fighter in 1945. Over 1,200 of them were
- built and atleast 300 of them saw combat. The rest
- crashed, were destroyed on the ground or were simply
- stripped for parts. As for the P-80, only 4 of them
- were deployed and zero of them saw combat. I don't
- mind Gibbage modeling it, but it isn't even remotely
- realistic to have it in IL2 and in my oppinion it
- should be rejected by Oleg. But that is only my
- oppinion. Many people here don't care about realism
- and prefer the arcade type style and for them, the
- P-80 would be a wonderful addition. There is no
- point in debating this, Gibbage is going to model it
- no matter what I say and Oleg will either accept it
- or reject it on his own.
-
----------------------------------------------------------

Agree ,with what you just said.If it is to be in the game that's fine, but realism would be another story.

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 11:23 PM
I probably did Ritt(lost my train of thought).If maj. d is right about the role the p-80 played in the eastern front,then oleg will probably pass on the p-80 until fb patch 1.06 or something.If your not as enthusiastic as you say about it,why are you working so hard on it?Im not dissing,just blurting out speculation.I could not 3-d model an external fuel pod much less the whole darn bird,but it would be fun for us americans to play with every once in a while.I myself will probably find that most servers will not allow this plane to exist on their servers,so trying to use it will end up in a frustrating search of servers who do have it.I feel you on this though,if Oleg is down then Im down(im singing the national anthem right now),good luck on your project.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 11:32 PM
MajDeath,

Your not really in WW2 you know. It's a freakin game. Get off your realism soap box. I'll fly anything I can crawl into, and have fun doing it. Restrict all you want on your server, just stop telling us about it.

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 12:37 AM
Gibbage, if you want true fairness you'd be better off modeling a Gloster (?) Meteor as that one did see action. Adding a P80 is like adding a mig21. :S

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 12:41 AM
what would be amusing is if the sides paid points for planes and one me262 equalled say 3 la5fn or 6 IL2

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 12:54 AM
I don't fly online anymore so quite frankly as far as i'm concerned the more the merrier .
Model every plane ever made and that will suit me just fine .

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 02:22 AM
I would'nt want to fly with jets personally. But if they can fly with themselves, fine with them!

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 06:32 AM
Why is everyone compairing the P-80 to modern day jets? P-80 did NOT have radar guided missions. It did NOT have Radar at all! It had 6 .50 cal guns. P-80 did NOT break the sound barrier. The P-80 is not some super jet everyone thinks it is! Its very close in performance to the 262. The 262 will have the advantage in firepower (big time) were the P-80 will have the advantage of roll rate. It will be a fair fight in any situation. If the luftwaffa has the only Jet's (262 and 162) in the game, it will not be a fair fight online for the VVS. The Luftwhiners WANT this unfair fight. Thats why they are fighting so damn hard to keep the P-80 out of IL2. Bi-1 is NOT a fair fight against a 262. The Bi1 is slower, and has about 1 min of fuel, and cant hold enough ammo to shoot down a crow! Thats the only reason you dont see BI-1's on servers currently is because of the lack of ammo/fuel. The 262 WONT have this lack, and will dominate. Then people ask for the damn Meteor. The Meteor was NOT a fighter! It was a mud mover! The manufacturer purposly put very tight springs in the controle surfaces to prevent cocky pilots from trying arobatics. British test's confirmed that the Meteor was not much of an improvement over the Typhoon in a fly off. It would get raped by the Me-262. The Vamp never saw combat, and the Vamps that were flying during the war were EXTREAMLY underpowered. Nothing is a suitable match for the 262, but the P-80. Its the only thing that will combat the Me-262 that was available then.

Gibbage

Red_Storm wrote:
- Gibbage, if you want true fairness you'd be better
- off modeling a Gloster (?) Meteor as that one did
- see action. Adding a P80 is like adding a mig21. :S
-
-



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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 06:43 AM
I am not so certain that the 262 will dominate in FB or IL2.

JG27>Targ
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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 06:51 AM
why are you certain at all? the 262 was meant to be a bomber interceptor. i don't think it would have an advantage against an La7 at all, if modeled correctly. (of course it could always run...)

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 07:07 AM
I was trying to be diplomatic about it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Offline I think the 262 will rock as a bomber interceptor. Online... well I think it will be fun to fly. All I can say is that if the 262 and the p80 are all that is flown online I will have no choice but to fly the rata. I will never ever get shot down again /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 07:16 AM
well when Fb comes you will find me chuggin about in I153's and gladiators and if i spot any jets i will just duck http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 07:17 AM
Let me get this right Do we have someone "whineing" that the Luftwiners will have an UNfair advantage?!?! OMG
could it be true? Hmmm it would be nice for a change.So what's the new name gona be Sovietwiners ? Not that i care really just couldn't resist ....http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 07:48 AM
I don't think I have meet a bunch of self centered A$$wipes in my life. Gibbage1, man I appreciate any aircraft you are modeling and I am also hanging to fly the P-80. Bring it on it's another glorious plane to fly.

Maj_Death Do you always speek to people like that who are doing something for you out of the kindness of there own heart?. If you do I think you have lived in your PC too long. Get in the real world Jerk.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 08:06 AM
Maybe at the beginning some will fly the P-80, but that will soon stops.

I guess it´s not too funny trying to chase some hastily whirrling prop-fighter with that over 200mph faster P-80, especially Online.

Pilots with 20+% of fired/hit rounds ratio are the better ones Online, but to place that quantitiy on rounds at the target you need time to aim. With the P-80 that time range is much much smaller - and I´m sure most will cease with the P-80 caused of frustration not to down slower planes./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

IMHO Gibbage would be smarter build maybe the missing H-75/P-36 for FB or the MS-406 Cockpit to make that plane flyable. IMHO the P-80 will don´t bring the expected effect for IL-2 for the working hours Gibbage will apply in that project. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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michapma
10-23-2002, 09:10 AM
In this thread we apparantly need the following disclaimer: This post reflects my thoughts. I do not claim to know more or to be better than you. Feel free to call me names if you like.

I also would like to see the P-80 modeled, if for no other reason than to compare the flight model with the one in a certain other flight sim. However, I don't see the need for the P-80 as a counter to the Me262, and I think it would go the way of the Bi-1 (fun to fly, but not practical in dogfights due to short fuel supply). I am not even a very good pilot and I have shot down an ace Me262 in a P-39 in a mixed dogfight offline; you just have to catch them at a disadvantage. Sure, if you pit an equal number of 262s against the prop planes we already have with no initial situational advantage, the 262s have the advantage of being able to choose the fight.

The 262s are effective primarily against relatively stationary targets: bombers and ground targets. I have the strong impression that they are not very highly effective in getting kills against fighters, both historically and in IL-2. They just can't bring their guns to bear on more maneuverable targets. If caught at a disadvantage, such as when returning from a mission at low altitude and spotted from above, they have no choice but to try to outrun, bail or crash-land. Me 262s used to depend on their airfield's AA to be able to land safely. It is important to realize that they also do not have the fuel reserves of normal fighters. I recall that they had about 30 mintues worth of flight time. If you just throw them into a server, then they have time to fight, but in a mission the pilot had better think twice before being engaged or even spotted.

Oh, you also don't even need to see these planes coming, when you hear that jet engine whine, just go evasive. It's highly reasonable to believe that even a skilled Me262 pilot couldn't shoot down an I-153.

Mike

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 01:53 PM
True. Those jets (p80 or Me262) just can't get their guns on target. I've seen it in Warbirds, where you seldom see the Me262 (warbirds has MUCH easier gunnery). You'll probably see a Me262 or a P80 online, but not much. But hey, the more planes the merrier 8) I'd like to see ALL ww2 planes in Il-2 ^_^

(PS I think ppl here should be a bit carefull with what they say, because I think this thread is spinning out of control...)

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 08:35 PM
krysdal wrote:

- Maj_Death Do you always speek to people like that
- who are doing something for you out of the kindness
- of there own heart?. If you do I think you have
- lived in your PC too long. Get in the real world
- Jerk.
-
-

You obviosly didn't read my post very well. Go back and read it again. I didn't insult Gibbage in any way. However you did just insult me.

Edit: It seems a few people didn't understand what I was trying to say in my previous post so I will try to simplify it. I firmly believe the P-80 has no place in IL2 BUT some people want it. I doubt I will change anyones oppinion and they cannot change mine and so there is absolutly no point in argueing about it.

----------------------------------------
"All I want in life is to be happy"
That seems fine to me
How f*cked things can be
Everytime I get ahead
I wind up dead./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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Message Edited on 10/23/0202:42PM by Maj_Death

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 08:45 PM
MD,
What's insulting is, it's your way, or it's arcade. That is in your post. you have a way of looking down your nose at anything that isn't your way. It's getting old, and annoying.

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 09:39 PM
Did I ever say there is anything wrong with playing IL2 as an arcade game? You are assuming I consider arcade settings, maps and plane sets as "bad". You and a few other people seem to love to stick words into my mouth and it is getting very annoying so please stop it.

----------------------------------------
"All I want in life is to be happy"
That seems fine to me
How f*cked things can be
Everytime I get ahead
I wind up dead./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 09:46 PM
2 points. Nobody fly's the BI1 due to lack of fuel and lack of ammo. Has nothing to do with it being good/bad/or fun. If you go into an "arcade" game with unlimited fuel and ammo, you see the little buggers all over the damn place, and they are hard as hell to shoot down. Yes, it can be fun, but you must wait for them to do something stupid. Like turn http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Thats why they play in arcade. They are eather there to have fun, or cant fly well. In both cases, they make errors in flight controle you can take advantage of. In a server with stalls and limited ammo and fuel, the BI-1 cant shoot down anything. If it had 1 hour of fuel, and 4 30MM cannons, you bet your *** people would fly it!

Lets just all agree on something. The AI sucks ***. It cant use the 262 like it should. Killing them is easy. Even newbies on arcade servers put up more of a fight then Ace AI's. If a Me-262 gives me a head on in a P-39 N-1, I can tear both engines off his wing with no problem. Online, a human pilot that knows better will never give you that chance. They will poince on the distracted players, and fly away pointing the business end of his fighter at him. As for hearing the whine of the jet, most people online are target fixated. Just one last shot hay? Tunnel vision sets in, and you ignore everything. Even the tracers wizzing by your head. Just for that 1 last shot. Good luck. We will see how the Me-262 panns out when FB is released. My guess is people will be crying for a solution to them soon, or banning them from servers. Well not the Luftwaffa pilots at least. They will be living it up in there moment of glory they were denied back in 1945.

Gibbage

michapma wrote:
- don't see the need for the P-80 as a counter to the
- Me262, and I think it would go the way of the Bi-1
- (fun to fly, but not practical in dogfights due to
- short fuel supply). I am not even a very good pilot
- and I have shot down an ace Me262 in a P-39 in a
- mixed dogfight offline; you just have to catch them
- at a disadvantage.

"Openions are like a$$holes. Everyone has one, and they all stink."

<a href=http://gibbage.tripod.com><center>http://gibbage.tripod.com</a>

" TARGET=_blank>http://gibbage.tripod.com/sig01.jpg"</center> (http://gibbage.tripod.com/sig01.jpg)

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 09:49 PM
__________________________________________________ _________
Gibbage1 wrote:
I just dont want to be on a multi-player
server with VVS Vs. Ge and the Germans flying 262's
against Soviet props. It just wont work. Not
without a counter.-

Gibbage

__________________________________________________ _________

That's because most of the people flying the 262 will need all the help they can to win and get a few kills. Sort of like why most people use a squad automatic weapon on the delta force series games (other game I play). They can't win without it.

Leben Sie heute, für morgen zu k¤mpfen

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 10:05 PM
MD,

So, we're bothed annoyed with each other. Maybe we should both stop posting../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif You go first.

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 10:28 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- MD,
-
- So, we're bothed annoyed with each other. Maybe we
- should both stop posting

LOL, I insist you go first/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif . Besides, I need to rack up 2,000 posts before I leave/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

Seriously though, there are a wide variety of cultures and as a result there are alot of different connotations (not a chance I spelled that right) for each word I type. I can't always predict how people will react to the words I use. I try to avoid words with negative connotations but that doesn't always work. In this case you and a few other people took "arcade" as demeaning which isn't what I intended.

----------------------------------------
"All I want in life is to be happy"
That seems fine to me
How f*cked things can be
Everytime I get ahead
I wind up dead./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://www.bestanimations.com/Humans/Skulls/Skull-06.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 10:37 PM
Ok, no harm, no foul.

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 02:49 AM
Boy! Who is gonna win? Luftwhiners or Gibbagewhiners :^)

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 03:46 AM
Niether, the P-80 will tourch the Me 262's engines but the Me 262 will blow up the P-80 before it explodes/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

----------------------------------------
"All I want in life is to be happy"
That seems fine to me
How f*cked things can be
Everytime I get ahead
I wind up dead./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://www.bestanimations.com/Humans/Skulls/Skull-06.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 07:26 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- MD,
- What's insulting is, it's your way, or it's
- arcade.

But MD's right.

Icons = Arcade.
Nocockpit = Arcade.
Unrealistic planes = Arcade.
Map icons, anything but fullreal = Arcade.


http://www.iki.fi/werre/109small.jpg
http://www.iki.fi/werre/fsck_cencorship.jpg

"God kills a kitten everytime I switch off the cockpit." - Visigoth 6

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 08:43 AM
Personally I would add to that list


Speedbar (LHS text speed and heading) = Arcade
Padlock = Arcade
HUD (RHS overheat warnings etc) = Arcade
Translated Pilot voices = Arcade
Use of map for showing your current position = Arcade


But I also would say .. so what .. there is nothing inherently evil about Arcade settings!!!!

Arcade settings have a place just as full real has a place

in some scenarios full real makes a game boring and unplayable, in other scenarios (2 airfield vulch maps for example) arcade makes the game boring and unplayable


lets just stp this arcade vs ful real nonsense both modesare valid

michapma
10-24-2002, 08:52 AM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- Lets just all agree on something. The AI sucks ***.
- It cant use the 262 like it should. Killing them
- is easy. Even newbies on arcade servers put up more
- of a fight then Ace AI's. If a Me-262 gives me a

I can't agree, as I've never played online. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

- head on in a P-39 N-1, I can tear both engines off
- his wing with no problem. Online, a human pilot

Good on ya. I don't know if I can claim that. Need more hours. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

- that knows better will never give you that chance.
- They will poince on the distracted players, and fly
- away pointing the business end of his fighter at
- him. As for hearing the whine of the jet, most
- people online are target fixated. Just one last
- shot hay? Tunnel vision sets in, and you ignore
- everything. Even the tracers wizzing by your head.
- Just for that 1 last shot. Good luck. We will see
- how the Me-262 panns out when FB is released. My

If they need those kinds of kills, then fine. I hop I won't be so easy to kill when I go online.

- guess is people will be crying for a solution to
- them soon, or banning them from servers. Well not
- the Luftwaffa pilots at least. They will be living
- it up in there moment of glory they were denied back
- in 1945.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Are there such oldies amongst us?! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

You won't hear me whining about the Me 262. Great plane. I'm eager to use it against well-protected bombers offline.

Mike

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 10:51 AM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- Well I guess I am kinda responsable for this rant
- since I am the one bringing the P-80 into IL2. It
- seems to be causing a lot of debate and contraversy.
- This is MY point of view. Personaly, I dont want
- the P-80 in the game. I would never build the damn
- thing if the Me-262 was never going to be flyable.

That seems a strange position to take, to me. "The
Axis is going to have a plane they really had and
used during WW2 so we want a plane that wasn't in
service in any numbers in WW2". It seems odd to me.
Does this mean if the B17 is modelled sometime the
Axis should get to have a Ju290 model to 'counter' it?
Adding planes to 'counter' other planes when the counter
saw little service will be never ending. There were
a huge number of serial production planes, let alone
little used or experimental ones! I worry that people
will want a P-80 counter and there will be a clamour
for more and more exotic stuff that leads to Oleg
being harangued when he has better things to do with
his time (maybe he'd like to sleep sometimes!)

I'm also concerned that there will be a big punch-up
on here between the usual suspects over whether the
FM of the P-80 is right compared to the 262. Maybe
there should be a P-80 v 262 board for the purpose :-)

You are obviously a talented person, Gibbage (I've
messed around with some of the 3d packages and can't
make a thing with them) but your reasons for making
the P-80 seem odd. But if you want to make it, that's
up to you, and when it is released I am sure I will
try it out and appreciate your hard work and the amount
you spent on research. I am sure it will be a wonderful
piece of work.

When all is said and done, though, people can always
create servers that exclude any number of aircraft,
so if people don't want the P-80 they don't have to
use it.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 06:51 PM
Just my two cents here - as many here have observed, hosts have the right to restrict the planeset. So Gibb and others should make the P-80 and whatever else is of interest, and let the host make the call.

If a host wants the P-80 to counter the 262, fine. I think it's a good idea and will help keep a balance on DF servers that allow 262s.

If a host doesn't want the P-80 to counter the 262, that's fine. You can play or not join.

For what it's worth, there are very effective ways to counter 262s. I've seen a few almost-FR servers where the 262 pilots have over 2000 points and everyone else is below 500. In those situations, the underdog in me usually gets his way - I flip sides to VVS (I'm a confirmed FW flier) and cap the blue bases with an LA7, despite complaints and moans about vulching (an OKL pilot once told me I was embarassing myself - lol).

Heck, if the 262 is full real, so is vulching. Please build the P-80. The host will decide and maybe there will be less vulching because there's an alternative to capping the OKL bases.