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GH_Klingstroem
05-14-2006, 05:19 AM
Well are they? I somehow found my old CFS1 manual and in last pages of it, it describes different weapons and their effect on other AC. All weapons seem pretty spot on including the 30m cannon (which according to their manual requires only hit to down a fighter and 3-5 for heavy bombers) However the manual states that you need up to 10-20 hits with the 20mm round to down a fighter. Also for the hispano. In Il2 the 20mm nowadays is very strong. I remember how it was a few years ago when the german 20mm didnt do much damage but that was only compared to the russian and the british 20mm cannon. Maybe they were right from the beginnig and the VVS and the British 20mm were too strong and now they all are?
what do you think? Is the Microsoft manual wrong as the rest of their Combat flight sims are?

cheers

Spinnetti
05-14-2006, 05:29 AM
Well, I'm no authority, but I sure wouldn't use microsoft as a source of ANY accurate information. Have you played their sims? Not even worth it free.

Anyway, the power of the 20mm has yo-yo'd up and down seemingly with each release since the original. The 20mm is a powerful cannon, and I think its pretty good now, but maybe thats just my preference. There are some good articles about gun effectiveness - This articles says the 20mm is 3x as good as 50cals... http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/CannonMGs.htm just do a google search on 20mm cannon effectivness. Lots of good info out there to do your own research instead of listening to a bunch of gamers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Airway_
05-14-2006, 05:44 AM
Are the 20mm cannons too strong?

I don´t think they are.

Airway

HellToupee
05-14-2006, 06:28 AM
i think all guns are too weak from 303s to 30mm even, often it can take over 20 20mm hispanos to down a 109 at times, i think it was more 5-10 20mm hits to kill and 15-20 50cal hits.

Its inconsitant to, shot the wing off a 190 with long range tap shot from the rear, other times put over 100 50s in from point blank to achive little visable dmg.

Try flying the early lightly armed planes eg ki43 g.50 etc uld think pulling along side and using a side arm would be more effective

carguy_
05-14-2006, 07:01 AM
I certainly hope you`re not trolling.Because you caught me.

First off,I was never hit more than 7 times with ShVak.Vast majority of my bail outs were after 3-4 hits.From my perspective ShVak is devastating aswell as Hispano.FW190 takes more but that`s rather correct.Well,maybe too many cockpit hits leave my pilot intact,that`s all.


20 hits to down a fighter?You mean downing = cutting in half(?).20mm don`t work only there where armor is and noly when it`s not AP round.Normally 20mm were very effective and enough to bring a fighter down.You get a round into fuselage = dead,wing = big hole,plane crippled,main airframe hit = hidraulics done.

Ofcourse we don`t have stuff like being burned by hot oil spilling on you,gasoline on fire flooding the cockpit,glicol,smoke - when that appeared the fighter might be visible as intact but the pilot was in grave danger and very lucky if left cockpit in time.


Ofcourse I don`t speak about delta wood(R) equipped planes.They were armored all over with it.Wonder why they didn`t use wood to cover engine block.

JtD
05-14-2006, 07:43 AM
In general I don't think they are too strong, but there are expections to the rule. I see more problems with the insufficient complexity of DM to deal with the weapons than with the weapons themselves.

Btw, the German Schiessfibel states 10 20mm for a fighter or 2 30 mm hits (iirc).

BaronUnderpants
05-14-2006, 07:47 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by carguy_:

20 hits to down a fighter?You mean downing = cutting in half(?).

QUOTE]


Exactly. In game nothing short of cutting a ac in half, blowing it up, take a wing of is concidered a downed ac.

Usually it only takes 1-5 20 mm hits to "down" a ac ( fighter ) in a RL sense.

So, a Spit swooping arround in a dogfight with smoke guzzling from the engine for 10 min isnt considered realistic. But since its a game, thats what happens

GH_Klingstroem
05-14-2006, 07:47 AM
of course im not trolling! Im refering to whats written in another manual and comparing it to what we have in game...

F19_Ob
05-14-2006, 08:03 AM
......Or some individual hitboxes might be too weak, like the tail-hitbox of the p47.

Damage is a complicated thing to tune but I think one can atleast fix some of the worst problems by tuning a few individual hitboxes that obviously are too weak, like the above mentioned plane. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Overall I'm pretty happy with the balance, but here and there are a few small things to tune.

Don't think they will touch it anymore though.

StG2_Schlachter
05-14-2006, 08:46 AM
It is not the weapon that is too weak, but the simple damage modelling of some planes.

The 2cm is pretty spot IMHO.

LEBillfish
05-14-2006, 08:47 AM
No........


Next question?

VW-IceFire
05-14-2006, 09:09 AM
If anything all the weapons are still somewhat weak. But I think as we get more detailed DMs with more components that are damageable this will no longer be an issue.

Oleg's interview mentions that the new DM system will count battle damage into the structural strength of the plane. So pulling a high G move after someone put some 20mms through your wing will not only be difficult but you may cause further deterioration of the wing or break it off under the stress.

FritzGryphon
05-14-2006, 12:54 PM
In tests by forum denizens, the average number of 20m hits to kill is consistantly found to be about 5-6. For lighter planes, like Zero, only 2-3 average. For larger, 5-10. This is to kill, not 'omg I blew him up.'

The number of hits to kill with M2 machine gun is generally 2-4 times that. The number of hits for 30cal generally 5-10 times that.

MG effectiveness is more variable because it depends largely on flammability and pilot protection. Flammable planes like P-39 or Zero die easily from MG fire, as little as 7 M2 hits average, or 15 30cal. More armored planes are less damaged by MGs. However, in no case was it found that MGs kill in fewer hits than cannons.

Overall, it's very accurate within the limits of a simulation. With the addition of some missing DM elements in BoB like raditors and such, it should be even better.

----

Oh, and the P-47 tail, whe compared to 109, La and Yak, is the strongest, averaging 6 hits to break as opposed to 3-4.

The difference seems to be that the P-47 empenage is extremely fat from he rear aspect, and therefore is likely to suffer more hits. At least 2-3 times the rear surface area of a 109, and therefore a 2-3x greater chance of hit.

Often the shape and size of the plane and it's collision boxes has more do do with its destruction than it's actual durability. It's why, for example, the I-16 is so hard to kill.

mortoma1958
05-14-2006, 04:51 PM
I don't know if the German 20mm is too strong or not. But one thing I do know is that if they increased the power of the 20mm, then they should have increased it for the 15mm that the Bf-109F2 carries. But they didn't. Would have been about right if they would have increased it's power to about the power of the previous 20mm!!!!!!!!

FritzGryphon
05-14-2006, 05:21 PM
My understanding is that the individual weapon damage values are based on unchanging specs. Specifically, the mass of the bullet, amount of explosive and hit velocity. There's a list of these numbers somewhere on the forum.

When weapon damage is changed in the game, the entire weapon model is either increased or decreased. All weapons get equally more or less powerful, because their relative weight and explosive content can't change.

The only time individual weapons have changed power is when there was an error in the basic specs for it, or when the ammo type was changed.

The MG151/20 got more powerful because the ammo load changed. I don't think the MG151/15 uses mine shells, so it wouldn't have changed.

Kocur_
05-14-2006, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by mortoma1958:
I don't know if the German 20mm is too strong or not. But one thing I do know is that if they increased the power of the 20mm, then they should have increased it for the 15mm that the Bf-109F2 carries. But they didn't. Would have been about right if they would have increased it's power to about the power of the previous 20mm!!!!!!!!

They did not "increace power" of MG151/20!!! They added Minengeschoss projectiles to the belting, and those were IRL considerably more powerful than usual ones, so total power of that 20mm cannon is now greater than previously.
MG151/15 just did not have such projectiles AFAIK.

WTE_Galway
05-14-2006, 10:38 PM
one suspects a troll ... generally discussions on this forum tend towards people claiming guns are too weak ... mainly because:

- they generally couldn't hit a barn door at 10 paces
- when they do hit its out of convergence so only a couple of shells actually collect the target
- they fire from dead 6 meaning they either hit the rear armor plate or score a glancing shot on a wing or tailplane that barely scratches it
- if they do try deflection shooting is a "lets spray and see what we get affair"
- for them a "kill" means to explode, blow a wing off or kill the pilot rather than damage enough to eventually bring down (admittedly online you need to do this or your kill will be stolen)



Taking the 20 mm question seriously .. I think the simple answer is this ..

Q: Can a fighter take 20 hits of 20 mm before going down ?
A: If the 20 shots are erratic wild ones that scatter all over the place or hit the rear armor from the six ... yes it can.

Q: Can a single well placed 20mm shot kill the same fighter ?
A: Absolutely.

HellToupee
05-14-2006, 11:37 PM
ive seen many a time fighters taking far too many hits and still being in condition to fly home or even continue fighting.

Flying a spit 9e vs a ta152, was the first enemy incounter of the day so i used gunstat to record hits required to kill it, i achived 79 hits of combined .50 cal and 20mm he had a fuel leak and lost his elevator controls so he bailed.

Offline also seems far differnt to online, one pass at ju88s i can have multiple ju88s on fire about to go down, yet online it takes 3x more to achive less, ive been on the receiving end a few times to offline a single pe3 will hae me in a ju88 going down, online i had a p38 with gunpods a tempest and a 47 all attack me scoring tones of hits i shot down 2 with the rear guns , all i got was a fire which took the wing off half way home.

WTE_Galway
05-14-2006, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
ive seen many a time fighters taking far too many hits and still being in condition to fly home or even continue fighting.

Flying a spit 9e vs a ta152, was the first enemy incounter of the day so i used gunstat to record hits required to kill it, i achived 79 hits of combined .50 cal and 20mm he had a fuel leak and lost his elevator controls so he bailed.

Offline also seems far differnt to online, one pass at ju88s i can have multiple ju88s on fire about to go down, yet online it takes 3x more to achive less, ive been on the receiving end a few times to offline a single pe3 will hae me in a ju88 going down, online i had a p38 with gunpods a tempest and a 47 all attack me scoring tones of hits i shot down 2 with the rear guns , all i got was a fire which took the wing off half way home.

well offline you can pilot kill a ju88 in one headon pass .. even with a hurricane and 0.303's

HellToupee
05-15-2006, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
ive seen many a time fighters taking far too many hits and still being in condition to fly home or even continue fighting.

Flying a spit 9e vs a ta152, was the first enemy incounter of the day so i used gunstat to record hits required to kill it, i achived 79 hits of combined .50 cal and 20mm he had a fuel leak and lost his elevator controls so he bailed.

Offline also seems far differnt to online, one pass at ju88s i can have multiple ju88s on fire about to go down, yet online it takes 3x more to achive less, ive been on the receiving end a few times to offline a single pe3 will hae me in a ju88 going down, online i had a p38 with gunpods a tempest and a 47 all attack me scoring tones of hits i shot down 2 with the rear guns , all i got was a fire which took the wing off half way home.

well offline you can pilot kill a ju88 in one headon pass .. even with a hurricane and 0.303's </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hell u can pk them by throwing cannons into their engines or shooting their tail, im talking visual dammage, not the seeminly random pks.

Abbuzze
05-15-2006, 12:45 AM
The 20 20mm hits are correct and an official statement of the LW - For bombers!!!

For fighters are around 5 hits necessary. If you hit "good" with a 20mm HE it could looks like this way:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p1234/bilder/MGFFwDelay.jpg

LUFT11_Hoflich
05-15-2006, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:Q: Can a single well placed 20mm shot kill the same fighter ?
A: Absolutely.

Agree... I've hit wing surfaces or wingtips of enemy planes (single shot) and makes them stall, ending in a crash.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
H¶f...

LuftWulf190
05-15-2006, 07:46 PM
I'd have to say the cannons are not too strong. Some times I question the M2s on planes like the P-51, but that could be a dispursion problem rather then power. Reason I say that is because I also like flying the Spitfilre HF Mk. IXe, especialy agianst 25lb. Spitfire Mk.IXc (Mk.XIV wannabees), and I don't have an issue with useing either the MGs or and cannons.

Now as far as M$'s manual being wrong, hum, yes and no. As other have said, depends on the aim, depends on the type of round, and depends on where that round goes.

Now as far as Stating that M$'s combat sims are wrong, well thats not really a fair statement. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif But I won't go there as thats a topic for another forum.

Have a good day, and fun flying.