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luftluuver
06-26-2007, 05:18 AM
A translation.

1.)Boost 1,8ata with B4 fuel
Reason for the meeting were the problems in "field"¯ and at the serial production facility

"Genshagen"¯ because of the "white flame"¯ effect during the use of the
Higher output. First it is shown by Hr. Dr. Scherenberg how the "white flame"¯
followed by burned pistons, develop. Because of the results of the engine knocking test the lower

quality of the fuel is the main reason for the problems.
DB has allready solved the problem with adjusting the ignition timing by 5?(???) .
This allowes the use of "Sondernotleistung"¯ and the 1.45 and 1.80ata settings.
But because of later ignition , 50PS are lost during the "Sondernotleistung"¯,
Where the 1,45 ata setting doesn't lose power.
DB although mentions the problems with the bad fit of the valvesitrings or
the plug thread , that where reasons for the glow-ignition too. But because
of improovments in the production these failurs are said to be canceled.
All agreed and the decision was done, that all engines should get the new ignition time. The lose

of power is not so critical. But, because of hints from DB (DaimlerBenz), there should be test

flight with 5 planes within all alts, but especially above rated alt, to get knowledge about the

power loose above rated alt.
END SHEET ONE
This will be done at II/JG11. It is asked, if the ignition timing can be set on old value
if better fuel quality is back. Answer is delayed till it is for sure that only better fuel is

used, and if it is shown, that later ignition does have no influence on the planes perfromance.

DB mentions that the later ignition point although is better for the plugs that have a thermal

problem at all.
It is mentioned too, that the performance lose will be decrease with increasing engine run time ,

means with less oil lose. It indicates too, that new engines with less oil usage are better in

performance than the ones with at first high usage and the lower usage of oil. From the troop

should be taken 1 engine with 15-20h for oil consumption and performance tests to be done in

Genshagen. Because the b4 fuel is mostly used in the east, the order for the new ignition

point/time should get out asap by...

2.)1.98 boost with c3 fuel
the first report shows, that the test with the 1.9, and 1.98 boost had negative results.
Then a telegram from Rechlin was shown (they tested 4 engines) that criticized the
clearing of the Sondernotleistung by Gen. Ing. Paul direct from the company to A.Galland bevor

sufficient tests were done. Rechlin although defend themselves, that
they did NOT give the new boost free for the Troop. (looks like some thought they did). DB on the

other hand shows their positive test results for the 1.9 , 1.98 usage.
They say, that the clearance for the 1.98 boost was given with the same TAGL (?)
(think a kind of order) as the 1.8 ata boost was cleared..both on the same day!.

SHEET THREE

It was then decided (after hearing all the reports) than currently only II/JG11 should test the

1.98 boost and that the 1.9ata engine test should be finished when the engines failed. (so no

more test after them). The JG should then only get 1.8 ata engine supplies. Heavy punnishment is

threaten when this order is not followed. The 1.98 clearance decission may only come from

department 4 of general staff.
It is suggested that some recon planes should be equiped with 1.98 boost. Decission was not done.

To disburden the current 1.98 and 1.9 engines it is suggested to give them the new ignition time

too. So, all engines flowen with the sondernotleistung will
Be set to the new ignition point/time.

The JG's in field complain about the plug failurs. Especially in the last time the number of

failurs increased. DB reports about improoved plug modells and better
quality control e.g. with x-ray controlling. Again DB points out that the cooling of the
109 is insufficient and wishes that the LW will solve this problem asap. This was mentioned by

Gen.-Ing Paul and arrangements where done instandly.
DB points out that the performance of the "cell"¯ (fuselage/wings) is extremely bad,
and even worser J. It makes no sense to increase the power output of the engine when on the other

side the plane quality is decreasing dramatically. Is is reported that a coparison of a 109 with

a mustang was arranged for Mr. Sauer, but he failed to come.
The result of the comparison was, spoken of produktion quality only, shocking
for the 109.

SHEET FOUR

At the end of the meeting, from Mr. Dr. Scherenberg points out that DB allready is testing a

boost up to 2.3ata (J). But it can be not juged in any way because of only
a low test base at the moment.

AKA_TAGERT
06-26-2007, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
It makes no sense to increase the power output of the engine when on the other side the plane quality is decreasing dramatically. Interesting!

What is the source of this report?

Daiichidoku
06-26-2007, 11:25 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/Daiichidoku/0568.gif

JG53Frankyboy
06-26-2007, 11:31 AM
the propelm even worsened as the production DB engines were also from bad production quality at the same time..................

happens with slave labour and limited resources.

luftluuver
06-26-2007, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
What is the source of this report?
Afaik it was the RLM.

Be sure one will not see the report on Kapt K's 109 site as it is so negative. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MEGILE
06-26-2007, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by luftluuver:

Afaik it was the RLM.

Be sure one will not see the report on Kapt K's 109 site as it is so negative. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hmm that's surprising, as apparently he is "the resource" on Messershmit 109s.

AKA_TAGERT
06-26-2007, 02:19 PM
If pulp is bad.. and Kapt's 109 sight is orange juice.. it would be the yellow water tang of 109 info sights

Abbuzze
06-26-2007, 02:46 PM
Very nice - any link to the original documents?

MEGILE
06-26-2007, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Abbuzze:
Very nice - any link to the original documents?

Maybe Kurfurst can enlighten us.

luftluuver
06-26-2007, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Abbuzze:
Very nice - any link to the original documents?

Maybe Kurfurst can enlighten us. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry Abbuzze, no can do.

Megile, hs hould be able to, unless his selective memory gets in the way.

JG14_Josf
06-26-2007, 06:50 PM
Heavy punnishment is

threaten when this order is not followed.

I like that one. What is the punishment; send them to the Russian Front?

Vike
06-27-2007, 04:29 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
(Complete biaised BS)...Is is reported that a coparison of a 109 with

a mustang was arranged for Mr. Sauer, but he failed to come.
The result of the comparison was, spoken of produktion quality only, shocking
for the 109.

OMG,so in 1945 most of the SupeR P51s were shot down by Me109s whose fuselages and wings suffered a shocking and dramatic bad quality?!?...
Wow,not very flattering for the USAAF... http://media.ubi.com/us/forum_images/gf-glomp.gif
But very interesting finally! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

-Luftwaffe victories in 1945- (http://www.luftwaffe.cz/1945.html)

And BTW,what was behind the engine hood of the Me109-K the Germans and the Russians themselves tested up to 607Km/h and 611Km/h at sea level respectively?

And what about the other Daimler-Benz engines @ 2000HP (http://www.axiomdigital.com/db605.htm) like the DB605ASCM which also equipped K4s and G10s?

Not to mention the high performing Me109-G10-C3 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/5201055625?r=3221045045#3221045045) that were even also supplied to the Italian ANR in the north of Italy in 1945... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Oh,wait look at my pooooooooor Me109-K falling itself appart without even taking the air... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j32/Vike01/bf109k4.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

@+

MEGILE
06-27-2007, 05:29 AM
Originally posted by Vike:

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


You appear troubled by something.

luftluuver
06-27-2007, 05:30 AM
Tell me Vike, why is a report done by Germans for Germans 'biased BS'?

Blutarski2004
06-27-2007, 05:59 AM
Originally posted by Vike:
OMG,so in 1945 most of the SupeR P51s were shot down by Me109s whose fuselages and wings suffered a shocking and dramatic bad quality?!?...
Wow,not very flattering for the USAAF... http://media.ubi.com/us/forum_images/gf-glomp.gif
But very interesting finally! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

And BTW,what was behind the engine hood of the Me109-K the Germans and the Russians themselves tested up to 607Km/h and 611Km/h at sea level respectively?

And what about the other Daimler-Benz engines @ 2000HP like the DB605ASCM which also equipped K4s and G10s?

Not to mention the high performing Me109-G10-C3[/URL] that were even also supplied to the Italian ANR in the north of Italy in 1945... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Oh,wait look at my pooooooooor Me109-K falling itself appart without even taking the air... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif



..... Don't http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif Viking. What you describe did indeed occur, but did so courtesy of German pilots flying their K's at 1.8 ata max boost and not 1.98ata. What's the difference?

I'm utterly at a loss to understand why you've gotten your panties into such a twist over what appears to be a legitimate translation of a German report that describes engineering difficulties in achieving reliable operation at 1.98ata [although, for the sake of good order, I'd like to see the original document or a citation thereof].

Is the new standard of intellectual integrity to ignore, expunge or deny data contrary to one's wishful thinking? If so, believe me, I have a list about five kilometers long.

DKoor
06-27-2007, 06:05 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
Tell me Vike, why is a report done by Germans for Germans 'biased BS'? That's because of the boring routine here.

Look at the Kurfurst thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/3951045965/p/1) you can find the exact same stuff.
Read the several replies to that thread.

Same sort of replies, only different ac.
Amusement for so called grown ups.

Kurfurst__
06-27-2007, 06:54 AM
It's pretty old news, this paper is freely downloadable from the internet, most of it was already posted on butch's board years ago - if anyone wants a free copy just email me, I'll scan them within a week.

The DB/DC engines were introduced in sometimes December/January, replacing the early DM and it appears despite the testing at Daimler Benz the full ratings were not yet implementable, so they begun a bit of thinkering with the settings, primarly the spark plugs and using delayed ignition as a temporary measure (similiar measures as in Merlin 266s in the automn btw). Operational testing was done by II./JG 11 Fighter Wing's machines in February, appearantly successfully since at it is also known that on 20 March 1945 a letter - OKL, GdJ-Grp.Qu.,Br.B.Nr.1561/45 g.Kdos.(op) - from the General of the Jagdflieger's declared that :

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e133/Kurfurst/198ataMarch1945-1.jpg

It was published in English in Kobel/Mathmann's Bf 109 book, vol 2. These four Jagdgruppen (wings) were stationed on the Western front, if there was such thing at all by 1945. There's a lot of speculation going on about it, what else is known is the immidiately fuel stocks in Bavarian airfields, with about 50% C-3 fuel being present towards the end of April, and similiary fuel stocks for April in Northern Italy which show similiar ratio between the low octane B-4 and the high octane C-3 fuel - this being supplied to the (Axis) Italian Air Force's needs chiefly by the LW. We also have a couple of pictures of K-4s with the 'C-3' fuel triangle, including from JG 27 and JG 53 and some with B-4 fuel, and many on which it is impossible to make out.

Bottomline, it seems that's not the first time someone is hopping mad about 1.98ata - I wonder who that 'other guy' was... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/5301094604

MEGILE
06-27-2007, 07:14 AM
Thanks Kurfurst, but I already got the copy from your website.



Kurfurst:

It's pretty old news, this paper is freely downloadable from the internet, most of it was already posted on butch's board years ago



Kurfurst:

Nothing new to you perhaps, but I am having the feeling you're not happy that others may be able see them.

lal

Brain32
06-27-2007, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
Tell me Vike, why is a report done by Germans for Germans 'biased BS'?
I do not see expression - "biased BS" used anywhere in Vike's post. Hmm it's interesting how you thought of that out of nowhere. Are you a closet ME109 fan? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Vike
06-27-2007, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:

The DB/DC engines were introduced in sometimes December/January, replacing the early DM and it appears despite the testing at Daimler Benz the full ratings were not yet implementable, so they begun a bit of thinkering with the settings, primarly the spark plugs and using delayed ignition as a temporary measure (similiar measures as in Merlin 266s in the automn btw). Operational testing was done by II./JG 11 Fighter Wing's machines in February, appearantly successfully since at it is also known that on 20 March 1945 a letter - OKL, GdJ-Grp.Qu.,Br.B.Nr.1561/45 g.Kdos.(op) - from the General of the Jagdflieger's declared that :
(...)
It was published in English in Kobel/Mathmann's Bf 109 book, vol 2. These four Jagdgruppen (wings) were stationed on the Western front, if there was such thing at all by 1945. There's a lot of speculation going on about it, what else is known is the immidiately fuel stocks in Bavarian airfields, with about 50% C-3 fuel being present towards the end of April, and similiary fuel stocks for April in Northern Italy which show similiar ratio between the low octane B-4 and the high octane C-3 fuel - this being supplied to the (Axis) Italian Air Force's needs chiefly by the LW. We also have a couple of pictures of K-4s with the 'C-3' fuel triangle, including from JG 27 and JG 53 and some with B-4 fuel, and many on which it is impossible to make out.

Thanks for this welcomed clarification Kurfurst. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
I indeed heard about those informations at the time of releasing the K4/C3 in the patch 4.03m http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm also interested by the scan,could you bring it to me please?
I think you know my e-mail? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif


Originally posted by nodevotion: (in the Kurfust's link)
There is NO supporting evidence that this plane ever got off the ground and I personaly question your integrity

Lhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gifL !

@+

MEGILE
06-27-2007, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:

I do not see expression - "biased BS" used anywhere in Vike's post.

Then it appears you have poor eyesight.

Brain32
06-27-2007, 07:58 AM
My bad, it's in the quote part that was edited http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

luftluuver
06-27-2007, 02:51 PM
It was published in English in Kobel/Mathmann's Bf 109 book, vol 2. These four Jagdgruppen (wings) were stationed on the Western front, if there was such thing at all by 1945. There's a lot of speculation going on about it, what else is known is the immidiately fuel stocks in Bavarian airfields, with about 50% C-3 fuel being present towards the end of April,
Only the units from JG53 were based in Bavaria. The units in JG27 were based west of Berlin. How many Fw190As based in the Bavarian area?

Document required for C3 fuel in Bavaria.

Butch2K (Oliver Lefebrve))

There is supporting evidence that it was at least tested, what is not known is to what extend the 109G-10/K-4 units were equipped with the DB605DC engine configured for max boost.

AKA_TAGERT
06-27-2007, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
Tell me Vike, why is a report done by Germans for Germans 'biased BS'? Good point!

Any comment on the Vike?

AKA_TAGERT
06-27-2007, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
if anyone wants a free copy just email me, I'll scan them within a week. So.. You have an orginal copy.. Yet it is no where to be found on your 109 info web sight..

Interesting..

If Mike Williams tried that he would be called all kinds of names!

Yet you get a pass.

Interesting..

Sergio_101
06-27-2007, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
if anyone wants a free copy just email me, I'll scan them within a week. So.. You have an orginal copy.. Yet it is no where to be found on your 109 info web sight..

Interesting..

If Mike Williams tried that he would be called all kinds of names!

Yet you get a pass.

Interesting.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Got to wonder if the Soviets tested the German 109's
with 110-130 grade fuel, or even 115-145.
Got to think that the super high PN fuels could
help the performance at high boost ;-)

In my racing and engine building experiance
a white flame or white smoke means torched pistons.

I have seen more than one engine with burnt/torched pistons.

Under boost or high output if there is white smoke
it is already too late.

To little room here to discuss all the issues
regarding the timing change and hot spot
related detonation. (glowing plugs, etc).

A combination of heat and pressure will
cause a piston to defoliate (shed material)
especially if there is a lean out.
Where the DB engines are direct fuel injected I got
to wonder if a lean out may have been a problem.
"Wet manifold" engines have a greater cooling
effect on the pistons during valve overplap
than direct injected "dry manifold" engines.
all Merlins and Allisons were wet manifold.

Did DB ever try injecting fuel into the intake manifold?
Perhaps Barbi can answer that.

Sergio

MEGILE
06-27-2007, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
So.. You have an orginal copy.. Yet it is no where to be found on your 109 info web sight..

Interesting..

If Mike Williams tried that he would be called all kinds of names!

Yet you get a pass.

Interesting..

Not its not the same because, errmmm... because ahh ermmm.... just because!

Kurfurst__
06-28-2007, 03:13 AM
DB did not (only Water-methanol), BMW did though, so KH/Crumpp should be the person to ask.

AKA_TAGERT
06-28-2007, 07:06 AM
Still no link?

Interesting

Brain32
06-28-2007, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
So.. You have an orginal copy.. Yet it is no where to be found on your 109 info web sight..

Interesting..

If Mike Williams tried that he would be called all kinds of names!

Yet you get a pass.

Interesting..

Not its not the same because, errmmm... because ahh ermmm.... just because! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There are documents missing on spitperf site too, I don't mind that, try again http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

MEGILE
06-28-2007, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
I don't mind that

Your recent complaints about SP.com disagree.

In that, you are not ok with "it"(whatever "it" is about SP.com)... yet you appear not to mind Kurfurst's own data.

Blue Crew rule: Complain about things you do.

Brain32
06-28-2007, 10:25 AM
Your recent complaints about SP.com disagree.
Incorrect.

In that, you are not ok with "it"(whatever "it" is about SP.com)...
I clearly stated what "it" is several times.

... yet you appear not to mind Kurfurst's own data.
Kurfurst does not have his "own" data on his site, official documents only.

Now imagine him having a "home made" chat with plotted performance of Rechlin tested La5FN and brand new BF109G6 possibly even with some non-standard modifications that were not used on operational planes all nicely wrapped out and presented as performance relation bettween those two planes. Now you know what I do mind about that, overall excellent resource site http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Blue Crew rule: Complain about things you do.
Ahh now I see you were drafted to the Red Bandwagon, congrats http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Daiichidoku
06-28-2007, 10:33 AM
i desire accuracy in all types

i am green

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/Daiichidoku/hulk1a.jpg

Kettenhunde
06-28-2007, 10:33 AM
Did DB ever try injecting fuel into the intake manifold?


Yes, the BMW801 had a wet manifold.

All the best,

Crumpp

AKA_TAGERT
06-28-2007, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
I don't mind that

Your recent complaints about SP.com disagree.

In that, you are not ok with "it"(whatever "it" is about SP.com)... yet you appear not to mind Kurfurst's own data.

Blue Crew rule: Complain about things you do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed 100%

AKA_TAGERT
06-28-2007, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
Kurfurst does not have his "own" data on his site, official documents only.
Not true.. not by a long shot!

Take a look at the Finn report.. My Kurfurst than Finn

MEGILE
06-28-2007, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:

Incorrect.

I clearly stated what "it" is several times.



These two statements are contradictory.

You say you don't have a problem with SP.com... then you say, you have defined your problem with SP.com several times. Make up your mind Brian.


Kurfurst does not have his "own" data on his site, official documents only.

Interpretations thereof, not to mention colourful lines on graphs he likes to draw in MSPAINT and post on forums.
Kurfurst has his interpretations of data aswell as Mike Williams does of his.. to say other wise for one is purely negligent.


Ahh now I see you were drafted to the Red Bandwagon, congrats

I don't consider this to be the case... but I realize people like yourself, appear inclined to choose a side, and project this onto other people.

Brain32
06-28-2007, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:

Incorrect.

I clearly stated what "it" is several times.



These two statements are contradictory. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
When you put words out of context you can make them mean whatever you want http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


Originally posted by Megile: You say you don't have a problem with SP.com... then you say, you have defined your problem with SP.com several times. Make up your mind Brian.

I said I have problems with certain elements of the site, not the whole thing, but I guess you are just applying the "you are either with us or against us" formula on me.


Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Kurfurst does not have his "own" data on his site, official documents only.

Interpretations thereof, not to mention colourful lines on graphs he likes to draw in MSPAINT and post on forums.
Kurfurst has his interpretations of data aswell as Mike Williams does of his.. to say other wise for one is purely negligent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not on his site, that's the whole point, site such as SP or Kurfursts are often used for refrences, forum posts are not.


Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ahh now I see you were drafted to the Red Bandwagon, congrats

I don't consider this to be the case... but I realize people like yourself, appear inclined to choose a side, and project this onto other people. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Funny you say this as you applied that on me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

luftluuver
06-28-2007, 04:53 PM
by a German

I don't know for shure about the alloys the Allies used for their aircraft engines - but the Germans made excessive use of ELECTRON for their engine's light-alloy-castings - that is: an alloy with up to 60 percent Magnesium to 40 percent Aluminium - throughout the entire engine.

By doing so, you can reduce the wheight of a casting down to 2/3rds of that of a sheer aluminium-alloy. Bad point is, that Electron-alloys must be coated to become oil- and water-tight, as Electron-castings tend to be porous.

Secondly, Electron-castings corrode like Hell: Electron is hysterically sensitive to water, due to it's high Magnesium-contence. The applied coating had to fight that corrosion, too. But it could do so only to a certain extent. as even the finest cracks, fissures and, punctures in the laquer-coating would allow enough humidity, if not sheer coolant liquid sip into the Electron and initiate intermolecular corrosion hat, it would render that specific casting scrap before long.

If you should ever have asked yourself, why there are so few airworthy genuine german engines from WWII left in the World - there you have the answer for this question: They are all corroded down to unairworthiness (if such a word should exist at all in English) - if not (white) dust...

AKA_TAGERT
06-28-2007, 06:30 PM
Is it just me..

Or did anyone else notice..

That Brain32 had no comment on Kurfurt's Finn report that contains more Kurfurst than Finn..

Thus totally debunking his earlier statement that Kurfurst does not have his "own" data on his site, official documents only.

Ratsack
06-28-2007, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
Kurfurst does not have his "own" data on his site, official documents only.
Not true.. not by a long shot!

Take a look at the Finn report.. My Kurfurst than Finn </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Got a link? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

cheers,
Ratsack

luftluuver
06-28-2007, 06:49 PM
here it is, http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Performance_tests/1.../109G2_MT215_en.html (http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Performance_tests/109G_MT215/109G2_MT215_en.html)

luftluuver
06-28-2007, 06:57 PM
German calculations typically assume a standard radiator flap position, referred to as Steigflugstellung (or climbing position), at which the radiator`s exit flaps (Kühlerklappen) are open 220 mm wide, or apprx. half-open,...

Wide open is 350mm.

220/350 = 63%

63% is closer to 2/3 (66.7%) open than 1/2 (50%) open. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

An edit is required.

Sergio_101
06-28-2007, 06:59 PM
As far as I know, Damiler Benz (DB) never used
a wet manifold in a G or K series Bf-109.

The only Allied piston engine with a dry manifold
that saw combat was late CW R-3350 radials for the B-29.
Those were direct fuel injected in the same manner as
DB engines.
While they made LESS power the reason for it was to eliminate
intake fires. It worked and was well worth the effort.

As to the magnesium corrosion problem.
Allied engines are far from immune to it.
I have seen a R-3350 accessory drive that looked
like it was hit by cannon fire
after being left on a cement floor. They are magnesium.

Rolls Royce used Magnesium in many places
such as rocker covers, accessory drives etc.

Everyone used magnesium where possible to save weight.

A odd exception was Curtiss Wright.
While they used magnesuim in many places the
crank cases and cylinders on most of their
war time radials were of forged steel.
Post war Wright used swaged aluminum fins on the
cylinder barrels.

Nearly all cast aluminum contains a % of magnesuim.
But 60% magnesium in a crank case? That's NUTS!

Pistons will have very low Mag content and a high silica
content. Around 15% silica in common, back then I am not sure
but I suspect the percentage is similar.
Not even a crazy German would use high magnesium content
in a piston casting!

Sergio

Brain32
06-28-2007, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
here it is, http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Performance_tests/1.../109G2_MT215_en.html (http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Performance_tests/109G_MT215/109G2_MT215_en.html)
I see no "own" data here, translator to English is aknowledged and all comments are linked to original documents, but you are free to make things up, I know the 109G2 is a painfull subject here not to even meantion Kurfurst...


Originally posted by luftluuver: bla,bla, radiators

OMG http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif you find something, you guys are right such a monstrosity of data manipulation is unsurpassed in history of mankind. You were right afterall, give me a break, is that all you can grab for?

BTW do you know what approx. stands for?

Ratsack
06-28-2007, 07:25 PM
Heinous

luftluuver
06-28-2007, 07:54 PM
Well Brain, since Kapt K is such a stickler for exactness, 2/3 is a much more apt description than 1/2 is, be sure.

AKA_TAGERT
06-28-2007, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
I see no "own" data here, translator to English is aknowledged and all comments are linked to original documents, but you are free to make things up, I know the 109G2 is a painfull subject here not to even meantion Kurfurst... pwnd


Originally posted by Brain32:
OMG http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif you find something, you guys are right such a monstrosity of data manipulation is unsurpassed in history of mankind.
True.


Originally posted by Brain32:
You were right afterall,
We know..


Originally posted by Brain32:
give me a break, is that all you can grab for?
No.. we got this from just a few weeks ago

http://www.geocities.com/grantsenn/NACA_TESTING/ANALYSIS/TEST_TYPE/DRAG/408/Bf-109K-4/GENERAL/ROC_Kurfurst_Blue_Addition.JPG

This is 'HIS' take on what the Finn test is saying.. Which it said nothing about adding 5m/s+.. but that did not stop him from adding 5m/s+


Originally posted by Brain32:
BTW do you know what approx. stands for?
As in Kurfurst does approximate the same thing Mikes does..

With the only difference being you condemn Mike for it and make excuses for Kurfurst when he does the same.

Yet I have never seen a graph where Mike was saying one thing and his graph was saying another.

Sergio_101
06-29-2007, 03:11 AM
The "approximations" of Barbi/Isegrim/Kurfie/Turdfist
are the stuff of legend.

He skillfully avoids outright lies seemingly
preferring the Gobbels style of embellishing
the truth.
A careful mix of facts and "embellishment"
makes for top rate propaganda.

As we have seen proven in many previous posts
there were no overwhelming numbers of P-51s
untill AFTER new years day 1945.
Think, there were no P-51Bs in existance
in ETO till late 1943.
And few P-51 combat missions untill AFTER new years day 1944.

Germany more or less held parity in fighters in the west up till "Bodenplatte".

Then how did the luftwaffe get so badly beaten
by inferior P-51s?
Inferior numbers and (by Barbie's "data") inferior
performing P-51s.

You continue to paint yourself into a corner Kurfurst.

By the way the fastest prop fighter to see combat
and fire a shot in anger was the P-47M.
Not just during WWII, but ever.

Sergio

AKA_TAGERT
06-29-2007, 01:23 PM
Is it just me..

Or did anyone else notice how quite Rat & Brian got after pointing out Kurfurst is no better than Mike..

And in this case even worse

In that Kurfurst said he was adding 3, but added 5, where as when Mike says he is adding 3 he adds 3.

JG4_Helofly
06-29-2007, 01:44 PM
Is it a challenge to fight on one of the 2 fronts in this forum? Threats in which you find spit vs 109 or red vs blue stuff are extremly popular. 30+ pages of battle red vs blue. Some other interesting threats without insults and such a post battle go up to 5 pages before going down to page 2.
So it must be like a game for you guys. You can't do this in RL with people in front of you so you must do it in here were you can stay unknown.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

AKA_TAGERT
06-29-2007, 01:58 PM
Actually at 6'4" 235lb I do it in RL too and get away with it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kurfurst__
06-29-2007, 04:02 PM
Good thing about Clowns is that they make a fool of themselves without normal people having to move their fingers at all. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

luftluuver
06-29-2007, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
Good thing about Clowns is that they make a fool of themselves without normal people having to move their fingers at all. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Is that another self-description? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

carguy_
06-29-2007, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Actually at 6'4" 235lb I do it in RL too and get away with it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Life can be tough sometimes.I hope you won`t face a situation you can`t stand up to.You can be all you want,statements like that can only giv you trouble in real life,I hope you know that.

AKA_TAGERT
06-29-2007, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Actually at 6'4" 235lb I do it in RL too and get away with it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Life can be tough sometimes.I hope you won`t face a situation you can`t stand up to.You can be all you want,statements like that can only giv you trouble in real life,I hope you know that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>So what part of 6'4" 235lb do you not understand? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

AKA_TAGERT
06-29-2007, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
Good thing about Clowns is that they make a fool of themselves without normal people having to move their fingers at all. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

On that note.. which finger(s) did you use to draw this?

http://www.geocities.com/grantsenn/NACA_TESTING/ANALYSIS/TEST_TYPE/DRAG/408/Bf-109K-4/GENERAL/ROC_Kurfurst_Blue_Addition.JPG

ploughman
06-29-2007, 05:06 PM
Utterly relentless. It's like Churchill and Chuck Norris rolled into one.

Sergio_101
06-29-2007, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
Utterly relentless. It's like Churchill and Chuck Norris rolled into one.

More like Gobbels VS Patton..... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sergio

MEGILE
06-29-2007, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
Good thing about Clowns is that they make a fool of themselves without normal people having to move their fingers at all. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Is that your way of admitting you infact do, everything you complain about on Mike William's site?

Blutarski2004
06-30-2007, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
Utterly relentless. It's like Churchill and Chuck Norris rolled into one.


..... I would have given a lot to see Winston Churchill do a roundhouse kick.

Beautiful simile, by the way.

Blutarski2004
06-30-2007, 06:23 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Actually at 6'4" 235lb I do it in RL too and get away with it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Life can be tough sometimes.I hope you won`t face a situation you can`t stand up to.You can be all you want,statements like that can only giv you trouble in real life,I hope you know that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>So what part of 6'4" 235lb do you not understand? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... I think what carguy was trying to say is that, as sizeable as you are, you still have to watch out for the guy who's 6'8" and 335 lbs. They're out there.

AKA_TAGERT
06-30-2007, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Actually at 6'4" 235lb I do it in RL too and get away with it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Life can be tough sometimes.I hope you won`t face a situation you can`t stand up to.You can be all you want,statements like that can only giv you trouble in real life,I hope you know that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>So what part of 6'4" 235lb do you not understand? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... I think what carguy was trying to say is that, as sizeable as you are, you still have to watch out for the guy who's 6'8" and 335 lbs. They're out there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I think car guy was just a little but hurt and didn't see the big ol smily at the end! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Daisan1981
06-30-2007, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
Bottomline, it seems that's not the first time someone is hopping mad about 1.98ata - I wonder who that 'other guy' was... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/5301094604

http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=69398&d=1171866436