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JtD
08-19-2005, 01:21 PM
Please get rid of the stupid effect that rolls planes at 180?/s when being hit by 20mm+ guns. That is in no way related to physical effects know to man, or aliens for that matter. It's plain stupid.

Please get also rid of the effect that roles them back in some way or another, as this is pure fantasy.

Both effects also suck big time.

ST__Spyke
08-19-2005, 03:23 PM
huh?

Kuna15
08-19-2005, 04:36 PM
Totally agreed.
It is really strange to see plane damaged that can make a roll faster than healthy FW-190 when hit with cannon round. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
And not to mention that it rolls back at equal speed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

VW-IceFire
08-19-2005, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by ST__Spyke:
huh?
You know the effect where you get hit in the wing or somewhere and the plane rolls 180 degrees onto its back for no reason except for a small 20mm explosive shell (its damaging, but lets face it, its small and isn't going to flip a 6 ton fighter on its back).

Grey_Mouser67
08-19-2005, 06:12 PM
I agree...sometimes pilots didn't even know they were getting hit, let alone how many rounds they were getting hit by.

The most notable clue to being hit was sound. Occassionally they would feel it...but if they did, it might be because they just got hit! I remember one story of a Jug pilot who had a 20mm shell lodge in his back armor...it hit with force that it knocked the wind out of him, and bruised ribs IIRC.

Down with the effect...it is more arcade than those muzzle flashes were!

LBR_Rommel
08-19-2005, 07:52 PM
S!

Agree boys.


<O|

TAGERT.
08-19-2005, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
Please get rid of the stupid effect that rolls planes at 180?/s when being hit by 20mm+ guns. That is in no way related to physical effects know to man, or aliens for that matter. It's plain stupid.

Please get also rid of the effect that roles them back in some way or another, as this is pure fantasy.

Both effects also suck big time. Based On?

FritzGryphon
08-19-2005, 08:48 PM
Gun camera footage, for one. You can clearly see wing hits (or any other) do not violently affect roll.

I've never seen this happen ingame before, but I can't imagine what might cause something like it. Any kind of pressure increase caused by a bursting shell would last a tiny fraction of a second. A strike to an aileron, same thing, would only affect for a short period, not enough to invert the plane (unless it got pushed, then somehow jammed in place at high deflection).

If it were caused by twisted wreckage, the effect were be permanent, not temporary.

Loss of lift due to damage is a different effect, and already modeled.

WWMaxGunz
08-19-2005, 08:59 PM
It may be possible that the striking energy of the shell is used directly as momentum
transferred. It may be that the explosive energy is added and used the same way.

Consider a non-explosive 'shell' of 1 kg striking at 500 m/s.
The momentum is 1 x 500 = 500 when reduced to numbers only.
The kinetic energy is 1 x 500 x 500 = 250000 as numbers only.
The two are different in meaning but numbers without labels lose meaning.

So IF the strike of the shell is measured in kinetic units and that value is used to
determine the momentum transferred to the plane, you get enormous power spinning the
plane, in this case 500x what it should be.

Is this possibly what happens? Only the programmers can say. Only them.

FritzGryphon
08-19-2005, 09:04 PM
KE transfer is already modeled, different effect.

Turn on invulnerability and fly into a bunch of flak. Your plane gets bounced and wiggled by the hits. If you get nailed by a tank gun or something, it's very severe.

But even the explosive would be a weak force, and only for a small time period.

WWMaxGunz
08-19-2005, 09:30 PM
Just saying they might be doing the math with mixed units, which would account for
such effects easily.

JtD
08-20-2005, 03:03 AM
Thanks for support, fellows.



Originally posted by TAGERT.:
Based On?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

NonWonderDog
08-20-2005, 04:51 AM
Last time this came up everyone posted accounts of spitfires being flipped onto their backs undamaged by cannon fire. Was that all just fantasy?

I can't really figure it out, though. I guess an explosion would cause turbulence and a slight loss of lift for one wing...for a tenth of a second or less. I'm not really sure we should see what we do in the sim.

BBB_Hyperion
08-20-2005, 11:09 AM
Seems this problem appears even on Bombers . It has been posted here some time ago. Did someone send in a report ? It is kind of funny to see bombers flip 180 degrees in splits of seconds.

73GIAP_Milan
08-20-2005, 06:31 PM
I tend to play the game not so often anymore due to these odd effects. They seem totally unrealistic and are just really annoying as i get shot up way more then i like and thus it takes alot of fun out of the game for me.
All i can hope for is the next patch fixing this.

3.JG51_BigBear
08-21-2005, 12:28 AM
I'm sure there had to have been some kind "bounce" when a plane, especially a fighter, was hit by an explosive cannon shell but what we have in game seems excessive. Also looking at German gun camera footage, I've never once seen a plane flip upside down almost instantaneously like they do in game.

FritzGryphon
08-21-2005, 01:32 AM
Does anyone have a track of this?

I've never seen this online, nor can I replicate it offline by getting shot.

volkware.xyz
08-21-2005, 02:33 AM
I do not agree that this is a problem.

To say that at times a larger shell will not transfer its kinetic energy to a target in such a way as to buffet it about is nonsense. Assuming this is what I have experienced myself, it does not happen all the time.

If somebody punches you, it lasts only a fraction of a second - the duration of contact doesn`t matter, the energy transferred does. If your plane doesn`t break up from the impact, that energy still has to go somewhere/have some effect.

Perhaps these shells sometimes strike the rigid superstructure of an aircraft, and instead of piercing it or snapping it they merely push against it. Sounds reasonable to me.

Sturm_Williger
08-22-2005, 03:52 AM
Hmmm, never seen this effect, on or offline.

Any tracks ?

Abbuzze
08-22-2005, 04:31 AM
Just a few ideas, I don´t know if this behavior is realistic or not, but I think it is not impossible.

First can a 4 tonne plane flip around 180 degree in a turn? Definatly YES!
190´s had this characteristic, they had a real sharp stall behavior, I also read that FW pilots used this move to evade, cause other planes can´t reproduce such a movement at will. This is also modelled in FB, it´s the usually highspeed/accellerated stallbehavior of the FW (at least in the 3.xx patches)
When does a plane behave in this kind? In a hard turn allways the lower wing, at all planes loosing the lift befor the upper one, so this flip over is a usual behavior for planes, the strenght of this behavior is different of course.

Ok, it´s not usual for all planes, planes with asymetrical slats like the 109 behave a bit different, when the lower wing loose his lift and starting to stall the slat open. The 109 didn´t flip over, but "fall" out of the turn without turning around.

Back to the typical behavior of planes without slats, if this flip over is related to stalls we should investigate if the hit that causes the flip over is at the lower wing (I would bet it is), so if a 20mm Mineshell hits, the pressure of the gasexplosion not only peel of some metallpanels from the skin, but also destroys the airflow over the wing for a short time... maybe long enough to let the wing stall till the airflow over the wing is reestablished resulting a flip over like it´s known fromt he FW190.

So to say such a behavior is not possibel - I would say it is at least imagineable!

plumps_
08-22-2005, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Seems this problem appears even on Bombers . It has been posted here some time ago. Did someone send in a report ? It is kind of funny to see bombers flip 180 degrees in splits of seconds. Sometimes up to three bombers out of a formation of four fly upside down, even when not damaged at all. I guess that the AI just can't handle the new torque model yet.

This is a screenshot from the QMB in 4.01 and NOT a TB-3 online aerobatics team...

http://1rl.de/for/ubi/upsidedown.jpg

73GIAP_Milan
08-22-2005, 06:45 AM
Guys,

I have the feeling that a few things in this topic are being mixed up with eachother or are related.

My guess is that the original poster tried to make clear that he got annoyed by the fact that when a plane is hit by a cannonshell (20MM or more) tries to flip upside down. This is indeed a very annoying effect atm.

And now i see ppl posting about the upside down bombers in this very same thread. I think that is either a mistake, or it is related to the 20MM-Hit-Flip problem in terms of Flightmodelling and how the current version IL2 game engine handles the damage in combination with the current flightmodels.

In short; both are very odd effects but are they related?
And further on; will it be fixed?

Bearcat99
08-22-2005, 08:13 AM
I have never seem this effect. I have had my plane roll @45 degrees max.. before I caught it with my stick and compensated.. but if you are taking a hit and doing a 180 then somethiung is either wrong with your reflexes or your stick.

jurinko
08-22-2005, 08:27 AM
I would swear, after 4.01 this effect is not present any more, at least in my PC. It was not realistic, but funny to see. Sometimes the bogey kept rolling till hitting the ground http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Grey_Mouser67
08-22-2005, 07:03 PM
I have seen a 109 fly upside down...kind of hard to shoot it down too! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

There are a few really odd things...Take a P-40 against ace Ki-43's and you'll see manuevers that would make a F-16 jealous.

I'm thinking that some of this is the roll thing...you shoot a Ki...it spins uncontrollably, loses altitude, and recovers...chase it and it spins like a top...then recovers, does it again....

I can't help but think there is something in the AI code making the plane spin but the Ace AI is real good at recovering...so it just spins, recovers, spins, recovers....looks UFO like...I put it back on "Average" just to avoid it cause it is an immersion killer.

I had to try the spin out...i don't fly a Ki at all...and it have a very pedestrian rate of roll....this thing was crazy! You shot it and it got crazier!

Weird stuff in 4.01... I've even had Fw's scissoring and pulling away from me as they accelerate????

Scen
08-23-2005, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by TAGERT.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
Please get rid of the stupid effect that rolls planes at 180?/s when being hit by 20mm+ guns. That is in no way related to physical effects know to man, or aliens for that matter. It's plain stupid.

Please get also rid of the effect that roles them back in some way or another, as this is pure fantasy.

Both effects also suck big time. Based On? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Physics...

Tell me how you can be rolled 180 by a hit to the wing?

Abbuzze
08-23-2005, 04:56 AM
Originally posted by Scen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TAGERT.:
Based On?

Physics...

Tell me how you can be rolled 180 by a hit to the wing? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You didn´t read my post?

JG54_Arnie
08-23-2005, 11:11 AM
Does it happen that often to some of you that it is this annoying? From what I have seen it only still happens when you hit a target really hard, like one or two MG shells from the 151/20's and then it happens 1 out of a hundred times maybe? I havent seen it happen online for a long time.
Interesting enough, when playing with beta 05 or 06 for 4.00 it happened continuously when you'd hit a target with the overpowerfull MG shells. So that tells me that in order for it to happen you need a force big enough to cause it.
And somehow a situation that allows it to happen as I rarely see it anymore now.
In this context it seems pretty cool to me, why cant a plane temporarily spin out of control?
Although if it happens to big bombers the same way it happens to fighters it could be a little bit strange. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

F19_Ob
08-24-2005, 02:01 AM
Originally posted by JG54_Arnie:
Does it happen that often to some of you that it is this annoying? From what I have seen it only still happens when you hit a target really hard, like one or two MG shells from the 151/20's and then it happens 1 out of a hundred times maybe? I havent seen it happen online for a long time.
Interesting enough, when playing with beta 05 or 06 for 4.00 it happened continuously when you'd hit a target with the overpowerfull MG shells. So that tells me that in order for it to happen you need a force big enough to cause it.
And somehow a situation that allows it to happen as I rarely see it anymore now.
In this context it seems pretty cool to me, why cant a plane temporarily spin out of control?
Although if it happens to big bombers the same way it happens to fighters it could be a little bit strange. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



I have been flipped onto my back when taking hits from 30mm cannon, flying the P-38 and others aswell.
It doesn't happen very often though and I have also seen 109's flip from hits from my p38's 20mm cannon.
I'm not sure but seems to happen more when one is close to stalling and take hits, in scissoring for example.

I have no idea if it is accurate or not.

Oh.. and it did happen to me when flying A-20 against a late 109 in QMB.
I didn't save the track but I flipped from the 30mm hit (one explosion)

Skyraider3D
08-24-2005, 02:06 AM
The new flight model seems to be based on some kind of dynamic spring system. I had I-153 bounced forth and back around an invisible attachment point (like a yoyo) after being hit by a shell. Very very odd...

I won't even start about the stall behaviour... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Gimme back the old FM any time!

LEXX_Luthor
08-24-2005, 02:21 AM
Spin Shooting: I think we agreed by default early this year (pre-4.01) that this was an Online effect. The inability of the Online dogfighter gamers to experiment Offline to see if the effect happens there too convinced me this is an Online only effect. Its kinda sad, because this sloppiness won't help identify any problems, if any.

Ominae-
08-24-2005, 12:41 PM
I've seen the AI flip this way, when I hit them sometimes, mostly its about a 45 degree spin. The first time this happned to me, was the other day, and I actually span 180. It was so violent I thought my wing got shot off, so I ejected only to see my plane was at allmost perfect condition http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Scen
08-24-2005, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by Abbuzze:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TAGERT.:
Based On?

Physics...

Tell me how you can be rolled 180 by a hit to the wing? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You didn´t read my post? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes... Fairly reasonable thinking however I still believe it's less likely to happen. Even if you could disturb the airflow for a brief second it wouldn't cause my aircraft to flip over on it's back.... Maybe a momentary wing drop and slight at best.

The only way I can see a plane being flipped over is through the loss of a control surface

LEXX_Luthor
08-24-2005, 06:40 PM
Thanks Ominae- , I have not noticed it but then I don't fly much any more.

I've seen the AI flip this way, when I hit them sometimes, mostly its about a 45 degree spin. The first time this happned to me, was the other day, and I actually span 180. It was so violent I thought my wing got shot off, so I ejected only to see my plane was at allmost perfect condition

p1ngu666
08-24-2005, 07:16 PM
i havent noticed it either, mind u i dont fly much.

only guncam footage ive seen where planes spin is where the wing gets blown off http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Gibbage1
08-24-2005, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I have never seem this effect. I have had my plane roll @45 degrees max.. before I caught it with my stick and compensated.. but if you are taking a hit and doing a 180 then somethiung is either wrong with your reflexes or your stick.

I have had this happene many many times. In large aircraft too! Warclouds I often fly a B-25 in low to try and get in below the watchfull eye of the enemy. Many many times I have been INSTANTLY flipped on my back by 20MM (I KNOW what a Mk-108 sounds like http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) and there is no way to roll it back over before I hit the water or ground. If it was only 45 degrees, then I would not have a problem hay?

Its simply not realistic. Out of all the pilot stories, all the guncam footage and everything we have ever studied about aircraft and WWII, I have NEVER EVER heard anyone seeing or having there aircraft FLIPPED from a hit of ANYTHING. Even B-17's hit in the wing by 88's have not flipped.

I would really like to see Oleg's referance for this BS.

Skyraider3D
08-25-2005, 01:50 AM
On the topic of collision dynamics, I'd like to see some more accurate aircraft-to-aircraft interaction as well. Allowing stuff like sawing off people's rudder with your propeller, rolling over another aircraft with your wingtip (a la V1), and sawing off bits of enemy wings with your own wings. The Fw 190 A-9 for example had specially armoured wing leading edges to give their pilots a better chance of survival if they decided to ram after running out of ammo.
In the game... almost any contact and you simply blow up. This is a bit odd, especially if the speed difference is only a few mph.
If this collision behaviour is made more accurate, it can allow for some violent moments http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif