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joeap
10-23-2006, 02:54 PM
Thanks to Ploughman.

Best of Breed (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/2072/breed.html)

Look at this:


Fw 190A
General Characteristics:
A superb airplane, every inch a fighter. It could do a half roll at cruising speed in one second. Taking this in conjunction with the airplane's high top speed and rate of climb one expected its pilots to exploit its high speed qualities to the fullest without staying in there to "mix it up" in a low speed, flaps down full throttle, gut-wrenching dog fight.
They did. The 190 pilots had a good airplane and some good advice. Nearly all of my encounters with the 190 were at high speeds. On at least two occasions when I met them, my Mustang started porposing, which means I was into compressibility, probably around 550 mph. I don't know what my air speed indicator was reading, I wasn't watching it.

Hmmm our winers like Peeper and Hisha*ace say to that? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Low_Flyer_MkVb
10-23-2006, 02:59 PM
Balanced, I thought.

"But another household work, the highly propagandized Me 109G, was obsolete when it was built and was aerodynamically the most inefficient fighter of its time. It was a hopeless collection of lumps, bumps, stiff controls, and placed its pilot in a cramped, squarish cockpit with poor visibility."<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/Low_Flyer/kongsig.jpg

F6_Ace
10-23-2006, 03:13 PM
This Carson bloke. Is he related to Bill Carson out of The Good, the Bad and the Ugly?

Low_Flyer_MkVb
10-23-2006, 03:15 PM
Or Frank "It's the way I tell 'em!" Carson?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/Low_Flyer/kongsig.jpg

ploughman
10-23-2006, 03:22 PM
http://www.comedycv.co.uk/frankcarson/2002-november-frank-carson.jpg

I stole bandwidth to post that here, and I'm not sorry.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

_______________________________________
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Dum spiro, spero.

F6_Ace
10-23-2006, 03:24 PM
Wouldn't he have mentioned:

http://dotdotdotcomma.com/motorsport/f1/lookalikes/images/spit.jpg

, just for old time's sake if he Frankie Carson's pal?

Low_Flyer_MkVb
10-23-2006, 03:30 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif Where are they now? I wonder.

My favouite Frank Carson joke:
"My brother-in-law's gotta be the unluckiest feller in Belfast - spent five hundred quid on a bullet-proof vest and got shot up the arse..."<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/Low_Flyer/kongsig.jpg

MEGILE
10-23-2006, 03:30 PM
and what was the FW-190 doing at 550mph?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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F6_Ace
10-23-2006, 03:38 PM
"Hmmm our winers like Peeper and Hisha*ace say to that?"

I suspect they'd construct some kind of argument that Carson was mistaken in describing this but was correct about everything else.

I think if my plane started to go out of control at high speed, in real life, I'd be more interested in unfilling my pants at the end of the flight than worrying too much about what the enemy was up to.

HayateAce
10-23-2006, 03:44 PM
You lamers are on your own. I guess in the absence of wimmen, this is all you folks can do. F6 ace, I see where you get your good looks.

http://www.worth1000.com/entries/181000/181219RwYV_w.jpg <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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F6_Ace
10-23-2006, 03:45 PM
HayateAce is getting a bit grouchy - sounds like his doll-friend may have developed a puncture.

May I venture a suggestion? Try purchasing some of this from your 24/7 motor factors

http://www.speeding.co.uk/acatalog/fixaflat.jpg

faustnik
10-23-2006, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
HayateAce is getting a bit grouchy - sounds like his doll-friend may have developed a puncture.

HA doesn't need a doll. He has his gimp, AKA BillyTheKid.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Rjel
10-23-2006, 05:59 PM
I've read Carson's book, PURSUE and DESTROY, that was taken from that series of articles first published in Airpower/Wings magazine in the late '70s. The man was a good write, knew his subject far better than most of us here. I really wish he'd written more. Sadly, he's gone now.

AKA_TAGERT
10-23-2006, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Rjel:
I've read Carson's book, PURSUE and DESTROY, that was taken from that series of articles first published in Airpower/Wings magazine in the late '70s. The man was a good write, knew his subject far better than most of us here. I really wish he'd written more. Sadly, he's gone now. Agreed 100%

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************************************************** **
IF WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER.. THAN WHAT THE H IS YOUR QUESTION?
************************************************** **

joeap
10-24-2006, 02:28 AM
Agree 200% ~S to Colonel Carson.

Bearcat99
10-24-2006, 05:13 AM
LOL.. I remember a few years ago when FB first came out I posted his assessment of the Mustang in here and it caused a near meltdown.........<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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leitmotiv
10-24-2006, 05:16 AM
Great article, joeap. Breath of fresh air on a topic that is laboriously beaten to death by enthusiasts without a clue. Shows how ergonomics can affect performance---fascinating!

leitmotiv
10-24-2006, 05:24 AM
IN PURSUIT arrived yesterday, Bearcat---truly superb. Watch out world!

leitmotiv
10-24-2006, 05:33 AM
Just ordered Carson's PURSUE AND DESTROY from Amazon (used copy).

luftluuver
10-24-2006, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
LOL.. I remember a few years ago when FB first came out I posted his assessment of the Mustang in here and it caused a near meltdown......... Can we expect another? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I remember seeing a rebuttal somewhere on the net to Carson's article.

Blutarski2004
10-24-2006, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
I remember seeing a rebuttal somewhere on the net to Carson's article.


..... You probably stumbled upon Kurfurst's website or article. As I recall, the uproar was not so much about Carson's assessment of the Mustang as is was about his less than enthusiastic appraisal of the 109. Kurfurst took both umbrage and issue with Carson's remarks. I suggest that you read both yourself and draw your own conclusions. When you do so, keep in mind that Carson was not only a fighter pilot, but also held a degree in aeronautical engineering.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

BLUTARSKI

leitmotiv
10-24-2006, 07:35 AM
This piece is the most lucid and intelligent critique of the 109G I've read. I am sure some German pilots would hotly debate some of Carson's findings, but I doubt if they would be able to refute the facts upon which he draws his conclusions. The species can get used to most anything, and, without doubt, some outstanding German pilots learned to compensate for the 109's drawbacks. The point really is: given all of its problems, no wonder the poorly trained pilots of 1944 and 1945 found it a handful. It was, without a doubt, a very bad aircraft for the pilots available at the time.

Brain32
10-24-2006, 08:08 AM
Hehe some of the 109 comments are really funny if you can use your own head http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
BTW did HE even EVER flew ANY 109?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

This is my sig http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Blutarski2004
10-24-2006, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
Hehe some of the 109 comments are really funny if you can use your own head http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
BTW did HE even EVER flew ANY 109?


..... I honestly don't know whether Carson test flew a 109 or not. But it really doesn't make a difference to the Ubizoo community. This is how it works here:

(1) If Carson did not fly a 109, then he doesn't know what he's talking about because he has never taken taken to the air in a 109.

(2) If Carson did fly a 109, then either he was not properly checked out in the a/c, or the a/c was tired, or not the same variant, or out of tune, or improperly rigged, or damaged, or shoddily repaired, or any combination thereof.

That's what makes it so woderful around here.

As I recall an otherwise well-respected GERMAN aero engineer from the WW2 era did a paper on the drag characteristics of the 109G, which he felt were relatively poor, but it turned out that he didn't know anything either.

It all makes me wonder why these fellows bother to study aeronautical engineering at all. They are all discovered to be such morons after their work is dissected here on the Ubizoo IL2 forums.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

BLUTARSKI

luftluuver
10-24-2006, 09:36 AM
Blutarski, no it was not Kurfurst's site. It was to well written (in comparison) to be by him. No doubt he would save it the since it pees on his god, the 109.

F6_Ace
10-24-2006, 09:37 AM
That mentality works both ways, though, Blutarski....and always has on these forums.

I know - I've even done it myself but I just can't be a*sed anymore.

At the end of the day, though, while they are engineers (and being one I know that we debate a lot of stuff at work on which 'way' is best to do things), they only present opinions.

Informed opinions, though.

Blutarski2004
10-24-2006, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
That mentality works both ways, though, Blutarski....and always has on these forums.

I know - I've even done it myself but I just can't be a*sed anymore.

At the end of the day, though, while they are engineers (and being one I know that we debate a lot of stuff at work on which 'way' is best to do things), they only present opinions.

Informed opinions, though.



..... No argument there.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

BLUTARSKI

mynameisroland
10-24-2006, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F6_Ace:
HayateAce is getting a bit grouchy - sounds like his doll-friend may have developed a puncture.

HA doesn't need a doll. He has his gimp, AKA BillyTheKid. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Faustnik you got it wrong, HillBillYTheKid is the name of his doll and his alter forum ID.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y294/mynameisroland/Newsig3.jpg

joeap
10-24-2006, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F6_Ace:
HayateAce is getting a bit grouchy - sounds like his doll-friend may have developed a puncture.

HA doesn't need a doll. He has his gimp, AKA BillyTheKid. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Faustnik you got it wrong, HillBillYTheKid is the name of his doll and his alter forum ID. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is against the rules isn't it? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Aaron_GT
10-24-2006, 03:04 PM
The strangest thing about the Caron article is his division of major changes to the 109, which seem to be roughly the B&C, D, E, and G. I.e. he seems not to note the existence of the F model and the beneifical changes made, and seems to indicate that the changes made from E to G were all negative. This is very odd.

On other points Carson's article is not so far off (probably some details here and there, but what the hey), but the above is somewhat odd.

anarchy52
10-24-2006, 03:53 PM
I found the article in question in my archive, since the original is not available any more. I've cleaned the horrible HTML and removed the javascript, but left the text unchanged.
http://marvin.kset.org/~riddler/Carson.html (http://marvin.kset.org/%7Eriddler/Carson.html)

Frequent_Flyer
10-24-2006, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by joeap:
Thanks to Ploughman.

Best of Breed (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/2072/breed.html)

Look at this:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Fw 190A
General Characteristics:
A superb airplane, every inch a fighter. It could do a half roll at cruising speed in one second. Taking this in conjunction with the airplane's high top speed and rate of climb one expected its pilots to exploit its high speed qualities to the fullest without staying in there to "mix it up" in a low speed, flaps down full throttle, gut-wrenching dog fight.
They did. The 190 pilots had a good airplane and some good advice. Nearly all of my encounters with the 190 were at high speeds. On at least two occasions when I met them, my Mustang started porposing, which means I was into compressibility, probably around 550 mph. I don't know what my air speed indicator was reading, I wasn't watching it.

Hmmm our winers like Peeper and Hisha*ace say to that? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I need charts and graphs this is purely speculative and nothing more than antedotal. At what point did his wings come off was he looking at his air speed indicator? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

*****************************"Hitler Built A Fortress Around Europe,But He Forgot to Put A Roof On It" ~ FDR

AKA_TAGERT
10-24-2006, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
..... I honestly don't know whether Carson test flew a 109 or not. But it really doesn't make a difference to the Ubizoo community. This is how it works here:

(1) If Carson did not fly a 109, then he doesn't know what he's talking about because he has never taken taken to the air in a 109.

(2) If Carson did fly a 109, then either he was not properly checked out in the a/c, or the a/c was tired, or not the same variant, or out of tune, or improperly rigged, or damaged, or shoddily repaired, or any combination thereof.

That's what makes it so woderful around here.
Good point and spot on!


Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
As I recall an otherwise well-respected GERMAN aero engineer from the WW2 era did a paper on the drag characteristics of the 109G, which he felt were relatively poor, but it turned out that he didn't know anything either.

It all makes me wonder why these fellows bother to study aeronautical engineering at all. They are all discovered to be such morons after their work is dissected here on the Ubizoo IL2 forums. LOL! Exactally!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

************************************************** **
IF WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER.. THAN WHAT THE H IS YOUR QUESTION?
************************************************** **

LStarosta
10-24-2006, 07:25 PM
It's clear that the Colonel knew his shyt.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

_____________________________
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But another household work, the highly propagandized Me 109G, was obsolete when it was built and was aerodynamically the most inefficient fighter of its time. It was a hopeless collection of lumps, bumps, stiff controls, and placed its pilot in a cramped, squarish cockpit with poor visibility.
-- Col. Carson, USAF


<A HREF="http://www.air-source.us/operations/logbooks/LOGFLIGHTS.asp?PILNO=450" TARGET=_blank>http://www.air-source.us/images/Ribbons/AAS.gif
</A>

BfHeFwMe
10-24-2006, 09:42 PM
He was also a brilliant tactician, 8th fighter command had him set up the first Clobber College special tactics and training center for his fighter group. His was the prototype for every other fighter group in the 8th which soon followed with it's success. These centers shared intel and tactics development information, plus instructed noobly arrived pilots in further advanced combat tactics.

More than likely he had access to enemy hardware in such a position. This guy ate Fw-190's for breakfast and 109's for treats. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif Be sure. <img src="http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/

MEGILE
10-25-2006, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
Hehe some of the 109 comments are really funny if you can use your own head http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
BTW did HE even EVER flew ANY 109?


..... I honestly don't know whether Carson test flew a 109 or not. But it really doesn't make a difference to the Ubizoo community. This is how it works here:

(1) If Carson did not fly a 109, then he doesn't know what he's talking about because he has never taken taken to the air in a 109.

(2) If Carson did fly a 109, then either he was not properly checked out in the a/c, or the a/c was tired, or not the same variant, or out of tune, or improperly rigged, or damaged, or shoddily repaired, or any combination thereof.

That's what makes it so woderful around here.

As I recall an otherwise well-respected GERMAN aero engineer from the WW2 era did a paper on the drag characteristics of the 109G, which he felt were relatively poor, but it turned out that he didn't know anything either.

It all makes me wonder why these fellows bother to study aeronautical engineering at all. They are all discovered to be such morons after their work is dissected here on the Ubizoo IL2 forums. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you're agreeing his opinion is largely irrelevant?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Blutarski2004
10-25-2006, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
Hehe some of the 109 comments are really funny if you can use your own head http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
BTW did HE even EVER flew ANY 109?


..... I honestly don't know whether Carson test flew a 109 or not. But it really doesn't make a difference to the Ubizoo community. This is how it works here:

(1) If Carson did not fly a 109, then he doesn't know what he's talking about because he has never taken taken to the air in a 109.

(2) If Carson did fly a 109, then either he was not properly checked out in the a/c, or the a/c was tired, or not the same variant, or out of tune, or improperly rigged, or damaged, or shoddily repaired, or any combination thereof.

That's what makes it so woderful around here.

As I recall an otherwise well-respected GERMAN aero engineer from the WW2 era did a paper on the drag characteristics of the 109G, which he felt were relatively poor, but it turned out that he didn't know anything either.

It all makes me wonder why these fellows bother to study aeronautical engineering at all. They are all discovered to be such morons after their work is dissected here on the Ubizoo IL2 forums. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you're agreeing his opinion is largely irrelevant?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Of course. This is the Ubi Forum, is it not??

;-]<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

BLUTARSKI

leitmotiv
10-25-2006, 07:28 AM
"Ubizoo", well stated, BLUTARSKI. Alas, with notable and rare exceptions, you included, these forums are on the intellectual level of a brain-damaged, scatologically-obsessed six-yr-old with delusions of grandeur combined with the insight of a dead yak---this on a good day!!!!

LStarosta
10-25-2006, 07:40 AM
You are too kind!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

_____________________________
http://badge.facebook.com/badge/2352799.521.115268350.png (http://msu.facebook.com/profile.php?id=2352799)

But another household work, the highly propagandized Me 109G, was obsolete when it was built and was aerodynamically the most inefficient fighter of its time. It was a hopeless collection of lumps, bumps, stiff controls, and placed its pilot in a cramped, squarish cockpit with poor visibility.
-- Col. Carson, USAF


<A HREF="http://www.air-source.us/operations/logbooks/LOGFLIGHTS.asp?PILNO=450" TARGET=_blank>http://www.air-source.us/images/Ribbons/AAS.gif
</A>

leitmotiv
10-25-2006, 07:43 AM
I know, it's just my sentimental nature. Another exception, LStarosta!