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View Full Version : Who won the Battle of Britain



smokincrater
08-26-2006, 07:14 AM
reading the news on the net I came by this article. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20244993-2703,00.html
So what do you think?

Low_Flyer_MkVb
08-26-2006, 07:33 AM
Quite a debate going on in GD about this...

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/7611082574

VW-IceFire
08-26-2006, 10:18 AM
To sum it up...the RAF won the battle, the RN was the guard dog with a loud bark. It might be ferocious but we don't want to let it loose just yet.

leitmotiv
08-26-2006, 01:17 PM
The Germans rightfully view the B of Brit as running from July 1940, with the initial attacks on coastal convoys, until 10 May 1941, the date of the hardest blow to London in the Blitz right before the redeployment of almost every bomber Geschwader to the East. Of course the British won because Hitler was not able to invade, their morale did not collapse during the Blitz, and the devastating attacks on the port cities in the Blitz failed to prevent supplies from reaching the UK. Having stated the obvious, there was the darkest period of the Blitz from the devastation of Coventry through the winter of 1940-41 when the Germans just about had it all their own way as the cities burned by night. But, by May '41, the Beaufighters were inflicting unacceptable casualties on the bomber force on some nights. The entire battle, by day and by night, was a hard fight. To trivialize it, as is fashionable now, merely shows how little the people born from the '50's onward know about history.

slipBall
08-26-2006, 01:27 PM
The Brits won, all because they accidently bombed Berlin. Hitler then turned the attention to bombing London, RAF had the pressure removed from them, and were able to re-group, re-supply, re-build, and rest

PLANEMAD
08-26-2006, 03:21 PM
the few! RAF!

VW-IceFire
08-26-2006, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by slipBall:
The Brits won, all because they accidently bombed Berlin. Hitler then turned the attention to bombing London, RAF had the pressure removed from them, and were able to re-group, re-supply, re-build, and rest
Actually the Luftwaffe mistakenly bombed London at night, and the RAF then bombed Berlin mostly for symbolic purposes, and then the attention turned towards London.

slipBall
08-26-2006, 03:46 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif, must have been that last beer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Adam906
08-27-2006, 09:26 PM
The Battle of Britain was a stand alone operation and was originally commenced and planned as such. This is something that a very vast majority of people often ignore/are not aware of or simply find too unaccomodating in their conclusions/thesis..There is a tendency to role the BoB and Sealion into one compact operation and this is not the case. BoB was about the achieving of air supremacy and destruction of the RAF. Sealion was about an invasion of Britain. They are two separate operations, which unfortunately, seems to have become lost on many. Hence, the role of the Royal Navy in BoB is not a compatible subject - it is when discussing Sealion.

Now, as for who won BoB: The short answer is no-one. By May 1941 most of the Luftwaffe was fighting elsewhere, yet those few units left ranged against Britain - which included her shipping, even out into the Atlantic, as per Directive 23 of Feb 41, were still inflicting severe casualties on Britain.

The simple fact that the Luftwaffe was still able to inflict significant losses, proportional to their level of commitment in the region defined by modern interpreations of the BoB geographic sphere (this, therefore includes Luftflotte 5, and attacks in the North Sea and Atlantic) and that RAF offensive sorties and night bombing raids still faced heavy opposition into 1942 does much to over-turn the myth that Britain "won" the BoB.

If the BoB had have been a victory for the RAF then much of what the Luftwaffe continued to do and was more than capable of would simply not have been possible.

By May 1941 operational necessities in other theatres had forced a redirection of German effort away from Britain, which was now, for all intents and puproses, a backwater. Operations in the region moved to simply one of holding the RAF and Britain at bay - which it did admirably until late 42/early 43.

The Luftwaffe was unable to fulfill its objectives in preparation for Sealion, so it diverted its attention to a more manageable style of engagement. Thus, the Luftwaffe could not claim victory.

The RAF, meanwhile, was unable to completely force the Luftwaffe from British skies, nor make the shipping lanes around England and out into the Atlantic and North Sea safe from aerial attack. It could not even garuantee the safety of its bomber or coastal aircraft in British skies. The Battle of Britain - and this important - was about control of the skies above the Channel and south-eastern England. While the RAF was able to force a shift in bombing policy by the Luftwaffe (complete withdrawal of Stukas and the shift to night bombing by the Kampfgruppen), it was unable to remove the threat completely of the Luftwaffe. Raids were still conducted, freie jagd by JG 2 and 26 still occurred and ships were still sunk in the channel - none of which would have been possible if the RAF had "won" the BoB, and therefore forced the Luftwaffe from British skies. Hence, the RAF could not claim they won the battle.

As I said, the BoB was about a battle for air supremacy, not an invasion. The luftwaffe didn't win complete air superiority/destroy the RAF, while the RAF was unable to repel the Luftwaffe from its air space and as a result the British continued to suffer mounting losses in the geogrpahic areas defined by the BoB until well after the accepted dates (either October '40 or May 41) of its conclusion.

Ergo, no-one "won" the Battle of Britain. It was a tactical draw and the best that either side could have hoped for under the circumstances.

gdfo
08-28-2006, 05:14 AM
Actually if the RAF was able to keep the skys relatively clear of enemy aircraft then the UK won and that is what really happened.

I think the BOB was not thought of like it is today when the war was on. The RAF turned the tide of battle and the German war machine was not able to destroy the RAF and not able to invade Britain.

The spirit of the British people won the battle of Britain.

Wtornado_439th
08-28-2006, 06:18 AM
Hitler won the Battle of Britain for England.

Not listening to his Generals
to continue attacking the radar
stations and to continue bombing
and raiding the airfields to bleed
the RAF dry he opted to attack the
cities out of rage.Thank god he wasen't
good statigist.

With his constant meddling in the OKL affairs
he luckly for us screwed everything up.
There wasen't a major battle that he didn't
screw up.

So hats off for Hitler http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif


White tornado

TgD Thunderbolt56
08-28-2006, 08:09 AM
Who won the Battle of Britain?

the survivors...

Adam906
08-28-2006, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by gdfo:
Actually if the RAF was able to keep the skys relatively clear of enemy aircraft then the UK won and that is what really happened.

When did the RAF manage to keep the skies relatively clear of the Luftwaffe? Certainly not before May 1941?

Only through the winter months of 40/41 did the sortie level drop and that had nothing to do with the RAF, but the weather.

By 1941, a significant proportion of effort was still directed against land-based targets. While the Luftwaffe managed nearly 1,100 anti-shipping sorties (not including fighter-escort sorties) in the five months, February €" June 1941, not more than eight percent of the Luftwaffe€s total efforts from February to May was in support of the war on shipping.

Based on that evidence, I would hardly rely on your claim that the RAF was able to keep the skies relatively clear of the Luftwaffe...

Remember, the BoB was not just fought over south-western England, it also included the Channel and its lower and upper regions and as far as the Irish Sea and the fringes of the Atlantic and North Sea...

As I previously stated, the BoB was about air supremacy, the Luftwaffe could not keep the gains they won during July/August, but by the same token, the RAF could not regain complete mastery of its own and surrounding air space until well after the battle finished. Ergo, no-one "won" the Battle of Britain. It was a tactical draw. Nothing more, nothing less

leitmotiv
08-28-2006, 04:43 PM
Shareholders in Vickers, Hawker, Messerschmitt, Heinkel, Dornier, and Junkers.

Skoshi Tiger
08-29-2006, 06:16 AM
I'll have to go to the library to find the book I read a little while ago about the Battle of Britain. In it the author maintained that operation Sealion was never a serious attempt by the Germans to invade England.

Without air superiority any serious naval activity in the chanel (by either side) would be suicide (As shown in the attacks on the convoys early on in the BoB).

The preparations begun by Germany was a show of force and an attempt to break the morale of the british people and force the British people to surender without a fight.

Now even without total air superiority the continual presence of the RAF in the air above Britain was a visible sign to the people than no matter how much propoganda put out by the Germans, Britain was still able to defend herself and the British morale and their resolve to keep on fighting increased.

Now in my opinion it was the RAF and not the Royal Navy that clearly stopped the LW from achieving its objective of achieving air superiority over England, which in turn helped maintain the British will to fight so, I'ld say that they won the Battle of Britain.

jpatrick62
08-30-2006, 02:24 PM
There seems to be some historical revisionism going on here. Who won the BOB - the British did. They prevented the Germans from controlling the airspace above the English Channel, ergo they removed the possibility that the Royal Navy, in an attempt to stop the landing of German barges,being destroyed by the Luftwaffe. If the Luftwaffe had destroyed fighter command, then they would have been able to provide uninterrupted fighter cover for for operaion Sealion. Since they did not achieve those directives, operation Sealion would have been mightily challenged by the Royal Navy and would have no hope.

zeno303
08-30-2006, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by JPatrick62:
There seems to be some historical revisionism going on here. Who won the BOB - the British did. They prevented the Germans from controlling the airspace above the English Channel, ergo they removed the possibility that the Royal Navy, in an attempt to stop the landing of German barges,being destroyed by the Luftwaffe. If the Luftwaffe had destroyed fighter command, then they would have been able to provide uninterrupted fighter cover for for operaion Sealion. Since they did not achieve those directives, operation Sealion would have been mightily challenged by the Royal Navy and would have no hope.

Just so. To see what happened to an RN task force attempting to turn back a seaborne invasion without the benefit of air cover, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_Prince_of_Wales_and_Repulse

Philipscdrw
08-31-2006, 06:40 AM
The RAF also won the Battle of Trafalgar, but it got hushed up by the Establishment.

WB_Outlaw
08-31-2006, 02:17 PM
I did.

--Outlaw.

sparrow420
08-31-2006, 02:45 PM
More food for thoughts...

From: "Air force blunders" (Geoffrey Regan)

<Quote>

Production figures for single seat fighters in 1940: Britain Germany
June 446 164
July 496 220
August 476 173
September 467 218
October 469 144

Moreover, during the period of the battle, the "few" averaged over 700 Hurricanes and Spitfires available at anyone time, as well as over 1300 Fighter Command pilots to fly them. With the Germans unable to replace their losses it was the Luftwaffe Fighter force who was facing elimination in October 1940, not Fighter Command.

<end quote>


Cheers,

Sparrow

MiamiEagle
09-01-2006, 10:39 AM
I love this kind of debate. This is the period of World war two that facinates me the most. World war was really exciting from 1939 to June 1942 when the Japanese lost the Battle of Midway. After the Battle of Midway any one who understood Military matters realize the Axis power had lost the war.

Even the Battle of Stalingrad and the Battle of El Alemain where not as important as the Battle of Britain and the Battle of Midway in deciding the war.

As for the Battle of Britain there were many factors that decided it. First of all the World and British people where very fortunate to have the right leader at the right time. I"am talking obout P.M. Wiston Churchill who beyond political logical reasoning refuse to negociate with the NaziS Goverment at that time. For all practical purpose Britain was a defeated Nation in June 1940. But He refuse to accept it and inspire the British people to fight on with out any logical understanding on how to achieve final Victiory over the Germans.

Another factor is the German never really
serously intended to invade Great Britain. There real intention was to Bomb them into sumition and force them to nagociate with them a peaceful settlement.

Hitler alway consider the British racialy in par with the German and He rather have them as a Ally then a advesary.

Another factor was the German navy was not suitable for the task as the German Arm Forces were really dominated by the Army.

The Navy was in third place behind the Army and the Airforce in priority and resources and in trianing.

The German Airforces did not have like the Japanese the capability nor the planes or the training for a long range bombing campaign.


The British also had the tecnological advantage of having Radar.

In the End it was the British Air Force and its Navy plus its leader and the fortitude of it people and the Germans Military machine ineptness for that kind of operation that allow Great Britain to win the Battle of Britain.

Thanks God for that. Winston war right when He said there shall be a thousand year of Dark age in World history if the Island of Britain fell to the Nazis


Miamieagle