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View Full Version : Notes for Mk XIV / 109 K comparison article of 4th Fightergroup site



Kurfurst__
03-13-2005, 11:26 AM
Notes for Mk XIV / 109 K comparison article


An article was posted on the following address, correcting some errorsin the article presented on the Spitfire Performance testing page. Apart from the correction of errors, it also contains various information that could be of interest. The URL has been also posted on various aviation forums.

http://www.kurfurst.atw.hu/articles/MW_KvsXIV.htm

bolillo_loco
03-14-2005, 01:01 AM
the luftwhinning pom pom cheer leaders will be along shortly

Hetzer_II
03-14-2005, 01:18 AM
No no, some other whiners whinging about Luftwhiners will be quiecker.. i guess...

Ohh i was right..

;-)

Lucius_Esox
03-14-2005, 01:25 AM
Lol,
God I didn't know the Spits were such "ordinary" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif aircraft. I suppose their success is all a big lie of course http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif the victors always write the history books. And indeed it twas such an ugly aircraft
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BBB_Hyperion
03-14-2005, 02:47 AM
At least this article has some proofable points and reference sources as well and some conclusions make sense.

Not like this thread http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=2411066192

LeadSpitter_
03-14-2005, 03:03 AM
that link wont loadup for me but this is probally where they got it from.

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit14v109.html

http://www.realairsimulations.com/msfs-aircraft/spitfire/screenshots/exterior/01.jpg

Hetzer_II
03-14-2005, 03:46 AM
The charts do not load properly for me...
can you check that Kurfurst?

And Leadspitter, do you use IE or Mozilla/Firefox?
I couldnt open the link itself with firefox...

BTW:Nice work...

Greets

BBB_Hyperion
03-14-2005, 04:20 AM
Using Firefox worked ok a while ago but now seems overloaded . Special Pictures dont appear correct maybe cause of timeout.

Kurfurst__
03-14-2005, 05:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hetzer_II:
The charts do not load properly for me...
can you check that Kurfurst?

BTW:Nice work...

Greets <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The curves are used as thumbnails, and I can do little about the webspace provider`s errors, so I added direct URLs which you can use by clicking on the

'2nd Graph : Spitfire Mk XIV vs. Bf 109 K - Level Speed performance' etc.

The server may be overloaded, alone today there were some 1500 hits on the site, and 50 megs of datatransfer...

text. I am glad you liked it.

Blackdog5555
03-14-2005, 09:17 AM
I always found the the speed charts "somewhat academic" (except with the P38, lol)and only very important only if you're drag racing but what makes the Spit so popular online is its wonderful gravity defying vertical maneuvers and fantastic instantanious turning. Very hard to get a shooting solution on those buggas. ect etc. cheers BD

SkyChimp
03-14-2005, 08:54 PM
Nice job, Isegrim. A little personal, but otherwise very rational and well thought out. And nice to look at, too. I'll save that on to my favorites.

BTW, the Germans and Brits got far too complicated with their boost measures and rules for use. They shoulda kept it simple, like the Americans - the P-51B/C/D had 2 engines, 2 different fuel grades, and a couple of boost levels, and that was it. American data is far less complicated to understand.

RedNeckerson
03-14-2005, 09:28 PM
Looks great Kurfurst. Keep up the good work.

Do you plan on expanding the site in the future?

Kurfurst__
03-15-2005, 01:46 AM
Thanks.

The site will be expanded, the final goal is to get the most detailed and reliable site on the Bf 109 K series on the net. First probably only various articles will be written - this current one is merelely a sad but neccesary intermezzo, so much b.s. couldn`t be left laying around - providing some more fair and complete comparisons of performance (in these I plan to get some allied fans involved to get parts about allied planes correct which I don`t as well) in a timeframe basis.

As said the final goal is to get the 109K site up, which will include story of it`s development, production and operational use, variants, various performance and other related document, a detailed section for the powerplants, their fuels and boosts, armament, various equipment kits, bombs, rockets. The material is now largely gathered, and i feel it enough so it would not only be a simple speed-armament-weight, you can bet on that. As information emerges, the site will be updated time to time. I have yet to decide if there will be photograph section. That`s the plan, but actually editing tiny bits of information into a rational whole, found in a dozen different places in each case is no simple task, believe me. Far more than I have anticipated. Will keep ya updated.

karost
03-15-2005, 03:16 AM
Kurfurst__ , that is a good work , Thanks


I like to read a good history inoformation from a difference source point out the same thing ( like bf 109K ) so we can learn what the fact is look like in BF 109s http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Regards,

DarthBane_
03-15-2005, 03:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
Lol,
God I didn't know the Spits were such "ordinary" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif aircraft. I suppose their success is all a big lie of course http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif the victors always write the history books. And indeed it twas such an ugly aircraft
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You said it all. But abowe all it is ugly.

Marc-David
03-15-2005, 05:11 AM
Guys, this is the most beautiful & sophisticated "Master-artpiece of Luftwhiningscience(TM)" I've read for a veeeeeeeery looooooooong time.
So, all You Spitlovers: stand up testify for Your sake! (<-- That's what I'd say here in Germany, hope you all get the meaning of it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

Yours, MD

Hetzer_II
03-15-2005, 06:09 AM
@Marc-David
Please stop trying to flame this thread!
I did not saw a such good envestigated piece of "paper" for a very long time in this forum...
So if you can convute any of the points Kurfurst is pointing to .. I sugguest this is the right thread to post...
So if you can more than flame.. let us know.. show us..

Wenn nicht dann halts einfach den Mund, ist manchmal besser.

Greets

lbhskier37
03-15-2005, 01:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marc-David:
Guys, this is the most beautiful & sophisticated "Master-artpiece of Luftwhiningscience(TM)" I've read for a veeeeeeeery looooooooong time.
So, all You Spitlovers: stand up testify for Your sake! (<-- That's what I'd say here in Germany, hope you all get the meaning of it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

Yours, MD <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yeah Kufurst, only whiners post data and charts. You need to post anecdotes of 80 year old surviving pilots if you want your claims to hold any water.

faustnik
03-15-2005, 01:15 PM
Kurfurst,

The page is not loading properly for me either, Ill try again later.

But, let me guess, your graph shows the Bf109K having a performance edge over the Spit XIV???

Hop2002 should be along shortly with his version showing the Spit having the edge.

I'll read your stuff, just as I read Hop's. Maybe I'll be surprised and see a clear, unbiased study, and then again maybe not...

p1ngu666
03-15-2005, 01:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
Kurfurst,

The page is not loading properly for me either, Ill try again later.

But, let me guess, your graph shows the Bf109K having a performance edge over the Spit XIV???

Hop2002 should be along shortly with his version showing the Spit having the edge.

I'll read your stuff, just as I read Hop's. Maybe I'll be surprised and see a clear, unbiased study, and then again maybe not... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

imo, truth lies somewhere in between. theres tons of stuff saying 109 as a piece of ****, and tons saying it was good. truth is, it probably isnt the bump coffin, nor the rose tinted honey kurfy see's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Hastatus
03-15-2005, 01:25 PM
The graph above shows the 109K at 442 and the Spit XIV at 448 at best alt. Wow. Such a huge difference, I can see a big flame war happening over a/c that fly within 1 percent of each others top speed. Lets dig out all the data we can. Im sure at 20,000 feet in WW2 that 6 mph would have made ALL the difference in a dogfight...

faustnik
03-15-2005, 02:16 PM
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/Dr.jpg

MEGILE
03-15-2005, 02:20 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

p1ngu666
03-15-2005, 02:43 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

lrrp22
03-15-2005, 03:02 PM
Brilliant! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/Dr.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jagdklinger
03-15-2005, 08:03 PM
Love it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

VW-IceFire
03-15-2005, 08:32 PM
Well done faustnik! "Yeah Baby!"

I think the 109K and the XIV will be a good match for each other. Both are very similar...so I imagine it'll be ironic if the XIV gets complained about for a while...seeing as the two are so close.

No doubt the energy retention and nose pointing will be an issue for a while http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WOLFMondo
03-16-2005, 02:07 AM
Funny pic http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

To do a fair comparison don't you really have to do an indepth study of the Spitfire XIV also?

Jagdklinger
03-16-2005, 03:59 AM
Faustnik, that is truly brilliant. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

I have always been sarcastic of <insertyourlackof*****compensatingpichere> sig photos (can't remeber who said that first), but with your permission, I'd like to adopt it as mine for this forum. (With copyright acknowledged, of course... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

...and that's from a 109K driver

faustnik
03-16-2005, 09:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
Faustnik, that is truly brilliant. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

I have always been sarcastic of <insertyourlackof*****compensatingpichere> sig photos (can't remeber who said that first), but with your permission, I'd like to adopt it as mine for this forum. (With copyright acknowledged, of course... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

...and that's from a 109K driver <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's all yours Jagdklinger. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Badsight.
03-16-2005, 10:08 PM
oh you dirrrty thread hijacking bastage you faust http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

cant get the page at all sorry Kurfurst

Kurfurst__
03-16-2005, 11:34 PM
Hmmm, some foreigners can access it, some don`t... do you know some good webspace provider?

btw Nice one faustnik, i really liked it. I wonder I`ll even use it - with your permission of course. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p1ngu666
03-16-2005, 11:38 PM
kurfy, id host, but ive got a bandwidth cap http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

faustnik
03-17-2005, 12:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
btw Nice one faustnik, i really liked it. I wonder I`ll even use it - with your permission of course. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No problem Kurfurst, anybody is free to use my poor attempt at Photoshop. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The only criteria is that if you add characters, I get to be Fatbastard.